I have made the huge mistake of painting a second coat on top of a first coat that was not fully cured. Now as I'm sure many of you will guess I have a really nasty orange peel effect going.
My question is will this eventually go away over time ? Or is the situation permanent ?
The paint is One Shot oil base bulletin color.
Thanx,
Steve
Posted by Mark Smith (Member # 298) on :
Steve,
What's the base coat on?
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Actually Steve, the correct term would be wrinkling not orange peel.
Wrinkling occurs, as you have just found out, is caused by re-painting over an un-cured first coat. The situation will not cure itself. In your situation I would scrape off the paint, which should be easy at this point, since the bottom paint has lifted off the surface. Wipe the surface with your favorite reducer and start over again.
By the way, orange peel is caused by spraying paint that is not properly thinned or reduced. The paint can't flow properly and dries with a texture similar to that of an orange. There is nothing physically wrong with the paint job, it just looks bad.
Another term, alligatoring, refers to the problem that occurs when fiberglas gel coat is overlaid with a resin that is not "hot" enough. The slower resin sits on the gelcoat and eats into it, causing a crazing effect.
[ August 04, 2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
It's a sand blasted Cedar sign with Kilz water based primer then the background paint,Akzo Nobel Bulletin Color chromatic flat black. The primer and the black have had 72 hours or more to cure, though it is really humid here I think they were fine. I painted the first coat of yellow on the raised letters and graphic waited a couple of hours, paint seemed to be pretty tight. Applied the second coat and got the peel effect within just a few minutes. I have had the signs inside in the A.C. for a day now trying to keep the humidity down for the solvent to come out but still no luck. I tried a heat gun too but that didn't seem to help.
Steve
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
Wrinkling does sound more appropriate. I hate the idea of starting over but if thats what I have to do thats what I will do. Thank you !
Steve
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Steve, I think your 2nd coat was put on too soon, even though as you put it, it felt tight. You might have been further ahead to put the panel outdoors in the sun after the first coat---even with high humidity.
As far as the A/C, you may have lowered the humidity, but probably also cooled the shop enough to retard the drying. Solvents seem to come out quicker with higher temps.
Also, you may be able to wait a day or two, sand the wrinkles if they aren't too bad, then recoat.
FWIW
[ August 04, 2003, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
Thanx, guys...I have already begun removing the paint. It's coming up pretty easily considering. Hopefully I can get this done soon. Customer is breathing down my neck and my helper is not here today.
It's not the difficulties but how we react and learn from them thats important !
This is my motto for today.
Steve
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I just don't understand why so many people use hardware store paint for signs. I have never seen ANY non sign specific product out perform a product made for the sign industry.
There is a primer sealer made for sandblasted signs. It works great. I've been using it for 20 years. I found it advertised in a SIGN MAGAZINE. I researched it, talked to the company that makes it, and found it to be superior to anything I can buy that's been thinned out and dumbed down so the average homeowner can use it. It blocks the tannins in cedar and redwood just great. It seals the wood and binds the wood fibers so the edges hold up better and stay sharper during the blasting process. Yes its a little more expensive than Kilz. IT WORKS BETTER!
I've been reading this board for quite a while. I've listened to people at Letterhead Meets. It seems most of the problems people have, are when they use products sold for home owners.
Then you are going to top coat with bulletin color... billboard paint...cheaper paint...made that way on purpose for billboards because they are usually a sign with a designed shorter life.
Sorry for the rant, but I just feel that we letterheads should be using materials made for signmaking whenever we can. You would have had a lot less aggravation on this project if you had.
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
The documentation for One shot Bulletin colors says it's ideal for signs and billboards where a full gloss finish is desired. Single coat coverage, fast dry fast cut in extreme high gloss etc..formulated as a solvent based enamel for superior durability, workability etc...may be brushed sprayed or rolled to a glass like finish.
Pretty much sums up what I was trying to accomplish, durability and all. In retrospect I think I should have bought Lettering enamel and I would not have needed a second coat of paint. Though lettering enamel may not have been appropriate for the posts that go with this sign, as they are yellow also. I thought I could do better to just two coat the lettering. I made a mistake. I'll work through it.
I've never used a specific sign industry primer for anything except HDU. In fact I can't say that I have even heard of such a thing before now.
I actually use exterior grade semi-gloss latex house paint on most of my sand blast projects. I have never had any difficulties with those. Seems like if it can last on the side of my house it should last on a sign too.
This particular project needed to be hi-gloss.
I dunno dude...Live and learn eh ?
On another note, I try to stick to water based paints. Seems like oil is always more work.
Steve
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Steve, the product is called First Step. Its been advertised in all the trade magazines for years.
I've tried latex paints a few times after reading about others preferring latex for sandblasted signs. Every one has failed long before the signs I made with One Shot.
More work? Not!
If you prefer to paint your graphics as the last step: Take your blank, coat out the clean surface with First Step. Scuff smooth with 3M green pad. Apply medium tack sandblast resist. Blast, stain background, remove sandblast resist, paint letters.
My favorite method: Take your blank, coat out the clean surface with First Step. Scuff smooth with 3M green pad. Lay mediaum tack sandblast resist (I use Anchor so the clear plastic backer makes this easy) on sign blank, use stabilo or sharpie to roughly mark where each color needs to be painted by slipping hand with stabilo under the plastic carrier. Paint on a nice even coat of lettering enamel on edges, borders and graphics. (On a big sign I use a small roller. On small signs a foam brush) Let dry 24 hours, scuff with 3M pad, apply second coat of lettering enamel. Let dry 24 hours. Blast sign. Blow off dust. Stain backgound with oil base stain. Pat rubber dry with a rag as you go. Remove rubber. The only additional painting needed is any special effects or graphics that have various layers of paint such as a pictorial. Most times I paint/stain the back of the sign after the front is done.
The First Step is an ideal primer that will block redwood and cedar tannins from bleeding through to your paint. But its other great property is that it soaks down into the wood and hardens the wood from the surface down which helps prevent bounce back sand during blasting, from tearing the edges of your borders and graphics.
PS. Yes bulletin color is a fine paint, and I would expect the literature to say exactly what it does. But lettering enamel is basically enhanced bulletin color. A chemist at One Shot told me that bulletin color was designed to be a lower cost background paint, mainly for billboards which have a shorter life than a business' main sign. Bulletin color has less pigment than lettering enamel. Lettering enamel is made to flow better off lettering brushes. These 2 factors are the main reasons for the lower cost of bulletin colors.
Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on :
The primer more than likely has nothing to do with the wrinkleing,....When this occurs 99% of the time it is from a faster drying top coat over a slower drying and or partially cured coat.I have seen it happen when a thinner coat is put over a coat not quite cured and just skinned over,due to the solvent attacking the skin on the under coat. Either way you are sol and will have to scrape off the first coat while still wet and or wait till it cures enough to sand and refinish with another coat. hope this helps ya,....
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
Your comments are duly noted.
I have tried this method in some similarities while employed buy another company. We had varying degrees of success. I do see the potential and will keep your ideas in mind on my next sandblast project. The only thing I have a question about at this point is what you said about the backgroundof the sign being stained. Do you design your sign around the fact that you know you are going to be staining the background or can you use other types of paint for the background color equally with the stain ?
I remember having trouble with a raised edge after having painted a sign whith sand mask still on it.
All of your comments are appreciated and part of my learning process.
Steve
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
We spray Benjamin Moore latex on sandblasted backgrounds BEFORE pulling the rubber mask; on wooden signs. Unless they have a light backgound color. After the rubber is pulled, raised copy is sanded & finished with several coats of marine varnish, then painted with 1 shot.... then guilded if necessary.
This method has lots of little details not listed here, that make it work & look really good.
For light color backgrounds, all rubber is pulled, sign is sanded & sprayed with white primer. Raised copy is buffed between spraying coats of 1-shot background color. Then raised copy is painted with 1-shot.
A bit of dust always sticks to the latex, but after the sign is complete, you just spray it with the hose & it's beautiful!
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
I'm getting pretty aggravated now. I completely removed the original paint that had wrinkled. Painted a new first coat and waited about 48 hours, maybe more. Applied the second coat and it looked great all day yesterday. Now this morning I have wrinkles again ! it's not over the entire surface like it was before but still enough for me to be concerned.
Any ideas ?
Steve
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
sometimes even 48 hrs may not be long enough in this humidity...maybe you put on the first coat too thick. i tend to do a thin coat and then make my 2nd coat thicker. i always use the thumb print test...push down hard..if the print doesn't go away it's not ready to recoat especially in this humidity. the only trouble i've had with paint is refinishing an old plank sign with latex...the top panel blistered. i prefer the oil based paints...one shot or ronan....or when i have to match colors ben moore imprevo.
[ August 08, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Wow Steve, you're getting beat up on this one... The first base coat is definitely not drying enough, probably due to the high humidity and heat. I have a couple suggestions, after you wipe it all back off of course:) - put the first color coat on in some fashion that you KNOW it will be thoroughly cured before recoating.
You could do that by putting it on as thin as possible and putting fans on it overnight to help evaporate the solvents, adding a faster evaporating thinner like xylol to it, and/or adding a chemical catalyst like OneShot hardfener. The objective is to only tint the base coat so a single wet topcoat will cover without having to put it on heavy.
Another approach is to put your second coat on before the first one has had time to form a skin, like a half hour after the first coat, when it's just tacky. You have to be gentle with your strokes so as not to disturb the base, but both coats can bite into each other and form a single layer that will cure from the bottom up. If you're using this method with a hardener, the directions typically specify a safe recoat time, after which you must wait for full cure before any further coats.
The only other thing I could suggest is reversing the thinking and SLOW DOWN all drying times by use of Penetrol or slow (high temp) reducers, to give the solvents a chance to evaporate before a skin is formed. Good luck with it. Personally, I almost always use the hardeners with my top coats and rarely have recoat problems after letting it sit overnight. Good luck with it, let us know please.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Steve with uncatalyzed enamel like that 48hrs can still be way inside the time frame you need to cure even if it feels like it is to the touch.....i'm not really disagreeing with what anyone told you but i just read this whole post...if i understand right you're rolling the gloss bulletin enamel over flat black? if thats the case,#1 like everyone else told you the biggest cause of the wrinkling is too heavy a second coat over a first that isnt cured but.... #2 if youre trying to roll the gloss solvent based enamel over the flat its more than likely that that's causing you the problem.....the flatter the surface whether you're spraying or rolling the less surface integrity you have and the flatter it dries to simplify things the more porous a surface you have.....remember the reason a fresh coat of paint sticks to a previously painted panel is b/c you sanded it...knocking off the gloss enables the topcoat to 'bite' more aggressivley to whats underneath and it sounds in this case like you're getting more 'bite' than you want.....and depending on what you thinned the enamel with or just god knows what kinda solvent evaporation you're getting from the cheap bulletin enamel alotta stuff could be hanging around under a skin layer and soaking down,then kicking back up when the temp changes on the panel itself...even though the rest looks good now you may have the problem again when the panel gets in the sun and the whole thing heats up evenly..if its happenig in a couple of places it could be the only 2-3 places where its able to get out right at the present moment.
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
Thanx guys, I really appreciate the input. I'll keep pluggin at it and let you know what happens.
Steve
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
Steve - try water-based paints. Acrylic latex to be specific.
It works well for us and is suggested by the California Redwood Association as the proper way to paint.
[ August 11, 2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Steve re-read every response you got here and take away the knowledge from it..don't ignore any of them just b/c one guy chose to jump on a soapbox and claim to be the definitive authority.....Switching to all waterbase or solvent free paints will not give you a 100% guarantee that you won't have a curing or wrinkling problem or something else. The ability of the paint to contract with the wood has little or nothing to do with one coat eating up the other during application and thats your problem,its not 17months down the road yet..could that be a problem later on,sure it could...... but it won't help you right now and it won't stop someone else from having a similar problem when they paint an aluminum panel much less wood. Having the knowledge of specific products and what they do will always get you further and eliminate more problems and headaches for you in the long run than just relying on the do it this way because i do approach.
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
[ August 11, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Sorry Jay...I gotta disagree with you!
7000 signs doesn't prove anything! In my time, I have done a lot more than 7000!
It all boils down to proper prep and properly matching primer and paint to the type of wood and conditions. I use both enamel and latex, and both work quite well!
If you listen to Gavin, who is more of a paint man than a sign man, you will have less problems. His knowlege of paint and primers is as thorough as anyone that you could wish to find!
If latex works for you....use it! If enamel works for you ....use it! Just use the proper combination and application methods!!!!
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Couple comments here. First to Jay. I'm curious as to who these people are that avoid the website? I get to a few live meets every year and it's not unusual to find experts disagreeing on materials and methods. The murals in Belvidere are a good example. All done by highly respected people, yet all sorts of different paint choices. Why would it be any different here?
Having said that, the best advise I can offer is to listen to what the people doing what you are striving to do or become. When it comes to wood signs, the guy I listen to is Gary Anderson. I believe Jay gets his info from the same source. Here's why.
I've known Gary and Jay for 20 years, owned and operated a sign shop for 25 and produced all sorts of wood signs. Almost all were finished with oil based paints with satisfactory results, but paints and technology have changed. If people like Gary and Jay suggest trying something different, their reputation entitles them to all the time they need on the soapbox.
I'm not saying Gavin's way isn't valid, but I haven't seen enough of his sign work to form any opinion. My understanding is that his background is in automotive and industrial finishes. Until I get to know Gavin and his work better, I'm listening to those who are doing what I want to do. No offence intended Gavin.
[ August 08, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
Wow, it's been a great thread. I have learned a lot. I have a lot to think about too.
I am not completely new to this either. I have painted plenty of sandblasted signs with the same materials I am using here. I have never had this wrinkling problem to this degree before. Maybe a little wrinkle here or there but not to this extent, it's really ugly. The paint seems to be only a little more hard or dry this afternoon than it was this morning. I've had fans and lights on them the entire time. The money for this sign is really starting to flow the wrong direction. It's gonna be a really cool sign when and if I get done I just hope it don't kill me first. I have a small reprieve from the customer, the sign was supposed to be installed today. Now I have till monday. It's already quite late due to other misc' difficulties.
On a last note, I have never seen it take this long for bulletin or lettering enamel from one shot to cure.
Later, I'm gonna go check the humidity.
Steve
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Jay ...... #1...There are several automtive and industrial waterbased systems out there that will eat themeselves if too much is applied too fast....and down here where humidity runs almost 100% you can pile on a heavy enough coat of latex,createx or anything you want so that it wrinkles the first basecoat you laid down...so...send me the check i wouldn't mind having a HUMMER H2.....i really suspect the mailbox is going to be empty
#2 while enamel is not going to give and move with the wood like latex will,its far from being "brittle"...that wasnt the pooint of what he asked.If you want to harp on the point that letterheads should be about sharing info...you're right...and thats what everyone did...the one who seems as if he doesn't want to share but only wants to be correct is you #3 Try answering the question thats asked b4 you type a response you want someone to take as "gospel"...your response neither answered his question nor provided any information for a solution of a similar problem in the future. Am i arguing the fact that maybe he should have used something other than bulletin enamel...no. Reread what posted by me and others again. #4 Sucess may be the ultimate judge of authority to you,but not really....talent and ways around the system are often used to cover serious flaws in both knowledge and technique....a little bit of creative jackrigging makes anyone look like an expert when all they see is the end result....anyone can makes something look good and that doesnt necessarily mean it was done the correct way. #5 Sorry Jay...but when i post here or on any other forum i haven't ever nor will i ever do it just to blow own horn or asked anyone to take what i said as 'gospel', or claim to be the definitive answer on anything..i will give the facts based on what i know and its up to anyone else to decide what to do from there...nor will i give anyone incorrect advice and jump on an existing bandwagon and be popular,nor will i ever tell anyone how to make a sign...and everyone here is invited to do a backsearch on my name if you have doubts about that......but i guess maybe i should get on here and claim to do something nice then ask for my money back? In the last year alone i guarantee you we sold over 7000 gallons of paint..so what does a specific number have to do with it? Just like anyone else here there are a cr*pload of reasons why i know the amt of useless info i know i just don't feel its necessary to flap gums about it all the time..... ..and frankly its a topic for a seperate post. #6 Seems to me many of the people who replied on this post b4 today were "the old timers",i just happened to not read it until today or i would have replied sooner...also....wild a notion as this is....seems signmakers used oil and solvent based finishes for many years on wood signs b4 the use of latex caught on...gee where would i have gotten a crazy idea like that eh? #7 Next time Jay...read the post for the information thats given and maybe you might learn something just like the rest of us.....and dont tell me i gave a "terse" response just b/c it was an answer you didn't want to hear or an answer that didn't give due justification to your ego...once again,if you re-read what i posted all i asked was that he didn't discount what everyone else told him just to satisfy you or myself....sorry if it wasn't a sensitive enuff reply for you but i treat people on here the exact same way as anyone who walks thru my door....the truth is always better than a lie.
Steve..no offense taken here...but listening to those who do what you want isn't always the path to sucess..like i said earlier,talent does not equal knowledge in all cases....i listen to alotta people who think it does 8 hrs a day and what works for you due to 500 diff variables isn't always going to work for me..however if you have the basic knowledge of the product and what it does,you can easily adapt to any kind of change regarding it...a topic i believe bill diaz brought up not long ago.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Gavin Chachere ]
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Steve, It may be too late for this course of action, but what about working from a fresh can of paint? Although I rarely paint, I have heard of others getting a bad can of paint.
Good luck!
Checkers
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
[ August 11, 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jay Allen: I only carry the words - not the pomposity of ego and self-proclamation of being an expert.
No, I think you're carrying those other things quite a bit too. At least it sure is reading that way on my monitor. It's not your message, only your choice of words that I'm starting to have trouble with.
Ever since you recommended that all other posters should be ignored I've been pretty put off. I do happen to be a relative old timer, but in spite of the fact that I embrace enamel finishes on many things including wood, and happen to prefer gloss finishes on a good many things including wood, I STILL consider myself a "good" signmaker. I apparently do a lot of things you don't approve of, which is ok, but what gets my hackels up is being judged and dismissed (whether it is intentional or not).
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
quote: Applied the second coat and got the peel effect within just a few minutes. I have had the signs inside in the A.C. for a day now trying to keep the humidity down for the solvent to come out but still no luck. I tried a heat gun too but that didn't seem to help.
Just curious, was this sign coated outdoors and later brought in?
A lot of failures are not chemical, but conditonal. A black painted sign outdoors is gonna be a lot different from a white sign, especially putting a yellow color. Most yellows are not a s opaque as other colors.
If I have to do two coats of yellow, I'd rather do a coat of white and then the yellow. Less worry that way. And always try to do darker colored signs out of the sun. Lessens the risks.
Then again...I could be completely wrong again. Rapid
Posted by Robert Peach (Member # 2620) on :
Reads that way on my screen too,Joe. I used to be a yacht carpenter/painter in my last life. Guess what kind of paint we used on all those wooden boats? oil base enamels,geez guess that stuff doesn`t last. I`ve been making wooden signs here on Cape Cod for the last 25 years and I only use oil base paint. I like a nice gloss finish! I`ve had excellent longevity with this type of paint. Maybe it`s experience and prep. I might be a clam head but I think water base paint sucks.I just don`t like it and won`t use it. That`s my story and I`m sure everyone else has their own opinion.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Well...i guess its pointless to bring up the fact that this was about paint application that could happen on any substrate and not how to specifically make a wooden sign,but since the topic line was PAINTED TOO SOON,I can see how that can be extremely confusing.........Since I'm going home for the day all I want is the car
[ August 08, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Gavin Chachere ]
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
I love this One!
Oil base paints are not the product to be use! But the New improved "Waterbase is."
How long has either paints been around..
Oils have been used forout the Centuries! Look in the Museums of the world and see what has been done.
All properties of "Paints" need the same repect of how to use it for your image!
This Time....... was only a Recoating to Soon.
Next time add some Hardner or place in a area with lots of heat and Knuckle test it.. before adding second coating.
Never Rush anything but a person to the Hospital!!!
[ August 08, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
well...alrighty...then... I've had my nose in this can o' paint for so long now I'm not sure how long I waited between what coat or when. The second application of the second coat went better but not good enough. I'm not really sure what the deal is but I suspect it's the humidity. Maybe a bit' of me bein' in too much of a hurry. Never time to do it right but always time to do it again. The best thing I can think of to sum up at this point is...Damnit !
So I think I learned my lesson. I have now, once again removed the paint from the logo portion, the portion in question. I sanded it down to the wood with only some minor streaks of the original primer showing. I re-primered it with Kilz water based stain blocker/primer. I'm gonna let that sit until tomorrow. I'll sand it lightly, blow off the dust and I'm gonna start with a fresh coat of One Shot Lettering enamel. As opposed to the bulletin I first used. My first coat of the enamel is gonna be light. I was using a foam brush to apply. I'm gonna' switch to one of those miniature foam rollers. (I won't say what we call 'em around here ) When the first coat gets to the point that I cannot stick a finger nail in it any longer (Min 16 hrs) I'm gonna' try for the second coat. Shouldn't require as much paint this time becuase I'm going on top of just white primer as opposed to the black I was paintin' on top of before. My customer is gonna be irate about being even later but I can't help it at this point in the proverbial game.
If you guys see any fault in my proposed process at this point please let me know.
In reference to some of the previous posts. I'll say that I prefer to work in latex for the most part. I like the water cleanup, non-flammable and all that and I have had more than one paint rep tell me that the "new" latex paints are superior to typical oil based paints for longevity. I wouldn't expect that to apply to One shot or the Ronan counterpart. I don't consider them to be typical but instead industry specific chemicals designed for the purpose of long term signage.
This particular project is based on a design that was implemented at another location for the same business. It was particularly appropriate that the background be flat and the rest of the design be glossy .
I've had a lot to chew up here. Swallowed a lot and spit out a bunch too.
I'm thankful for the opprotunity to learn from my peers.
Keep a positive attitude !!!
Later,
Steve
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jay Allen: Last point: Would you put water-based paints on a car? I bet not.
Why not? Dodge, Chevy and Ford (and probably other manufacturers) are all using waterbased paint systems on their lines these days to please OSHA and the EPA. Yeah, it's crap, but waterbased systems are definitely making their way into industry.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Repaint and Thin no more........
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Ok, I can't resist; acouple of "heads" have already mentioned it, but no-one picked up it. I AM NOT a qualified sign painter, though I have a lot of signs under my belt, I am an expert on pinstriping. I have vast knowledge of 1-shot and my two cents would vote for using hardner. I would think that if you guarenteed your first coat was dry, the second wouldn't wrinkle, but harden it too! (that'a can of worms by itself too). Just a thought. magoo
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
I have no way to get any hardener this weekend but i'm gonna get some to have it around.
Steve
P.S. I never used any thinner.
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
FROM THE CALIFORNIA REDWOOD ASSOC WEBSITE: "Apply with brush for best results, roller is next best applicator. One prime coat and two top coats are recommended for new wood. Back-priming is highly recommended. Use oil- or alkyd based stain-blocking primer. Acrylic latex top coat is recommended."
SAME SITE: "Paint peeling, blistering and flaking occurs when moisture under a non-breathing film finish destroys the film’s adhesion to the wood. " (Isn't enamel a 'non-breathing finish'???)
[ August 11, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
[ August 09, 2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Man oh man Jay, For somebody who isn't thin skinned, you are putting a mighty effort into systematically denouncing every possible point you perceive as being against you or the facts. I didn't mean to get you so worked up. My second post was not in dispute of your information at all - I was only pointing out that your presentation rubbed me the wrong way. And it still is, but I believe thats because you think I'm attacking you in some way, and I surely am not. Maybe I should have emailed you privately instead of airing it in public. Next time I will, and we'll have something funny to discuss when we get to meet in person.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Jay your last post is really good. Thank you for that kind of info. Now i have some facts too..
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
Hey Joe,
Just trying to help a fellow Letterhead. If it takes systematically debunking something point-by-point then call me a geek. Soemtimes I probably am. I just hope I don't turn into a crabby old man that yells at kids to 'get outta' my yard'!!
And yes, I'd like to meet you as I have heard some pretty great things from those who know you. Sorry to have rubbed you without getting to know you first!! It seems you weren't alone. My apologies for that. Let's go to the same meet or seminar sometime. I know you have more experience than me - so please accept my apologies if I try to 'bleed some knowledge' off you when we do meet.
Again, I just want Steve to do what is recommended and not suffer from these same mistakes we used to make. The advice learned from others is how we built our business. Not by repeating mistakes. (OK - we had some of those also) I hope in some small way to repay others for that knowledge given to me.
Talk soon, Joe?
Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :
Wow. Lot's of good points here.
A couple of things not mentioned. Another difference between bulletin colors and lettering colors: speed of drying. Bulletins are traditionally made slower, to be blendable longer. I have seen second coats of bulletin wrinkle where lettering enamel didn't.
Jo's comments about push-drying the first coat are good. An extra thin first coat dries quickly. I have double-coated zillions of red letters in my life by lettering them kinda thin so they dry fast and then go back over them close to the edges. The whole process is fast. You can even do wet on wet if you hit it just right. Otherwise the first coat has to be dry all the way. If not, you hit the 'wrinkle window' and you may develop paint hatred.
The hardener in the first coat is a good idea.
Also, if the paint is not thinned at all, and then dries too fast, you'll get wrinkles. And so will the paint. Try laying One Shot on right out of the can and then drying the paint in 95 degree sun. You may be in Wrinkle City within two hours. Maybe not every time, but often enough. The fast surface-drying is what does it.
Furthermore, adding thinner to oil paint is not wrong. It comes with thinner in it. How could thinner be wrong? Obviously, the amount of thinner is a debatable issue. Durability will diminish or increase in direct relation to the binder/pigment/vehicle ratio. But a balance is needed. Though a manufacturer may recommend 'package consistency,' rarely is it practical in sign paint, in my opinion. Many may swear by so-called flow enhancers. But does not paint thinner enhance flow? If so, it is by definition a flow enhancer. It just doesn't add anything to fortify the paint in any way. And don't flow enhancers contain paint solvents? Are not paint solvents by definition 'thinners?' Or am I just confused?
In respect to the oil versus latex question on redwood signs, I have found latex to have the edge for two reasons, already mentioned: (1)Latex flexes greatly, expanding and contracting with the wood. This helps prevent cracks at the grain lines. (2)Latex is permeable somewhat to moisture. It alows moisture to leave the wood without forcing a blister. I'm guessing that latex was originally formulated for wood siding. It's ideal for durable finishes on redwood signs. But I use oil finishes as well, especially under gold leaf. I like First Step as a sealer. It's tuff stuff.
A good way to avoid problems associated with finishing redwood is to use HDU. It paints with anything.
Well, after reading this long thread and making my contribution, I'm exhausted. I'm gonna go have a scotch and water. I'm not even going to check my spelling.
Brad in Kansas
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Cool Jay, I don't know about having more experience than you, but thanks for the prop. I've seen you at a meet before and felt unworthy to interrupt you with my no-count introduction. You're one of the big fish in these waters, so maybe I hold you to a higher standard for being ultra diplomatic. (Success is a b*tch ain't it?!) I appreciate your participation here Jay, and look forward to meeting you soon.
"Crabby old man" over and out. Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Didn't know that you were a big fish, did you Jay? I would agree with that. I also agree with what he said.
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
WHOA!!! Ain't no big fish here guys - none of us - especially me. Nope - you can't include me in with that group. I haven't served a long enough sentence!! That kind of respect makes me seriously uncomfortable - and feeling quite unworthy. IOAFS, right??
Ray and Joe, if I have such deep respect for both of your work(s) then how can it be reciprocal (you respecting me that is)? Cause there's no big fish anywhere in my book. Just some that haven't got caught yet - or won't again!! I just wanted to keep Steve from 'gettin' hooked again'.
We're all the same in my book. I just like helping out when I can - even if I come off sounding like a butthead at times. I really am not (a butthead) and apologize to everyone if I do appear so.
And Joe, I'll kick your butt if you don't say hey next time. I just don't know your face or I'd stop you in a minute. I have copies of every page of your 'design text' from your website - and may even have pirated a phrase or two for our website. I've always wanted to meet you - but unfortunately my ugle face is easy to pick out in a crowd!! Don't be a stranger next time cause there's nobody stranger than me.
[ August 11, 2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
Posted by Bill Cosharek (Member # 1274) on :
Steve,
I don't have any quick cures for your situation but is it possible the guy will accept a temporary sign (maybe coroplast or something) to use until the real sign is finished? If so that would buy you some extra time to finish it in a time frame more suited to these processes. I don't know how much time (in days) you allotted for this job, but I guess that's a lesson to be learned also.
But I have to ask the following & offer some opinions if that's alright.
Where did you get the cedar? From a lumber yard? Was it stored outdoors or inside? If outside was it covered? Or was it kiln-dried lumber which was left out in some open-sided location with only a tiny roof set way too high to protect anything from being resoaked by the weather? When you obtained it where did you keep it? Do you store your wood on the ground? The reason I ask is this sounds like a moisture content related problem. And as Jay referred to the rw assoc. the moisture they describe is inside of the wood & does not refer to wet paint. Since your primer was water based it was compatible with the moisture inside but it only really dried on the outer surface. Underneath it is still wet. If the moisture content (%) inside the wood is greater than the norm, then drying time will greatly be extended. If the h2o-based primer has the ability to breathe then it should dry, one would think. But when? Who knows.
There must be situations where its ok to use oil-based paints on wood; especially around water. Latex paints may breathe but they also absorb water. Even Porters'. Seen it happen. Have you ever noticed rain drops will cause lighter colored spots to appear where they hit the surface? Water is being absorbed into the coating & when it dries out again, the spots disappear. So what happens in areas which receive a lot of moisture, like coastal regions perhaps? Can they really put latex paints on boats? If oil-based are ok for boats then why not signs? (I don't much care for glossy wood signs either but what the hay - I aint gonna argue)
One last point. Lettering enamels do Not dry to be as brittle as other enamels do. Ever notice that lettering enamels remain flexible? Even the skin inside the can doesn't get rock hard & brittle like other types paints do. If you want the paint to remain flexible I wouldn't recommend adding hardener. That would make it brittle. From what I've read the effects of thermal expansion are negligible compared to the effects from humidity. If you've prepped the surface properly the humidity factor should be greatly reduced.
I've seen both types used & work well until something breaks down & allows moisture to enter. Which lasts longer? Which is better? Don't know for sure. But this seems like a moisture problem starting from inside the wood.
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
Well it's Sunday morning, I put the second coat of yellow on my sign last night. It looks great not a wrinkle to be found ! The paint seems to be nice and dry, ie no fingerprints to be had. I have some thin lines to put on in blue. I'm gonna use some paint mask that i will cut on the plotter. My plan is to spray in the blue with my airbrush. the bulletin blue I have seems pretty thin. I don't know if I'll have to thin it or not. I expect it to cover yellow pretty well in any case, I think this shouldd go well.
In retorspect it's pretty easy to see my mistakes and lack of foresight. We all know what they say about hindsight. I applied an oil based paint onto an undercoat that was not cured yet. The top coat that I applied was way too thick also. I tried to go too fast without thinking first and it cost me big.
On the subject of gloss on wood. It is my opinion that glossy letters look great on a flat background depending on the individual sign. It won't always look good but as a general rule I would say that this is the case. One of the coolest signs I ever made had glossy dark green letters on a flat beige background with green border and accents. Was and still is a really sharp sign. Incidentally the b/g was latex and the letters were oil. Flat on flat tends to be kinda plain jane. Again just my opinion.
Thanx fer all yer help !
It aint over yet.
Steve
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Can this little fish ask a quick little question?
I skipped over some of this thread, to save time, so I don't know if this ever got mentioned.
Does anyone out there ever add a bit of japan dryer to their paint to speed up the drying time on the first coat of enamel before adding the second coat? I do, and it seems to work fine. Humid as hell down here, so I've appreciated the time saving results.
Is this a bad thing? Seems to have been working for me.
Humbly, Nettie
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Japan Dryer por 1Shot hardner do help....but.... "The hurrier you go...the behinder you get!"
Knocking out a vinyl/coroplas sign in a hurry is not a problem...buit a complex sign, such as this, takes time, no matter how much of a hurry the custmer seems to be in.
REMEBER: Lack of planning on the customer's part, does not translate into an emergency on your part! Be realistic in just how long a sign will take to manufacture, and add a little time fer "unplanned things"
[ August 10, 2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
Steve I tried the same;primed a tank with automotive primers-then tried to finish coat with water based enamles.The paint just wrinkled.Try useing oil primers with oil paints and water primers with water paints.Good luck.Opinions are cheap and every-one has one.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Janette
Japan Dryers are No Better then a few drops of Lacquers as curing agents. Lacquers will dull the paint a bit but you can add linseed (a few drops) to help keep the shine.. Burnt Linseed Oils.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I was also wondering about the moisture content of the wood as a possible contributing factor.
Steve, consider trying First Step as the sealer on your next sign. It is really tough stuff and really helps hold the wood together at the edges. I also prefer the look of gloss letters and flat backgrounds.
Sorry I didn't answer your question about the stain background right away. The redwood I get has such a tight grain, that I've never been able to use latex stain. I just can't work it into the grooves because it's just too thick. So for the past 20 years I've been using oil stain. I really like Sign Life's Stains (makers of First Step) but their color selection is very limited. I've had very good luck with True Value Stains and am lucky to have a paint person at my local store that can mix about any color I want. I also like Mautz Stains but cannot get them here.
One benefit of using oil stain is they do not build up and leave a small verticle edge on the rubber. They do soften the rubber slightly so I pat, not wipe, excess stain off the letters. If you wipe, it can lift the rubber and let stain underneath.
[ August 12, 2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Dave Sherby ]
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) When the first coat gets to the point that I cannot stick a finger nail in it any longer (Min 16 hrs) I'm gonna' try for the second coat. Shouldn't require as much paint this time becuase I'm going on top of just white primer as opposed to the black I was paintin' on top of before. My customer is gonna be irate about being even later but I can't help it at this point in the proverbial game.