With the recent talk of water based paints, and the claim that they "last for 25 years" and outlast oil based paints, I juat have to ask a few questions to clear up my confusion.
If water based paints are so great, then why do home owners still have to repaint there houses every 3-5 years?
They claim the paint lasts for 25 years, now is this a gaurantee? and how long have they been claiming this? has it been 25 years yet?
I also read in a post about some signs painted with oil to look like latex in a few months,...waht kind of oil paint are YOU using?
I know oil paint aint what it used to be but man my oil based signs still look great after many many years, the only problem I ever had was a sign with white chalking.
I'm not here to bash water based paints really but in fact I want to learn what you guys know that I dont.
Cuz I just dont see the claims as being valid.
Sooooooo........enlighten us old fossil fueled coating appliers. Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
I was clued by Gary Anderson to Porter brand (exterior water based) house paint. 25 years or not, it's great for backgrounds! No chalking or fading. Plus it doesn't smell (too much) and I can wash it off my hands in the sink.
I've heard than stick-on letters don't like the flat, but satin and gloss are fine for them.
Check it out, you'll be glad you did.
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
I have talked to Gary Anderson several times, as I really want to buy his range of paint (freight here is mega expensive).
He has been using waterbased extensively for many years if not exclusively for about 10 years now...he I'm sure can put you right on that.
We have One Shot and Deka Sign Enamel in the shop, have seen all my old Deka signs holding up well (Chrome yellow has gone beige) but signs are still looking good. With the demise of Deka I wanted to continue with high pigmented water based paints.
If Raymond or Gary don't see your post, give him a call he will give you all the info you need.
Rhino Paint Company 812 332 2033
With his track record in this business you have somebody you can believe in.
Posted by Jeff Ogden (Member # 3184) on :
I have used latex here and there..have stuck with Ben Moore because they seem knowledgeable at the paint store. All these warranties require recommended priming techniques, and 2 topcoats.
I have some questions about Ronan's Aquacote, which seems to be the only lettering enamel manufactured now. I am doing signs inside a school with a mural artist. We decided to try the aquacote.We have white, yellow and 2 blues. The light colors are thick in the can, while the blues are thin, to the point of being watery. We're using gallons, and the blue needs 2 coats just to cover. Does anyone with experience know if this is normal, or did we get a couple of errant cans?
As far as using latex on wood...I am always priming first with oil base, then topcoat with 2 coats of latex. This is what BM recommends. They have latex primers for wood, but they say the oil is better in the long run. I am using all latex for HDU, but am finishing the copy areas with one-shot, but have thought about trying all latex. Would like to use the aquacote, but my first job has turned up what I consider to be inconsistancies in the paint.
Another brand of paint I would trust is American Tradition by Valspar. I have used about 30 gallons of it and like the consistancy very much. They used to have a lifetime warranty of their paint. I switched to Ben Moore because I'd rather get my paint from a full service paint store than a box store, which is where I had to get the Valspar.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Bob, the only comparison that I can make is what I've expereinced here in Texas using the paints that I have used. Of course, those results may be different in other parts of the world and with other brands of paint.
"Why do home owners have to repaint every 3-5 years?" No all do. As with anything, there are good jobs and bad jobs - good paints and bad paints. A house painted with $5 a gallon paint will probably not hold up as well as the $30 a gallon stuff. Do people ever have to repaint their houses if they use enamel?
25 Year Guarantee? That's a good question. Something like a "Lifetime Warranty"...whose life are they talking about - my life or the life of the product? Is the twenty-five year paint supposed to look like it did the day you put it on after 25 years or just be there? Realistically, I can't imagaine any paint lasting 25 years (and not being altered) - oil or latex. Take a new car off the showroom floor and set it outside for 25 years (and do nothing to it) and see what it looks like. In my opinion, all of these claims are just that -"claims", and not really backed up by anything.
Here in Texas I have some signs that were done 25 years ago with One Shot enamels and they are still readable - not perfect, just readable. I also have some that are five years old that look like they have been outside for 25 years. Even in the "old days" some One Shot colors did not last that very long, especially the blues (they would turn a greenish blue) and the reds would fade over time.
My experience has been that the oil based paints (including One Shot) were chalking more quickly and the colors seemed to not last as long. There was one sign that I did about five years ago for a Christian Preschool - parts were done in One Shot Lettering Enamels and some parts were done in latex. In the spring I had to repaint the enamel parts because they had chalked and faded badly but the latex areas were still in good shape.
I hear of oil based paints being better than latex (and lasting longer) and I can only say, if that is your case then keep using them...by all means. My experience, in my area, is that they just were not holding up.
Every area of our country presents different problems to us as signmakers - heat, moisture (or the lack of it as now in Texas), UV rays, and numerous other factors all contribute to the longevity of any film (paint or vinyl). For the moment I think I am using the most durable finish that I can...and that is 100% latex. I still sometimes will use One Shot when the situation calls for it, but not 100% of the time.
There is an adjustment when going from oil to latex. It is not possible (as far as I know) to get that hard, glass like sheen with water based paints. The flat latex paints are more prone to flatten out while gloss usually leaves more of a texture. Clean up is easier, but some of us old timers miss that smell of oil paints.
In time, that glossy enamel finish will dull and take on the flatter appearance of latex. It will happen even with cars...I know, Im driving one. Don't wax a car for 10 years and see what happens.
I have no arguement with those who use other products than me...use what works best for you in your situation. Experiment, and discard the failures.
[ August 02, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
I guess I have to get over my Deka disaster as well, that shocked me so far back i isnt funny.
its a comfort level as well, I know how to get great results out of oil but not latex yet, maybe its time to do some more learning.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
For what it's worth, Bob, I never had any luck with Deka either.
Try some of Gary's paint and give it some time. There is a definate transition. After using oil based stuff for 35 years it was hard for Gary to convince me too, and now I am his best salesman. I don't get any pay, but I am still his best salesman. I'll take that back...he sent me $5 one time after an exchange here on the BB. Still, I have to pay for all that paint I use.
One difference that I have noticed between Gary's paint and some of the others is that some will have a tendency to have lumps develop as you open and close the lid and by the time you get to the bottom, a fourth of the gallon is unusable. Not so with Gary's - it is smooth and buttery all the way to the bottom. No waste at all. What a swell paint.
One good point, even though I don't get paid - I got to visit his manufacturing facility a few months ago and was very impressed.
[ August 02, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Bill&Jane Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Bob, I have been able to look at my signage over the past 25 years and get a realistic account of longevity. I started out using only 1 Shot lettering and background enamels which are alkyd resin solvent oil based paints. We used to soak varnish crystals in turpentine and add pigment in art class to make a basic paint. Ground up dirt could be used in this case to make brown paint. That's a simplified version. I believe the alkyd resin is one of the many by-products of the soybean. Maybe somebody else can verify or disclaim that, but in any event it is a very tough paint. It has replaced linseed oil based paints. It has a lot of good qualities -- durability and spreadability are most notable. Because of its leveling out ability it achieves a very smooth profile and in the hands of a craftman with a good touch it can turn out as smooth as glass.
It is the perfect vehicle for sign paints. When you load this type paint up with lots of pigment yo get great coverage -- or covering in "1 shot". Its biggest enemy is the UV rays of the sun, because the alkyd based paint film allows the UV rays to bounce the particles of pigment to the surface of the paint film. This surface becomes chalky and as it weathers the rain washes it away. If you live in a hilly forrested area of the country you may never experience the failure of this paint that those who live in sunnier areas experience. On vehicles, because of the fact that they are constantly turned, you may experience greater longevity with this paint that a sign that faces directly into the sun all day long. Gary Anderson and I have visited on this several times and since we live in similar sun exposure areas we have had the same problems with the alkyd based paints. When lead was removed as an ingredient of the vehicle component of paint (I believe some pigments such as fire red have small amounts of lead to aid in coverage) it weakened the paint film further, and that is what the government did somewhere around 8-10 years ago. This is when many of us started to experience problems with 1 Shot, Chromatic, Ronan and many of the other alkyd based paints.
You said that people are having to paint their homes every 3-5 years with latex paint. That would be the case for those who are using the most inferior line of these paints. Each company that manufactures house paint carries a budget line as well as a premium line of latex paint. Generally the 100% acrylic latex paints that are ready mixed (instead of adding pigment at the paint store) are your best bet for longevity and color retention. I have signs going on 15-20 years using these paints. My own home which was painted a dark green acrylic latex paint went 17 years before I chose to repaint. It still looked good, but had weathered and needed another coat.
The acrylic paint films do not allow the particles to be bounced around by the UV rays of the sun which accounts for their improved color retention. Acrylic urethane, acrylic latex, acrylic lacquer and others have all benefitted from acrylic emulsions. Most of the modern technology of the major paint manufacturers has focused on these paints. Most of the paints sold in our country will be derived from these paints in the future. Remember the government will wean us of as many solvents as it can, eventually most paints will be of the waterborne family with acrylic emulsions. I think you could realistically get 15 years out of these paints on a sign facing south. Bright red is still a problem as far as I've witnessed.
For signs I don't think acrylic latex paints are easy to use on smooth surfaces. I like them for masonry such as brick or block and I have never found one that covers like the alkyds. There is also a lack of interest by manufactures to develope brushes specifically for lettering with acrylic latex paint. Since that is the case I am bound and determined to use these paints for my sign that get plenty of sun. I have found that it is best to spray as much as you can so that your background is as smooth as possible. This makes applying a mask for lettering much easier and successful.
As for vinyl. If your vinyl last a maximum of 8 years then why put it on a film designed to go 15. Instead use a mask and paint the lettering on with the same paint. Expect at least 2 coats on anything not sprayed on areas that have to be brushed like a shade or an outline. You can be creative in the way you design your mask -- spraying some colors and weeding outlines and shades out after spraying to help with any brushing. Vinyl likes a smooth surface and if you can't spray, figure out a way to get the paint to level out the best you can or go back to using the alkyds for your backgrounds.
I don't like the way paints have gone. I do want to offer the best to my customers; though, so I'm determined to listen to anyone who has anything to lend to this very good post on the subject. If you want to stay current sometimes you adjust your processes and that's a part of it -- like it or not. Bill
Posted by David Fisher (Member # 107) on :
This is a question I've wondered about for quite a while, I'm assuming its a matter of differences in EPA laws between the US and AU, perhaps someone here better versed in the chemistry of paints can answer it.
Imagine a customer has a concrete block wall which they want painted out and signwritten. For my part I'd prep the wall and paint it out in acrylic water based paint. Then I'd write it in acrylic, probably 1 maybe 2 coats depending on the colours. Bear in mind that these are signwriters colours designed with the trade in mind and have high opacity. From previous posts I've read here, water based paints in the US are considered a poor cousin to oil based. I'm interested in understanding the difference. Maybe its climatic? Its horses for courses no doubt, personally I wouldn't use acrylics for a sheetmetal panel for instance, but I do know of a couple of guys that would, and can turn out exceptional work using the medium. Enquiring minds etc... David
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Our process is a simple one. For years we bounced around various oil based paints, then Latigo stumbled on P******. (You know what that is) After working out the process, we stuck with Columbia 20 year exterior water based paints for all of our carvings, painted backgrounds and copy. Thus far none of our painted work has changed one iota. The oldest are now 7+ years old with no visible change in color or finish.... and we're not going to change anytime soon.
k31
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
pierre...is that because you put p*****d(you know what)over the paint? how many coats? just wondering...i ordered some from the website you posted last week...haven't tried it yet.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yup. Two THIN coats, one hour apart ...... then hose the whole thing down 12 hours later and for three successive days.
k31
I should add that I'm considering making Latigo a Merchant here so he can discuss the advantages and applications of the schtuff.
[ August 03, 2003, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
I switched over to using only water-based paints about 14 years ago because I became allergic to the fumes. It was difficult at first. The colors were different, the gloss level, and especially the application process, trying to get a smooth finish. The gloss acrylic latex has maybe 80% of the gloss of oil based enamels. I realized, why does a sign background need to be high gloss? It was just what I was used to. I learned to like the lower gloss better. Today I wouldn't go back. I use Frazee Mirro-Glide. I think its only available in California and maybe Arizona and Nevada. I did a sign with a carved HDU fish thats on a south facing wall in San Diego 10 years ago painted bright red and is just starting to show primer on the high ridges. If I had put an extra coat it might still look all red. There is no doubt in my mind it lasts better than 1-shot. If whatever youre using works, use it. This is just my experience. By the way, I did have bad luck with Deka, it was hard to lay on smooth and some colors faded way too fast. Ive used some Ronan with good results. I pretty much stay out of all the painting these days. It is a little harder to train a helper using water based, it dries faster than they can paint sometimes.
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
I haven't use water based paints very much But do they still make a additive called Flotrol or Penatrol. I thought you could add these to water base paint to help it flow and levelout better. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if you have tried these additives.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Bob, Ive been using acrylic paints for a few years now, having used the Ace Royal Brand, and then Porter. Having been a one shot user for most of my years in signpainting, and still use the lettering enamel, I was told by another signman, Russ Mills, that acrylic was a better medium for backgrounds on signs. Having also read the Gary Anderson was using them almost exclusively, I thought there were two good reasons to give it a try. Im glad I did. After priming MDO, I usually apply two good coats to whatever panel Im working on, and I use a high quality roller from Wal-Mart. These cost about two bucks apiece, but after using them, I wrap them in a freezer bag, seal it shut, and they stay wet for quite some time. My friend Russ leaves them right on the roller handle, and wraps them in plastic with tape applied around the seam to seal it. The quality of the finish is great. I use the gloss finish, and although the finish is not glassy like one shot, its very smooth and easy to work on. Vinyl sticks very well to it, and I use the Mack brushes for acrylic to do outlines and drop shades, but sometimes use one shot for this also. Pictorals are easy, and drying time is quick. A gallon of porter here averages around 24 to 28 dollars and goes along way. Im really pleased with the finishes I get, and plan to keep using the acrylics from now on. Give it a try, I think you'll be pleased.
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
Penetrol (made by the Flood Company USA) is basicly a fish oil ... we use it all the time with oil based paints. Not only does it enhance flow and adhesion, but can be used undiluted as a "rust killer" on metal surfaces. I used it to spray a rusty old barn before painting a mural on it in one shot. 5 years later, still no sign of rust coming thru! BUT, do not use it under water based paints. The oil will eventually migrate thru to the surface! Hint: Paint with penetrol does not "keep" well in storage. Tends to gel. So mix enough at a time for the job and be prepared to trash the remainder.
Flood also make another great product ... ESP. This was formulated to make oil based paints stick to ceramic tiles. It's a clear, wipe on wipe off liquid. We use it to make 1-shot stick to acrylic and plastic surfaces like flute boards.
Flotrol is excellent with latex and water based paints. We use it on pictorials especially.
At a pinch, you can always use the trick an old house painter showed me. Add a FEW drops of dish-washing liquid to your latex paints
But in all cases additions are trial and error so start off on the low side.
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