As I know, many of you are a HOME BASED BUSINESS and like to keep it that way. I am too but, am wondering about those of you that made the move to a bay. When did you know it was time to make the move and what kind of $$$$$$ difference did you see when you were able to put your OWN SIGN on your building and allow the customer to walk in on their own will rather than walking into HIS BUSINESS and tieing up HIS TIME to sell him YOUR SIGNAGE?
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
A move from HOME-BASED to a separate shop means added overhead. Let's say it costs you $1000 a month for the building, insurance, utilities, etc. This means you have to take in twice that to end up with enough 'bottom line' to pay the additional bills. That's an additional income of $2000 you MUST take in to make the same as you're making now! I'm just a one-man biz at home. I don't want to work that hard!
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
I gotta agree with the Ol'Geezer!
Why bust my butt to earn $$ for a landlord, insurance agent, power company, etc??
Been home based for 36 years and love it!
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Yeah, what they(the other two old geezers previously) said !!! I wouldn't go back to a "shop" for love or money. Quite happy at home shop, and if you are careful, plenty of exposed signage to show off talent to those passing by. A satelite shop will cost you big, and that, like burns related to, will equate to higher nut to crack on a monthly basis. If you're a safety minded type and not a big mouth (staying under the radar), you'll do better out of home. I have found that people trust you more automatically, because you have your home at stake and feel you won't be of a threat to them. Good luck in your trials.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Exactly what the other old geezers said. Just another old geezer----and radar doesn't play into it. Sorry, Frank.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
i've always been mobile but have a part time shop if need be, plus my home shop. Being mobile is great cause I get to keep so much more bucks and ya get to meet so many nice persons like Magoo in your travels, hehehe.
Keep it profitable and if ya need more business, hit the streets!
[ August 07, 2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Joey Madden ]
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
Reason for the question...
Been in the home (& love it) for 3 years now but, have moved from the culdisac at the bottom of the stairs 1 1/2 years ago into my Daughters old play room (twice the size) and now I am starting to feel more and more cramped (taking on bigger jobs and more work). I am feeling like my space isn't big enough at times and my garage is a fikkin pillbox (or feels smaller and smaller). How do you continue to work out of the home when you feel the need to double your size (at times)? A bay would spark more business since more people would eventually know where you are and what you do. I would have plenty of room to build counters and tables and such to decrease production time. I dread the thought of taking on an employee but I also feel like I could use one at times (I remember how many jobs I fikked up when I was a newbie though). Oh, decisions, decisions........
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
It could go either way..
Some people need a place to go to every day to give them structure or "force" them to work.
I personally like the freedom of working from home, I can take off in the middle of the day without worrying if I'm going to miss someone.
It also irks me to no end when I make it a point to run down to a local business in a retail or industrial area, and their door is locked cause they're a one person show and had to run an errand. If yer gonna open shop, be there and open all day during your posted hours! If not, hire a helper to man the door.
On another hand.. if you don't have the space at home it's understandable. Sometimes coating out boards in the backyard just isn't feasible.
You do have to be careful though... if you work from home, price your work as if you were working from a shop. You'll take in the same amount but you'll put more in YOUR pocket. Don't let the lower overhead make you think you should charge less.
I've thought about opening up a shop seperate from my house, but unless I was just the owner and had no involvement in the work, but had staff I could trust to do everything, it just wouldn't work for me. I can't stand being stuck anywhere all day.
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Oops, sorry, didn't mean to sound mean, just a term to suggest staying in a low-profile position for the benefit of local authorities. No since expposing yourself is all I meant, city officals have a "shop" to go to everyday and might look upon your operation in a negative light and proceed to make your life miserable. Didn't mean to come off beverlyistic, forgiven? thanx...magoo
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i am also home based and wouldn't change it! is it possible to build a workshop on your property? i used to work in my basement in my former tiny house...i pumped out alot of work in the little space and didn't have a garage to letter vehicles in...which never was too big a problem because most of the customers either had a garage or i did it in my yard. now i have an oversized 2 car garage and the upstairs also...it's getting small fast. the next step is a big building down the driveway...in a few years. if at all possible keep the $ in your own pocket helping pay for the equity of your estate.
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Oops, sorry, didn't mean to sound mean, just a term to suggest staying in a low-profile position for the benefit of local authorities. No since expposing yourself is all I meant, city officals have a "shop" to go to everyday and might look upon your operation in a negative light and proceed to make your life miserable. Didn't mean to come off beverlyistic, forgiven? thanx...magoo
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Frank---nothing negative taken---I was thinking more in terms of the tax man's radar. I know this could generate some heat, but I don't really like to do cash, no receipt. It aint honesty as much as fear, and I don't like lookin' over my shoulder to see who, or what, is gaining on me.
Maybe put another way---I'd rather pay the taxes, and have the paperwork to back up the biz, and not have to worry. Just my take on it, is all.
Besides, to build on Corey's original question; going to a separate workspace does involve added overhead, and adding an employee will add big time. Besides his/her pay, there is workman's comp., unemployment insurance, maybe health insurance, and who knows what else. Will the business generate enough revenue to cover all these added costs, or is just going to be one big headache?
FWIW
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
If you can't add onto your home or yard, moving out is your only option to expand your space.
Renting outside the home can be a great deal if you find the right price and location. I kept my overhead extremely low in my last storefront - I rented the office from a body shop for $400/mo, and got free use of their 15,000 sq ft heated bay space for free when needed. I had a huge rig in there overnight one time, can't do that in any garage.
At another location, I shared the shop with another business, detailing. It worked well together and slashed our expenses in half.
Moving home was actually more expensive for me because I was forced to renovate a loft above the garage to make it usable. (use to be a hayloft) Our home was waaaay too small to accomodate a shop. I obviously didn't do it for the funds, it was a family need for me.
If you're anything like me, you may have to try the moving out of the home part just so you know. Take on a short lease, give it a go and you'll know soon enough if it's for you. Nothing has to be forever.
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
Are you in Business?.... or a artisan making a living. For 5 short years I worked from a 4000 s.f. shop with 3 full time employees and 2 subs. I made a pile of money and loved it.
The last 3 years I've been back to a home based opperation. I'd take on that old shop and crew again any day. You have to run it like a business and be firm about profit, hours of opperation and so on.
What are you really looking for and are you ready to take on the new challenge?
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Corey,,,
DON"T DO IT.. Stay at Home... Make more Money for yourself.. Keep overhead low and you enjoy life so much more.. From Personal Exp.. Ran a 13 man shop what a nightmare.. I wasn't a sign person I was an Underpaid Babysitter.. Best thing that ever happend was someone bought us out... Now one man doing a totaly different style of signage and and Moving back to Colorado and building a new shop in the Back yard... Yaaaa 1000sqft to do whatever I want with.. Sorry got a little over exerburant there. Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Thanx Bill.....I like you NEVER mess w/irs. Pay and relax....you don't need their brand of action. Honestity is the only defense. Wise words, thanx agin.....magoo
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Corey...Home based here... But I am out in the country and have a fairly large shop to work out of for the small vehicle lettering, cutting and painting of MDO, banner work etc.
All my computer work, including cutting, weeding and masking is done in the clean environment of the house.
I agree with Karyn...If you can swing building a shop on your property, THATS the way to go!!! It adds to the value of your ranch.
ALSO...If you were to go the way of a "bay" or a storefront, how would you handle off-site sign installs and large truck and trailer work?? Who would be at the "shop" to deal with walk-in trade?
Customers don't expect home-based business people to be available 9-5/5 days a week. They accept that you will be away on jobs. People expect "stores" to be open regular hours.
Posted by Gail & Dave Beattie (Member # 572) on :
at some point it does come down to exposure
we have over the years done both.. worked from home and had shop fronts
they both have their advantages but as i read corey's post the line that struck me was
quote: When did you know it was time to make the move
for us it was when the time spent borrowing/renting more space happened more than not
the move is always terrifying, the extra money in setup alone is enough to scare the living daylights out of you
building those cabinets and benches corey mentiond, costs a heap too, not to mention the down time when you are moving and fitting out the new place
i'm sure most of the folk on this board will tell you how much money it costs in lost revenue alone while you are playing builder and shopfitter instead of signmaker
but... the day it all comes together is when folk start walking in the door of a real shop and giving you orders that you didn't even know where out there
when folk realise you can do the work, they just didn't know it
when they accept that you are very busy... cause you run a business and can't talk to them all day
when all of a sudden other business folk take you seriously cause your not a backyarder
i truley don't mean any disrespect by that comment but my country is different and so i can only speak for this place
here signwriters have done apprenticeships to become tradesmen and so the whole 'backyarder signmaker' is seen in a diferent light there is a whole feeling of 'buy a computer and your an istant signmaker' without having earn't the right. I know that isn't the case... and I also know that we all start somewhere
but as I said I can only speak for this place and the hipocracy here is that the moment you open a 'real' shop that idea goes straight out of peoples minds
we have been very lucky with our shopfronts they have been on main roads and the walk-in customers were all but instant
but there are, as has already been mentioned 2 lots of everything you pay out now to consider
some times working smarter and not harder is the best way to go and so when we moved to this new state, we got a tiny little house and filled the rest of the yard up with a shed
i am starting all over again, getting known in this eara for the work i do and doing so from 15 mins out of town from a 'no thru road'.
that means it's slow to build up a trade because each job has to sell more of the same kinda work... not folk walking in and asking if you can do 'such n such'
corey if you need the room then you have to do something if that something means you are not able to expand your business from your present address then you either don't take on the bigger jobs, or you find another place to do them from
i am enjoying being home based at the moment and after more than half my life spent in this game the only thing i miss about being in a shop is that, at knock off time i can't lock the doors and walk away completely
by the same token i enjoy that fact that if i feel like it i can go out into the shed... or my office in the middle of the night and play, knowing that when i get tired i am only a few steps from my bed!
i hope you find the best place for your business to grow, good luck
cheers gail
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
Al Lorio, the sign guy I work for, sort of has the best of both worlds. In the eighties, he & family bought an acre of cheap property that he but his shop on.
Years later he built his house in front of the shop (a VERY nice house too).
The location now has lots of traffic & Al want's to move out to the country, so in the future he plans to make this home/shop a dedicated sign/design location & live in a different place.
I don't know if he'll ever really do it.... but it sounds good.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
When I was young I thought "Big" and as I grew older I work "Small". Not in the work itself, But the amount of money to produce the projects.
"Lime Light" shops are great as long as you are willing to expand with overheads......... IE: Employees! Posted by Dwayne Hunter (Member # 133) on :
Corey,
Posted by Dwayne Hunter (Member # 133) on :
Corey, like you, I started out at home in a pill box. Actually, I used a two bay garage my father built for five years while I tried to build a name, along with the basement of their house as I purchased more and more computer equipment. Six years ago, I decided I was tired of the drop-in customers, the driveway always being blocked, constantly moving and rearranging projects so overspray, dust or other contaminants didn't fall on them. However, six years ago, I felt like I had no reputation or near large enough a clientele.
So I moved to a relatively affordable shop in town: 4000 sq ft (for $1100 per month), large parking lot, 14 ft door on one bay, a paint booth, plenty of storage. For the past six years, I've worked at building a great customer base, a good reputation and making a good profit. But after 6 years, I'm looking for a house with a large enough basement, enough land and enough privacy so that I return to a home-based operation.
WHY? The overhead eats almost ALL your profit. Unless you can really build a HUGE clientele (and plenty of em' with deep pockets) and then hire enough employees to turn the work out fast, a one-person shop will make just enough to feed the bill-monster. Over the past six years, I've tried everything: Raising prices, lowering prices, working all kinds of hours and schedules. It all helps depending on the economy and what type of customers you are focusing on, but you will always just go 'just so far'.
BOTTOM LINE: if you are going to remain a one-person shop, stay at home. Don't have enough room at home?? Work on finding a new home!!! It will take time, but in the long run, the money you keep in your pockets will outweigh the growth of your clientele.
If you are going to hire employees, focus on marketing, accounting and all the other necessary evils of business, get a shop. Bigger than you want or need, because you will grow into it. I can't say I screwed up entirely moving into my shop. I know more specifically what I HAVE to have: how big a spray booth, how much parking, how much storage, what the public needs to see and what needs to be hidden from them. I just didn't GROW as much as I anticipated, because I didn't want to relinquish total control of my projects. I may let someone else spray some colors, but I still can't let go of that brush...
Good luck with whichever you decide...
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Corey,
The reason we were home based for 20 years was to raise 5 kids. We got by. We saved money. On the other hand I lost the upscale sign markets. I got the cheapos who came to me BECAUSE I just looked like a "hobby" business.
The kids are older. I joined BNI, a business referral organization. I was now meeting weekly with other businesses that were making their way in store front settings. I learned from them that I have two products: 1: my sign work and 2: a business that I could sell ( if it was structured properly and exact formulas or step by step menus were created for every market we dabble in so the new owners could step in and make money from day 1)
My wife and I talked it over as we were losing more and more work to franchise shops. Clients didn't want to come to my house any longer. They wanted to pull up to a store front and place an order. We realized the majority of sign work is fast and cheap and in that there is a huge market.
We wanted to be able to fill that need, but also offer the high end work that the franchise shop couldn't do. We also saw the need to build monument signage, which the city would not allow us to do from a residential area.
So we made the move and then moved again. Location is KEY.
The walk in traffic we get from just being visable and in a very nice industrial park has more than paid for the shop lease. One business in the park, a business that sells safety equipment across the country, started using us to make quick little plastic signs and stickers that were not in the BRADY sign catalog. Every month we have at least a $500.00 order from them...which is half the rent. We print these on the Gerber Edge. They were not about to do work with us until they toured our shop and seen the creative way we decorated the office and work areas. They told me I would have never got this work as a home based business.
And becasue so much is at stake, I work smarter now, and constantly seek out new clients, which I never did when home based. Trade shows, Chamber before and after hours, BNI meetings...golf? Golf is next...that is the only way you can get past the office Nazi's and talk to the key people who have the authority to buy.
Make sure your wife and family are involved in the an out of the house business, or you may never see them. My wife and kids help out so its still like the home base setting...just 2 miles down the road.
Sorry for the long winded post...its Saturday, and I still have to install a sign tonight with the kids help. then we eat out!
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Our business is somewhat different than most here... and by all rights belongs in an industrial area. But our solution to the same dillema you face was unique as our business.
I sure don't like the idea of commuting to work, even 10 minutes.
Lately our work load has increased greatly and it was high time to get into some proper workspace. I checked out the local industrial areas and found it was going to cost me $2000 minimum per month to operate there with the space I needed.
I wanted an awesome space to work from which reflected the high end work we do. It had to be themed to the maximum possible. Customers who come to the shop had to be absolutely WOWed with what they saw. A square box in an industrial area simply wouldn't do all these things as well as keep me close to home.
We decided to relocate to small acreage & build the shop of our dreams on the same property as our house. The payments will be much less than what the rent was going to be in an industrial area and we will own it. Our business is located on the main drag of a small town, only one block from the very center of the business district -very easy to find. Once we are completed the entire property will be a landmark in our unique style to be sure!
The walk to work is only 180 feet. The shop will be an incredible space with lots of parking and storage for our trailers, nice landscaping and a view to kill for. The place is real quiet with larger acreages all around so I won't be bothering the neighbors either.
Perfect solution for us!
Good luck in your business and your search for your solution.
-dan
[ August 10, 2003, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Corey I feel your pain LOL.
Thank God you don't have to run up to a third floor apt. I have a great location but the only yard I have (renting here) is the gravel under my van when I'm home. Most work that I do, is on location if it can't be wrastled up a very long stairwell with cinder block walls and cement stairs...cut short front to back I might add.
I really hate running laps up and down the stairs with my thinner bucket, sign kit, crates of paint and rolling table. I keep a ladder in my van and a rolling chair that will allow me to hydralically adjust to different eye levels above what a milk crate will do.
I have a 4' x 8' sign easel at a shop down the road and smaller easels and tables set up on my balconey and in what used to be my living room.
Every time I go to town I make it a point to hand out at least 3 business cards.
Even though I do have a great location, it's awfully close to the road...I could spit onto the yellow center line off my balconey LOL. I don't though, too much traffic LOL (...and even though I cannot be accused of being a frilly woman, I do try to be ladylike in some ways whenever possible.) The traffic never stops...24/7/365. I go to church an hour early just to sit and listen to birds. Peace and quiet, even.
I miss having a garden, a clothesline and a dog here but someday God will bless me again with those things that most of us take for granted. I'm just gonna keep on working and saying thank you for what I do have.
I would love to be in a double garage on the same property that my home is on. I hate driving in ice and snow. I tried the shop in town gig and I couldn't be at two places at once. I'd spend hours at the shop "being there" but fearing insanity and having a location gig to do, I would return to the shop and find cards and notes attatched to the door that read, "you weren't here...".Why is that? LOL
Count your blessings Corey. I hope you get a bigger shop, but I'm with the others, After months of paying double what it ran to operate a home, I had the luxury of a fistful of notes, in lieu of walk-ins. Being a one woman show, I'd rather pay utilities once and do what I needed to feed myself and have some free time to spend meditating, working a garden, playing with a dog, hanging laundry or just reading, learning sompn new and having a shop to play in with the airbrush...the list goes on LOL. The list does not include worrying about the safety of a shop or having to run back and forth because I left this here or that there. It sounds like you're ready for a shop. Hiring someone would be great! Don't be surprised if you change the dream a little as you go along. Life without change is boring. LOL
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Corey
Ditto to Dave! We are much more accessable ane viewed as more legit now that we have retail frontage. However, we leased for six months before we bought the space. Look for somthing that is lease w/option so if it explodes, you can stay put in the space that is working for you.
I respect you home based sign guys and gals. I was until last year. But, you cannot argue with the numbers. And, we are able to shoot at the better stuff now rather than the guys who expect cheap because "he works from his house" Just my take on it.
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