I am putting together a treatise on the following subject and would really appreciate your feedback on the topic.
How do signs effect the health, safety and welfare of our communities? Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Robert
Are you talking about the Health/Safety/Welfare of a product such as.........
Use Sunblock 2000 because of ozone UV? (advertizement) or are you talking about the items themselves in our enviroment?
Maybe the Directional signs stating Health (Emergenancy Room) Safety ( 55 mph stay alive) or (Welfare) Soup kitchen Line starts here!
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Treatise?
Is that a trio of mices?
or a fancy name for a 3 some
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Actually, they're starting to me me sick!
heh............
k31
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
I'm sorry you said on a more serious note, I'm just not qualified to post here!
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
no you are not...now get the f&*k out. Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
Anytime someone can't find their way, misses a turn, bumps there head or trips over something they often say:
"Someone should put up a sign...."
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Well, at least you got one thing right today Rochon.
And ya know, those signs don't help me. Geez, I just make them, I don't read them. lol.
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
Back on topic... Robert, there is some good information available through the ISA. There are some studies on exactly what you are looking for. Good info to use in your marketing programs. Traffic situations, ease of identification and the ability to process a message... elderly drivers. Check it out.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
quote: How do signs effect the health, safety and welfare of our communities?
Most of the signs that affect our health and safety are massed produced.
I think most of us deal with a more commercial signage market.
As far as the welfare of our communities, effective signage can help businesses grow, and the community benefits from that in a number of ways. More jobs, better services, and hopefully increased marketability of the town itself.
When I was growing up I lived in a town that was booming with high tech industries and the signage reflected the growth. As businesses competed for visibility, more elaborate signs popped up all over town. Small businesses thrived when they put out a good looking sign. Many did not when they had a less professional image to present to the public.
My two cents... Rapid
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
My ADD wont let me focus long enuf to make this decision. uh what as i deciding,,, ERrrrr i think ill go back to thinking abotu the 14 other things i had in my mind., Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Robert
I like to believe the type of 'signwork' I do affects people greatly. And I hope it makes my little circle of influence a little happier place. Our projects bring smiles to folks faces.
I know here in Yarrow it has brought folks together to discuss exactly what DAN thinks he is doing. Does that count as building community spirit?
-dan
[ August 05, 2003, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
KAYRN,
wow...i shure love to here a woman say that word...f&*k! do kiss your husband with that mouth!
heehehehe Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Hi Robert, I'll jump in with a couple comments.
Welfare - I live in a historic area that has strictly enforced sign codes, including 'architectural review' which must approve a sign's appropriateness to fit in it's surroundings. As much as I hate the power that these untrained boards weild in judging a sign's graphic merits, I must admit there is very little obnoxious, garish or startling signs going up. This keeps things a little on the tame side visually, but in the long run has created shopping districts with a lot of reserved dignity, that draw tourists from all over the country. The signs contribute to the appeal. (or maybe its the antique quaintness of the architecture and the Atlantic seashore).
I have lived in other areas that had rampant development and a true explosion of huge, bright, competing signs, each trying to outdo the next for attention. That hoopla and confusion of animated lights and flourescent colors doesn't give me a safe feeling, nor a calm one. Is it good for the economic welfare of those towns? Who knows, there's nothing to compare it to, and its much too late to reverse it. Since the areas are still growing, one could deduce that the signs contribute to its popularity. (or maybe its the cheap land, cheap labor, and sunshine).
I don't know if that's helps any, but interesting extremes on the welfare impact of signs.
Posted by Robert Beverly (Member # 1907) on :
Heads
Thanks for those that knew what a treatise was...
I beleive that this is the crux of this movement I know as a Letterhead. The reason that you are so hell bent on doing quality and unique work, and although I will post my findings on this as soon as completed, I will say that those of you whom have or know the answer to this also most likely have a successful business as well. I have already done a great deal of research on this but wanted to get more of a picture from folks that ply their trade everyday...
Anyone else?
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Are you working on your thesis? I wonder how those that don't know meaning of treatise feel about your post asking question w/o explaining your use of the word? I have a hard time not thinking of you as a sexual intellect because of the way you presented your post, are you really that more superior than the rest of us? This post may seem harsh, but, that's what I feel after reading your post(s). Maybe next time explain your use of the word and let us dummies have ahead start in figuring it out by ourselves before you demote us further in your opinion. And that concludes my opinion.
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Damn Robert I hate Word Problems.. (Ohh By the way I had to look up treatise) That’s an Interesting topic as for the welfare of the community. I feel if we as Sign Designers/painters are doing a good Job we are making the community a better place to live in a visual sense and Physiological. We have all driven through a town that has lousy signage and think... Ill wait till the next town to eat cause "Billy-Bobs Road Kill Restaurant" Just doesn’t look that appetizing with that sign done in magic marker by his wife’s sister’s best friend’s cousin that was a Prison Tattoo artist. Now you go into a town that has nice signage and usually the townsfolk have pride in there community. Clean streets, nice sidewalks and a sense of being. People want to stay in that town for awhile spend money, eat go to the boutiques etc. That in turns bolsters the town’s economy. Then there is the mental welfare. Every once in awhile, you will get the greatest feeling on earth. You made someone feel great about themselves. You know the feeling. A client comes in just starting their first Business, Clueless of what their getting into. You like the person so you go that little extra distance... While your installing the sign their whole family is there watching you and taking pictures. You look at the clients face and all you see is a grin from ear to ear. I think the sign is the final sense of accomplishment for them as "WE DID IT" we are officially a Business. You get down and pack up. Get paid. You personally feel great about making a person feel great about themselves till you get to the bank and the check bounces... But there was that brief moment that you thought the world was a perfect place... (Sorry couldn't resist) As for the Health concern I can't comment as my Shop as been designated an EPA Superfund site.
Hope this Helps Bill DeBekker
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Thank you Robert for explaining the meaning of Treatise to us for I am one who was too lazy to look it up in the dictionary myself, lol
Not mention I was in a not so serious mood when I posted yesterday.
No offense taken here expect from that Karyn Bush girl, man that chick is plain mean, got a soul as cold as coal. Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
boy ya just never know who will turn on you just to save their own sorry a$$....hugs & kisses from the coal miners daughter Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Keep your posts down to a 6th grade reading level Robert. God forbid we would have to look up a word we did not know and learn something.
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
Bob,
Sounds like a cool project your working on!
This is an EXTREMELY unique internet forum compared to others. I visit a couple of others from time to time and subscribe to a few Usent groups.
In these other places you are likely to find many posts like Mr. Magoo's. In fact, your lucky if you don't stumble into a 6 page flame war every time you log on.
Generally, these posts are ignored by those who post often. Every now & then someone might tell they guy to kiss off.
Anyways, looking forward to checking out the final product.
Mr. Magoo,
Next time you find a big word, just wave your magic Google wand & you will be in the know! Also, you might notice that this forum is a bit different. Alot of these folks know each other and have met in person. So, you'll often see alot of inside jokes & conversations you might not know anything about.
Best to sit back & learn, & use the search button alot.
I keep a little dictionary int he front pocket of my Jansport which goes with me evrywhere. Studies have shown that encountering one unfamiliar word can drastically impact reading comprehension for the remainder of the document.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I had to look the word up But I believe signage is broken up in mostly these catagories.
Some of these have no need for cosideration on the health and saftey of thier viewees, but certainly thier welfare. I work on all kinds of signage, most if not all instances where safety, health and welfare are an issue, there are regulations (federal and/or State) either providing a general description to enforcing by law. MUTCD for traffic, where the 3M "Clearview" studies were implemented, ADA, where ANSI and ADDAAG reccomendations are enforced for use with people with disabilities, in California we have Title 19 where fire safety, large enough street address' and evac signs have specific requirements to comply, to directional sign that have to comply with ADA standard on letter height, typestyle, contrast and sight distances. I don't know if any of this is what you are looking for, but even though I am working an a theme park, or trail walk, I take a lot of these things into consideration. I don't design for design sake, sometimes you have to comply, or have restrictions.
Rick
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
TREATISE? !
Whatchoo mean, Treatise? I don't have to show nobody no stinking Treatise!
P.S. Karen, I wish you were my next door neighbor...I like the way I blush when I read your replies.
CrazyJack
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Robert, There were a series of books written in the seventies on many of these subjects by a couple that studied the psychological connotations of signs. I'm not in the shop to get the titles, but their last name was Klaus I believe. Karen and .....? You might try to find some of these out of print studies. I think it might have been ST Publications that printed them.
Posted by Robert Beverly (Member # 1907) on :
Rick
Thank YOU! I would appreciate any material of this nature as possible! or references, names of articles written...etc. I have already worked up quite a preface but feel the more I can develop this, the better it will be for anyone and everyone!
You are one peer that I do look up to!
Posted by J & N Signs (Member # 901) on :
Robert, aside from an apparent condescension in your replies, maybe you should have used words that everyone understands when you posted your original question. I don't know you from a hole in the wall, and vice-versa. I'm sure you're a good guy! Just a thought!
Posted by Robert Beverly (Member # 1907) on :
Mario
Your right!....and boy how stupid I felt when I first saw treatise...but I am one that it bugs the heck out of me when I run across a word I never heard before and the first thing I do is look it up!
Other words that come to mind that I first ran across thru the letterhead movement was esoteric and ephemera...
I just thought it was verbiage commonly used to describe elements of our craft. I just don't think that way...I go figure it out so I don't appear so darned ignorant which seems to grow each day rather than the opposite.
Posted by J & N Signs (Member # 901) on :
I love words and languages. Ephemera. There is a song in French which says "Les roses sont éphémères" (Roses don't last long) "Mais les lilacs sont toujours beau" (Lilacs are always beautifull!)
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Mr. Beverly, sorry to be pain in your side,but, it comes by nature; you see, I have a real problem with pretenious assholes such as you. My post was an opinion, similiar to your cohorts, just that, nothing else. To try and filet me in public will probably back-fire on you as all I said was the obvious, I would suggest that if your sensitive levels are that critical, that you post in another forum, I for one , was offended by your orginal post. I wasn't lacking meaning of word, know it well, which I doubt you do, as your version was wrong. Get a new Webster's, yours is wrong. My query was why you were so aloof in your wording, I assumed you were excersising your college education and throwing out words people don't use in everyday verse.I am again offended by your demeanor, do name calling and snide comments really make you feel better about yourself? Obviously so, as you do it alot, what did Jack do to you to invoke such a response? You also have no respect for older artists, who by the way work hard and make bills for many years before the water dryed behind your ears and have been there, done that, so your not unique there either, where are you unique and demand this outrageous respect? I don't get it!!! If your quest to be a "celebrity painter" crosses my path again, I suggest you rethink what you say to me, as I have another bad habit, getting even, one on one. Ever heard of that one? Clue: it's not in your dictionary. Life teaches that one, you better remember that the next time you take cowards way out and tell me to suck a duck, I know what you meant, just no balls to say it. Or are you going to cope the "I'm a gentleman" excuse and not go there? You are right though about not knowing me, I must admit, I allready have heard of you and you came thru like a trooper, everything people say about you is true, so far. I also don't care to know you. Now that I've shown my 6th grade view, and started a "flame war", I'll take my illiterate ass somewhere's else. "jus wastn' time"
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Robert, You want some serious thoughts? There is actually some merit in Frank Magoo's remarks, if you take the time to grasp his meaning. One of the most successful and widely read books among Letterheads is "Mastering Layout" by Mike Stevens. I feel the reason for it's widespread acceptance and appeal, is that it COMMUNICATES it's message in simple terms that are easy to understand. It also ILLUSTRATES the points that the book is making, in graphic terms that many here can appreciate. There are very few $50.00 words used, but a lot of the everyday kinds of verbiage.
One of the all-time masterpieces by the artist Michaelangelo was the direct result of the Church attempting to COMMUNICATE with the masses. The Sistine Chapel was painted to ILLUSTRATE stories in the Bible, because the majority were illiterate.
One of the very best educational shows ever developed for TV was Sesame Street. It's reason for success was that it COMMUNICATED with kids at their level, and made learning FUN.
One of the big appeals of a Letterheads Meet is that there is an atmosphere of camaraderie plus a lot of good old fashioned FUN. Some of the best panels seem are often whimsical or frivolous in nature.
You seem intent on putting a lot of work into this project, but in the end, who will benefit, if it isn't read. Communication is cool. There really isn't enough of that happening. Pontification however, is often a turn-off, and I did get the feeling that that's more like where you were headed. I also got the feeling that others also got that impression...rightly or wrongly. If you are going to devote a lot of time and energy into this "treatise", then I'd seriously consider making it into a work that communicates your meaning and intent, in the clearest manner...and hopefully one that's FUN as well.
I wish you well with your project.
Posted by Robert Beverly (Member # 1907) on :
Ken
I respect your opinion because you offer it in sincerity from past posts that I have seen you make.
But I have seen this word so many times since becoming part of this movement that I assumed that it was a very common term used and that folks would automatically know what the term meant. Again, I heard it first here.
There was no attempt to demean or direspect or absolutely anything otherwise...and I thought the rest of the message was very clear...and succinct (short and to the point)
Regardless, I do feel as tho any post that attacks the body of the post because I used one word that inferred that I was belittling my fellow letterhead is both immature and presumptive.
I received a warm email from a fellow letterhead that offered his help to interpret all future posts before I submit them so that it passes the magoo test.
Posted by CJ Allan (Member # 52) on :
Roberd.......
I find it hard to believe that anyone in the Sign/Pinstriping business has not heard of Frank Magoo.............!!
Frank has "earned" the respect and admiration from his peers many years ago, and continues to do so to this day...!! Not to mention he probably helped develop about half the stuff that you are just now trying to learn....!!
He may be a lot of things.....but LAZY......??
Try teaching yourself to pinstripe with your left hand after some health issues made him unable to continue practicing his art with his right for many, many years......... LAZY...........?? Right...!!
He damn sure has my respect, and that of MANY others.........!!
The only word that comes to mind for some here now is......."Clueless"!!!
I just went back and saw what you said to Jack..............Man....you gotta be "THE" most clueless person in town............and you're most likely using some of the clip-art that Jack designed right now................Sheesh.....Unbelievable....!!
.........cj
Wasn't even gonna read this thread, let alone respond to anything...............but for someone I could care less about, to jump on someone I respect............. Well !!
[ August 06, 2003, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: CJ Allan ]
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
OK,this is out hand, I concede, isn't worth it. You, my friend have some hard lessons to learn. My advice to you is to listen to those "you respect", as their right too, you know. If you must create a stamp of approval by magoo, that's ok by me, thanks.
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Damn CJ, thanks; going to un-ass this AO, same on ur six anytime bro....magoo
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Robert, I hope you wern't including me in that. There are plenty of times I have mentioned the SEGD and the AIGA here but little or no interest. I am very active in both of those organizations as well as AIA. I also have a lot of reference material on code and regulation signage that would take month to read, let alone assimilate. Quite a few here have made comments that they want to do the "cool" work, they can be shown how to get it, and yet they sit there and still complain. I gave up a long time ago, and I do work on the level that only a couple here get to do. I used to frequent this board a long time ago, till I got my chonies in a twist, now I learned that they don't mean anything by it, and if they do, well I figure this way, I'm the one working on a project in China, while finishing a job in Detroit, then project managing a job in San Diego, while they coat MDO, wishing for the good ol' days, and blaming vinyl cutters for them not getting the cool work. I personally like these people here, yes they are abrasive, yes they are smart asses, but you know, I have seen them rise to certain occasions, that make me glad that I'm a fellow Letterhead. And I have only met a couple of them personally. I take countinuing AIA coursesd from time to time, and most here can benifit IF they want to grow, and have the drive to do better things, too bad they don't, but either way you shared, I appreciated it, and you know where you stand. I have information that might be of some use to you, I am working on a few projects that might be of some interest. If you can re-read my post, I would be happy to give you any information I can, there is practically a book for every type of sign I listed. By the way, who from AIA is helping on your courses, I have usually seen Ken Etheridge from ASI/Modulex. Aother source is the SEGD teleconference courses that you can get on CD, they also have live courses as well (try www.segd.org) I do not mean any disrespect to anyone here, I understand both sides, and there has been to much back and forth nit-picky stuff going on here lately, Lets get along.....
Rick
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
Robert,etal
I had absolutly no intent to disrespect you or the plan you mentioned. As I do not use the internet a lot these days, I am late getting back on this subject. Some times I see a time to slide humor at the post and the replies along with it. In my post signwriter times (now computing )I find a need to be brief as possible and I will try to throw some personal knowledge at this subject. For about 14 yrs I have worked for and with a water jet cutting firm called Architectural Fabricators. I was the point man who made the deals work. I was a member of SEGD and other factions as well. Been to many,many Graphic Designer convention / meeting, written a few white papers on your subject matter and now that I no longer am entangled or concerned with these issues on a daily basis, I can only say that at the end of the day it is strictly, only about money and ego. Most of it has already been done, redone and slashed to bits. I have read many of your posts Robert, and under stand the concern. As an old drag racer from the fifties I can say this... run what ya brung and then build on that.
CrazyJack
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
That's neat what William DeBekker said. On a similar note, one way to know part of the effect of signs would be to imagine a town with NO SIGNS.
I dont know if it's related, but today it occured to me that part of what identity signs do is generate trust. I thought about that after driving by a car auction place. They have a rough looking 4x8 backlit slide the letters in and change the words type sign out front. It's been there for years and looks like it, but the business must be thriving.
I got to thinking that in that place, there's a heavy responsibility on the buyer to be knowledgeable (sp?) about what their buying, so there's a different kind of relationship between the buyer and the business operator. Like the sign is out there mostly for directions.
As far as the effect signs have on the community, the effects can be positive or negative. Signs can be clever or dull, honest or deceptive, attractive or not-so-attractive.
As long as we're all talking about signs, has anyone ever named the streets in Letterville? There should be Brilliant Blvd, Awesome Ave, Very Compelling Drive, Funny street, and of course, WALKING ON EGGSHELLS PIKE.
Good posting Robert.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote: By the way, who from AIA is helping on your courses, I have usually seen Ken Etheridge from ASI/Modulex.
Hey Rick, good to see kens name here, my entry into the sign industry was hand drafting architectural details for ASI's NYC franchise back in '89. Ken was one of the guys that admired my work & encouraged me in this field that was otherwise just a job to support my travels at that time. I hitchhiked into the city as an architecture student on summer break from Hawaii expecting to stay a week or two. I ended up there about 18 months & left with a new career.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
BTW. NOTHING you do in the way of sign work is going to affect ANYone in the community unless the City Council/County Commissioners grant approval by making you jump through 40eleven hoops comprised of red tape and BS. By then your proposal will be devoid of most everthing that made it cool to begin with.
k31
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I just went back and read that post to try and see what was behind this apology. Since the posts were edited, I have no way to really know what happened.
What I did see was an honest question. I didn't understand the meaning of the word used either, but I saw it as an opportunity to expand my vocabulary. Why such a negative response to a word? Was it really necessary?
I was more upset over the tone of some of the remaining posts. We all come from different backgrounds here in Letterville. We have our deeply religious people, our bikers and outlaws, Pinheads, Letterheads and all sorts of other diverse "cultures." Let's not even mention the political zealots.
My main concern here is to see we all leave our egos at the door, and treat each other with respect. This does not mean we have to talk to each other like those mannerly chipmunks Chip and Dale, but it's not the local bar or biker hangout either.
All I'm asking is that you consider others when choosing your words and observe The Laws Of Letterville. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.
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