When you buy a piece of equipment from a distrubutor as a "demo" what exactly does this mean to you?
So say that you find out that the "demo" piece of equipment really had a prior life, and that life was not just in the capable hands of a salesperson, rather, this piece of equipment really had lived in a sign shop prior to you buying this piece of equipment that was sold to you as a "demo", Then you find out that it was repossed, does this add fuel to the fire? You (at least I) would have to wonder how the equipment had been treated prior to being taked back, wouldn't you wonder too??
Would this upset you? What would you do? What if the President of the company faxed you a 2 + 1/2 page letter basically telling you to go pound sand, and his Manager that oversees your sales area just does not return phonecalls, and when he does, he does not bring any offers to the table to rectify this situation.
Would this be considered fraud? And if you found out via others, including past employees of the distributor that this happens "frequently" how do you think you might handle it?
Would it mean anything if you found out employees were leaving left & right?
Does this call for a civil suit?
Inquiring minds are, well, wondering.......
Thanks!
What if this piece of equipment had been looked over by the manafacturer of the equipment, would this make you forget that you were mislead?
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
That's not a demo. That's used equipment.
k31
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
A demo means it's the one used for demonstration purposes. No 2 ways about it. It should have been listed as repoed or factor refurbished (if it was, which it should be)
Don't know about the fraud part, call an attorney.
Is there a problem with it or are you just upset that it was suppost to be a demo, not a repo'ed machine?
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
To me a "demo" is something that has been used by a salesperson/demonstrator to show it's capabilities.
It has never been sold to, or owned by, an end user/customer.
It is finally sold with a full and complete warrantee.
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
Chris,
It's working OK. This whole deal came to light when I was looking to get warranty paperwork after a long time asking for it. when I bought the equipment a year ago, there was some debate as to the expiration of the warranty. I did not want to let it lapse.
The salesperson that I dealt with left the company. This is when I was informed from him that the paperwork had been processed, as far as he knew, he passed it up the line, so really it was out of his hands.
My plotter was supposed to come with the same warranty, and it currently is not under warranty, although the district manager (for a lack of better discription) insists it is, the manafacturer says it's not, and the President is telling me a different story via a fax. (He won't return my calls)
So....I have learned a lesson here. Am I just going to sweep it under the rug...nope!
I respect Pierre's opinion very much, and when he say's it's used, mister, I take what he says seriously!
So.....to drop the bomb here, the "equipment" I am referring to here is a Gerber Edge I. I will withhold the names of the involved parties for now, in hopes they will get their heads out of the sand (or other places) and step up to the plate.
So Gerber fans.....do yourself a favor, call gerber with your serial numbers.....do you know where your equipment has been??????
Chris, the big problem that I am having is this; it's not what I was sold. They knew it when the said it was something else, I was not informed it was a used machine, Gerber told me the history, and that's when my blood started to boil.....
[ July 18, 2003, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Michael Berry ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Thanks for clearing that up Michael. It doesn't change the fact that you were flat out lied to, but it would make matters stickier if there were a problem with it.
With a demo, the warranty should be the same as a brand new machine. The fact that there was debate about warranty is kinda scary.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Mike, I followed your other post, & I am in total agreement that everyone expects "demo" to mean the company you bought it from lightly used it as a floor model to demonstrate it, not that some default buyer may have put it though the paces in a demolition frame of mind at it's own eviction party before the repo man showed up.
Before you sue them, you should... wait thats too good an idea to waste here where they may read it. I'll email you instead. Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
Interesting... I would say you got hosed. They lied about the machine misrepresenting it's history. Period. That constitutes fraud in my book.
The fact that Gerber isn't stepping up to the plate does not surprise me in the least. I have heard many horror stories regarding Gerber.
We bought a factory refurbished cutter from Allen Datagraph. We were told that the machine carried a full two year factory warranty. This information came from the salesman and sales manager of AD themselves.
We had a problem with with the cutter 14 months after we bought the cutter. We were informed that factory refurbished cutters only had a one year warranty. We squawked big about this.
The company admitted they made a misstake and gave us the full two year warranty. They made it right. I was impressed in one way but satisfied that they did the right thing.
Gerber should be doing the same thing. The lack of concern on the part of all the parties involved with the deception is alarming. Sheesh. A warranty for one machine is going to end up costing them big.
This really making me think we ought to really reconsidering the purchase of the Edge machine we were thinking of. We have already stopped using their repackaged vinyl.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
EMPEACH EM....they lied to you..
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
My question is:
You negiotated and came to agreement on the price of a 'demo' unit, would you have paid the same price, or indeed, would you have bought a 'used' unit?
You did not get what you paid for -
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
My first plotter, which i paid for as brand new, was obviously either a return or demo. It looked a little used and there was no plastic envelope around it in the carton. So, when it arrived via UPS, it was covered in silica dust from the dirt road the UPS driver traveled down before he got to me. Either that or they had been sandblasting with it.
I sent it right back. The next one was brand new, sealed in plastic from the factory.
[ July 19, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Bruce,
Lets not blame who is not at fault, Gerber has no responsibilty to warranty a "used" machine that has not had a warranty purchased for.
Mike got sold a faulty bill of goods I say, he and I chatted about this and I am surprised he is not naming them.
Mike you could make them squirm by just saying it like it is here.
If the president of said company told me to pound sand, I'd have a nice post saying it like it is then I'd call him give him the url and tell him to have a happy read.
If I'm not mistaken, 8000 sign people visit here a day, you want to hurt em screw suing them, post about them.
Like Pierre says you machine was used and sold unethically.
But in my issue with a Company before I did the same as you, and I give you credit for being proffessional yourself.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Good Morning Michael. Based upon what you've revealed so far, there are two issues here. Firstly, there's the matter of what you were told about your purchase. That appears to be a complete lie and missrepresentation, if what you say is accurate.Secondly, there is the issue of "warranty", or rather, the lack of one. While some may take the viewpoint that Gerber bears no responsibility in this dispute, I tend to support your feeling that they must "share" some of the responsibility for what has happened so far.
When one cannot purchase DIRECTLY from a manufacturer, but must make that purchase through a distributor, then that manufacturer MUST INSURE the quality and integrity of those who they appoint as their distributors. It would appear that they haven't done their "due diligence" in this case, and are dodging their responsibility here.THEIR REPUTATION has been called into question by the actions of THEIR distributor that you dealt with, and the business ethics of that distributor will "rub off" onto the manufacturer....whether they like it or not.
If I were the Marketing Manager for Gerber, I'd want to be taking a very serious look at ending such a relationship....and quickly, before any further damage can be done.
Send them a registered letter, outlining how you feel, and give them a specific time period to respond with a solution. If they fail to do so, tell them you will initiate legal action, rather than "pound sand". That should get the ball squarely back into their court and start moving toward a proper and fair resolution.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Two words Mike - Attorney General. Gather up all your doumentation, make copies and send them along with a letter to the AG discribing, in detail, the situation. If you're leasing the equipment, be sure that the leasing company is included on everything. Assuming that you're leasing, they may even go to bat for you. Also, if the supplier is a member of any sign or trade association, be sure they get copies too. From there, a letter to any place this supplier advertises and, well you get the idea. Make sure your ducks are in a row. Write down everything. However, it really doesn't matter what the company promised you verbally, it's what's in the written contract that counts.
Good luck and keep us posted,
Checkers
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I got an e-mail telling me that this matter had migrated over here from 4EdgeTalk.
Well, I think the whole story needs to be told and not just parts of it.
Gerber has nothing to do with the matter. It is a dispute between a major Gerber distributor, a former and disgruntled salesperson and Mike.
Mike, do you have any documentation stating that the Edge you bought was indeed a "demo"? Is the salesperson that you bought the Edge from the same person who started this mess? Is he also not the same person who failed for a year to follow up with you on your warranty coverage issue? Did the distributor provide you with any documentation that they indeed did purchase the warranty for your Edge?
I know this much. If you got screwed over, this salesperson was in on it. Why you continue to listen to him considering how he failed to follow up with you on your warranty contract (per your words) is beyond me.
-----
Here is something people should understand. Gerber does not sell direct with the exception of warranties and service contracts. Gerber sells materials and equipment only through distributors. In this case, the sales person added an extended warranty to "sweeten the deal" (as I understand it). It was then up to the salesperson to make sure that the distributor purchased the warranty for you. According to the distributor, they have the documentation to show that they did.
Salespeople who work for distributors make a commission on everything they sell. They are also given a certain amount of leeway in making the sale. For example, they may be allowed to discount or give away material up to a certain amount if that will close a sale. Anything beyond that amount is deducted from the salesperson's commission. The salesperson is also responsible for his sales region and sales follow-ups.
Reportedly, the salesperson who started this mess on 4edgetalk.com was dismissed for repeatedly making promises outside established policy and not following up. As a matter of policy, the distributor does not publicly discuss employee matters on a BB (which is true with most companies). This salesperson tried to use the BB on 4edgetalk.com as a way to "get some shots in" at his former employer. He ignored the Site Policy and repeated warnings. Hence, his future participation there is currently in doubt.
If you have purchased a demo or used piece of equipment, you can check the history of the machine by simply contacting Gerber and provide them the serial number. They can tell you who the original owners were and its service history.
Any distributor who intentionally sells a used piece of equipment as a "demo" unit opens themselves to some serious litigation and deservedly so. Its a stupid thing to do since the equipment's history can be so easily verified. One reason why Gerber and every manufacturer that I've ever dealt with keeps such detailed documentation is to protect themselves from the stupid things people do. This anal-retentive detailed documentation also serves to protect you the consumer as well. (You guys think Gerber is tough, buy some equipment from M&R-- ask me about it someday)
[ July 19, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Look, a distributor is an extension of a company. Either the company makes good on the promises made made by the dealer or it doesn't.
I have no great love for Hyatt's - all things creative. The only thing creative about them is how some of their people keep their jobs. I had a salesman ask, "Are you f***ing stupid?". This was in response to me calling them to thank them for bidding on our new system but we were going with someone else. Nice, huh?
I believe that a company is only as good as the lowest common denominator. Obviously Mr. Berry has found his. Gerber should do something about it. Hyatt's should be doing something about it. From my perspective, no one is doing anything to help this guy out. That just plain ol' sucks. Big time.
Glenn Taylor has a great Gerber dealer that takes care of him. Michael Berry does not. Hyatt's is a Gerber distributor, Gerber made the machine, the salesman is an agent of Hyatt's who is an agent of Gerber. No one wants to do anything. They lied to him. They misrepresented the machine. The engaged in unethical behavior. Why is this any kind of acceptable?
This goes beyond a disgruntled former employee, as if that makes this whole fiasco OK. It is about a company stepping up to the plate, admitting that a dealer dealt in bad faith, and making it right. It is a shame that a dealer is giving a company like Gerber a black eye but thay are condoning this behavior by letting it continue.
One of the things that keeps me from buying a Edge system is that I would have Hyatt's as my distributor. No thank you. They poisoned that relationship on their own a very long time ago.
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
AMEN! Thanks, Bruce!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Well, first of all, I've never had any dealing with Hyatts, so I can't speak to anything that they have done.
I also cannot speak to what is right or wrong, only to what the courts will see in the law.
Here's the deal. A sign shop buys an Edge from Distributor A. The machine is repo'd some time later. Gerber refurbs the machine and sells it to Distributor B.
1) Did Gerber sell the machine as new or as a refurb to Distributor B? If Gerber sold it as a new unit, then they have some legal issues to deal with. If they sold it as a refurbished unit, the chances of finding Gerber culpable are greatly diminished.
Its like this. Suppose you buy a quart of OneShot Lettering enamel. Then, you tell your client that the paint is some new fangled paint that will never fade. Is OneShot culpable for what you said? Most likely, no. The worst thing that could happen is that OneShot won't sell you any more paint.
2) When Distributor B owned it, did they use it as a demo model? If so, then by definition, a court may accept it as such and find in favor of Distributor B. However, a court may say, "No. The definition of "demo" means that the machine was brand new in the beginning and then used by the distributor to demonstrate; and that the machine could only be presented for resale as a 'refurbished/used' unit."
But, there is a problem with that. Ever bought a TV from a discount retailer? Wanna bet it was a factory reject/refurb and sold as new. Guess what. Its legal. Depending on how much of Mike's unit was refurbished could have a bearing on any case Mike may have. If the majority of the Edge were replaced with new parts and it is determined that there was no intent do deceive on the part of Distributor B, a judge could declare "no harm / no foul". If it was only cleaned up cosmeticly and it is determined that Distributor B intentionally withheld information, then a judge could say otherwise and Distributor B could face fraud charges.
So, what does an armchair lawyer like me know? Not much. I'm just going through a similar situation with a national bank and major insurance company. Not only do I have a strong case of fraud against them, believe it or not, my Civil Rights may have been violated because my Right to live my life without the headaches their deeds have produced has been denied. Thats not me saying that, my lawyer is.
My point is that the the questions and senarios I presented are the same ones my lawyers have presented me. When it comes to the law, there is no such thing as right and wrong. There is only what you can prove.
My gut tells me that Mike's case is going to be determined on what the definition of what the word "demo" means. As screwed up and litigious as this world is, a judge could determine that both sides are right. Won't that be fun.
Said one famous lawyer, "It depends on what the word 'IS" is."
----
Personally, we all know that the worse a turd stinks, the more likely someone will clean it up. If I were Hyatts, I would have turned this into a marketing advantage. I would have given a replacement Edge, or offered some sort of prorated deal, or refund/discount to Mike's reasable satisfaction. The odds are that Mike would have told everyone that Hyatts made a mistake and handled it the way it oughta. It has the potential of helping gain new customers.
I had a client to return a large order of t-shirts a few weeks ago. There was nothing wrong with the screen printing that I did. He was quite happy with it. The problem is that there was a chemical reaction with the dye in the fabric and the sweat from the client's crew. Every where the shirts were in prolonged direct contact turned from blue to white. I could have told him "too bad", but I didn't. I reprinted the shirts with a more expensive brand at no cost and gave them to him. I just won a customer for life and he has already brought a new customer to me.
I've still got to deal with the distributor who in turn has to deal with the manufacturer, but thats the breaks.
-----
Bruce,
Remember what the Bible says. " A little yeast leaven the whole loaf." Anyone involved in sales should remember that.
[ July 19, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
"Personally, we all know that the worse a turd stinks, the more likely someone will clean it up. If I were Hyatts, I would have turned this into a marketing advantage. I would have given a replacement Edge, or offered some sort of prorated deal, or refund/discount to Mike's reasable satisfaction. The odds are that Mike would have told everyone that Hyatts made a mistake and handled it the way it oughta. It has the potential of helping gain new customers."
Glenn - that would be a wonderful idea, however....there's a problem with it. Granted, the "District Manager" did call me last Wednesday, like he said he would. However, he brought NOTHING to the table to resolve this matter. He asked me what I thought we should we, I replied "you said you were going to call with resloutions, you have none"
Then a day later I get a "go pound sand" (my synopsis of the letter) letter from the President of the sign division via my fax machine.
I tried to call him, but he's wayyyyy to busy to speak to me.
So, yup, I would like to resolve the dilemma, but folks have to converse with an open mind and a desire to correct a situation.
I really am trying to be open minded!!
What do I think I should get you might be asking. I want a EDGE with low hours on it and I want the warranty on my Envision 375 to match the one on the EDGE. I might even consider trading up to an EDGE II, but hey, Mr. President would not know this 'cause he won't talk to me, and Mr. Manager needs a hearing aid.
That's it, pretty simple, huh?!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote: What do I think I should get you might be asking. I want a EDGE with low hours on it and I want the warranty on my Envision 375 to match the one on the EDGE. I might even consider trading up to an EDGE II, but hey, Mr. President would not know this 'cause he won't talk to me, and Mr. Manager needs a hearing aid.
That's it, pretty simple, huh?!
No. Not really.
How many hours constitutes "low hours"?
How many hours were on your Edge when you got it? Would the hours on it constitute the definition of "low hours"?
What does the warranty on your plotter have to do with matching the one on your Edge? (More to the story?) What is a reasonable requirement?
If you go to court as you have threatened to do, these are questions you have to ask yourself. A judge will.
Since we know that the Edge is a refurb, how much of it was refurbed? What is the history? Was the printhead replaced? If the printhead had been replaced, did it have lower hours than if you had actually bought a demo?
If it were me, I would have tried to find the value difference between a demo and the refurb that you got.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Glenn,
You made some excellent points in last post. You relayed a story concerning the shirts you screen printed. You made good on the shirts even though you were not at fault. That was the RIGHT thing to do.
Hyatt's is not doing the right thing here. Any monies that were made or might be made are quickly going to be lost forever from this customer. Goodwill is so hard to regain once it is lost.
Way too many times the "legalities" of issues raises it's ugly head. Somewhere along the line "legalities" has taken over as the basis of "right".
You chose to do what was right instead of doing what was within your legal responsibilities. You let your morals reign over an impulse to do what you could have. I commend you for that.
Regardless of the legal aspects of this matter, I still think Hyatt's and/or Gerber should have done what was right.
If the machine was misrepresented, it was misrepresented. Michael Berry might have bought the machine regardless of it's history had he been made aware of it. It was never made known to Michael so it never was allowed to be made part of the equation and it should have.
The tone of my previous post was, I admit, a bit pointed because of the relationship we have with Hyatt's in the past. Your scripture reference (Galatians 5:9) was not lost on me.
It does not, however, sway my opinion or alleviate Hyatt's/Gerber the responsibility of doing what is right rather than what is legally correct.
Posted by Keith MacConnell (Member # 4031) on :
It seems that some people are either out to selfishly defend a paying sponsor from the sight they amin on or are totally losing sight of the issue.
There is no "give the distributor the chance to make it right" in a situation like this. This is a crime. If somebody walked in your shop and stole several thousand dollars from you would you just talk to them and give them a chance to make it right??? I think not.
I was involved in Mikes sale as The Salesperson representing the distributor. He was sold a "demo" which means the equipment was owned only by the distributor. Mike paid several thousand dollars more than he would have for a used piece of equipment but what did he get? He was shipped a used piece of equipment. All the paper work I have from the deal and al the paper work Mike has from the deal says Demo.. And it says WITH WARRANTY.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Mein GOOTness, Keith! Welcome to the Letterheads! Quite an entrance. Don't hold back now. Say what you feel. heh.................
I agree. It's total crap. The sucker screwed him and deserves both barrels. I don't even understand why its a subject of discussion.
Now......... Back slowly out of the door and reenter. "Why, HOWdy folks! I'm new here. Sure hope I fit in. Is there a job opening for Master-at-Arms??"
Go for it, Keith......... and welcome aboard.
k31
Posted by Keith MacConnell (Member # 4031) on :
Oooops... Sorry Pierre and others. I have watched the postings here for a long time and feel like I know most of you. I've avoided input over the last years because I did not want my motives questioned as that of a "troll."
I've been dealing with Mike on his "issue" for some time now and his story is not a minority. Sorry for jumping headfirst. I'm a little a litle dissapointed in some peoples opinion on this matter. I just want to help.
I'll be making another "buyer beware" post soon that will sum the situation up for everybody...
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote: It seems that some people are either out to selfishly defend a paying sponsor from the sight they amin on or are totally losing sight of the issue.
First of all Keith, I don't defend anyone. I'm more interested in the facts. I'm just a mod who's job is to make sure the rules are followed. You didn't. You were warned. You ignored twice. I did my job. That is my issue.
As in all things, there are three sides to every story. His side, their side, and the truth.
---
quote: There is no "give the distributor the chance to make it right" in a situation like this. This is a crime. If somebody walked in your shop and stole several thousand dollars from you would you just talk to them and give them a chance to make it right??? I think not.
And you sold it knowing it wasn't a Demo? You didn't know it wasn't a demo? Why didn't you know it wasn't a demo? Or, did you know it wasn't a true demo and after you got sacked you decided to exact some revenge?
BTW, why didn't you let Mike know before being dismissed from Hyatts? Why didn't you follow through with Mike and the other person Mike mentioned about their warranties? If Mike couldn't trust you then, why should he trust you now?
I'd be careful about talking about who and what is criminal.
----
quote: I was involved in Mikes sale as The Salesperson representing the distributor. He was sold a "demo" which means the equipment was owned only by the distributor. Mike paid several thousand dollars more than he would have for a used piece of equipment but what did he get? He was shipped a used piece of equipment.
Why didn't you say something about it to Mike instead of waiting until after you were fired? Do you think you should give Mike back part of your commission since it was derived from allegedly false pretenses?
----
quote: All the paper work I have from the deal and al the paper work Mike has from the deal says Demo.. And it says WITH WARRANTY.
Then why did Mike find it necessary to say.....
quote: Hope you keep up with the promises you make at your new place of employment. I am STILL not squared away on the warranty stuff from the "demo" stuff you sold me. Guess I might as well crap in one hand and wish in the other, guess I now know which one will get filled first.
I know another person from NH that is still waiting to get what you promised, guess that won't happen now for sure. Very, very disappointing.
If I recall correctly, Mike went though this for a year. Where were you?
----
Sorry Keith. It all sounds like sour grapes to me and you are intent on doing as much damage as you can.
Why didn't you look out for Mike when you worked for Hyatts instead of after?
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
That's cool. We can understand. As everyone knows, I just happen to be the coolest head here heh.............
Actually I'd like to hear what you have to say about this a bit more in depth.
k31
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Glenn!! You're a mod?!? Cool! I must have been out of the loop. Belated congrats, Glenn! It also appears that I'm TOTALLY out fo the loop on this subject.
k31
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Pierre,
Just for clarification, I'm the mod at 4Edgetalk. Have been since it started. Nothing new. I'm still waiting for my brown shirt, though.
It gives a new appreciation for what Steve goes through.
[ July 19, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Keith MacConnell (Member # 4031) on :
Glenn, I won't fall into your trap. as I've stated in the past me and several other salespeople and other employess left Hyatt's a few months ago.. Why would I get into a who quit or was fired with you? I think that would be a little immatureand this isn't the place for that.
The facts are coming out and I caution you that you are setting yourself up for a great fall by being on the wrong side when sh#t hits the fan.. To answer your ??? I wasn't privy to the history of machines at the time and had no reason not to beleive what I was told by my supervior and/or owners.. Several times in the months after Mikes sale he contacted me and other at Hyatts we we're all told that Mike was "All set". We had no reason to beleive he wasn't.. It was after I had left Hyatts that I saw in his post that he still did not get a warranty.
I know he paid for it and I have been trying to help him get one now.
BTW I would love to give Mike a few bucks in the hope that it would make things right. I however was not paid for warranty sales and payoff would be an inapproriate solution to a crime. But that's just my opinion we may come from different schools. My new sales territory covers N.C. I'll stop by and we can get to know each other and discuss further.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yo! Kieffer! Bad form, mon. Don't slide in here and mess with Glenn on his home turf. take it to email.
k31
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Well, its like this.
I don't know if Hyatts pulled a stunt or not. None of us do.
Mike believes that he didn't get what he paid for and believes he has the evidence to back it up.
What I do know is that none of us have the whole story and that everyone believes he's right.
I am also of the opinion that the matter has poorly handled by both sides.
If the goal is to get what Mike said he was promised, this isn't the way to do it.
[ July 19, 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Keith MacConnell (Member # 4031) on :
Glenn, Don't take that the wrong way, I would really like to met you. You seem to know a bit about the biz. I think it would be nice to meet. Isn't that what this all about?
I am curious as to why you would want to persecute me for sharing information that will help people?? I don't have the time or think this is the place for us to get involved in a debate about it. I'm vacationing in Nags Head the end of August would that be a good time for you?
Posted by Keith MacConnell (Member # 4031) on :
Glenn, what would you suggest is a better way for Mike to get results and for everybody else who was victimized to be kept awre of whats going on?? You need to understand this is BIG.
I and I'm sure Mike is open for suggestions from any and all. This whole thing has got me in an state of awe..
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
I see nothing wrong with Keith having his 2 cents, gee Hyatts is having thier's about him. I just got a letter and 2nd paragraph was directed towards Keith and his not so nice practices.
So I'm interested cuz my salesman is one of the among the missing not to mention I am in Mikes sales area as well.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yeah. I'm just not in the loop with this one, Bobert.
k31
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Keith,
I'm not looking to persecute anyone. Based on your initial behavior and responses, quite frankly I don't trust you or your intentions. You may be on the up and up, but your initial behavior said otherwise. First impressions are the most important, right?
I'm also an employer. I've had disgruntled former employees to display behavior as you have. After a while, you pick up on certain things.
---
As for what Mike should do, I can only speak from experience. I can tell you that this isn't the way to do it.
Suppose I do some work for another Letterhead here and I don't get paid as agreed. My phone calls get ignored, messages unanswered and months go by. Should I air the dirty laundry here? No. Its not fair to the owners of this site nor to its participants. I can tell you that most here wouldn't want to hear it and it would blow back in my face.
If Mike want's my advice, I'll wait for him to ask me. Otherwise, I'm just wasting my breath.
Posted by Keith MacConnell (Member # 4031) on :
Bob, One and the same.. I just emailed you. Brent says Hi.
Glenn, Do you work for Hyatts? You argue in their favor more than their own employees do.
My behavior was one where I was informing my customers as to my new contact info. As for your opinion that people don't want to hear it I've rec'd over 200 emails from people wanting to know more. Mike has rec'd many as well.
I too am an employer. And I wouldn't hire someone if I thought they'd allow me scam my customers.
As for what you should do if you did work for another member, I personally don't care how you handle it.
You seem to be really stuck on defending a particular distributor over something you have no idea about. Get over it. I'm sure you're an expert at something but it's certainly not this.
I find It's best that when you don't know what you're talking about to keep quite. You might learn something.
If you don't want to hear it, practice your freedom and move on to another thread.
I'm not happy about being put in the place of being the whistle blower ofthe Enron scandal of the sign industry. I live a very quiet, very comfortable life up here in beautiful new england. I don't need this. I was asked by numerous people to help.
So I will help in anyway I can.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Keith,
Since you asked.....
quote: Do you work for Hyatts?
Nope. Never bought anything from them either. Nor do I receive or have ever receive any sort of compensation either.
---
quote: You argue in their favor more than their own employees do.
Show where I've defended them. As stated before, I'm interested in the facts. If so many employees are doing what you say they are, what does that say about them would be what I'm wondering. I prefer to take what anyone tells me with a grain of salt.
----
quote: My behavior was one where I was informing my customers as to my new contact info.
By intentionally violating Site Policy repeatedly? Good start.
----
quote: As for your opinion that people don't want to hear it I've rec'd over 200 emails from people wanting to know more. Mike has rec'd many as well.
Everyone wants to see a train wreck, too. My point to you was that the BB was not the accepted way to do it.
----
quote: I too am an employer. And I wouldn't hire someone if I thought they'd allow me scam my customers.
I'm not even going to touch that one.
----
quote: You seem to be really stuck on defending a particular distributor over something you have no idea about. Get over it. I'm sure you're an expert at something but it's certainly not this.
As I said before, I'm not defending anyone. I'm not going to blindly accept your version of events or anyone elses for that matter.
----
quote: I find It's best that when you don't know what you're talking about to keep quite. You might learn something.
I might know more than you know.
---
quote: If you don't want to hear it, practice your freedom and move on to another thread.
I'm sure you'd like that.
----
quote: I'm not happy about being put in the place of being the whistle blower ofthe Enron scandal of the sign industry.
Then why did you start it?
----
quote: I was asked by numerous people to help.
Before or after?
---- ----
Bob,
I haven't seen the e-mail. It doesn't sound like a smart thing for them to do. It'll be interesting to see how this soap opera plays out.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
....As Si's cousin's best friend announced the news that she was pregnant, Si slid slowly into the shadows. Was it his sister's nephew, the Priest? Or was it, after all........ the butler? We'll return after these words from Tide!
k31
Posted by Keith MacConnell (Member # 4031) on :
Glenn seems to know everything ask him who the father is. He'll tell you it was anybody but the real sperm donor.
Harness the POWER OF DENIAL!!!
Glenn, You seem to be really confused. This was started over a warranty issue. I'm sorry I've wasted my time in and grown tired of taking part in a battle of the wits with an unarmed opponent.
There is a synopsis of this whole thing put togther and being updated. It should be of concern to any and all equipment owners.(except, Glenn, he lives in a perfect world.)
For the rest of us mere mortals who would like to be kept abreast of whats going don't tolerate being taken advantage of, you on can email me at kmac@goassco.com ...I will get the most up to date copy out to you.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Here's a question regarding the "appropriatness" of this discussion: If this topic wasn't fit for inclusion on the Edge forum, and the moderator there saw fit to lock it down there, why is it now "appropriate" to bring this sparring match here?
Hey Pierre, as a moderator, would you welcome this sparring match on your forum?
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yeah. Right. The tail end of this crap would have made it for his one post, a post deletion, 4 hour lockdown and thread deletion . You don't belong here, Keith. You have nothing positive to contribute to the Letterheads. Some of us old cranky guys have earned the right to get stupid once in a while. But we do our stupidity with penasche. You haven't earned that right, and I have a feeling you never would. Adios, sucker.
k31
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Pierre...
That would be "panache".... although chutzpah might describe us better... Hahahahahahahahaha!
Just a thought from one old know-it-all to another... Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Oh, crapola!! I misspelled it!! Geez...........
k31
That's like grandly slamming a door when making you exit only to have it spring back open to reveal you trying to dislodge a wedgie.
[ July 19, 2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Pierre, with all due respect I want to see how this plays out.
it was shut down in 4edgetalk but there is a lot still to be aired and under it all a fellow head has been wronged.
Mike got sold a bill of goods that was not what he received, is it Hyatt's or Keith?
What I want to know is why does Hyatt's say Mike does have a warranty and Gerber says no?
Why was his machine sold as a "demo" and was a used machine with a previous history that had been refurbished?
Why are we so quick to silence Keith when we have not seen any "good will" from Hyatt's to Mike?
They have been accused of wrong doing but have not shown any more than a blow off from what Mike has posted. I'd be ****ed if I was him too.
Hyatt's is a supplier of mine and I know the manager that is dealing with Mike, I also lost a salesman around the same time as Keith left, other Hyatt's employees such a tech guys that had relationships with shop owners have flown the coop, it dont look good folks and shop owners have the right to know what is going on.
Now Keith may have gone about it the wrong way or he might even be a disgruntle employee, but why is it we hear from Hyatt's on the BB when they are to get praise but they hide when the crap hits the fan?
dont ruin this thread over bickering over who has more witts. Dammit I want to know if Hyatt's is screwing the shop owners or not.
I have a warranty to re-up and I might just go direct now.
Posted by Keith MacConnell (Member # 4031) on :
Bob, Just so you know; A bunch of us are meeting on Monday with an Agent from the Department of Justice for protection under the whistle blowers act. From there we meet with the consumer protection agency and then with A.G. My general practice lawyer has referred me to a top New England Law firm, the guy specializes in this kind of thing.
Posted by Keith MacConnell (Member # 4031) on :
Also Bob, I don't want to just send out the documentation to date unsolicited but I'll be more then happy to fill you in and keep you up to date if you request it. The request needs to be in written form, an email will do. kmac@goassco.com
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Oh, I'm not wanting to stop anything, Bobert. This is Steve's board not mine. I'm just raising a little hell out of sheer frustration. My Rosemary is gone, and I don't like it, and SOMEBODY'S GOT TO PAY!! heh...... Keith came along, so................
But Ken is right. I wouldn't allow the tone and timbre of this exchange on my own board. The content isn't a problem, but it got personal. THAT is something my people wouldn't even consider trying on www.swissrifles.com
k31
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Bob,
quote: it was shut down in 4edgetalk but there is a lot still to be aired and under it all a fellow head has been wronged.
I shut the thread down. The reason why I did it is because Keith was using it as a platform to attack his former employers.
If Mike wants to open a discussion about his problem, I have no objection to it. All I ask is that it be done in accordance to the Site Policy.
With emotions as high as they are for Mike, my only suggestion to him is to be careful. I don't want to see 4EdgeTalk get dragged into some slander suit.
Just give the facts without hyperbole is what would benefit everyone and all that I require.
Did Hyatts pull a fast one? Dunno.
Did a saleperson pull a fast one? Dunno.
Did Mike get what he purchased? Doesn't look like it.
Should Hyatts publicly respond on the BB? I wouldn't. Then again, I wouldn't have sent e-mail either.
Tune in next week. Same Bat-Time. Same Bat-Channel.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Im with Bob on this. Id like to see what comes of it. Ive bought stuff from Hyatts before. Im not an edge owner, but Im interested in how they decide to rectify this situation.
Posted by Robert Peach (Member # 2620) on :
I`m with Bob on this subject also. I don`t quite follow Glenn`s motivation. You shut the discussion down on 4Edge. Why not back off and let us find out what the facts are here without provoking all this arguing? I got screwed around by another distributor when I bought my Edge. The only thing they did right was tell me that it was repo`d and refurbed. They couldn`t get it to work and basically gave me no training. I complained on the 4 Edge board and Gerber stepped up and helped us out. I Can`t say enough good about them! First class all the way.I think they do care about there image. I would definitely buy their equipment again. I`m just not sure who from. I hope this discussion continues,hopefully with some input from Hyatts.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Robert,
quote: I don`t quite follow Glenn`s motivation. You shut the discussion down on 4Edge. Why not back off and let us find out what the facts are here without provoking all this arguing?
I guess its because I'm the provocative type. How dare I not go with the flow and follow the pack. Maybe its because half-truths, inuendo and incomplete information irritates me. Who knows.
The only motivation I have is that "facts" come out. Not just a bunch of hyperbole. Its a pet peeve of mine I guess. Some of the old timers around here know that. I guess I can be a real SOB about it at times. Sorry.
As I said several times before, I didn't shut down any thread on discussing the matter. What I did shut down was a former employee using it as a forum for his own personal vendetta. How many times to I have to repeat it? I received several e-mails from other participants asking me why I let the thread go as long as I did. Can't please everyone I guess. I'm too old to start trying now.
And, like I said before, if you want to start a thread about it, that is fine with me. All I ask is that it stick to the facts and not violate Site Policy. What else can you ask for?
As you said, Gerber found out and stepped up to the plate. Hearing other speak, you'd think that Gerber was the Devil. Go figure.
Gerber and other manufacturers follow these threads. They learn a lot from them. I also know they also get a chuckle from some of the nonsense that gets thrown out there as well.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote: ...grown tired of taking part in a battle of the wits with an unarmed opponent.
Hey Keith, I had that same 101 stupid insults book when I was 9! Wow, cool, you finally got to use one.
For the record I am all for Mikes issue being played out in public for everyones benefit, but as for Keith's commentary... my opinion from the cheap seats thinks you come off like a complete imbecile.
I have had my share of debates with Glenn, & I may not agree with all his opinions, but will give him credit for being level headed. If you start the verbal sparring somewhat carelessly with him & let your emotions blind your reason you will end up looking stupid. (& if you're paying attention you will feel stupid too.)
Oh yeah, welcome to Letterville! Don't worry, I think most of us have made anAss out of ourselves at least once. I know I have Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
ALL of us, Doug?? Surely not ALL of us! heh................
k31
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Good post (as usual) Doug.
Keith:
You seem well intentioned enough to me, but I suspect that you'll wind up with very little support if you keep letting your emotions override your reason. (This from a natural born "hothead")
Lettervillians and 4EDGEtalkians have known Glenn Taylor for a long time and have grown to respect him on many levels. As Doug says, "level headedness" is one. Pay attention and you might learn something of value from the man.
Yakking in a public forum (no matter how noble your cause) is probably not in your (or Mike's) best interest at this point.
Let cooler heads prevail and do get to know Glenn Taylor a little if you get the opportunity.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
This whole deal stinks. Mike and Glenn have been Letterville users for several years. Keith may have been aware of letterville for sometime, but we sure never head from him or Hyatt's when he worked there.
Mike may indeed have a legitimate complaint here, but I can't help feeling this forum is being used to generate ill will towards a company and former employer. I have to agree with Glenn here when he says we are not getting the whole story.
I'm not even sure this is of any concern of Letterville. The simple fact that 4Edge is dedicated to a specific piece of equipment instead of people, points out a significant difference between the two sites. Isn't Hyatt's a sponsor of 4Edge? Or Gerber? Why isn't this being dealt with on 4Edge?
We're cheering for you Mike. I really hope this whole issue gets the attention it deserves and a speedy resolution. I don't know Keith, but one cannot help being suspicious of a former employee's true motives. I suggest you take this debate back to 4Edge. One final thought? Does Letterville just a fraction of free publicity 4Edge is granted here in Letterville?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote: ...4Edge is dedicated to a specific piece of equipment instead of people...
Don't be silly Steve. I haven't seen a single question asked or answered over there by a piece of equipment.
Sharing design, production, marketing & small business decision making information over there among many of your own paid residents is what goes on there every day!
quote: Does Letterville just a fraction of free publicity 4Edge is granted here in Letterville?
everyone over there who was not already aware of your site, has most certinly been made aware of it by publicity there. In fact I don't see it as "over there", it's more like a little block party on a small street corner in Letterville, & everyones welcome.
As for this post, it has gotten out of hand, & I wouldn't blame you if you lock it up, but many here want to know the outcome. (without the drama)
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote: Does Letterville just a fraction of free publicity 4Edge is granted here in Letterville?
You betcha. It is encouraged, too.
Here's why. The Edge or any other piece of equipment is just a tool. It is only as good as it's operator. Where else is a better place to learn about layout and design than here at Letterville.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
I know!! *raises hand, hops up and down* I know!! You know the place where its almost unnecessary to go anymore because of computers, trial and error, listening to half-baked self designated layout artists, working for customers who don't know the difference, pure laziness, simple lack of real talent, etc.etc.etc.etc.
I think it's called .......... GRAPHICS SCHOOL! Real teachers, real learning time investments, a real diploma?
.........or not.
k31
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Well..... yeah. That too. . Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
The point I really wanted to make is that these supplier bashing posts always make me uncomfortable. I should mention that my background is as a small, signshop owner myself. Over the years, we experienced most of the negative supplier related challenges I see posted from time to time.
Letterville is not sponsored by Merchants. We found out early that it is impossible to serve two masters. That's why Residents are so important!
Over the years of running Letterville, I have also learned that Merchants are not all bad guys. We've seen several occasions where a supplier has been bashed or slandered here in public. In most cases, the supplier has bent over backwards to remedy the situation. Unfortunitly, unhappy customers are not always as eager to post this fact. In a recent case, we saw a Merchnat here offer to fly into a location to investigate and satisfy a disgrunted user of their vinyl. The offer was turned down.
Letterville is a popular spot. On an average day, almost 15,000 visit the BB alone. It's a powerful voice and the temptation to use that voice in inappropriate ways can be very tempting. It's always a challenge to insure this forum is not being used to settle privite agendas. We're not here to personbally attack or attempt to embaress anyone. Those that choose to do so, must be aware that the Merchant is entitled to disclose his side of the story. Better not to go there in the first place.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Steve,
Great point! and I do wish this supplier would voice thier own side, not to fuel a seemingly already bad situation between a former salesman and themselves, but to address Mike's issue directly.
Of course the proper way I'd like to see that is to satisfy Mike's concerns then have Mike explain to us how he was taken care of.
If Keith's claims are true and real, then light will be shown on that through legal channels, And I agree none more should be said about it here in this public forum. What I am concerned about is how the Supplier is going to handle Mike's issue.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
Glenn, I can understand you defending Gerber; you do, after all, eat at their table. But, much as I respect you I really have to question your defense of Hyatts in this matter, on this board.
You say - quote “ I've never had any dealing with Hyatts, so I can't speak to anything that they have done .” Yet on the 4E board you recommend them – quote “ I'd recommend creating a file and sending it to a distributor such as Hyatts and ask them if they will print a sample for you. ” Personally, I would be very uncomfortable recommending a supplier that I’ve never dealt with in a public forum. I can understand your duty to them as they are an advertiser on a board that you moderate, but surely that duty ends on the 4E doorstep.
I strongly feel that disputes such as this should be brought to the public limelight. It is not only appropriate, it is a service to all of us. Mike has been wronged, and from what I can understand he has gone through every process available to get satisfaction, and has been rebuffed. I also understand from discussions on the 4E board that he is not the only person to have bought a machine of questionable pedigree. Perhaps the company(s) involved need occasionally to be shamed into action to resolve an issue. Hiding the issue does nothing, nor does it protect other people from the same issue. Should the company(s) feel that they are being unfairly challenged, it is up to them to defend themselves, and explain their side of the dispute. There have been many occasions, here in Letterville, where a company representative has done just that, and lost no credibility in the process. I think it’s another reason why the board should be supported by both its users and the advertisers, and I’m glad Steve for the most part lets discussions regarding products or suppliers, whether negative or positive, play themselves out.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
To all,
I can appreciate the fact that this post has developed into an interesting subject on the Hyatt situation, and some of the involved parties have stated positions. It has also developed into issues including aspects of the 4edgetalk and letterhead web site policies. In the interest of everyone involed, I would remind them that the topic was a simple question as to what a "demo" was. Initially, defeinitions were offered, but have long since been forgotten.
The post to date has me wondering if non publicised e-mails have been floating around and making this post unmanageable.
Truth be told, I have never dealt with any of these companies to date, but was interested in this discussion because, like Bob, I am also in the same market area. But after seeing some of the comments by those close to the situation I will only say that in the future, I will probably not deal with any of the companies involved or the products mentioned.
It would seem to me that the situation such has been described here and the subsequent posts, regardless of their intentions, have digressed.
I tend to agree that this should not have been brought up in a public forum prior to issues being settled. Too often we tend to play armchair lawyers and second guess the outcome.
Maybe in the future, these situations will be resolved and the people from Hyatt's, Gerber, etc. will post the outcome both here and on the 4edgetalk site in an honest attempt to keep infomed.
Rapid
PS: To me, a "demo" involves a lot of crashing cars. Something to think about in cosidering this post so far. There's a lot of damge, but hopefully, no one gets seriously hurt, and someone wins when it's over.
Posted by Peter Hyatt (Member # 4035) on :
Although I don’t feel this venue is something a dealer should get dragged into responding, I believe there is a substantial amount of negativity being posted here that requires a response to attacks on the reputation of Hyatt’s.
Hyatt’s has been in business 44-years, now having five locations, selling retail art supplies and B2B sign equipment sales. One does not survive in this world without providing quality products and service, and certainly if were out to cheat people. My philosophy since 1984, when we started selling GERBER equipment, was that our sales are not one shot and move on, they needed to be long-term relationships, taking care of the customer.
Mr. Berry was provided a letter from me regarding his transaction, in his words a letter to pound salt. Here is some information provided to him.
He purchased a 3-month old demo envision 375. It included the balance of the warranty or 9-months worth. This is clearly stated on the order delivered with the equipment and on the invoice. There is no question this is a demo machine and included a warranty, albeit a 9-month warranty.
His conversation with us now, is his demand we purchase another one-year warranty for the machine at our cost because he feels he should have gotten a 12-month warranty, or a warranty to match his EDGE. We do not feel we have any responsibility to pay for 21-months coverage, but have made him an offer, to cover 3-months of the cost if he purchases a one-year warranty. This will still cost Hyatt’s, but in the name of good customer relations, we have decided to take the loss. This offer to Michael Berry was made at 4:50am on the 19th via e-mail. Yet in his post in this venue of 2:08PM the same day, he continues to rant and rave about no response, ignoring the e-mail of 9-hours earlier.
“-----Original Message----- From: J.D. Iles [mailto:jdiles@hyatts.com] Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 4:50 AM To: a1awardsengraving@comcast.net Subject: Re: ???
Mike,
I am sorry I was unable to get back to you yesterday. I was involved in meetings all day yesterday but I did want to get back to you on this issue.
It appears to me that you are not interested in a resolution to this problem, or you are interested in resolutions that I see as unreasonable. The letter Peter sent you very accurately sums up the situation as we see it from our side.
Currently you have equipment in your possession that is working properly, and it is equipment that is in a better condition than it needed to be for the terms of the sale. The fact that this equipment had just been refurbished prior to being sold to you meant it was just one step away from "new", and you did not purchase new equipment.
The issue you have seems to be over 3 months of a warrantee. Your EDGE-2 was covered for 15 and your EnVision 375 covered for 9. In an effort to resolve this, we will be happy to pay for 3 months of your next 12 month warrantee on your EnVision 375.
A normal extended warrantee would be $478.00. We will cover three months of it or $39.83x3=$119.49. The balance would be an amount of $358.51.
Please contact me if you want to go ahead with this.
JD Iles”
As for the GERBER EDGE, Mr. Berry was sold a refurbished GERBER unit, purchased from Gerber. I explained to Michael that I consider refurbished units many times better than a demo. Every dealer has demonstrators, whether taken out of stock as a new unit, or ordered from Gerber separately. The definition of a demo unit can be many things to different people. I have seen it stated here that a demo has very few hours in the showroom. On the other hand a demo can be 2-3 years old, have been taken out to customers shops for demonstrations, left there for a week trial, or in other words, anything to demonstrate the equipment to a potential customer.
Our salespeople are fully aware of what equipment we have, whether used, demo, refurbished or new. They have almost full control on what they offer customers in the way of equipment, warranties and materials.
I explained to Mr. Berry, that many times a refurbished unit is better than a demo, as Gerber has gone over it, parts replaced, tweaked it to factory specs, many times have a new print head installed and includes a factory 90-day warranty. It is my opinion that this machine can be categorized as a zero time unit. This is what was sold to Mr. Berry, clearly listed on the order at delivery and invoice. It clearly specified a 90-day factory warranty.
Mr. Berry contacted us regarding the warranty issue in late summer of 2002, being only 90-days, and the issue was given to the salesman involved to resolve. After numerous conversations back and forth, Hyatt’s in the name of customer relations, purchased from Gerber a one-year warranty on the EDGE at a cost of $800.00. This provided 15-months coverage on the EDGE, not the 90-days provided at the time of the sale. I believe the unit is now covered until October 29th, 2003.
So the bottom line is, we have extended ourselves providing an extra 12-month warranty in September 2002 on the EDGE when it was not included with the sale. We have offered to cover 3-months on a new warranty that we only get a 10% discount on if someone is going to ask. We have provided a refurbished EDGE instead of a demo, in my opinion better since it comes from the factory just like a new one, but without the new sticker.
We are in for the long haul. If we feel we have done something wrong, and even if we haven’t, we will extend ourselves to correct the problem. What we will not do is bow to ransom demands, such as threats of lawsuits, or posting all sorts of negative comments this and other discussion boards until we give in.
I wish to thank all those who spoke up in our defense. We have thousands of happy customers and I think our reputation speaks for itself. Although we try our best to please everyone all of the time, sometimes it isn't possible. Hopefully Mr. Berry will accept our offer to cover 3-months of warranty on the purchase of a new one.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yup. Logic is an excellent BS broom, isn't it. So we've been listening to nickle dime crap that never should have been brought to the Letterheads. The only good thing to come of this was Hyatt's post.
Geez, man...................
k31
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Mike,
Well, I had hoped that this thread was going to end with Steve's. Too often, I've been accused of trying to get the last word and here I am being asked a question seeking an explaination. So here goes....
1)The only table I eat at is mine. If Gerber screws someone over, I'll say so. They know it too. In this case, I don't see where Gerber has any culpability in the matter between Hyatts and Mike. It would be like blaming OneShot for someone doing a lousy lettering job. I think we have to be careful not to confuse legal responsibilty with moral responsibilty. Yes, I know a few people at Gerber and I suspect that they are keeping an eye on the matter. But, it is not their responsibilty to step in at this time, IMHO. Its just too soon. If I were them, I'd wait to see what shakes out of the tree first.
2) I have never defended Hyatts. I asked before to show where I have. What I have said is.....
*Any distributor who intentionally sells a used piece of equipment as a "demo" unit opens themselves to some serious litigation and deservedly so. Its a stupid thing to do since the equipment's history can be so easily verified.
*If I were Hyatts, I would have turned this into a marketing advantage. I would have given a replacement Edge, or offered some sort of prorated deal, or refund/discount to Mike's reasable satisfaction. The odds are that Mike would have told everyone that Hyatts made a mistake and handled it the way it oughta. It has the potential of helping gain new customers.
*I don't defend anyone. I'm more interested in the facts.
*I am also of the opinion that the matter has poorly handled by both sides.
*Did Hyatts pull a fast one? Dunno.
*Did Mike get what he purchased? Doesn't look like it.
*Should Hyatts publicly respond on the BB? I wouldn't. Then again, I wouldn't have sent e-mail either.
*The only motivation I have is that "facts" come out. Not just a bunch of hyperbole. Its a pet peeve of mine I guess.
*And, like I said before, if you want to start a thread about it, that is fine with me. All I ask is that it stick to the facts and not violate Site Policy. What else can you ask for?
----
quote: You say - quote “ I've never had any dealing with Hyatts, so I can't speak to anything that they have done .” Yet on the 4E board you recommend them – quote “ I'd recommend creating a file and sending it to a distributor such as Hyatts and ask them if they will print a sample for you. ” Personally, I would be very uncomfortable recommending a supplier that I’ve never dealt with in a public forum. I can understand your duty to them as they are an advertiser on a board that you moderate, but surely that duty ends on the 4E doorstep.
The answer goes back to the Site Policy, particularly lines 9 and 10. As a Mod, I am held to a higher standard. I simply try my best to be above reproach as much as I know how.
If Advantage and Garston were also paying sponsors, my sentence would have read: "I'd recommend creating a file and sending it to a distributor such as Hyatts, ND Graphics, Advantage and Garston and ask them if they will print a sample for you."
Besides, if you will go back and research my posts, you will always see that I added "and other distributors" or something similar.
----
quote: I strongly feel that disputes such as this should be brought to the public limelight. It is not only appropriate, it is a service to all of us.
I agree. That is why I said " It seems some think that there are certain things that cannot be discussed here. You are right. My somewhat receding hair line. But seriously, you know what I'm talking about. All I ask is that it stick to facts and not be a bunch of hyperbole, personal attacks or vendettas. In other words, don't violate the Site Policy. That is all anyone can ask." -- "Clarification" http://www.4edgetalk.com/sitenet/cgi-bin/netboardr.cgi?fid=106&cid=103&tid=1642&pg=1&sc=40&x=0
quote: Mike has been wronged, and from what I can understand he has gone through every process available to get satisfaction, and has been rebuffed.
Yep, that is what Mike says. And, like I said before, there are three sides to every story - his side, their side and the truth. And, until I hear from both sides, I reserve the Right not to jump to conclusions. I will wait until I am satisfied that enough information has come to light before I draw my conclusions. If that gives the appearance that I am defending Hyatts, then you are very, very mistaken.
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quote: I also understand from discussions on the 4E board that he is not the only person to have bought a machine of questionable pedigree.
Yep. That is what Keith said. He may be right. He may be lying, trying to bolster his position. I don't know. Again, I am going to reserve judgement until I have more facts from less suspect sources.
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quote: Perhaps the company(s) involved need occasionally to be shamed into action to resolve an issue.
I agree. How it is done is another matter. As long as it doesn't violate Site Policy, it is perfectly fine by me.
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quote: Hiding the issue does nothing, nor does it protect other people from the same issue.
I agree.
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quote: Should the company(s) feel that they are being unfairly challenged, it is up to them to defend themselves, and explain their side of the dispute.
Yep. According to Bob, Hyatts is currently doing so via e-mail. Personally, I don't think that is the way to do it, but it is none of my business and only an opinion.
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quote: There have been many occasions, here in Letterville, where a company representative has done just that, and lost no credibility in the process. I think it’s another reason why the board should be supported by both its users and the advertisers, and I’m glad Steve for the most part lets discussions regarding products or suppliers, whether negative or positive, play themselves out.
I agree and well said.
[ July 20, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I really need to learn to type faster.
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I agree, Pierre.
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
Peter,
I called you. You never returned my call. JD even said that my Envision 375 was covered, the only reason I found out it was not is because I called Gerber, so if I had listened to what JD said I would not of known the facts. I would be thinking my Envision 375 was still covered until fall '03.
I quoted you as saying "Pound SAND, not "pound SALT"
I see that I now have an EDGE II ,(according to your faxed letter to me) thanks Pete, I used to have an EDGE I, guess I must of upgraded! (I would like to)
In your faxed letter to me, to said:
"We provided you with a quotation to you on demonstrator equipment on June 12th. The quote was configured to meet your need to allow us to make the first payment to the lease company, as apprarently you could not or preferred not to advance the cash. A lease was submitted and approved."
So Pete, what your telling me is that I did not put money down? BULL!! Check #1041 dated July 7th, 2002, made out to GE Capital.
You also said:
"I handle ALL paperwork with these transactions, and do the invoicing and all paperwork involved. I pay particular attention to making sure sales are invoiced as soon as they are installed. I make sure all the warranties are taken care of as provided on quotations and at the instructions of the salesperson.
If you take such great care, why are you saying I did this with no $$ down? Time for an audit?????
One more quote from Pete:
"We took care of the $803.00 lease deposit, provided over a thousand in cartridges, and provided training on the Omega, which I beleive is all you needed. Covering the lease and giving you free materials would of lowered the package to around 16K, which is the cost for a new EDGE only"
Once again, Pete.....you keep forgetting that check # 1041, you did not cover squat! As far as the cartridges, that was Hyatt's choice, I was a good cheap Yankee and asked for stuff, you know, like I was taught as a very young age, "if you don't ask for something, your sure not to get it!" I asked for something, I got it, and now you try to throw it in my face...I don't think so!!
You said you purchased a warranty for me, in your letter you say $720.00 and here you say $800.00 which is it.
I am getting dizzy, must be the circles he talks in.
Your still not addressing the real true issue here, I did not get what I bought. I bought a demo, not a used machine, not a refurbished machine. In case you don't understand what a demo is, please see the 1st few posts here, they describe it nicely.
You still have not attempted to settle this, you just keep doing the salesman thing and talk in circles.
Peter, if you wanna talk, let's talk. If not, then so be it for now. Your boy knows how to get a hold of me.
[ July 20, 2003, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Michael Berry ]
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Then talk! But do it on the phone. What are you solving here by continuing this crap on the BB?
k31
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
Pierre,
Point taken......I am trying.
Mike
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Cool. Posted by fontking1a (Member # 763) on :
Maybe the salesman thought "demo" was short for......demolished? I guess it all depends on what the meaning of ....is....is. Remember, we now have a new language in this country where words DON'T mean anything.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
" I did NOT have sex with that woman "
I swearrrrrrr!
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
I beg to differ, Bob. I have video tape. You look great on camera too!!
k31
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Now that both sides have had an opportunity to explain their sides of the story, I feel any furthur comment by the rest of us can serve no real useful purpose. Like the rest of you, I am curious to hear the fianl chapter in this story. We'll be watching for that post.
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