This is not a sign question but an observation or theory of our industry. At an appointment last week my Doc and I got to speaking about my Adult ADD or ADHD. (I was diagnosed as a kid). It seems many kids with ADD or ADHD carry it with them into adulthood. Like me. I work with parents of ADD/ADHD kids and with other older sufferers, just sharing my experience in growing up, dealing with and making a success of my life despite the debilitation of ADD.
I recently took part in a big discussion with a board of so called experts. One Dr. brought up a study on the similarities in characteristics between entrepreneurs and those with Adult ADD or ADHD. Entrepreneurs and ADD and ADHD suffers are both usually identified by their tendency to strike out on there own in business (cause they can't last at a regular job, punching a clock with the other Joe Lunchboxes). And They usually wind up in a business where they create something new or in a field that allows a constant creative process (because they are very creative thinkers and easily bored).
I began to think about my own path that brought me to the wonderful world of signs. I started wondering since there are so many creative business owners here: How many of you have, think you might have or after reading the following wonder?
The American Head Shrinker Association developed the follow checklist; to be defined as having ADD or ADHD you must meet 12 of the following characteristics: 1)Sense of underachievement, of not meeting ones goals. 2)Difficulty getting organized 3)Chronic procrastination or difficulty getting started 4)Many projects going on at once; trouble with follow through 5)Tendency to say what comes to mind without concern for timing or appropriateness of remark. 6)constant search for high stimulation 7)Tendency to be easily bored 8)Easy distractibility; trouble focusing. Tends to "tune out" or "drift away". 9)Often creative, intuitive and highly intelligent 10)Trouble going through established channels 11)Trouble with authority 12)Impulsive; either verbally or with action 13)Tendency to worry needlessly or endlessly 14)Sense of impending doom 15)Mood swings and depression 16)impatient; low tolerance for frustration 17)Restlessness 18)tendency toward addictive behavior 19)inaccurate self image (pro or con) 20)Family history of ADD or ADHD
I guess what I'm wondering is if our little commune of paint sniffers here may be more than what it appears to be on the surface and we have more in common then appears. Do some of us have similar Genetics? One study claims a gene has been passed down from the hunter/survival days of the caveman before most survivors turned to farming and to community. During this process of evolution most of the hunters died off. But the small number that survived is said to have a specific gene that has been passed on.
It is estimated that between 9-15% of the population has ADD or ADHD. I'm curious as to what the percentage might be here in Letterville or in our industry for that matter.
I am due to speak before a large audience next month and was looking for a new angle to keep their attention. I'm sure you guys are going to jump all over this with humorous posts but keep in mind I am looking to get some serious input, opinions, feelings, stories etc... from the most creative group I know of. This could turn out to be really interesting. Thanks
Posted by Peter Schuttinga (Member # 2821) on :
I scored a ten, so I guess I fell below the ADD radar, but close enough to leave me wondering. maybe I'll ask my wife to score me. Very interesting theory, and may have some truth to it. A long time ago I worked with an Italian sign painter. He always had many thing on the go, yet could never finish them. In the middle of doing a sign he would stop, and paint a flower or two on anyting laying around. He also had plenty of problems with authority, he just did not care. He was a good sign painter and he knew it, yet would never take the time to check the spelling.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Hi David We were introduced to the wonderful world of ADD/ADHD when our daughter was diagnosed in high school. What a change that day made in my life. After a lifetime of struggling and beating myself up for being so inept, I came to the realization that I was not a "bad", "stupid" or "lazy" person, that my lack of organizational skills were due to the way my mind was wired. I'd always known that those labels didn't belong to me, that I had inherited certain shortcomings along with some incredible abilities from my father. I did a lot of research once I realized that I had found the answer to the question "What's wrong with me?" My conclusion is that there isn't anything wrong - just different. I only regret that I hadn't found out sooner about all of this, because it probably would have made life alot easier. Once you are aware of something it becomes so much more manageable, and I have learned a lot of coping skills. My daughter did alot of presentations at paraprofessional conferences in her last two years of high school. I'm betting that there is a very high percentage of ADD on this BB. It really does seem to go hand in hand with creativity.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
I got to ten and then started painting flowers on things laying around the office... Now, where was I?
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
hmm. i scored a 11 and whats and adhd?
lemme see here. where was i?
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
oh yea...add/ahdd....just something else to make us all dependant on some damn drug!!!!! i got 28 years in AA/NA and you wana see some ADD/AHDD people go to a meetin....oh and thats also has 12 things to figure out if you got a problem. me iam the lazest person i know. drugs i dont need, i know iam crazy and not the norm..and i like it....so i live with it and dont blame my creativity on some damn problem some shrink came up with. i like me, and iam good at what i do, and i may not move in the same steps as the rest of the people...again... i like the way iam. oh i didnt take the test....didnt feel it would serve any good for me. i like being drug, meat, soda, beer, wine, pot, scrip drugs...FREE......
[ July 23, 2003, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I dunno about this ADD thing in Adults.
Kids don't have any choice but to live with it because they cannot make conscious decisions to deal with their problems..
But Adults... I think if you have the capability to identify your problem (so-called ADD) then you have the ability to deal with it.. It takes a conscious effort. If you run your own business and you just figure you have ADD and that's why you cannot remember jobs or follow up with customers, you either need to get out of your own business or hunker down and just get the work done. Not having any food in the kitchen or money to pay bills should be enough motivation to get work done.
I'd venture to say I have more projects going on at once than most people here, just join in letterville chat some night and it's the first question I am asked when I show up.. "Hey mike, what project you have going on today?"
I'm easily bored... I sometimes miss emails.. I bounce around from here to there and back over that way only to end up in 3 days ago.
In fact I fit into every statement on that list in some degree.. but I'll chalk it up to my own laziness or flakiness before I ever give up and say "Oh, it's OK, I have ADD."
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
before you draw any premature conclusions regarding the common thread of distraction & delusion around this community, did anyone else notice that strangely psychedelic glow emanating from our village watertower above?
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
David, I answered yes to every question.
I've never been diagnosed, nor have my kids, but that does not mean it is not a factor to consider. Here in Letterville, if the same percentages you posted apply, that would mean over 300 of us would have ADD.
Food for thought. Rapid
Posted by Jack Davis (Member # 1408) on :
I have dyslexia, which I believe to be a stronger case of ADD. I may have both, but obviously the symptoms, are coupled to both problems. Dyslexia as well as ADD have very powerful assets, along with their inherent problems. We have a much higher sense of awareness, we tend to view and balance visualizations in our heads much better. (i.e. being able to imagine exactly what a sign will look like, without laying it out on paper) For this reason, many dyslectics become artists or designers. It is very easy for me to create great play on words, because they flash around in my head. Unfortunately, I could be only a one liner comic, as I have no sense of timing. I have always believed the two were the same thing. Do any of you others, have problems reading or transpose things a lot?
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Everyone can answer yes to some of those points. Seems to be a good way for some to excuse their character flaws.
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
I scored 18 out of 20 and doubt that I suffer from ADD. I do carry the blessing/curse of an above average IQ which will cause most of the symptoms you list.
I have two sons. I also HAD a wife who "hung on the words of any professional" and who has spent most of her adult life within five feet of a self-help book.
The older son was diagnosed in the first grade as having ADD and was put on Ritalin. Since we lived nearby, he also participated in a National Institute of Health study for about a year. After that time they concluded that, while there was nothing they could specifically measure or identify, he had ADD. He had also been placed in a Special Learning Disabilities class at school.
By the third grade, most parties concluded that he did not have ADD. He was taken off medication but by them had self-esteem problems and spent the balance of his school years in Emotionally Handicapped classes. At sixteen, he quit school. He is now in his thirties and still has self-esteem problems.
The other son, as a teenager, developed a habit of persistently clearing his throat. A neurologist diagnosed him as having Tourettes Syndrome and put him on Halperidol .... a powerful drug with tranquilizing effects.
After two years of watching him fail and generally spend his waking hours in a stupor, I took him off his medication. When no symptoms of Tourettes appeared, I contacted the neurologist for a reevaluation. The doctor refused, saying that his symptoms might be in remission but that his diagnosis could not be wrong. (Diagnosis of TS is done by "Clinical Observation" .... there is no specific way of determining if one has it or not).
Now, twenty years later, this son is a commercial pilot and holds a responsible management position at an airport. He no longer clears his throat persistently, nor does he demonstrate any symptoms of TS, and he has not taken medication to mask its symptoms since I stopped supplying it to him.
I no longer take the words of professionals and experts as being better or more meaningful than my own intellect and common sense dictate and I caution anyone else to be skeptical in these matters.
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
I have to agree with Mikes and Davids assessment. I have many of the signs but have never allowed any of them to be an excuse for any inabilities or short comings I might have.
I'm comfortable in my own skin even though many others don't understand me. As an adult I know what I need to take care of.
Posted by Ryan Ursta (Member # 1738) on :
Attention defec... Hey lets go ride bikes!
Sorry I had to:)
I dont have ADD i just listen to what I want to hear.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I don't think that David was looking for an excuse for his shortcomings. I know that I am much more organized and efficient since I learned the reasons I struggled with certain things. I have benefited a great deal from some of the traits that go along with ADD. I have raised six wonderful children, I have a diploma in Agriculture, I am running my own business, I've coached ringette, hockey and ball, done countless hours of volunteer work in the community, etc. This has been possible because of the traits that I attribute to ADD, not despite them. What I'm trying to say is that I do not use ADD as an excuse for anything, rather I appreciate the good things it has brought me. Sure there are days when I wish my mind would focus better, when I curse my scattered brain, but it has a great deal to do with whom I became. Understanding how my mind works has made me accept myself. Instead of beating myself up I learned coping skills - for example I open and deal with my mail as I get it - if I don't have time to deal with it, I don't pick it up at my PO. I do not take any medication, but there is a wealth of information available on how to work around things. I do complete my work on time and I do not use this as an excuse. I will never be overly organized, simply because my mind jumps around too much. There are times when I am simply to unfocused to do certain things. Putting music on, listening to books on tape, having a TV running all help me cope by distracting and keeping my mind from racing while I work. I would recommend that if at all possible, keep your children off medication and teach them to deal with the way their minds are wired. Our daughter was diagnosed just before she started grade 11, She was the one who was totally frusterated with losing things and being unorganized and was insisting that there was something wrong with herself. Her father and I rejected that idea, she was a beautiful, creative, caring, vibrant girl who had inherited some "bad" traits from her ancestors. She went on medication for a short period of time, in the first week on meds, she accomplished more than she had in her entire lifetime as far as organizational and concentrational stuff. She suffered from extreme emotional rebounds as her medicine wore off - all the emotions swings that had been bottled up during the day hit at once. She used medication off and on for the next two years, struggling between dealing with the emotional side effects of the drug and the desire to have a less chaotic life. The tragedy in this story is that she has since developed schitzophrenia, and we were later told that it can be triggered by Ritalin. Because there is mental illness in the family, she may have developed it anyway, but had I known the possibility existed I would not have let her experiment with the medication. ADD/ADHD can be viewed as a handicap, and in some severe cases it definately is, but it comes with a treasure chest of good traits. Unfortunately it can wreak havoc on your self esteem. David - I think the theory that there is a higher percentage of people with these traits in North America because of the type of people who migrated here - those who were adventurous, in trouble, runaways etc. makes perfect sense. The neat thing is that it has made North America a very inventive and progressive continent. I think there are people who afraid of putting a label on things because it brands them. I do not think that ADD or ADHD should ever be allowed to be used as an excuse for character flaws, and athough I realize that in some extreme cases medication is necessary, I would like to see it treated with education, rather than drugs.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Soem food for thought.....
Many real profesionals that study and deal with these "traits" describe them as just traits. Few of them are still calling it a syndrom or disorder any more unless it leads to a learning or behavior problem.
They are Genetic traits just like one has brown hair or blue eyes. We all have strenghts and weaknesses most of which are gifts from our genetic combinations.
And we all must make adjustments for persons with this trait just as we all make adjustments for those with born using their left hand.
Do you agree????
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I don't see this post as trying to make any excuses. I think the intention was to see how similiar the traits we have are to what some head shrinkers use to define ADD. What is AHDH?
I oftentimes joke that I'm suffering from ADD today, which is why I was busy all day but got zilch accomplished. I often work on one project for a while til I get bored (which sometimes takes as little as 5 minutes), then I'm off to something else.
Do I think my lack of concentration is caused by some disease? no, I wouldn't call it a disease on my part, just the strange workings of my own mind. Do I think it can be cured by a drug? For me, no. Even if it could, I wouldn't take it.
I've said for years I have a highly addictive personality. I find something I like, then I overdo it until I can't stand it anymore. I started shooting pool again a couple years ago, before I knew it I was playing 5 nights a week. Didn't take long for me to resent the teams I was on & long for the season to be over. I haven't shot in 3 months.
I scored 15. It took me 20 minutes to write this cause I had to stop to check my email & I played a game of solitaire.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I agree Curtis! It is more of a personality type than a disease. It can be severly handicapping, however. Chris ADHD is ADD with Hyperactivity added. People that fall into that category are very hyper and often very disruptive to their environment due to the fact they can't sit quietly - the interesting thing about that is they can become so totally absorbed in something that they are interested with that they will completely shut out the world around them. A lot of people with these traits seem to function on the two extremes of behaviour - either being totally engrossed or "bouncing off walls". It is a very fascinating subject. EDIT: Just reread this string Jack - my daughter showed signs of dislexia in her first years of school - she also was ambidextrous - wrote with both hands - sometimes up and down the page sometimes left to right. She seemed to overcome this by garde three although the teachers were quite concerned in the beginning. She always has had trouble reading and concentrating on the written text, much more a visual learner - but then aren't a lot of creative people. Doug - too funny!
[ July 23, 2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
I got a 19 out of 20 Cant answer 20 as I was adopted... They forgot 21.. "Cant find ones desk under the pile of junk"...
Very Intresting post as I was one of the millions diogosed with that in the early 70s and put on Riddlin to make me "Better"..Nothing like giving a 7 year old heroine I don't make excuses for my behavior. "Thats who I am." You just learn to channel your energy. I can say I'm realitivly happy with my "Disability" it could be worse.. I could have been a politician.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Dave
Very interesting post! My mother said the school wanted me on Ridilin (?) when I was 8, but my parents decided to be strict instead. Probably for the better. Some teachers love it when the kids are zombies, and don't challenge them because they are sedated.
Today, I match about 12 of the symptoms. But, I imagine alot of the design prone people on the BB match most of them too. Happily, I don't suffer from depression, mood swings, addictive behavoir,or worry about impending doom. But, I would rather have ADD/ADHD than somthing terminal or life threatening. Greetings to all.
[ July 23, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Kelly, when I was a little kid I could write with both hands simultaneously, on seperate pages and different thoughts on each page... I somehow grew out of that by the time I was 8 years old but I would kill to have that ability these days, I'd get so much more done! Now I just write left-handed, but any other activity that has a "hand" I favor my right but I can use my left too.
Like it was mentioned before, ADD is just certain traits each of us have but the medical community had to go give it a label and develop a drug to "cure" it, so all of a sudden people have a label they can give themselves. "Oh he has ADD, let's dope him up on some medication even though there's no real medical condition in play here."
I never had any of the "ADD traits" when I was younger. I had no problems concentrating on school, in fact school was a breeze for me all the way up through college. Maybe it's possible that school provided just enough new challenge to keep me interested - I still breezed through it.
It wasn't until I got into the workforce that monotony and boredom set in, then I just went completely nuts looking for something that was a challenge.. hence my bazillion hobbies.. Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Just curious but what are the traits of somebody with a "type A" personality? Are they not similiar? I have "OCD" too and who knows what else. But no paranoia or schizophrenia luckily.
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
As a kid I'm some fukin happy not to have been labeled, medicated or part of an expiriment.
As a parent and adult I'll be damn if I participate in it.
As a "society" we have come a long way.... sometimes in the wrong direction, like school nurses handing out dope to to long lines of kids.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
my opinion....most of you need to take an hour a day, go out and sit in a field, and MEDITATE!!! go ahead laugh....not untill you stop and sit and think of nothing, only then will you be able to enjoy who you are and what you do...FOR YOU when you do a meditation. in my 20's i had 3 jobs, dirt biked in the summer, skiid in the winter. was always DOING! same for my later years..always got projects. i was 42 smokin 3 packs a cigarettes a day and had 3 heart attacks. some say since i didnt go to a doctor, that i didnt really have em. well if they werent, i never want to have one..AGAIN. since then i have done a lot of things to keep myself well and TIA CHI was one of these things. i had done martial arts in my younger years, but that was just so i could really hurt someone. tia chi is all about internal energy, and how to control it.....and its better then any drug!!!! along with tia chi the sefu/instructor would have weekend meditations....yea weekend..2 day, or 4-5 hours each of nothing but sitting quietly and not thinking....gee such a weird concept you say....well it sure is....and if most who belive what these doctors tell would try this....you wont need your drugs anymore...you all have heard or seen the hindu swamis that can take their pulse rate from 70 down to 20-30, lower their blodd pressure, go days without food or water, and all they do is use their minds.......just remember most people only are using 10% of their brain at any given time.....you have no idea what that other 90% can do......
[ July 23, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
The guy was being taught to become the next shaman in this village & he was required to sit & draw a circle around himself & then focus his concentration on nothing beyond the circle from sunrise to sunset. (It may have been 24 hours actually... or was it 3 days?)
Anyway, great book for anyone.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Yes to almost all, but then I know that I am ADHD. I have been tested and tested out as severe ADHD. I was born with it as were all my brothers but it can also been caused by a head injury, especially if the person is knocked out. Mine was compounded by 3 serious head injuries. When I was 3, I fell out of a moving vehicles and fractured by skull. When I was 12 I fell off a horse, hit my head on a huge rock and was knocked out. I was hospitalized with a concussion. When I was about 38, I was out in the woods with my husband cutting wood. He cut a tree that started to fall the wrong way and I ran to the trailer to try to protect myself. The tree fell squarely on my head and literally almost killed me.
In elementary school everything was so easy and I was so disruptive that when I would get my work done early, the teacher would let me go to the kindergarten class and read to the kids. Before the teacher let me start doing that, I usually spent most of the day in the hall for talking too much.
After falling off the horse, everything went down hill. School became so hard that I wasn't able to graduate with my class. I didn't graduate until Aug of that same year because I had to do summer school.
I have struggled with this all my life and sometimes have cried myself to sleep because of the stress of trying not to be impulsive and say whatever comes into my head. I was constantly telling people that I was sorry for what I said. I have since found out why this happens. I had a Dr. tell me that in a normal brain when a thought comes in the brain, it pauses and then processes the thought - say or not say something or do-don't do something. But in an ADD/ADHD brain there is no pause. So whatever comes in-goes out the mouth or the person acts on it. I have learned to compensate by trying to constantly tell myself to slow down, monitor myself, etc. I would go to bed at night and be so totally drained emotionally that I would either be awake all night or totally zonked out.
Ritalin has been my saving grace. I almost got in a serious accident a few years ago because of not paying attention. I was driving down the road and got spacey and wasn't paying attention and looked up just in time to see four cars driving real close to each other coming at me and I had crossed over the yellow line. Thats when I decided to get tested before I killed someone or myself. I was test severe and put on Ritalin.
Recently I forgot to get my prescription renewed and went 2 weeks without it. No money was coming in at the shop and I was getting behind in my bills. Then I realized that I was going into the shop, jumping from one job to another, and getting nothing done - which meant no money coming in. I started back on the Ritalin and bingo, I was able to concentrate, stay on track, and get things accomplished.
People in the past have tried to be helpful by telling me to just concentrate harder, get more organized, write things down, etc...A dr. told me once that an ADD/ADHD brain doesn't have as many neuro-transmitters as a normal brain. So when a thought comes in there may not be enough neuro-transmitters to receive and process correctly. My theory for why Ritalin works on an ADD/ADHD brain is that it makes what neuro transmitters that are there, work more efficiently. On a normal brain, Ritalin would act like speed. But thats just my theory.
Some normal people tell me that its all in my head and that if I tried a little harder I could do better. I tell them that thats like telling a diabetic that if they tried a little harder then they wouldn't need insulin.
Now on the good side of being ADHD- When I was younger, I got a lot of stuff done. I was good at Real Estate, I would push myself when doing physical work (but then I would push other people too), I was charming and had a quick sense of humor, I was never boring and could intelligently discuss many subjects with paupers or millionaires. Actually I feel sorry in a way for people that aren't ADHD. I have loved it and I have hated it.
[ July 23, 2003, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Dave Utter (Member # 634) on :
, I do resemble the things stated above. Like almost all of them. I don't have a problem with authority though. I love it.
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Thanks Kelly for your insight...a lot of people are ignorant in thinking we can control our behavior if we only tried harder.....typical of those who don't have ADHD.
All my life I've 'tried harder' to focus, organize, sort, sit still, file my taxes, balance my checkbook, finish a painting, finish my jobs, etc.......
Even though most people tell me I'm talented and creative, they don't know how far I fall from where I wish I was in my career.
I've been on Pemoline for several years and since it's known to adversely effect the liver I've decided to take myself off it.
If things get worse I'll have to try something else.
Most people with ADD/ADHD have higher IQs than normal people.A lot are artists, musicians, creative people.
When I get into my 'zone' I can work intensely for hours without being aware of anything else around me.
A:)
Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
he he he For a bunch of SMART people,it sure has taken ya'll a long time to figuire out that WE were born with these traits FOR A REASON! Geez even OP has come pretty close to the realization. Read it yourself and decide. EXODUS 31:1-6 (Holy Bible) Unles you are a scientist or government official
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Laura
Although I am not medicated, you described me too, as far as the knowing a little about many subjects etc. I'd like to add that I too would rather be this way, and that most people enjoy the diversity.
Hiring a talented focused person helps balance where I lack. My wife is always telling me to "focus" or "write it down" You have given me hope in knowing I am not the only one who simply cannot.
My cleaning lady came in last night and totally messed up the "system" on my desk,
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I was reading up on the subject and found out that one of the side effects was the extending of one's arm. Apparently useful for patting oneself on the back and reinforcing how creative and smart they are. Posted by Sharon Bigler (Member # 2203) on :
I was diagnosed a year ago with Adult ADD. My business partner is classic ADD. I decided to go on Adderall because my inability to focus was costing us business! Believe me, I hate taking pills since I watched my mom almost kill herself because she became addicted to prescription drugs. But, it's all a matter of common sense. If my day isn't too busy, I don't take the pill...real simple. Lord do I wish I'd had this drug when I was in high school because beer doesn't have the same effect:-) My son is also ADD and wasn't diagnosed until last year when he was 29 years old. It's a strange thing for sure.
Posted by Ben Bolt (Member # 3634) on :
Interesting topic and discussion... It bothers me that the numbers for this are so high... 15% of americans are ADD/ADHD? That sounds like they should take the word disorder out of it because it is completely normal. I agree that there are some cases that are extreme and serious - where drugs are helpful and necessary, but the rest of us need to learn to function in our society and not accept drugs to make us like everyone else. Who really want to be a sheep anyway? I love Kelly's theory about why our nation has been historically creative and progressive... makes sense to me.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
heres a real revelation. we all hear about the "shakey jakes", "joe wino" signpainter of of the 50's and 60's......and guess what..since ADD/ADHD wasnt one of the "buzz words" or the drug company hadnt introduced it to the world....i now know why all these GUYS WERE DRUNKS OR POT HEADS!!!! they were all ADD/ADHD!!!!! they needed some drug to slow em down so they could focus.........with all my years in AA/NA 2 words keep popping in my head...denile and rationalize.....oh gee i might be ADD/ADHD...since i say what i think....hehehehehehe
[ July 24, 2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Actually OP you may be right on! ADD/ADHD people do tend to self medicate and the two most common means were alcohol and drugs. They also tend to have very addictive personalities. Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
another thought from AA/NA...is LABELING......with all the new "labels", you dont have to admit to the real problem......and if you ARE an adictive personality......then substiuting a drug "prescribed" by a doctor in place of "self-medicating" makes it ok.....ahhhhh that solves the problem.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
OP you make a strong point, and I agree with you. I have never used alcohol or drugs to "self medicate" as I believe in moderation w/alcohol. If in fact someone suffers from ADD/ADHD, they are still responsible to control themselves and do what is right. It is NOT an excuse for bad behavoir or to abuse family or employees
Posted by Robert Richards (Member # 3244) on :
I don't believe there is really such a thing as ADD or ADHD. It's just that some people are eaisly bored or are more hyper thasn others. The teachers didn't have the time to deal with hyper active childen and found a way out with Ridlin. Don't believe in giving kids drugs to slow down their thinking either.
Guess that ticked some of you off, but that's my opinion. I've been around a lot of years and in my day a good paddling kept you in line. Oh yeah that would be child cruelty today.
Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
My dad used to say "Do as I say, not as I do". I still do what he did, but now I am saying it to my kids and friends. I don't practice what I share of knowledge. Maybe because I am still human and don't have as much self discipline as I would like to, or it's a procrastination thing....
but, I agree with OP! Been keeping my kids off the food colorings, flavorings and preservatives...some people are just very sensitive to things and some aren't. But, it is worth a try to seek out the natural things before seeking drugs, expensive doctors, beating yourself up, etc...It worked for my second child since he was borderline hyperactive. Fresh foods, chemical free, reduced sugar intake (and yes, fruit is fructose, milk is lactose, etc.). It may not be cured with food, but, until you've tried it, don't knock it. Maybe it will reduce the need for one's body to have the quick fix. Drugs always drain the body of something vital and ruin the immune system, setting you up for future problems.. there is so much info out there now. What do you eat? Apple juice, fresh or frozen veggies and fruits (watch the salicylates in oranges and nectarines), fresh or frozen fish, even check out any places that sell free range chickens and then ask what they feed the chickens! There are ways to do this on a budget, and there are ways to help the youngsters at school when there are parties with koolaid, etc. Just bring apple juice in ahead of time. What price could you put on peace of mind? Frozen fresh fruit juices make great popsicles, btw. Teach them young and set the example for them. Laura, if that is what you are using, and it helps you, of course, you know what works for you. And, when you have time, search out some good things that are easy to make or buy (or maybe you do!) I know we all have to do what works for us immediately, but there is always hope to find another way that doesn't take it's toll on our bodies. And, maybe, just maybe I'll get my act together and get my act together instead of just talk about it! Hope to connect with you soon.
Posted by Jeremy Vecoli (Member # 2278) on :
OP, I'm glad AA has worked for you. I have often heard the line "without AA, I'd be dead!", spoken quite sincerely. That's a pretty serious claim. I drink very rarely, and can honestly say I have NEVER been legally drunk (some day, I hope...). Yet I once had an AA-er seriously tell me I was a "dry drunk", and my sobriety was not real because it did not evolve from a 12-step program. Is this a normal comment to hear?
I remember that AA's first step is to admit being powerless over alcohol. Would it be OK for someone with ADD to say the same thing about ADD? From what I have seen of the ADD comments, ("tough it out, just apply yourself, you can do it) they seem to go against the AA theory of powerlessness to fix yourself. Would you agree?
I have heard AA is starting to be criticized for practices which could be construed as psychological intimidation, due its underlying claim that their program is the only proven way to sobriety, and leaving the program was dooming yourself. "Unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant"- AA's founder Bill Wilson. I was surprised to hear that- Is this AA as you understand it? Do you really need to keep going forever?
This how it was explained to me by writer Paul Roasberry: "At some point, if you begin to question this "program" of A.A.'s, the talk gets tough and they start to lean on you. You are told that you can never recover on your own, that you are doomed to lapse over and over again into drinking binges, or at best, become a "dry drunk."
"The more you try to trot out examples of persons who have transformed their own lives under their own steam, the more the party line is thrown back at you: you are powerless against drink. Powerless. Any so-called examples of alcoholics who quit drinking without the twelve steps are in reality only examples of "dry drunks."
Do they really say things like this?
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Yes, Jeremy, AA really does say those things. Some people wear their sobriety like a crown. Some people keep it to themselves.
Next time I am in the Cities, I will give you a call. You can bring the flying squirrels out...
Posted by Jeremy Vecoli (Member # 2278) on :
Definitely look me up, We also have a chipmunk living in our bedroom (usually, but not always, in a cage) along with all the flying squirrels downstairs. I don't think I will be bringing them to Tomahawk, however. Keeping this on topic, I have ADD big time and I'm sure it is why I gravitated towards this field. I never was into art as a kid, but something about sign painting made the light bulb go off over my head.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
jeremy, i dont know what or where you have been with AA, BUT its like anything else, if you arent involved and are getting information from dissatisfied people, and you belive "hear say" then thats what it is. as for what bruce says...thats his opinion. ive heard the same type of stuff about MASONS.most of that is simply IGNORANCE. AA....IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT TO BE!!!! take as much as you need and can use then get on with your life. if you feel the need to go for the rest of your life, so be it. if you can "maintane sobrity and healty lifestyle" without AA/NA good for you. the great thing about AA/NA is it helps an ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY to become aware of their limitation...and what they can do to improve them selves. AND IT IS FREE above all. so their is no chance that if you go to a meeting, that you will ever hear what you want to hear....as you would if youre paying a shrink. also it helps keep you drug(scrip or self prescribed)FREE. if you have ever been hooked on scrips(i was) that the doctors told me i needed to keep me calm so i didnt hurt anyone.....then you will understand why i talk the way i do about doctors/psycotic drugs. i speak from experiance and not what i have been told!!! remember this.."belive half of what you see...and none of what you hear." this will help a lot. as for someone calling you "dry drunk", i dont know you personally, have never had any conversations with you. i know a lot of dry drunks, my definition of that is a guy who goes to meetings and will tell you hes been c/s for 450 day, 17 hours and 12 min!!!! and he is just lookin for a reason to go drink again. also most dry drunks i know have a really bad problem with "control over others" and an inflated opinion of their own "self worth", egomania, prone to anger quickly if called on something they said, or just to assert their control, they dont have relationships, they take hostages. there are a few of them here(some are still drinking/smokin (thats an addiction also)..no i wont give names they know who they are, but if they are ever in an AA/NA meeting iam in, then I WILL call em on their B.S behavior. HONESTY abounds in a meeting, so if you go in their like your superman and "weller" then anyone, someone will point that out, and then you need to deal with it. will also help you to be able to take "responibilty" for your actions! also you meet some great people there, and true friends for life. also AA/NA will keep you humble, as it reminds us(who have a lot of years)that we are no better then the guy who is their for his 1st meeting....because we were, and can be in that same chair tomarrow....and always... what goes on in a meeting stays there!!!!and live it.... one day at a time.
[ July 25, 2003, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Oh, Joe... why the personal attacks here? Why do you often take things to such a personal level? Someone dares to have actual knowledge of something that differs from yours and it is insinuations and back biting...
You are right, Joe. No one at AA ever said that stuff. Nope. No one. Ever. It's all just like you said. You are the most enlighted one of us all. We're not worthy.
Are you saying that only you have a working knowledge of NA/AA meetings? Pull your enlighted head out of your ass.
Posted by Nancie W. Phillips (Member # 3484) on :
OK you guys...calm down! Life's too short for personal attacks. When you belittle...then you be little. I was diagnosed w/ADHD-primarily inatentive several years back. But I've come to the same conclusion that many others have. It's really not a 'disability', but a 'different ability'. Personal responsibility maybe unfasionable in our culture today, but it's still the right thing to do. Having ADD/ADHD is NOT an excuse for bad behavior...we all have the power of choice...and we're all going to be held accountable for our choices. I'm with Kissy on this one...I wouldn't change the way I'm wired to be considered more 'normal'. God made me and He can transform my weaknesses into blessings (with my willingness involved) and make them useful if He sees it neccessary. I also have my opinions about how we nourish ourselves and a connection with ADD/ADHD...but that's another (and maybe a contraversial)post... -Nancie
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
personal attack? where....the only thing i said in response to your post was.... 'that was your opinion. and you are welcome to that." as i said i have heard from people who are not a mason, tell me all the wild stories about what they heard masons do. very similar to the stuff jeromey heard about AA/NA. as for the use of the word IGNORANCE, i was refering to the people who belive the crap they hear about things they dont know anything about,ex. MASONS, AA/NA, ODD FELLOWS, ECT. anything else in the post was not directed AT you. now if you have taken anything else in that post personal, then you ......DO HAVE A PROBLEM. all was typed as "general information" to jeromeys question. as for my working knowledge of AA/NA, yea id say i got a lot more then most, 28 years since i was introduced to AA/NA. have been active in on one way or another, and as i said, in all my years , i have never heard that stuff in a meeting or from an active/happy participant of AA/NA, that jeromey said. YES i have heard that stuff from people who went back to drinking. as for you and AA/NA i dont know what you have done with it. when i saw you in commerace ga. you were drinking beer.......and thats not something you do if your in AA. now thats personal observation.....if you have a drinking problem iam not aware of it and never was, and if you do then you might try a meeting. as for you not being worthy, the only one you need that confermation from is your god, and iam nothing but one of his children. now i dont know what your problem is, wish i could help you, but i sure wish you would also have a ..... cranial/rectile extraction. ol thumper the rabbit said it best..."if you aint got somethin nice to say, dont say nothin at all." and you dont sorta grasp that concept. have a nice day....
[ July 27, 2003, 04:59 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Some interesting data,,,
We need two fats for our health. Omega 6 from regualar vegatable oils and omega 3 from cold water seafood. They must be balanced.
Omega 3 is a food product that our american diet is sorely lacking. Our diets are not balanced between O6 and O3 .
There are three major types of omega 3 fatty acids that are ingested in foods and used by the body:
One is alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) (from flax seed oil) Once eaten, the body converts ALA to EPA and DHA, the two types of omega-3 fatty acids more readily used by the body.
the other two are eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). (fish products)
Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) Children with ADHD may have low levels of certain essential fatty acids (including EPA and DHA) in their bodies. In a study of nearly 100 boys, those with lower levels of omega-3 fatty acids demonstrated more learning and behavioral problems (such as temper tantrums and sleep disturbances) than boys with normal omega-3 fatty acid levels. Studies that examine the ability of omega-3 supplements to improve symptoms of ADHD are still needed. At this point in time, eating foods high in omega-3 fatty acids is a reasonable approach for someone with ADHD and is showing real promise. There is much research going on at the local Oschner clinics concerning this and there is evidence that it is working in some of the more severe cases studied.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
I started reading these posts gpt bored ate supper, got bored, came to post here.........and never finshed this project haha
sign me up I have adult add if there is such a thing, DOc wanted me to try pills, nope not for me, I like me after 37 years dont want to change things now. lol
[ July 27, 2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Well, we like you, too, Bob...
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Well, this tread has certainly had it's fair share..... did someone say... Hi BOB!!!!! so anyway, Bruce, like I was saying....um.... be right back
back......oops, this ain't the chat room....sorry.
I guess I should edit this post. Maybe later. I gotta do something else right now, but I'm not sure what it was.
Sometimes when things get a little too serious, you gotta let the funny out.
Having a midlife crisis and loving every minute of it! Rapid
Posted by DONALD THOMPSON (Member # 3726) on :
I think alot of the problems with kids nowadays could be coming from the steroids used on animals. I remember when girls began to develop at about age 15-16, now it is 10-12. I just got back from a mission trip in Brasil yesterday, and someone told me there that a milk cow will produce only a certain amount of milk in their lifetime, no matter how long they live. Now they inject the cows with cancer to make them produce more milk faster, because their bodies now they are going to die sooner. This, if true, is rediculous. I enjoy animals. I think they are delicious, but America has gone overboard.
Posted by David Lexington (Member # 3693) on :
I was going to try to stay out of this and see where it went. But... I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how many here meet 12 of the traits listed above. Forget being labled or using a crutch or making excuses.
I am wondering if there is a higher propensity of people who meet the criteria of what some people call ADD, in our profession then there is in the general public.
I would think there is as there are so many thoughtful, creative and intelligent people who call letterville home?
Thanks for your answers. I notice alot of them come at all hours of the night.. Could insomnia or be another trait?
This could prove to be very interesting.
Maybe we could post a poll?
Posted by Jeremy Vecoli (Member # 2278) on :
I definitely have ADD, and it is a matter of brain chemistry. If you do have it, it is in your best interest to acknowledge it, learn about it, find ways to work around it and learn to be aware of when it is interfering with your goals. ADD can be a goal-stealer; you get fascinated with, and distracted by, things that are truly not important, and that time is lost forever. People with ADD crave (because of brain chemistry, sometimes a norepinephrine or other neurotransmitter issue) constant, immediate, short-term stimulation; physical, visual, mental, artistic, whatever it takes to stay awake. (this is why stimulants are sometimes prescribed) This can interfere to varying degrees with goals you have chosen as a rational adult. (pay that stack of bills, keep a steady job, be an attentive spouse/parent, save for retirement)
My income has SKYROCKETED since I had meds available if I feel the need for help focusing on dull, but important things, and I seem to have a lot more free time to enjoy my home life & hobbies.
If meds really help, take them. Not everyone needs them. There is a lot of macho pride here about "not solving your problems with pills". I dare you to take that approach if your thyroid acts up or you have allergies or high blood pressure. If meds help your kid sit still long enough to learn reading can be fun, I can almost guarantee your kid will end up smarter than you.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Sorry Jeremy, not buying it. I am glad you feel your brain chemistry is helped by meds, but too many people feel their impulses and bad feelings can be helped by self medicating or with the help of doctors.
Now we live in an age when you are ecouraged to take a pill for sadness, anxiety, social problems etc. In the long run learning to overcome these on your own is the only real solution. If a person drinks to overcome these problems, they need a 12 step program, but somehow prescription drugs administered my a physician is ok. Don't believe it.
Posted by Jeremy Vecoli (Member # 2278) on :
I'll believe it all the way to the bank, sport. My net take-home income last month was a much greater influence for me than any amount of shame you direct towards those who are "weak" and take medication.
I bet there are people here who have serious depression and take antidepressants and gladly endure the side effects for a halfway normal life. There is nothing wrong with feeling sad or anxious, when it happens for a reason. When your brain chemistry is out of whack, it happens all the time for NO reason. You can't "snap out of it", any more than you can snap out of a toothache. People literally kill themselves in severe cases. I suspect you think that is more honorable than medication. Reality exists independent of your perception of it, and brain chemistry science does not require your acceptance or belief, to offer help to others.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
David:
Booze and drugs unfortunately bring some sort of escape to those who haven't found better answers. They don't help people cope or lead a more fullfilling, productive life.
On the other hand -- for many -- "meds" do.
For people with one form of mental illness or another nothing else they've tried has helped.
This being said, I understand (and to some extent share) your cynicism with "liberal" diagnosis and prescription. As a society, I think we are all too willing to deal with symptoms, rather than with the complexty of causes which more often than not cannot see their effects.
[ July 29, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
I passed the test, I must have ADD too. But I don't have any vices like pot or booze, or smoking or any medications to try to control it.
I seem to have done what others here have done, and used it to my advantage in life's pursuits.
However, this explains why sometimes on this board one of my posts can be very helpful, and another can come off with bitterness, and I don't seem to understand the difference.
One thing I do notice in my area, the majority of the successful business people( very rich) are owned be people with ADD. While they are very successful, they are impossible to work with, disorganized, disfunctional, making their employees angry at every turn and keeping them confused, they are slow paying, quick to change sign shops because of something they don't like about they way you smiled at them or some dumb thing similar to that.
Wouldn't it be funny, though, that the people who do not have ADD have some other undiscovered mental problem that makes them so un-ADD and they go the other end of the spectrum? Posted by Jim Upchurch (Member # 209) on :
I read an article in a nutrition magazine yesterday and the gal claimed all the ADD and ADHD cases she saw were food or allergy related. Most of the problems with the kids was the sugar in the diet, lack of excercise, etc. Were all these symptoms misdiagnosed in the past or are some in the medical profession cashing in while the going is good?
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
well this has been interesting, I for one DO have add and have been diagnosed, although I am reluctant to take meds till I fully understand it by reading books on it, Of course because of my add I keep putting off buying said books and of course I will have to read them twice because while reading them I will be thinking of ten other things of interest. Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Bob, there is a book that I found to be tremendously helpful in terms with insight into ADD. It is in workbook format so it is easy to break into small sessions - although if you are ADD you'll probably read the whole thing in one sitting, because you'll be so interested in the answers within. It really has some good info. not only for ADD, but for everyone, because I believe we all have the same issues - just to different extremes. I'm going to list the Chapters here so you can get an idea of the contents. 1 - Intro 2- Strengths and Weaknesses 3- Getting Started - Commit to Change 4- Self Esteem - Put Criticism in it's Place 5- Rational Thinking - Get a Handle on Automatic Thoughts 6- Focusing - Plan, Structure and Persevere in your Task 7- Finishing 8- Mood Management 9- Impulsivity - Recognizing why and when you lose control 10- Learning Skills - Identifying and building on what you have 11- Social Skills - Improving relationships with others by improving knowledge of yourself 12- Final Points Anyway, it is called "Living With ADD - A Workbook for Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder" and is co-written by M. Susan Roberts and Gerard J. Jansen Try very hard to read this one from front to back, because if you have ADD you likely start at the back of the book! It amazes me how some people can be so judgmental of others. If someone here feels that medication is beneficial to their life then what is the problem. Until you have lived in their minds you have no idea of what they do or don't need. If you research the subject you will find alot of valid information on the subject. If you have no reason to research it then just live and let live. Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
iam with david & bob here. we live in a society that is "instant gratifaction", and fix it with a pill. i was diagnosed as "manic depressive" with suicidal tendancies(1975)after admitting myself to a psych ward. now theres a mouthful of garbage. for this i was given THORIZINE, HALDOL, COJANTEN, and so i wasnt a total catatonic, they(doctors) added mood elevators, ALIVILE, TRIVILE. and a few others i dont remember. now on top of this already leathal congogtion i added thru "self medication" QUALUDES, LIBRIUM, VALIUM, and with all this medication in my body i still couldnt get a full 8 hours of sleep. at best i got 4!!!!!! yea the pills did a lot for me. i dont disagree that there are some medical problems(said medical, not psych) and that some pills help those conditions. most psych problems at that time were being treated with minerals LITHIUM & STELIZINE. these are natural chemicals the body sometimes dont have enough of, hence the term chemical imbalance. another word for ADD is "SIDETRACKABILTY", this discribes most of us,some are worse then others. you start to do one thing, see something else that grabs your attention and you move to it and the cycle continues. this i learned in a rehab center i went to after my 28 days in the psych ward. there i got drug free, and AA was all that was available at that time. NA didnt come into being until the 80's. now without drugs, and "seeing thru clear eyes," and getting to the real problems in my life, and solving them one at a time, made my life a 1000% better. without any drugs!!!!! i dont say that all who have been diagnosed as ADD....arent. all iam saying for your own well being, get a 2nd opinion, also exhaust all other methods of treatment 1st! pick up a PDR sometime, and find the drug you are taking, look at the side effects.......and after that, if drugs are the only way then so be it. now i might be a little OCD, on this no drugs approch. drugs are partly the reason iam a vegitarian, no sodas, non smoker, non drinker, homopathic, chinese medicine user. i also believe foods cause most of your other problems. so i may be a little over cautious, but iam happy with the way i live, if your happy in yours thats ok to.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Interesting subject, and interesting posts. Not real familiar with it from a first-hand point of view.
Reading up on it in the newest version of the Merck Manual. Three pages of VERY fine print, not all of which I understand.
Mostly the diagnosis seems to be made on the basis of observation and history, and often these come from untrained and therefore unreliable sources. Also, the behaviors that are being looked for to establish a diagnosis don't readily show up in the so-called clinical setting. The book goes on to say that "no particular signs or set of neurologic indicators is specific, and no specific test has been validated. Organic factors may have a role, but the primary signs are behavioral, varying with situation and time. ADD often cannot be distinguished from other behavioral disorders."
In other words, traditional Western medicine has a tough time diagnosing and treating ADD.
The book says a lot more on the subject, mostly on prognosis, drug treatment (or not) and counselling.
FWIW.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
I have lots of kid clients in one of my endeavors. About 10% of them come in with the ADD / traits. A very small handfull are really in trouble. Then, there is a large amount of them who are medicated and you can tell they really need it. You will observe their behavior and focus change after giving them their meds. Then there is a few that are using it because the parents just dont have the skills needed to direct the behavior of their kids. I can personally vouch for the number who really need it. And, I will invite anyone to come see for themselves what those in the know really understand. In my experience i will not be the one to tell anyone that the meds which brought out a positive life of a person in true need that the meds are just a crutch..
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Sorry but I don't buyinto any of this self serving crap....you can get a Merck manual or a DSM and make checklists for every disease/syndrome known to mankind and present yourself as symptomatic to all of them. Is it a legitimate excuse for children under 17-19 who haven't learned how to act/not act or whats expected of them in life? Yes...but at 30,40 or more when you have a mortgage,a buisness a marriage and kids or any combination there of... you didn't enter into any of these things involuntarily..you knew they brought obligations upon you and obligations mean sometimes having to do things you don't want to, and if you can't muster up the self discipline to buckle yourself down and do what you know has to be done in order to fulfill those obligations, you dont have ADD ADHD ABC Mickey Mouse or any other cute alphabet synopsis of the situation...you're being lazy and complacent and you're content to be that way and glad to find some alphabetical excuse to justify it...and since we now live in an age where personal responsibility and accountability is out and blaming someone else/something else is in it's really not surprising,as long as the blame can be passed onto someone else everything is wonderful and so are we and you give yourself an excuse to continue you the behavior......absolutely amazing how when someones back is really up against the wall they don't seem to have any difficulty at all rising to the occasion and meeting the challenge by doing whatever is is they need to get it done and they suddenly aren't a victim of any syndrome anymore.....Argue,cry,whine, post here or whatever...but if you can give yourself the the focus to sit and look it up online,read countless websites and books on the subject,then you can give yourself the focus to do what you need to do each and every day.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
quote:you dont have ADD ADHD ABC Mickey Mouse or any other cute alphabet synopsis of the situation...you're being lazy and complacent and you're content to be that way and glad to find some alphabetical excuse to justify it...and since we now live in an age where personal responsibility and accountability is out and blaming someone else/something else is in it's really not surprising,as long as the blame can be passed onto someone else everything is wonderful and so are we and you give yourself an excuse to continue you the behavior
But Gavin - what's got you so ruffled - I reread the posts here and I don't see anyone making excuses about not getting work done - I see good people being positive and dealing with certain shortcomings in the best way they know how.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Have to wonder where the snit about the Merck came from too. Remember? I was involved in health care for a long time, and even though I have been away from it for almost as long, I am still interested.
That having been said, the only reason I refer to Merck is when I don't know much about what is being discussed, but I do know where to go to find answers---or, at least as much as I can understand.
Am also not sure if you're attacking me or not---I don't think so. I didn't say I had the problem---just looking for information that might help somebody else.
Will continue to do so----if that's all right with everybody.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
yah Gavin
And your not being judgemental, assuming, uncompassionate, non understanding, closeminded and projecting, your just suffering from A S S
Where did u get your phd at Screw U?
Posted by David Lexington (Member # 3693) on :
Hey Gavin, over eight years I served in Panama, the Gulf, Somalia, and Bosnia with Delta Force. One of the things we constantly reminded ourselves is that we were fighting to preserve and promote freedom. There were times, that thouoght alone was the only way to cope the horrors we were witness to. For that reason alone I respect your right to speech, as many men greater than you or I died fighting to protect that right for you.
I don't have to agree with your view but out of respect for those who gave their lives (some close friends of mine)so you can have the freedom to go online and express your opinions without worry or fear of recourse, I have to ask you to change your quote.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
David, after your reading your last post I have to ask if this somehow your way of demonstrating what you are talking about. Quite honestly, I can't follow the logic and non-sequitor nature of your comments. Free speech and remove Gavin's quote? Please explain. It did get me look up the source of the quote and find out some acts of heroism I was unaware of.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Bill saying MERCK nor anything in the post had absolutely qnyhting do with you i refered to it b/c you did. Kelly sorry you think this has me "ruffled"...what i said wasn't anymore out of line than anyone else who disagreed with what you said,i'm just the last one that replied so i was an easy target for a rebuttal.
Bob.....funny I didn't mention you in what i posted yet you chose to attack me and i guess by spacing it out noone would realize you called me an A S S.....funny how youre name didnt come up yet you chose to make it about you and i'm the one projecting...OK
David Lexington.....about the quote......it's been under my name for going on 2.5 yrs and has absolutely nothing to with my views on whats posted here...I'm sure you noticed by now many people on this forum and others use quotes they feel are inspirational or whatever...sorry but thats mine and it's mine for a reason....the very second that request went out those 2 guys who 80% of the world never heard of and were content to have it that way displayed more courage,more personal values,more honor and a higher level of commitment to a cause than 99.9% of the people on this planet ever will...and the reason they did it is because someone had to try..they didn't do it to have everyone slap their backs and tell em how wonderful they were,and given the chance they'd do it all over again,and sorry but thats worthy of the utmost respect,it's the ultimate example of living your life to a value system...and if you truly were an eagle,you'll understand that and you'll be proud that someone gave two craps about them. I have no problem discussing this more but it will not be here...you email me at
zeeman40@hotmail.com
and we can discuss it till we're outta both dis and cuss...now lets let them get back to the task of demonizing me and piling on b/c i spoke up on this post.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
delta force....and your ADD???? gee a guy with a gun on drugs.....sounds smart to me.....many more like you in delta force? how many policemen out there with guns and ADD???? thats scary!!!!.. i think gavin is sayin same thing iam sayin...if you can atribute you bad behavior to some kinda medical origin, and take a pill to fix it then YOU ARENT RESPONSIBLE and are now a victim of your(medical problem) bad behavior.
[ July 29, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Boy..Fer a post about ADD there sure a lot of folks who are posting who are NOT ADD affected!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Talk about beating a dead horse and talk about "Attention Dedicated Dysfunction"!!!!
LOL LOL LOL
Posted by David Lexington (Member # 3693) on :
Joe, I never said I was medicated. Fortunately I never had the problems you do and had to resort to any substance abuse. I sip the occasional herbal tea but that’s it. Taking part in illegal drug use would be weak and irresponsible. Treating a medical condition whether it is high blood pressure, Diabetes, ADD or anything else is not a weakness or an excuse. Recognizing you have a problem and doing something about in order to prevent continued problems is the responsible thing to do. Taking a pharmaceutical to prevent an ailment is not the same as hiding from the truth through use of illegal narcotics. Did you get you shots when you were a kid? Do you take an aspirin for a pain or get a tetanus shot for a severe cut or take an antibiotic to prevent the spread of infection when your sick?
As far as guns and drugs.
You would probably be surprised at the percentage of Special Forces soldiers who would have many traits and characteristics as those used to profile ADD. Part of the admission process is a battery of personality tests, similar to those used by developmental resource facility to test for ADD/ADHD. There is actually now a Brain Scat done that shows brain activity. The fact of the matter is “normal” people don’t get into the program. Without the assets that these “traits” provide the average person’s chemical make up would cause a behavior not unlike a nervous breakdown when **** hit the fan.
I don’t think it is a coincidence that there is not one documented case of a person who suffers from Post Traumatic Stress disorder that is also diagnosed ADD.
Now, I don’t know about the civilian police force but I’ve spent some time training with The Security Forces (Military Police). They are subjected to personality test as well but not the degree of testing one must undergo to be accepted into a special forces unit. As far as drug use. It is extremely rare in special forces units. .005% or something ridicules when compared to the general public.
Knowing the characteristics of people who fit the “profile”, I was curious as to what the percentage would be here as compared to the general public or the Special Forces, or Prisoners (estimated 80 plus percent) or other groups.
It seems some people took a real offense to the question. I wonder why?
Posted by Mike Pulskamp (Member # 3475) on :
David, I counted 15 out of 20. Thanks
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Gavin,
how can I not make it about me? its not JUST me but I did take some of your remarks to heart
I'm starting to see some validity to the whole adult ADD thing myslef, stuff that all my life for myself, I struggled with like organzation for example. I work on it constantly, and I mean it is the same struggle on a daily basis, I also have a difficult time focusing on most things that are laborious. Am I lazy? for the most part no I can be at times but this does not fall under that catagory. Because if I find something intersting and I can work till 3 in the morning on it. Hell I dont even take the same route somewhere all the time, it bores me.
As it reads here in this thread quite a few others seem to have similar traits, They affect thier lives, Some to the extent of trying medication to solve the problem. So my post was more about US, as I do not personally know enough about ADD to classify myself with it, So a doctor has said I DO have it. I don't beleive him, not enough to take meds yet.
you are so correct when you say we live in a day and age when society wants to blame and take no responsibilty, but we also live in a day where we know more and can recognize some behaviors as medical shortcomings that are genetic.
To blame it on genetics is not wrong as long as you recognize it and work towards a positive solution, whether it be meds or knowledge. Now to sit and whine and blame your parents for the dna can be lazy & irresponsible blah blah blah. lets use an old AA analogy... if you think it is just self discipline, next time you get diahrrea, use your self discline to stop it, dont take any ant acid or pepto bismal, just good old fashioned self control ought to do it.
by generalizing and saying in your post that people who feel they have ADD are just lazy and complacent and looking to blame thier shortcomings on someone or somethings is being an @$$ plain and simple, there is no projection here from me, you said, I called you on it.
The reason I spaced it out is that I wanted it to show up, the BB filters it out it normal context.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
dave i was in the service 65-73....you said you were ADD as a child. so iam aware of service requirements. as for taking drugs that are prescribed....if you believe you are sick then take them. i have been drug free, i say this meaning i take no drugs prescibed or other wise. not many can say that!!! i stated in a prior post that i prefer to take responibilty for my actions and behaviour. i have a functional brain and it can keep me on track...without any medication. yes i did the doctors presciptions, and they were wrong. this is how i prefer it to be. like i said before if you belive you are not stong minded enought to move thru lifes daily chores... then let the doctors keep you medicated.....and bob....how long do you take the pepto.....for the rest of your life? because you had diareha one day?
[ July 30, 2003, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Bob #1 you can make it not about you b/c nowhere in what i posted did it say bob rochon please look here b/c this is for you and you only.... if you wanna differ in opinions thats fine with me,i dont share yours and you dont share mine,coupla points are similar......hey thats life...but unless i personally go after you don't turn tables and tell me to kiss a*s,call me an a*s,tell me to go screw myself or anything else just b/c you don't like what i said.....can't comment on the rest never had the need to go to AA
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Ok
2 can play this game
I dont buy into this crap either people who generalize and say things like
quote:you dont have ADD ADHD ABC Mickey Mouse or any other cute alphabet synopsis of the situation...you're being lazy and complacent and you're content to be that way and glad to find some alphabetical excuse to justify it...and since we now live in an age where personal responsibility and accountability is out and blaming someone else/something else is in it's really not surprising,as long as the blame can be passed onto someone else everything is wonderful and so are we and you give yourself an excuse to continue you the behavior
are just plain talking out their butt with no concideration, understanding, openmindedness and knowledge of the situation.
There! now its not about anyone in specific, no names mentioned here
ps. you dont have to go to AA to have diareha. And Joe, dont mudd the waters, I used that anaolgy to relate to a medical condition that is treated best with medication, and cannot be controled by will power. You cant compare the two for they are different conditions.
[ July 30, 2003, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Nancie W. Phillips (Member # 3484) on :
Hey David...I kinda got sucked into the thread and didn't answer your question. SO...I went back and 'took the test'. I deal with 11 out of 20, but that figure has been much higher for me. I've grown alot and have learned to overcome alot of stuff that was on that list. Some of that stuff is very positive...like being creative and intelligent. BTW...my son would probably LOVE to meet you. He's REALLY into military stuff (he's almost 10). Would you have a problem with him emailing you sometime? He's away from home currently, but with your okay I'll tell him about you and see if he wants to contact you. Lemme know...
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Hmmmmmmm... Brain Scat... kinda says it all... Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
So basically, if I read your test correctly, a person could be ADD if:
A. Yo aren't a neat-freak who has kept every bill, receipt, ticket stub and claim check they ever got in a color-coordinated filing system.
B. You are not easily convinced, or automatically agree with, anyone who plays to your emotions and predjudices, skillfully telling you just what you want to hear.
C. You don't have that touching faith in authority which allows you to believe McDonalds hamburgers are nutritious, the cars and beer make you have more sex, that wetness, dryness, and personal odors are a life-and-death crisis, and that the guy from the government really is here to help you.
C. You bore easily; in other words, faced with network TV sitcoms, radio stations that play the same twenty "classic rock" hits in the same order at the same time of day every day, you go looking for something interesting.
D. You are "creative and highly intelligent", as opposed to dull, dumb as a bagfull of hammers, and don't mind doing the same mind-numbing bullshyt every day for thirty years.
E. Trouble going through established channels, in other words, not willing to kiss some lazy, overpaid bureaucrat's fat pimply a s s for a permit to do exactly what you are supposed to do in the first place.
F. Trouble with authority: You have been known to say something other than "Gee, Mr. Policeman, thank you SO much for ticketing me for going 38 in a 35mph zone on an empty street at 2am."
There's more, but what it comes down to is this: We live in a culture where anyone who questions authority, who's not willing to be robbed, lied to and treated like a faceless number while being told its good for them, is considered a threat to the established collectivist order of things, and is therefore mentally ill. You, or your kid, is not a dull, slogging, conformist? You have a mind of your own, and actually use it? In public? You must have a disease, and need medicine.
Guess I must be one sick muthafukka.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Hahahhahaaaa...Cam....yer not being Politically Korrekt!
Conform...or perish!
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Thanks Cam. I was just calling my quirky ways ADD, but you had to go prove I really do have ADD.
Now I'm gonna have to go try to concentrate long enough to decide if my having ADD is a bad thing.
What was I talking about?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
It's no news that drugs are being perscribed every day for things which people should just deal with. It is also very true that many drugs are attempts to synthetically, or otherwise recreate chemicals created in our own brains & bodies.
Obviously the wrong "drug" or combination of drugs, or the wrong dosage can lead a person into a much worse place then they would have been without medication.
On the other hand, there are countless situations where a genuine chemical imbalance exists at no fault of the patient. No amount of "just say no" philosophy, or "Doctors are greedy thieves" mentality changes the fact that some peoples brains are already on "drugs" before they seek treatment, & proper medication finally improves their life making their brain comparatively "drug-free".
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
thanks cam...but i think the rest of ya aint ADD...YOUR ALL OCD AND ANAL RETENTIVE!!!!
Posted by Larry Elliott (Member # 263) on :
Today I could answer yes to the majority of the questions and then tomorrow maybe only a few, am I a part-time ADD sufferer? We all have better days and whether its a syndrome or something in our diet can make lots of differences. Personally, I am alergic to chocolate, I love it and could eat a pound of M&M's right now but I know I can't without having problems with irritability and a short temper. It took years to understand why I would go into a ranting, cursing, foot-stomping and sometimes violent moods. Through self-analyses, trial and error I finally narrowed down the mood swings to diet and found that chocolate was the main culprit. I see people fill their kids with sugar, preservatives and junk food and then they wonder why Junior has behavioral problems. I tell them of my food allergies and they look at me like I'm an idiot (well I am in reality) but I do know that certain foods cause more mental problems than people will ever understand. So they put Junior on Ritalin and he goes up and down the mood ladder like a yo-yo. But,,, the doctors get a kickback from drug companies every time they write a scrip so Junior suffers the consequences when proper diet may have been the solution all along.
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too funny!![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Now I just write left-handed, but any other activity that has a "hand" I favor my right but I can use my left too. 
, I do resemble the things stated above. Like almost all of them. I don't have a problem with authority though. I love it.
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