What comes to mind when you think of the craft of signmaking or "Keepers of the craft"?
Do you think of a particular method, a philosophy, a tagline?
I don't want any kind of argument here, just a good discussion. Consider it your psychology test for today. Posted by John Lennig (Member # 2455) on :
Chris, to me, craft is something that is done by one person, but can be done by lots o persons, just a little, or a lot different, by each person. ?? So that pretty almost , but not entirely, eliminates the electronic angle, i.e. computer generated work.
Also, the same work by a person may be different, each time they do it. Sometimes on purpose, sometimes because????!!
Craft can be moved along the line to be almost "streamlined, or production lined", but, to my way of seeing, Craft is pretty well "individual based, maybe following others paths".
Whew, I just made all o' that up, hope it holds water!!
John Lennig / SignRider
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I think of Chris Craft, Chris Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
"Craft" simply means the ability one has to create something that's unique, using their hands, and the tools peculiar to that field of endeavour. There are plenty of examples that don't necessarily relate to the "sign" field. Quilting, comes to mind, spinning & weaving, pottery, ceramics, jewellery making, plus less obvious ones like cooking, musical composition and writing. Stained glass and sailmaking are others.
I feel that the "uniqueness" of what's created is what elevates one from the status of "journeyman" to the level of "craftsperson". It disqualifies "production type" items that have been mechanically produced, although the prototypes initially made before mass production begins would qualify as bona fide "craft" items.
That's only my opinion, and I'm sure that there are folks who might dissagree.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Makes me think of the best damn Mac-n-cheese dinner you ever had! WooHoo!
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Somehow that question came up the other day & my mind has been stuck on it ever since. I know what it means to me, but I just can't put it into words. I hate when that happens.
Great answers! Let's keep it coming.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i never can pass them tests.....
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Chris, I'm gonna name names on this one...
A craftsman, to me, would be defined as someone who has numerous technical skills in a chosen field and years of working experience in a trade or industry. Pretty generic definition, but it seems to fit. I have met many of these talented people in this industry over the years and would like to think that I could be counted in their numbers.
A "Keeper of the Craft" I would consider a craftsman who not only has the technical skills, but also uses traditional tools, techniques and materials along with a historical perspective of how his/her trade has developed over the years. More importantly, they have a desire to keep the trade alive and pass their knowledge on to the next generation of apprentices, journeyman and craftsman. Edward Wozniak, my high school art teacher of 28 years ago, was the first person I met who fit this definition. He was a true mentor and I frequently refer to what he taught me to this day. Bill Riedel is the first person who I've met in the signmaking industry that comes to mind in this definition.
In our trade, and others, individual style, expression, conceptualizing and creativity are additional factors. Tradionally, the highest level in this regard has been "Master Craftsman" or "Artisan". Mike Lavallee and Alan Johnson are two men I most readily think of in this regard. They have an artistic flair and creative vision that they incorporate into their craft.
As for the all time best, my choice for "Ultimate of All Time Artist - Painter - Sculpter" goes to Michelangelo. I've seen his work in magazines and newspapers all my life, and as a sign painter, I have always imagined how painting the Sistine Chapel must have been. He's really good!
You asked, Chris... Rapid
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Kissy
CRAFT to myself means that to take any raw materials..Ie. Wood,Stone,Metal,Precious Stone,Clay,Paint,etc.etc.etc. and create an item from imagination to finished project.
But a better word is (Artisan) "A person that has skills of hand" I guess we were given the left and right thumbs for something!
Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
Yea Old Paint, remember the time you studied for a week for a urine test and still flunked?
To me "keepers of the craft" means preserving the old methods and materials while surrounded by supposed "faster, better" new ones.
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
To me "craft" in our case as it pertains to letterheads means, "beauty". Its the art of making a beautiful work of art, regardless of the tools or techniques used.
We talk about tools and techniques used thirty years ago and dismiss the technology of today as a part of the craft. Is is possible that fifty years from now we might be trying to preserve the tools that we use today as they become replaced by newer futuristic ways of making signs?
And going farther back to say a hundred years or more, would not the electro pounce not be considere the modern day computer of its time?
I would have to say that the craft of sign making is about creating a visual thing of beauty using whatever means we have at our disposal as opposed to making a board with some uglyass letters hand painted or stuck on it.
Paint, vinyl, smaltz, halographic film, redwood, sign foam, straight edge, laser guide, all just the available tools and materials of a certain period in time.
Maybe craft has more to do with the pride and care that goes into making a thing of beauty?
Or I could just be full of shyte and the real craft is filled with little green men from the planet Mars and is now secretly hidden in Roswell????
Kinda makes you think huh?
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist.
-Louis Nizer
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Craft...Craftsman...Craftmanship at one time were all words to define the finest in your given trade whether you were a Sign Painter...Harness maker or even a Pipefitter.
It sometimes annoys me that the word has been diluted to include the terms "Craft shows...Craft Malls...Craft People".I don't mean to demean the works of the people doing the work, but to me MOST of these people would be Hobbiests looking for a way to make money from their "hobby.
However the term "Hobby" doesn't draw the public like to the term "Craft"...so their hobby automatically becomes legitimized by a change in terms.
To me a true Craft is one that a person spends their lives learning...loving...hopefully excelling at and providing it as their chosen field for the purposes of making a living...not replicating and selling items at a "Crafts Mall".
To be fair I have seen many true Craftsmen and women at Craft Shows...but I always wonder...Why do they chose this venue to display their works?
The answer is simple of course...it's the place to sell their works to the public...interact with one another...and be keepers of their "hobby".
Sound familiar?
I also miss the term "Journeyman" a hard earned apropriate term for someone that has taken the time to make that sometimes arduous Journey from wannabe to "Craftsman".
[ July 26, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Maybe it's kind of cyclical. The passion of seeing or doing a work of beauty drives one to be a keeper of the knowledge, which makes you appreciate the subtle beauties more...
I'm sitting here thinking about this, and wondering if the computer has caused a two way split in the trade. People have mentioned how the machines have made so many lousy signs, but for others, it may have caused even better signs. Before, the main emphasis for alot of sign people,especialy beginers was typography.
Now that lettering has been done by a machine, people are forced to the next level up, good layout and so on.
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
People who make stick on letters with a 'puter and cutting machine are NOT (and will never be) craftsmen/women. The folks who are able to letter using a brush and paint will ALWAYS be crafty. Dig it, sorry.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yup. What Rick said. My craft is being passed on to Roseamary and Latigo. Your work speaks for the level/quality of your"craftsmanship".
k31
Posted by Alfred Toy (Member # 3844) on :
If you can take any material and make something creative why can't you be a craftsman. Its a craft to cut out letters, be they vinyl, plexi, or from wood and use them in a proper pleasing layout.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
??? Not from where I sit. Anyone coming down the pike with a computer and plotter is a "craftsman"??
k31
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Some very good answers. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but it's good to see a discussion rather than an argument here.
Dennis, You worded that very nicely.
Bob, we need to discuss Roswell.
Rick, that is an excellent quote.
I tried to stay away from the paint vs. vinyl war but I do have to make 1 observation. Having been introduced to paint, smalts, gilding, carving, etc thanks to the great folks here in Letterville, I find myself migrating more to those media than vinyl. I know vinyl will always be part of my shop, but I do have some control over how big that part is.
Some people choose to exclude vinyl users entirely from their definition of "craft". Not all vinyl users are the same. There are those who type letters, hit cut & viola! a sign. They are happy with that & couldn't give a rat's butt about signmaking other than it pays the bills. They would be just as happy at any other job as long as the $ was there. Then there are those who do a nice layout, tweak, kern, worry about readability & colors. Just because they use vinyl for the finished product, should they be lumped in with former group?
Does anyone's definition of craft include something about looking at what you do as more than a job, as perhaps a part of who you are?
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Actually, Kissy, that's exactly where I "lump" them. They're technicians of some sort.......... if that's all they do. I'm old school, Kissy. Maybe the term "craftsman" has already gone the way of the VERY loosely used term, "graphics". I hand letter, airbrush (compose & photo retouch) carve, honest to gosh "illustrate", engrave and am able produce camera ready artwork withOUT a computer if needs be. The computer is just another tool, amd it's NOT like the Colt Firearm. It's not a true "equalizer" by any means.
*ducks, locks/loads & waits*
heh...........................
k31
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Ok, Pierre I see your point. After re-reading my post, I see I made my thoughts as clear as mud.
If some choose to exclude vinyl users from their definition of craft, shouldn't they have a couple categories for vinyl users?
Here we have a couple 'sign shops' (& I use that term loosely) where daddy bought em a vinyl cutter & suddenly they're a sign shop. It's not hard to spot their work. The vinyl signs with nasty layouts, ugly color choices & a readability level of zilch. If you can stand to look at the sign, & then grab a few vector art cds, you'd quickly find the 'artwork' they used (unmodified). Did I mention the aluminium sign panel is always white & they have a habit of using red helvetica on an arch? If daddy had bought them a tow truck, they'd now be a towing company.
I do not think these people should be considered in the same category with the people at Letterville who do wonderful signs with vinyl.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yes, Kissy. You and I are wunnerful. And Rick. And Bruce. And Si. And......... well, a whole slew of others here as well. In fact an awful lot of Letterheads. If you're a vinyl computer shop, I'm not going to slam you. Everyone has to feed their families, so more power to you for making it happen with a computer. Those of us who are true craftsmen don't really consider you as competition anyway. And those of us who do.... well, shouldn't. It always kills me to see shops who jealously guard their little techniques and secrets. I've never held back anything I can teach from someone who wants to learn. I've instilled the same philosophy in Lat and Pooh, and now Liz as well. "Develop somnething new and exciting, take it to the extent of your abilites and then move on!" Don't dwell on guarding the hows and whys. Just move on. Keep growing and expanding your knowledge and techniques. Someone wants to copy you? Let 'em. Someone has to ride in the caboose.
k31
Posted by Alfred Toy (Member # 3844) on :
I have a Sign Knowledge videotape. Computerized Lettering by Mike Stevens. Does that mean that Mike Stevens is not a craftsman if he is using a computer and plotter.
Posted by Ed Williams (Member # 846) on :
I'm just a Trucker and don't know how much weight this holds, but. Have you ever seen Bob Harbergers truck???? His truck is done in vynal and I would say it looks pretty Crafty.
Posted by Troy Haas (Member # 472) on :
My philosophy of "Keeper of the Craft"
A Person Who...
...Strives for perfection.
...Has great passion.
...Settles for only their best.
...Continues to learn and re-invent.
...Shares and teaches others to perserve their chosen passion.
...Does thier part to keep the craft pure.
Just my .0000002 cents worth
Metalleg Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
The only thing I envision when I see "Keepers of the Craft", is a signmaker with a brush, cup of one shot, grease pencil, yardstick, and knowledge of layout and typestyles and the ability to use it all. I dont think it was intended to include the newer facets of signmaking. I do a ton of vinyl signs and although the layouts come from my head, the rest comes from the computer and plotter. I think it only be considered a craft when it is done by hand. People like Gary Anderson, Todd Hanson, John Hannukaine, Mike Lavallee and others come to mind when thinking of a true craftsman. There are many others also, and many on this board. And dont take this as knocking vinyl signage. Like I said, most of what I do now is done with the computer and vinyl. Its a wonderful tool and a great asset to any signshop, but the fundamentals need to be there to be considered a true craftsman.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I initially started this thread to see what came to other's minds when they thought of "craft". Then some people started knocking vinyl. Ok, if you don't consider someone who works with vinyl as a true "craftsman", fine. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I don't want to argue the paint vs. vinyl war again. That was not the intention of this thread.
However, it did bring other thoughts into my head. Even if you don't consider vinyl users as 'craftsmen', should all vinyl users be classified together? Should the vinyl shops with a working knowledge of layout, design, colors, readability etc. be looked down on the same as those without those fundamentals?
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Now I'm totally confused since I almost never use paint, brushes or vinyl anymore.
What am I? Who am I? How do I describe myself to somebody? I have fallen into a nameless category. Heaven help me.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
I run a sucessful business, vinyl & digital; and I'm learning (from ya'll) the craft. I want to learn gilding & hand carving. I'm 44. I figure by the time I'm 60 I'll be semi-retired from the business and I'll be practicing the craft, by the time I'm 70 I'll hope to have mastered the craft, or at least a part of it, and I hope I'll be passing it on. So in my own way, I'll be a keeper of the craft...
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yo! Kissy! Chill, little Mama! heh............. Of COURSE this is gonna bring these kinds of responses. How could it be otherwise when you're dealing with a combination of artists and mechanics. My bottom line is......... If you're making any kind of sign, get paid for it and feed the chilluns, you must be in the bizznez. Other than that its all highfalootin' conjecture. If I do a carving, make $35,000 for it and you make a vinyl sign and have to make a ton of them to catch up....... who cares? If you pay the bills with what you do and you're happy doing it, why bother to categorize yourself at all?
k31
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kissymatina: Having been introduced to paint, smalts, gilding, carving, etc thanks to the great folks here in Letterville, I find myself migrating more to those media than vinyl.
Pierre, I'm not categorizing myself. I'm asking a question which obviously isn't getting read.
Forget the vinyl, if "craft" involves only paint, is the kid who paints a "fresh friut a-head" sign on cardboard with the left over paint from the front porch for his uncle's fruit stand a craftsman?
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
KISSY!! Of course not. You know that.
k31
Posted by Alfred Toy (Member # 3844) on :
Where do you draw the line? My analogy is golf. A lot of golfers just hack at the ball. They think they are expert golfers, and they talk a good game. Golf really is a personal game. I'm always in essence competing with myself. I can really work at being a better golfer, but I'll never be perfect. Same with being a craftsman, there is always something that I could have done better. So when do I cross over from being a hacker? Computers? There are some graphic artists that do killer desktop publishing layouts. Who are we to say that they aren't craftsmen. If I could do layouts like Mike Stevens I might call myself a craftsman, but until then I'm just a hacker.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
My take:
You're a craftsman if you take what you do seriously and continue to strive to improve.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
I've had enough fun with this one. In the end, I'd go with Donna.
k31
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Pierre, If someone suceeds at achieving a standard that all would call proficient and professional, then you add on what Donna said, I like that alot better. There are many shops where I've worked with guys that were journeymen and they're craftsmanship suffered. Others were so meticulous about detail they missed the purpose and intention of the sign. I find the craftsman is the guy that does it to the high scale and the businessman does it to the middle and provide those frustrating comments to the craftsman that cause him to feel like his standards are compromised by price and time deadlines.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Ja, ja. As usual, (like my wife so often does) Rick's wisdom tempers my crapola and makes it palatteable. I knew you'd be dropping in at the end of this one. Cool words. I have nothing to add.
k31
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Keeper of the Craft... these words sound like a lt of responsibility to me.
They involve a huge passion in what one does. This passion would drive them to learn and discover all they could about that they do. It would drive them to practice & become proficient at what they do. This passion would make them strive to do awesome work.
I see this person as a collector old & new tools of the trade.
A Keeper of the Craft should also be earger to pass these skills & knowlege on to the next generation so they are not lost.
As to the material used in the construction of this craft... don't think that much matters.
-dan
Posted by Ron Percell (Member # 399) on :
Potential
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
I have some strongly held beliefs regarding this subject.
A lot of words seem to come into play in these discussions..."trade", "art", "profession", and of course, "craft".
I have always said, and still maintain, that creating signs, by whatever means, is a skill...not a talent. That goes for the related fields as well, (pinstriping, gilding, airbrush work). I don't believe that I, or anyone of the number of tremendously skilled people I've had the pleasure of meeting, posess any "God-given" talents. We do however, posess, at various levels and in various facets, ACQUIRED SKILLS. Like good welders, cabinet makers and masons...we achieve our own levels of distinction and whatever we or others may regard as "success", based on not only the levels of skill that we acquire, but often what particular "facet" or "niche" we acquired them in.
This is what makes us tradespeople.
When we apply any additional amount of effort, above and beyond the minimum requirements of a given process; that is where "craftsmanship" comes into play. Craftsmanship, (again, this is just my theory) is the act of superceeding the trade. Making something better than it HAS to be, for not much more than the sake of quality...that's craftsmanship. There are of course, varying levels of craftsmanship. For someone who is more experienced is his ply, whose skills allow for a higher caliber of work, "craftsmanship" is reached at a different level than that of a less-experienced and perhaps less skilled tradesperson.
The tradesperson who treats the appropriate job (and it's not every job..not by a longshot) as an opportunity to grow, to expand his or her own boundries, and to (from an ego-gratification standpoint) really make that job stand out...that's a craftsperson.
I don't feel I'm qualified, or a least HOPE I'm not so arroghant, as to refer to myself as a artist. If someone else chooses that line of discription, I'm greatful, but it's not for me to call what I do "art". Art is, as the saying goes "for art's sake". This trade that I'm so proud to be a part of, is "commerce". We are a grass roots, back-bone form of advertising. Plain and simple.
And as for the over-worked and seemingly under-thought-about argument of vinyl versus paint, brush versus computer...man, is that getting old.
W.R. Pickett, earlier on in this thread, expressed his beliefs about "people with brushes will always be craftsman, and people who use computers will never be". Here's how we differ on that subject:
A good sign is based on a good layout. That's making the right decisions on typestyle, color, use of space, etc.
Good layout skills can be applied to design programs, as well as with a paint brush. Good layouts can be the result of a sharpie marker, a quill, or a mouse. I see people every day that create outstanding designs and signage using a computer. Some of these people never hand-lettered. Some, like myself, are "transitional" tradespeople. I learned hand lettering in the late 70's under the tutalige of some really good sign people.
But some people make it sound like bad signs are something that came along with the computer age. Hell, there were as many, if not more bad signs and quite frankly, bad signpainters, in the pre-computer days. And yes, there were people who based their businesses on price, rather than skill, even then.
I've gone on about this long enough..and could go on for hours, so in closing I'd have to say:
Be proud to be a tradesperson.
Take the opportunities to be a craftsman.
Aspire to be known as an artist.
Finish that Agency-provided-artwork cube van, and get the bill out so you can get that new set of stainless steel tiki torches for the patio!
Keep on keepin' on
Brian Briskie
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Good post, Brian. One with which I have little dispute. I am an artist, schooled and tempered in that phoney balogna world of critics and sales. Being fed up with the world of portrait/wildlife engraving sales, I retreated back into carving. Less pressure and more $$$s. The fact that a number of us here ARE artists makes me (sometimes)unjustifyably intolerant. If Pooh were here she'd have already kicked me right in the ojo s. Many of us are Alpha types. That's not always good for analyzing and posting in thread's like Kissy's, but my family is well cared for and that, for me, is the bottom line of all of it.
k31
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
I think there are many that take aquired skills and just keep hitting the repete botton. Moving the design to where there is a rhythem and controlled visual flow brings it into the realm of art, and applying that concept with color and textures in a masterful way covers the craftsmanship. Many go beyond aquired skills. Brian might have difficulty connecting those higher levels of ability that some display with God. I don't want to bring faith issues into this, but I do see many that go way past the skills they learned from their mentors.
Next question....how does a craftsman care for his tools?
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
I do the cleaning, sharpening, safe storage and maintenace with something I like to call "children".
heh....................
k31
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Whoa, back up a minute...
Rick, "those higher levels of ability that some display with God. Brian, "the act of superceeding the trade."
Mix those together a bit.
Considering the true nature of what we do for a living, doesn't the work that inspires us to strive for excellence tend to be those that achive the level of "art". I've always had a natural (God given if you prefer) artistic ability. I've been drawing, cartooning, playing music and even been noticed for my creative writing since I was 12, but does that make me a craftsman?
How does one become a craftsman.
I don't think it something you define for yourself, but how those around you percieve your talents, skills and dedication to the craft you choose.
Brian, you mentioned aspiring to be an artist.
Those who have are the true craftsman of this trade. With thier God given skills for creativity, the abilty to inspire others to reach the same level of excellence, and most importantly, the passion for their craft.
Anyone can take up a craft, but a true craftsman will elevate it to new heights.
Rapid
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
Ray,
I think you nailed it!!!! IMHO...
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
I must be a Craftsman....because I buy all my tools at Sears!
It says "Craftsman" right on them! :
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Hey!! We're tryin' to make this seriouser and seriouser, and your tryin' to make it levitier and levityer. This ain't workin'!! SOME of us are now elevated beyond Craftsman and Artist! We're bonyfide Dieties!! Manual labour is no longer required............ just a wave of the gifted hand accomplishes all.
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