One of my most frequent customers just informed me that the 3M product he orders for me to install (reflective 580 series) is no longer avail, and the series is changing to 680 (I think?) and that wet application is no longer ok for this product. The 680 will have a delayed adhesive reaction, much like the avery reflectives. My customer of all people supplied me with thick literature on how to install the product for expected warranty.
I'll admit I was a little embarrassed to be given this info by a CUSTOMER. I too purchase 3M but not in the quantities he does, so I'm assuming they went to him direct because he purchases his own stuff, even though he never installs it himself. Too bad I wasn't informed of the visit, otherwise I would have liked to sit in on that conversation.
On occasion local suppliers send me notices for their bbq salmon open houses. I've only went to one years ago when there was a vinyl demo being put on, but other than that, have never taken advantage of the event. Now I'm starting to wonder if I should. I'd like to stay on top of the game and know what I'm working with, how to work with it and what's new and upcoming.
How do you stay in 'the know' about products you use? Other than Letterville type meets I mean.
P.S. I haven't yet read my homework as yet so I can't really comment on the differences of 580 and 680. All I can say is I'm ticked off 3M reflective resorted to this no wet application game as well as Avery reflective. Blah...
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Basically keeping close tabs on your suppliers and attending larger trade shows will keep you on top of things.
One of the local shops is a distributor for neschen films but they also attend trade shows and they come back with some really unique and bizarre films... things I've never seen before that you can't find in 3M, Avery, Oracal or most "mainstream" manufacturer's color books.
R Tape actually makes a good number of wild patterns in vinyl, never woulda guessed it cause all my catalogs only show one product line from R Tape: transfer tape.
Posted by Source Signs (Member # 1164) on :
Donna, If you don't go to the salmon BBQ's, you will not meet the suppliers who supply your suppliers. It is your loss. I go to absolutely every open house, every free demonstration that I can get to....you always learn something, always make a new contact. Most suppliers cannot afford to stock every product in the hopes that it will sell. When they put on an open house & mini trade show .....they are offering to show you what is new, they have all the newest technical forms to back up their product. It is an opportunity, not an inconvenience. By the way....the salmon was the best we've ever had. The 'Splash in the Pacific' coming up in September was born because of the lack of information we receive, especially here on the northern west coast...particularly on the Island. WE are starving for product information here. Especially those of us who are one person shops, who don't talk regularly with other shops to learn new things. We have been to Vancouver twice this year already. One was for a vinyl application seminar....it was OK, didn't learn too much there, but brought home some simple ideas. The bbq you just referred to was also just OK, but I did get to see and touch the new 'Checkeplate chrome vinyl' which does not appear on the charts.....AWESOME! Camoflage vinyl, heavy metallic vinyl, new pearl colors...new transluscents, new ideas for coroplast sheeting, special lighting for clear plexi....
The suppliers don't realize how
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Donna, contrary to what they tell you, you CAN apply it wet.
You must only use RAPID TAC II, anything else(includeing regular RAPID TAC) will stay wet too long and start de-lamination.
Try it, you will see!
Roger
Posted by Source Signs (Member # 1164) on :
Just an added note to that last post. Get the trade magazines... They always have new products and information listed in them. They also list sign shows,and other activities. They list some great how-to books. (No I'm not getting any commission for these statements) If you sit back and wait for the information to come to you...you will wait a long time. The information is available, ...you have to seek it out, ask for it. Give that supplier/rep S**t and insist that he include you in that new information next time. I hope we see you at the 'Splash'. Take care.
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
Donna, I haven't seen you since Banff, but if you can make it to Susan's "Splash Meet", the 4 AM BBQ salmon pizza is on me. Maybe we can drag a few supplier types along and worm some info out of 'em.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Roger, I fear it's more than whether it will work or not. If the vinyl manufacture states it won't warranty the product if applied any other way they see fit, there's no warranty. My customer wants the warranty.
If you'd be prepared in writing to cover the warranty that the manufactures refuse due to RapidTac II, now that may be something else to consider.
Trust me, I'm not a happy camper.
Susan, I hear ya. I should start eating better and if that means visit the bbq's, so be it! I just wish they were closer to me, but then again when comparing to living on the island, I shouldn't complain. I've become lazy of sorts using couriers to deliver my product. I remember the old days of going to pick it up and you see soooo much more than just a color chart.
Mike, cool info on the R-Tape. I'll have to watch for it.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I'm sorry, but I just cannot resist putting in a plug for Letterville here.
Trade shows only occur a few times a year and are often located far away from users. Letterville is here 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Yesterday 11,850 signmakers visited this BB alone. What can I say? It was a slow day.
Most of our suppliers now have websites. In mosy cases, they have invested some big dollars to make them as informative and helpful as possible. Are you using them? Do you even know where to find them?
Suppliers spend thousands, often hundreds of thousands promoting their wares, and websites, through trade shows and magazine ads. Nothing wrong with that, but we really feel they are missing the boat by not setting up shop as Merchants here in Letterville. What better place is there to reach so many for so little and educate them about your websites?
If there was a coffee shop where 11-15,000 signmakers sat down to network each day, would it not make sence to have a banner or some sort of ad there to inform and invite those gathered to drop by their website? I've never took a marketing course in my life, yet it makes perfect sence to me.
We have some wonderful Merchants here in Letterville. They've taken the first big step and setup a "booth" here on the website. Part of the deal is a changeable text message that is constantly rotating at the bottom of the screen. This message should be changed on a regular basis to tell us about new offerings and invite us to their websites. This valuable tool is not being used! It's like setting up a booth at a trade show and never having anyone at it.
Another point. One of our dreams here in Letterville is to put a human face on a business. The rep we talk to is a company's first chance to make a good impression. When I mention names like Roger, Jim, Howard, Mark and a few others, most of you know who I am talking about. Their participation in our community has resulted in them becoming our friends and neighbors, instead of nameless suits. People like to do business with people they know and like.
Just the ramblings of a capitalist wantabe at 4am.
Posted by Scott Pagan (Member # 2507) on :
like Steve said ask the 'board or any of it's supporting suppliers. read the trade magazines like SignCraft, Sign Builder, Signs of the Times, Digital Printer, etc. since press releases usually come before implementation. some of the magazines offer free subscription if your shop qualifies.
for 3M product info it's always online at www.3M.com just go to product bulletins and it will tell you all about the product (680-10 in this case), applications, warranties, and installation procedures. i would guess the other manufacturers would have this readily available online as well.
it can be frustrating hearing about new products (or discontinuation of trusted materials) from someone other than your distributor. we deal direct with 3M and sometimes their own salepeople don't know of product changes without having to get back with us. new products are always coming out, and older products get modified all the time with 3M. for example, when we started testing for the comply vinyls a few years ago, the product numbers kept changing and it became difficult to keep up with the current product until the "xC" came along (180-13C or 680-10C).
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Donna:
Hi.
I think your customer is mistaken. 3M Scotchlite Series 580 is not discontinued...and to my knowledge, there are no plans in place to do so.
Also, as a rule, 3M don't recommend wet application. Here are a few useful links on the subject:
If you EVER have any questions concerning 3M's products (or any of the other products offered by ND GRAPHICS), please feel free to contact me directly...and I would encourage you to get to know our people in our Vancouver (Delta) branch, as well.
[ August 07, 2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I hear you Donna, and I go to all the shows and seminars. I am working on a job right now that involves 3M light enhancing film, which I already knew about, but what I didn't know about was a special light diffusing film, not the milk looking stuff, but this film that refracts light. And the 3M people go to our office at least once a year. Plus they have specialized departments like graphics, and traffic. By the way, from what I can recall, 3M has never warrantied wet application, with thier regular graphics film or reflective films. They have a system of application for each type of film that even includes using only thier app. tape and silkscreen inks. By the way I went to Robert Beverlys website, he is having a course held at his place involving materials, I went to a seminar at the SEGD conference about it as well. There is always a lot to learn.
Rick
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
That did it Sonny! I want a 4am BBQ Salmon pizza, so I'm a'comin' to the Splash!
See? All I needed was food enticement. See ya soon!!!
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Donna:
Does beer work?
If you do happen to go to the ISA Northwest show, stop by our exhibit and meet Chris Hills (branch manager). He would love to buy you a beer...especially on my tab! Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
Jon, I can't seem to connect to those product info links. Are they current?
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I was gonna say, Mike, that ya can't get to those sites from Labrador City!!
Unfortunately, I can't get to em either!!!!!!!!! LOL
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Jon,
Beer will work next time, thanks for the offer! I'll ensure I bring my clamato mix with me. But this time I'm winding down with work and heading for 3 weeks of holidays far far away from my cel, pager, phone, house, cats, everything.
Sorry supplies, I'll have to learn all about you after my camping trip. Some late night reading material will be about that 3M 680 series though... yech... Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
Jon here...impersonating Ted.
Those product links are current and work from here. I always "preview" and test links before I post 'em.
They worked yesterday (for me) and work from Ted's PC as well.
They are links to pdf documents...do you have Acrobat reader? Even then, sometimes pdf files can be finnicky...try right clicking and "saving target as" to your desktop.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Jon..The sites must have been down yesterday...working fine today.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
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