I like adventure, but this is almost too much. Not so much of an installation nightmare as a bidding nightmare, but I'm supposed to have my bid complete tomorrow. I decided to solicite some opinions from all of you.
I got a very unusual job coming my way from a repeat customer. The customer is the State of Hawaii, & I have a very good chance of getting this job if I want it. The signs, as shown at right below are a fairly straightforward aluminum screenprinting job. The message is a little different, but the kicker is the install.
The island of Kahoolawe, which is about 12 miles across is a danger zone due to unexploded bombs. I'm no history expert, so I'll quote a brief passage for those interested:
quote: In 1898, when the United States annexed the islands, the federal government took over 200,000 acres of Hawaiian crown lands, including the 28,776 acres of Kahoolawe. During World War II, the military used the uninhabited island as a shelling range. After the war, the island was turned over to the Navy, which used it for training activities, live-fire naval shelling, practice bombing runs & combined air-sea-and-amphibious operations.
... there's the danger posed by 50 years of shells and bombs dropped on the island, some of which remain unexploded!
So, my mission, should I choose to accept it, would be to meet a chopper with my 42 signs, u-channel posts, hardware, tools, food & water. After the short filght from Maui, a basket would be lowered at each location with my tools & materials. The chopper does not land. I jump off.
The map above is covered with arrows showing how the signs are spread out over the entire island. Due to the dangers I would be brought to each site with an explosives expert who would use metal detection equipment to verify safety from the landing zone to the sign location. I would dig to a specific depth whereupon I would allow the explosives guy to take another reading before continuing to dig.
Travel by land from one site to the next is not safe, so each sign location would be another helicopter trip.
I told them I could not bid this job without a thorough site inspection to evaluate soil conditions, & the logistics include too many variables out of my control to have any reasonable idea how much time will be involved. They agreed that I can provide a hourly, or per-day rate of pay for this portion of the bid.
If this were just sticking vinyl graphics up in a hotel, I have worked happily for $300/day based on several days work. My rate in the shop is $60/hr. but I rarely actually put out more then 5 billable hours in an 8 hour period anyway.
Question is with all the various DANGER involved...
What would you charge
Posted by Peter Schuttinga (Member # 2821) on :
just a suggestion, why not use concrete blocks/pylons to attach the sign posts to. This way you only have to place the signs, or dig a shallow hole which should not take long. I'm assuming no one lives there, and no one would take the signs.
added: I'd be careful on this job, cause it could literraly cost you an arm and a leg
[ September 04, 2003, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Peter Schuttinga ]
Posted by Joe Endicott (Member # 628) on :
Sounds like fun.
That's a tough question.
Maybe double your rate.
I would be nervous though, seems to me that if the state can send in a bomb sniffer with you, why won't they just send him in with a PHD to finish the job? Maybe he knows better than to go slammin' those things into the ground, eh?
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Just looking at the topographical map suggests that this island is very likley volcanic in origin, which may also present a whole lot of problems in digging. How long would it take you to dig a hole of the required depth, into volcanic rock? Probably a lot more than you'd normally figure on, especially if the topsoil layer is thin. Perhaps there's more merit in Peter's suggestion of setting these signs into a concrete base and placing them directly onto the surface.Unexploded ordinance is life-threatening as an unmapped minefield. I'd pass. No amount of money is worth getting blown to smithereens.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Peter, you are right, no one lives there. Joe, I kind of asked the same question, about the state doing the complete install. They want to compare my numbers to theirs. So I may not get this job (as with any bid)but I know several people who work on the crews that have been working to remove the UEO's (unexploded ordininces)over the last several years & it is an ongoing job site for many people, so I fell some level of confidence that there detection methods are tried & true. Their "sniffer" will be right there where I'm digging, so I don't think its about passing a greater risk to me. I would think the detection guys make big bucks holding a metal detector, & digging holes just aint in their job description. John, it most certainly is volcanic, as is the entire Hawaiian island chain. It is also very dry (25 inches of rain per year) & has very little vegetation, so I am sure the "soil" conditions will not be ideal by any means, though some of them may be in very sandy regions because they are all around the perimeter. I think the day-rate does make the field condition question a little less significant. I'm sure this will not happen in a day or 2, or 3... I could bring a gasoline driven auger if it would help.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Here are a few links to information on the vacation resort of Kahoolawe:
Doug, maybe you can try the old Tom Sawyer “paint the fence” approach and convince that ordnance expert sent with you that he would be most privileged to drill the holes himself while you suffered in the helicopter.
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Seems like it would be easier for you to teach the bomb expert to install a sign than for them to teach you to stay away from exposives......Let them install the signs.
What kind of state puts it's citizens in this kind of danger?
..too much maui waui....
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Time and material bid....... no question about it..
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
You could include the cost of a suplimental life insurance policy in that bid too.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote: Time and material bid....... no question about it..
yes, but "time" at what rate? My wife agrees with the life insurance idea! Actually she pretty well veto'd the whole thing... wel, lets just say she pushed the price up to where she probably won't be hearing about it again Posted by Stephen Broughton (Member # 2237) on :
I had to check the date on reading this one, thought it was april 1st, Doug I'd make the US military do this one, they made the mess in the first place .
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Doug, This would definitely be a job that would qualify for hazard pay! I would quote a price that would cover all your added insurance premiums needed for this job & cover a month off after the experience. Rather than chance getting out of the chopper, I would make the signs aerodynamic and three sided so they're visible from all sides. Then, get the helicopter up high enough so all you have to do is drop the sign out the door and they'll stick in the ground without any need to dig holes.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Tony Potter (Member # 1199) on :
Heh, they have a guestimate on how much the government would charge... haha, I bet that is a tad more than your 60 to 120 an hr.
...and considering how much they are paying for the copter and experts and such... it is not something you are going to make a small dent in if you think of charging small.
I would do it, sounds pretty exciting, but charge them what the government would...
If I were to bid on that, I would say minimum 500(not knowing the difficulty of digging)to 750 per sign. They will not baulk at that at all I would not think. And take you a tool to dig the holes and charge that to them as well, that is what they do and they will understand totally.
... but that is just me.
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Buy an auger, triple your normal rate and take your time.
Posted by Mark Smith (Member # 298) on :
Doug, I just have to say... as dangerous as it could be... that sounds FUN! Good luck and take pictures.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
It does sound a lot of fun! I've enjoyed dreaming about getting past the nightmare & making some extra good money...
...but last night I promised my wife to opt out. ahh yes, another unforeseen price to matrimony.
I will bid the signs & hopefully not alienate the client by refusing to consider the install. I thought of submitting an extremely high price with a disclaimer that my safety concerns would need to be addressed further in detail before final acceptance. The theory being that if they like my price, I can still get into a much more detailed discussion of the risks involved, & maybe sub out the work, after some extensive research on my companies liability in such an instance.
Posted by John Byrd (Member # 825) on :
izzat how they spell KA-POW in Hawaii?
( sorry )
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
And I thought wierd things happened to me! This has got to be the most bizzare sign job I've ever heard of.
If somehow you did do the install, be sure to use it as a way to promote your shop... ISLAND SIGN: WE CAN HANDLE IT!
What about "T- posts"? ( Agricultural fence posts made of steel, driven in with a cheap driver tool.)
Even if you lived through it, it might take a few years off your life just from stress. And if the island is uninhabited, why the signs? Curious boat owners? It sounds like you would survive, but what are the odds? How many of their people have been disassembled on that island?
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
Doug!
It's an adventure man! You GOTTA do it! So you can tell us all about it.
Charge what your wife wants to & I bet you'll still get it. I got a feelin'!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Yeah, she woke up this morning and asked what I had been planning to charge...
I spoke to the contact person about my safety concerns & was informed that the detection equipment has been used for many years of workers scouring the island to rid it of these UXO's & there has not been a single mishap yet.
I will submit my bid & see what comes of it. It was agreed that I can do additional safety analysis following an award of the contract, before accepting it, rather then doing all that research now on spec.
Posted by pcbytes (Member # 1444) on :
I would think you should be very safe doing this job but you probably want to go out and finish the job as fast as you can with the lest amount of hassle. You should stipulate in your contract that if the location they picked was not acceptable that you and your safety person have final choice within reason to move to another location or not install by digging unless they dig the hole.
Also I am suprised they do not have civil engineers or military capable of doing the install I would think they may back out of the deal once you submit a bid with your extra insurance cost factored in. The government does not have insurance they just have deep pockets and they could use this as a training exercise.
Also I hope the guy they supply for explosive detection is good at what he does. Maybe count his fingers if he has some missing get someone else.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Get their tech one of those T shirts that reads:
BOMB SQUAD If you see me running, try to keep up!
Posted by Ron Carper (Member # 999) on :
Sounds cool!!! If you don't want to do it, I will
Posted by Mark Yearwood (Member # 2723) on :
Sounds like a blast to me! (sorry, Doug. I had to say it!) Charge 'em a heck of alot of money. If you get this and pull it off you will be able to handle anything.
Posted by VICTORGEORGIOU (Member # 474) on :
Doug, you have quite a decision to make.
First, I doubt that you have to worry about most larger companies bidding because they don't want the lawsuits if the worst case happens. Imagine what the workman's comp carrier would say if they knew.
Personally I don't think the risk is all that great when you are following the minesweeper, but you still need a markup for whatever risk there is. There's a greater likelihood you will hurt yourself getting in and out of the helicopter. Your real risk is, you will break a leg and be unable to work for six weeks.
Roofers here pay a workmans comp rate that can be as high as 80 cents for every dollar of salary. You can't hire a roofer for much less than $90 an hour so that is a bottom benchmark.
I think I would ask for $1000 - $1200 per eight hour day billed in increments of four hours. Clock starts and ends at the gate depending on the red tape to get in and out.
Beware of fatigue. Injuries happen when you are tired.
Let us know how it comes out. This is interesting. Vic G
Posted by bill riedel (Member # 607) on :
Doug, I wish you the best in your decision. The temptation is great to make a big buck for a change. Just be extra careful.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Hey doug,
I'd do it I'd triple my shop rate and def take lots of pictures. Man thats cool
Oh just in case you have a ummm accident I can ready to fly to Hawaii in 15 minutes to help you run your shop hahaha
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
OK, the wife is still nervous, so I'm still un-committed but we agreed that Island Sign should submit a bid with an escape clause. If they accept my rate (it's triple the norm, but I'm telling them it's double)then I can gather more info, sweet-talk the wife, or look for a liability-free way to sub it out. Hey Ron Carper... it'll be in November... warmer then PA!
Thanks for all the comments, this is what I came up with:
quote:install 18" x 24" x .080 alum. signs & 10' x 2" sq. galv. posts at prescribed locations on the island of Kaho'olawe. Installation heights & specifications will be performed as determined by KIRC on a site specific basis. Sign, post & bolt set material costs are shown on estimate No. 1788
The labor rate shown here is for time from meeting helicopter for departure from Maui until returning to Maui. In the event that Concrete is required for securing signpost in ground, additional material costs will apply. Installation method will be to dig holes approx. 24" deep, place signpost, replace rock & soil in hole , & tamp down. If necessary, quickcrete, water & bucket will be included with delivery of sign tools & materials.
Transportation will be provided from Maui to Kaho'olawe & back for all tools, materials, one installer, & if extreme soil conditions require, one assistant.
Prior to acceptance of an award of this installation contract, Island Sign requests an in-depth consultation regarding details on the State's role in providing explosive detection personnel, & any safety protocols in place, a risk assessment briefing as well as an understanding of liability & responsibility determinations to assist in my establishing any additional personal insurance coverage as may be deemed necessary based on the above factors.
Due to the perceived risks involved as well as time consuming logistics off the clock, the following is double our normal shop rate. Island Sign's installation rate for this work described above will be $150/hour for minimum of 4 hours per day. Island Sign will be closed on days work is performed on Kaho'olawe, & will be available for up to 6 hours on any day work is done on this contract unless weather, or transportation logistics dictate otherwise. 8 hour days may also be acceptable based in part on field conditions.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Doug, are you sure only 2 ft deep is enough for a 10 ft long post? I'd hate to have them come back after a few have blown over and expect you to right them at your own expense.
What about some kind of guarantee-escape clause so in the event of a fall-over/ albatros or pelican crash/ storm upset, you aren't responsible for the fix?
Good luck!
PS I still prefer the idea, not so much a joke, of making them like a dart and dropping them down from some height.
(edited with the PS - some good lateral (vertical?) thinking )
[ September 05, 2003, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Ian Stewart-Koster ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
no, I really don't think 2' is enough, but it's so difficult to plan something without seeing it, & they don't even say how high they want the signs... just that the specs incl. ht. will be determined on a site-specific basis. I think concrete will be needed in many cases, but since they didn't call it out I left it off my totals, since there will be another bidder. If I wrote 3' I might regret it later... but if 2' requires concrete, they pay more... I dig less.
If I get as far as a consultation with these folks, after a bid award, I will discuss all options incl yours.
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Doug I'd make the US military do this one, they made the mess in the first place ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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ahh yes, another unforeseen price to matrimony.