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Posted by Troy Haas (Member # 472) on :
 
It seems that this subject comes up on a regular basis here and I thought I would inject my point of view. Some of you may agree, many may disagree. Both are great. lets have a good clean debate. So here is my piont

It always kills me when I hear someone say "Sponsoring race cars is not a good investment". Or how about"It is their hobby,let them pay for it"

For a very few companies this is true, but for the vast majority of companies it is a great investment. If done properly!!!!

By properly I mean, do you think that those big corporations like Lowe's, Dupont, NAPA, etc. just hand over money and/or service's and then let it end there??? No way!!!! Almost all of them incorporate the driver and/or the car in some form of thier advertisement. Some print, some tv and some even radio.

Look at all the tv comercials with Micheal Waltrip and Dale jr. in them for NAPA and Bud.

You have to do your part as a sponsor. Everyone talks about being professional and most here are. Then why reinvent the wheel so to speak.

Here is what I would do if I had a shop right now, and by now I mean in July and August. Go to your local track(s) either circle or drag or whatever. See who is winning on a consistant basis. Also who has the big name sponsorships from the local or regional area. When you have been to several races then do a little more investigating, like me the driver and crew. Are these people you could work with??? Next find outr how long they have had thier sponsors, if it is a long term set-up then the driver probably understands what it means to take on a sponsorship, not just take on a check.

Now, between now and next season negociate(sp?) a package that would benifit BOTH of you.

By this I mean, if you letter thier car, trailer, tow vehicle, etc. for a reduced rate, or dare I say it, Free then go the distance. Set it up where you use the car and/or driver in YOUR other advertising.

Have at least one open house for the public at your shop and have the car, driver and trailer there to let people look at the car up close.
People love to see race cars where they can put thier head in and look at where the driver sits.

Also make sure that your company name is on anything they do such as :

T-Shirts
Crew & Driver Uniforms
Handouts
etc., etc.

Now I am not saying that you will get to do other race cars and you may not want to, kinda of concentrate with the "One Driver" thinking.

But think about this, how many people go to the races each week???? How many people will see the trailer on the roads and even in the drivers yard??? All these are potential customers.

You may never be able to link some of your future customers to the sponsorship. But, how many may have seen a the trailer on the road and then 3 months later they need a sign. They may not even rememebr where thay saw it themselves, just that your compnay name is in thier head.

Along those lines racing fans are some of the most "Brand Loyal" consumers out ther. Need data, I have plenty, just ask. Why does Tide spondor a race car, because all them ladies out there who like racing and/or Ricky Craven are more likely to buy Tide at the grocery store. It is a fact.

Now you got Joe Company in the stands on Saturday night. He see's your major sponsorship of Jim Racer's race team. Now fast forward to Monday morning and Joee walks into work and his boss say's, "Get some signs for the parking lot". He remembers your company name and calls you. You don't ask( you need to though) and he doesn't tell you that he got your name from that good looking race car he saw.

You get the job, it is a small one, but it puts your foot in the door. 3 months later The boss now tells him they are redoing the corporate logo and need top get new signs for everything.

Guess who has been going to races and seeing your name for those 3 months. Guess who has there foot in the door already because they did a good job on those $200.00 parking lot signs.
Now you have a contract to replace the signs at all the locations worth Six-Thousand dollars.

Now how much money have you made off of a $1,000-1,500 sponsorship, that by the way is tax deductable!!!!!!

Those big companies who spend 3,5 or even 8 million dollars on a race team will see a huge return well over what they spent.

Also, you don't have to have the best car/driver out there. Maybe you need to start with someone who is coming up the ranks. Just make sure they have the money to run every week before you sign with them. A car in the garage on Staurday night gets NO attention....

Something to think about.

Now lets get this debate started!!!!!
I love a good debate !!!!

[ July 15, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Troy Haas ]
 

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Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
 
eyyyyup!
Monday morning, here comes a customer!
"Saw yer name on Billy Bob's car, reall purty !!! Now I found this here hunk of plywood when I was at the dump...and I got it all painted up fer ya with some silver spray paint. Brung it in fer ya to paint'Bubba's Garage' on it! How much?"


 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
see that little dot under the word TIDE? No not the registered trademark "R", that other dot... thats my logo! ...only cost me $1500.00
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
Troy,

It couldn't have been said any better.

I'd say most people here use sponsorships the "wrong way" and that's why they have a bad taste in their mouths about the subject.

I don't do many sponsorships but the few I *do* have are working for me.

It's a two way street so the racers you sponsor HAVE to know EXACTLY what you expect of them! You cant just letter their cars (or in my case put graphics on their jetskis) and leave it at that, for them to run your business name around a track. You could do that yourself on your own race car, even without any intentions of actually winning or posing competition.

You have to let them know you expect some returns, because in essence YOU OWN THEM now, THEY are WORKING for YOU. You cannot forget YOU have the upper hand in the deal! When the next season rolls around and they come back for sponsorship, if the last year didn't work out you have the power to say "Sorry, things didn't work out between us as we had hoped."

I choose my racers very carefully, in fact out of THOUSANDS of jetski racers across the globe, I sponsor only three and lemme tell ya, it's cheap quality advertisement. This is my criteria to decide if a racer is worth the sponsorship:

1. Do they attend events/races on a consistent basis? If they only do one or two a year, forget it!! My guys attend every event/race in their regions, two of them travel into the neighboring regions to race with those guys too! I actually had four guys but the 4th one busted his knee the first race of the season and has been out since - he lost his sponsorship cause he couldn't live up to his end of the deal, unless he can recover for the World Finals in October I'll be visiting him to collect a check.
2. What do other people think of this person? If he/she is not well respected, I probably don't want my company associated with this person. One of my guys is almost questionable here, he's a nice guy that doesnt have a mean bone in his body but he talks and talks and talks and talks... can't shut the dude up but that also works to my advantage, he talks about my graphics and hypes them up!
3. Will they make the effort to sell my product or services? If all they want to do is fly a logo and not back it up by using their mouth to refer paying customers, it's not going to work out. All three of my guys promote my products/services because they are business owners too, and I return the favor by referring work to them. Gotta work together!
4. Wins. Everyone likes to have a winner on their hands cause it puts their name up front, but I'll overlook losses if they're attending lots of events and promoting a possitive image for my company and themselves.

The BEST thing you can do is attend races, make notes of the companies sponsoring some of the racers then contact those companies and ask them candidly about some of the details of those sponsorships.
You will find out things are not so "rosey" for the racers.. NONE of them are getting a free ride! 'least not the REAL racers!
 

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Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
 
What I'd be most concerned about is just how many of those "big name" racing teams have their graphics packages designed by and contracted by National Advertising Agencies. As you pointed out, they just don't cut the cheque and let it go there. They want to have, and do get a whole lot of CONTROL as to what goes on those cars, and also WHO gets to do them. This approach might work with a small-time racing team that has upward potential, but once they hit the big circuits, who they get to do their graphics packages will soon be taken out of their hands. That is, if they want those big bucks sponsors.

I would think that it would be more advantageous to be courting those Ad Agencies, rather than the Racing Teams, if that's where you really want to go. All that a freebie job would do, at the local level, is to re-inforce the perception that there are still sign shops out there who are suckers, and willing to do race cars for free. They do have their own grapevine, and word of another dummy gets around FAST.

That's my viewpoint, for whatever it's worth.
 

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Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
First sentence:
"Hey, how much you charge ta put hi-tech ray-ud-nek, an' sum number sebms, and bubba's name, own-nis-here car?

or

"We'll LETCHA put yore name ownit if ya put-ta layuterz own-nit fer FREE!"

"I'll do it fer 150 dollars"

"WHEEEW.....why that's plumb R...I...D.......ickalus!"(Jeff Foxworthy quote)

"we'll get back with ya........cum-own Bubba...les-go"
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
See, yer just goin about it all wrong.
Gotta let em know the business end of it.

Here's how the conversations go when people ask me about sponsorships, and luckily I have the experience of having been a racer to know what's going on in their heads..

"Is there any way I can get a sponsorship?" (could be well-intentioned, or just a grub lookin for a handout/discount)

"Sure! Send me a racing resume' if you have one and a business proposal, if everything looks OK I'll send out a contract with the terms and conditions."

Having to write a resume', a proposal and sign a contract weeds out the people that just want hand-outs, and leaves you with people that are serious about it. People that use racing as an excuse to get together with their buddies and drink beer will never jump through those hoops! They'd just as soon use electrical tape for their numbers!
 

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Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
 
FINALLY...Someone has come up with the PERFECT answer to the guys who come looking for "sponsorships!!!!

quote:

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"Sure! Send me a racing resume' if you have one and a business proposal, if everything looks OK I'll send out a contract with the terms and conditions."

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BEAUTIFUL RESPONSE MIKE!

I am printing it out.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
Although Troy clearly stated that his scenario may not get you more race car work, but was instead aimed at Joe-grandstand-spectator, I would still agree with Ken, that getting your company some business with an ad agency or 2 could be better then dozens or even hundreds of grandstand Joe's.

I do a lot of sponsor graphics for windsurfers & kite surfers. Often the sailors are the ones purchasing the graphics from the sponsor dollars provided to them. Other times I am doing the work for the sponsors who buy in bulk & provide the graphics to their team riders as well as anywhere their logo may be seen by their market. My best customer for sponsor graphics is a guy who never wins a race, but travels the world being paid to windsurf & often has the most & best sponsors. He is well respected by his peers as the most marketing-savvy among them. Sure the guys winning the competitions are well respected, but even those guys usually don't stay on top for too long, & playing the sponsor game is not all about winning. Last year the customer I'm referring to got on the cover of 3 different windsurfing magazines (that would be just about all of them probably) & sponsors like those cover shots weather you're a winner or not.
 

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Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
MIke that sounds more than reasonable to me but, knowing the way they seem to be around here, I'll bet it would weed out 99% of them. The guys (in another post) who paid me well to do their cars are rare jewels in this neck of the woods..

(turning to Bubba with a smirk) Ray-uh-za-may......bidniss papozal.....wass'at?

I'll try it next time just to watch the reaction.....should be inta-restin'.
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
Wayne,

Yeah, the guys that go through the resume' and proposal route are the exception, not the rule.. but because I made it one of *my* rules, I get quality guys working for me and I don't feel like I'm taken advantage of.. not to mention I don't have to deal with deadbeats beyond that first conversation.

Like Doug, I also produce the logos for lots of the aftermarket manufacturers so I'm being paid to produce other companies' sponsorship advertising, instead of paying for it along with my own ads.
 

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Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
I hear ya!
Don't see why it won't work.
 

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Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
 
MIchigan Here,

We seem to have more race fans per capita than many other states. Troy and Mike, if you can make money on these guys, YOU ARE THE MAN! I say keep it up. I'm more inclined to agree with Si. "So many promises...so few results"

I recently did a mini dragster. I did all the sponsors on it, did flames, did the motor home that pulls it, and installed everything. I charged very little money, because I would "make so much money on the residules. Six months later, she, (Mommy racecar driver) calls and tells me it's time to "renew" my sponsorship for $250. Not a chance! I got -0- from the last give away.

However, in all fairness, I will do work for my customer when they sponsor a car. Why? because they pay me with money, not promises. No bitterness, just another lesson learned.
 

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Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
 
What a good posting!

I just got a copy of "Guerilla marketing". How timely. In it he says nobody can make it by marketing in just one medium. I think many if not most sign shops rely on signs as their biggest medium,(understandably) and maybe word of mouth would be considered another medium.

But I'm curious about two things:
1 How many shops are advertising in other mediums, and, what are they?

2:Getting back to a thing Troy said, is this other medium compatible with pictures of race equipment?
 

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Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
 
In this area none of the above would work. Most of the cars are dirt track or small time track racers. They do put alot of money into them, but in my experience, they almost never put alot of money into the lettering or graphics. Ive had several come in the shop this spring and summer wanting work done and each one of them wanted me to sponsor their cars with a free lettering job.
Its their way of getting the work done for free. Thats the bottom line. Most if not all dont care a hoot whether you get any work out of your name being on there. I sponsored a car a couple years ago, and this guy was a high profile racer at the dirt track. Never got one single reference out of it. Thats why I decided to sponsor no more. In our area, and I aint being prejudice, most racers and fans are not business people or those that get alot of work done. Just average joes (sorry OP) that want to enjoy their weekends. Mikes ideas are good, but would only work in certain situations and areas. If they work for you, I certainly hope they continue to do so and wish you good luck. These bubbas round here though, theys after m'vinyl. Theys aint gettin it.
 

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Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
 
Amen Mr Deaton!
 

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Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
 
I have raced alL over New England. At every track I have been to there is a new sign guys just killing himself to break into the business. He or She will do just about anything to get there NAME out there. I know this person, as I was one of them. It was a great place to practice skills but a terrible place to make money. I used to do 20 - 30 cars a year. Now, I do about 5. I got rid of the cheap bastards. I only letter for money now. There are plenty of newbies (which I admit I was) willing to letter for there name on the side of the car. As for me MONEY TALKS & BS WALKS!
 

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Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
 
Rapid Tac Inc. has a very open mind toward sponsorship.

For the past 10 years we have sponsored more then one racer a year, sometimes 4 or 5.
Yes, we receive or ask for portfolios/bussiness projections or event and schedules up front.

One year I got a call from Ed Renzi (former president of McDonalds hamburgers), he had heard about Rapid Remover and wanted a sample for taking off glue on the lexan windshields from the "tear-offs". It was costing $600.00 to replace them each race.

He called me back, so pleased that he offered me 2 seasons of advertising on a couple brand new NASCARS !
I was so thrilled, the equivilant of a couple million dollars for free !!

Great guy Ed!!!!!

Now we do more boat sponsorships, we now have a roundy round boat (Chris whalenn) doing a 1st. place in National points,fantastic year from Ill.,Ind.fla.Pa.La.etc. And a Drag Boat that is consistantly in the 7's and a real show boat at that.

We love it !

Roger

The best part is watching your logo go by on T.V. on Sundays !!
Knowing thousands of others see it too !
 

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Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
 
Sponsoring anything on a local basis for the most part is a waste of time. There are exceptions but for the most part 1500-1800 is a good crowd at a short track and for the most part it's the same 1500-1800 every week. Not a real big market. The last time I went to a weekly drag race, you could have brought the crowd there in a school bus. Even with good marketing the numbers just aren't there and marketing as some have pointed out is really important. Back when I was doing almost nothing but race cars I didn't market anything else. I got stuck being "the race car guy" They might bring me a car to be done up in a leaf of some sorts, airbrushed and pinstriped but go elsewhere to have their fleet of plumbing trucks done. "Oh we didn't know you could do that too" DOH!!!!!
 

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Posted by Sunny Holtzlander (Member # 4012) on :
 
Wow! Love this discussion!

We do several race cars.
One we do for free. It's a Silver Crown Sprint Car, and yes, it's cool to see our logo going around the track on national TV! But that's all it gets us. Haven't gotten any referrel business out of it.

The other 7 or 8 sprints we do, are for our local track. We give them a reduced rate, and we have the biggest logo, of all of them.
Our racers seem to be very superticious. 3 years ago, we only had one car. He did super that year. The next year, we got a couple more. They did well,so the next year,we got a few more.

Since the track now sees, zoooooom, "The Edge Graphics", zoooooom, "The Edge Graphics", zoooooom, "The Edge Graphics", zoooooom,
The track has called for signage themselves.
Also the local radio station has a "racing show" each week to post results and interview racers, so they asked us for decals to give away. Of course our name also goes on that decal.

It didn't start out very profitable our first year, but we kept at it, and now it's turning a good profit. it's now starting to spill over the our local drag strip as well. I don't know what we did to make it work, but I do know the first year, I didn't think it would be worth it.
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
Of course my ideas work...

They present a resume', proposal and sign the contract they're bound to the terms..

They don't sign anything, they don't get any sponsorship and you don't have to deal with them at all!

I gotta deal with rednecks too, but I have global reach so I'm not stuck dealing with local yokels.
 

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Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
 
Back in the late 80's, I used to letter 30 plus cars a year... that is until I wised up and started jacking up my prices.

We do one (1) car a year now. It is Tracy's wife's cousin's car. We do a lot of work for the one cousin and the two of them together own the race team.

Vern Bliss won the NASCAR Northeast Late Model Pro Stock championship two years ago. We are still waitng for ANY work to come from that car.

I used to enjoy doing cars but I also enjoy meeting my obligations. Race cars are too much work for not enough money. I have seen people get their cars done for as low as 100 bucks around here, not to mention the freebies.

Stock cars start at $800 in our shop and work their way up quickly from there. That's what we need to get to do a nice job. We don't do vinyl for the do-it-yourselfers, either. Not that it is unprofitable, it's just that we can't deal with their schedules.

I don't have any bad feelings towards the racing crowd. A new tire is more important than a good lettering job. Too bad for them.

Too many people fooling themselves into believing that they are really going to strike it rich in the racing game... Going to make a big name for themselves.

Quick, name 10 guys/gals that make 75% of their income from lettering race cars of any sort. Airbrush artists and pinstripers don't count... You will be hard pressed to name them. I can think of four, and even them I have a few doubts.

Good, well thought out opinion, Troy. I don't agree with you, though.
 

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Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
 
I'm with John Deaton and Bruce too, no two ways about it; been there. I find better offers and solidity other places than race cars, every time. But, I do know some folks that do handpainting on race cars and for almost a whole days work, they get a measley 300 bucks, and that's it.

[ July 17, 2003, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
A few years ago, I spent the winter working with Fadden Racing, a 2 car outfit in the Busch Grand National North Series.
Although they had sent out sponsorship proposals in the past, they'd had little luck in getting a top dollar sponsorship. Although they both had sucesses in racing and were very popular with the local fans, they were running out of pocket with local sponsorship for years.
As I was knocking out some local cars, they noticed how many people had mentioned my work and how it was "different" at the local track level. The team manager called to see if I was interested in designing cars during the off season for their proposals.

For every proposal, there were included rough designs for the car(for which I was paid very well), personal appearance availabilities and more. Eventually, both drivers found sponsorships with NAPA and Car Freshner, the latter being the best paying sponsorship in the series that year.

Mike Olsen, the "Little Trees" driver is still in good standing with the sponsorship and has won a BGNN title. He is now in his 6th year with them and has 5 cars in his new garage. I am still involved with the team and continue to do special projects with them.

Race cars are billboards on wheels, and should be treated as such. My general rule of thumb is "Make them look" when designing a car and with a little education, drivers can also appreciate what that can do for their careers.

They will appreciate your efforts as well and can sometimes be the best "word-of-mouth advertising.

Like them or hate them, they will always be a part of this business. Mostly because they need us to make them look good in a sport where image is everything.
Keep that in mind when you write the bill.

Rapid
 

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Posted by Troy Haas (Member # 472) on :
 
I keep seeing a common complaint with race cars and sign shops....

" I don't get ANY work from our racing efforts"

Now, let me ask you this. How many shops ask EVERY customer EVERYTIME, "WHere did you hear about us" or a similar question to that effect. And, how many customers for those of you who do, can tell you exactly where they did?????

SO......How do you know that Joe Fan did not see that trailer and place your company name in thier minds data base, even without realizing it.


Also, I don't think there are too many sign companies out there who could make a living at just race cars. The 2 that do come to mind are Fineline in Denver and Motorsports Graphics(I think) in South Carolina. Fineline I do know does a large portion of the Pro Drag cars out there. And yes they do a lot of other things.

As for Motorsports Graphics I believe they do a fair share of the Winston Cup Cars.

Ken,

I do know a lot of the sponsors have a say in the final layout of the car, if only for the approval of logo's. Sam Bass and Kenny Youngblood also design several of the cars for special occassions. As far as Ad agencies, I would be more inclined to try to get in with the marketing companies that only deal in motorsports.

Si & Doug,
Your grouchy today, reply tomorrow ....hehehehe.
Just funning with you. Trying to get my sence of humor back

Bruce,
I don't agree with you either.....NANANAA
See above for example's of your percentage.
Another example is Jack Lindenberger on a local level. Trust me, he does a ton of local race cars and get's full price and his logo.
I don't know everyone though, so I will have to investigate more, but if your 4 are different from mine there is 7. I am sure other people can come up with a few more and we are at 10.

Also, like many large corporations, many of your upper escholon teams have in-house graphics departments. Nothing we can do about that.

As far a regions and the way thinking of, "That won't fly around here, it can't be done"....

...how many people would have siad the same thing about the area in and around Nashville,Indiana before Gary Anderson starting creating his magic????

Race Car's are not for every sign shop, just as every shop does not do neon, or electrical or whatever nitch. You have to have a passion for it and be willing to work hard to develop it just as you would any other area.

How many shops just in the last couple of years have been in an area where sandblasted signage was considered "too Pricey" or whatever and then someone worked it and showed the buyer/comunity a product that works and can be benificial????

Keep it coming folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can do this all night, one of the few things I can do all night
 

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Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :
 
sponsorship
nice
not only do I get to work for free...
I get to advertise the fact that I do.....
dam....
good thing I can make it up in volume!
 

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Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
 
Troy..Ole Buddy/roomie..

I ask exactly THAT question of every new customer!!!

quote:

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Now, let me ask you this. How many shops ask EVERY customer EVERYTIME, "Where did you hear about us" or a similar question to that effect

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Posted by Troy Haas (Member # 472) on :
 
Micheal,

try asking for money in return for your work.
(Just kidding by the way)

Dave,

I know the kind of questions you ask.....
 

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Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
 
Michael, I don't care what they say about you & those cows, you hit this one square on the head.

I am surrounded by dirt tracks. We have a guy around here that does cars for nuttin. People call & get cranky that I won't do that. Sorry, I like to eat. I've heard this guy's name a lot, but have never heard it in association with a paying sign/lettering job... hmmm. So my choices are do race cars for nothing & starve or only do paying jobs & eat?
 

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Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
 
Troy,

I can appreciate your views on this matter. Look, when I was lettering cars in the late 80's, they were all hand lettered. My costs were minimal. There was very little use of "logos". It was all stovepipe, single stroke, casual, script alphabets with a little thick-n-thin thrown in for good measure.

I could knock out a basic stock car (#'s on door and roof, sponsor on rear quarters, front fenders, hood, and special thanks) in approximately 6-10 hours. I was charging 300-400 bucks a car. Cash.

Now everyone wants their "logo" on the cars. Everyone wants phone numbers and addresses. They want test the "five pound sack syndrome" to the extreme limits. People lettering cars for cheap and teams now buying their own equipment to do it themselves.

Unless it is a repeat racer, it takes us longer to cars now. Figure a scan or two with at least some kind of clean up time a car for someone's "gotta have" logo. Figure you have to work around some of the ugliest paint schemes. Figure that all the new racers are trying to use the car as some kind of tax shelter. No more cash jobs. They all want receipts now. This not to mention the associated costs of doing the car (vinyl, transfer tape, etc.).

Way too many times, I have suffered the same fate that George Perkins alluded to. I would letter a car only to see the guy go somewhere else for a van job or a sign.

Yes, maybe sponsoring the team could be a real boon to someone. Unfortunately, last time I looked, my bank account wouldn't spring for the car sponsorship, new uniforms, trailer, truck, extra motors, sets of tires, back up cars, travel expenses or much else for that matter.

The minimum to sponsor a full time team on the Busch series level is over a million dollars a year. Winston Cup is over three million and that is bare bones operation. The team that Ray Rheaume letters for probably spends a couple of hundred thousand to race on a high competetive level. Very few sign shops I know of could pony up that kind of scratch.

The cars that run the former-known-as-Winston-Cup
rely heavily on TV exposure to make sponsoring a car a viable opportunity. The exposure on a local level is nil.

The further you delve into the local racing world, you will discover that they are a very tight knitted group. They do all talk to each other about who is doing what. Try explaining to one racer why you sponsored Billy Bob Racer's car and not his. Sponsor one, you better start be ready for the onslaught on over zealous car owners demanding that you include them in your lettering stable. No can do, brother...

People sponsor cars on a local level because they like racing. It gives them an opportunity to play with the racers. It gives them a buzz to be a part of it all.

It is kind a thrill to go to the races and see car after car that you have lettered. It is very good head food. Although head food is fat and calorie free, it is good for little else.

For someone to see anyone's name on trailer and recall it three months later is unlikely. Advertising gurus preach that advertising only works with far more exposure. It is the constant getting the name in front of the customer that makes it work.

As far as getting work from the track, they will go with the low-ballers 83.6% of the time. They have a bottom line to watch, too. To them, a parking sign is a parking sign...

Like I said before, you have a very well thought out point in what you say. Now go pack your house up...
 

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Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
 
Most people that tell you what a great deal it is to do race teams are people that are race fans themselves and just like being around it...do you get name recognition from it to some small degree? yes but so what you'd be better off spending the money you lose on doing a car at the price they want it on a small direct mail play if getting your name in front of the public is what you're after.
Unless it's a national level race team you're gonna get anything useful out of it. Ask yourself this when you get in this dilemma over whether or not you should cut them some kinda deal.......#1 when was the last time you went to a small local racetrack ,looked at the cars with sponsor names.... then when the hot water heater blew up you sat there racking your brain trying to remember which car you might have seen Fred's Plumbing on as a sponsor,then spend more time and effort trying to find fred or his number? answer never....or better yet when fred does come over to fix the toilet, tell him you have alotta dinner parties so if he lets you put his name on your toilet all your friends will see it and surely call him.... and see how far that gets you while he laffs his way outta the door.

[ July 16, 2003, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Gavin Chachere ]
 

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Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
 
And apparently if you answer the phone b4 you hit enter someone else posts with similar points....
 

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Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
 
Lots of good points.. in some areas it would be perfect. here it is not.

I used to work at a track near Gulfport MS. The cars and spectators came from all over from as far as Florida and texas.. And along came their crews and spectators too. Why would i want to advertise to a diverse crowd that comes from over 4 hours from my base.. None of the ever ever on TV either..
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
Troy, I'm gonna go with you on this one.
All night if necessary.

The teams I mentioned have thier cars done by Motorsports Design, (I think that's the one you meant.

Si, in the chat room one night you referred to me as "some nut in New Hampshire wasting his time on race cars"
I know you said so in jest, and, admittly it is what I am known for most as a painter, not unlike George was in the past. I was catagorized early and it still sticks like glue to this day.

I don't feel that it has ever been a waste of time. Especially after this past weekend. After spending time with Frank Manning of One Shot and finding out about his past deaings with Dupont, we had a lot of common knowledge about chemistry and conditions on vehicles. It made conversations this weekend interesting and a lot of the chemistry of what we work with was discussed. Temperatures, environments and the like were batted around for a while and I have been in some of the worst situations without even knowing it. It was eye opening and informative.
Much of what I do is based on the learning curve from race cars and I make a lot less boo boos these days because the people who paint the bodies on cars are usually there to see the results of my work over theirs.

The exposure to the fans is measurable by the number of them who show up at a track, but I've done cars at 14 different tracks over the years. It expanded my business markedly.

I've run two ad vertisements in the local paper since 1991 and the only call I ever got from them was from a kid looking for a job.
Racing led to truck lettering, led to signs, led to Letterville and this post.

Can't wait to see what happens tomorrow.

Rapid
 

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Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
 
You know, the one thing that use to set me off with the car guys was this one sentence they used. "Work with us." Any other time it was just a simple, much used term, but coming out of a racecar owners mouth, it meant "How cheap can you do it, or We'll trade you the hood with your logo on it for doing the car." Nah. Once they said that sentence I was already ahead on the next paying job. Its just the nature of the beast so to speak. The replies above prove it out. One out of a hundred can make money doing racecars. The others like me make more money by passing em up.
Good discussion though.
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
John,

Not trying to sound sarcatic, but don't we all "Work with" our customers to asome degree.
We pick their colors at times for them, walk them throught the design process, get approvals and the like.

Just a thought.
 

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Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
 
Hahahahahaaa ... Ray...yup! I did say that...in jest! I too wasted lots of effort on race cars! Did Indy Cars, Ca-Am Cars, D Derby cars, wanna-be cars, has-been cars, and never-was cars, never made any real $$ on any of them!

Like others said, was young and foolish, plus it was fun, but too many ppl ready to do them for nothing with "Stikkerz" now!


 

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Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
 
Some of the Companies I do work for do run race cars. I have never lettered any of them, and never will. I have, however went right for the $6000.00 jobs and took it away from the car letterin' guy. (sucker)

Why waste all that time doing race cars if the payoff is the real high dollar signwork?
 

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Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
My sentiments exactly Gavin

quote:

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....or better yet when fred does come over to fix the toilet, tell him you have alotta dinner parties so if he lets you put his name on your toilet all your friends will see it and surely call him.... and see how far that gets you while he laffs his way outta the door.

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quote:

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Did my first car last year all vinyl $740.
The car won $1000 for the best looking graphics contest. Did the guy's brother's car for about $385 with a lot less stuff on it. My company logo was on both cars(large). "Open modified" cars? I think.

They both brought their cars back to me this year.
Did the first car a little more jazzed up this time for $859. The car won the $1000 prize AGAIN. Did his brothers car this year for about $750 but he blew his engine so the car was in the shop during the contest.

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These guys race at a track over 100 miles from me.
My (very large)logos were on both cars for over a year and I have yet to realize any advertising value from that. Hey, but I got paid!
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
Ok, last one for me tonight...

For the first time in 3 years, I went to the track where I worked as the videographer in years past. Shortly after entering the pit area, I was approached by one of my long time customers, Sam, who had bought a vinyl system.

He practically draged me over to see his car, which had a picture of "Scooby Doo" next to the numbers. (It was his way of making the car special for his son over the years)
I asked him how long it took him to make the pair od decals since I was just getting started with vinyl myself.
"6 hours" he replied.
Then he asked me to look at the rear of the car and asked me how long it would have taken to do the cartoon he had made in paint.
I told him it was an unfair question since I had more experience in cartooning and he was still fairly new at the decal thing.
We got done chatting when his brother Dave, who runs the decal shop, asked me to come and see his car. Dave then asked for a price for putting "Taz" on the hood. I gave him my card and asked him to call Monday so I could talk to him without all the noise and distraction.
He never called.

Over the last few weeks, Dave has been in town working with a sign, just one in particular. He's flipping the sign from "slow" to "stop" for a company digging up the town sewage lines. (I'm not making this up)
Dave caught me while driving home on Thursday afternoon last week and asked me if I knew a company that he could get license plates from for $1.00 or less and if so "order 100 for me when you get home. I need them for the race track this weekend".
I did what anyone in that position would...looked at a catalog with plates for $1.25 each, smiled, and went into the house and played video games with my son for a couple of hours.
A couple of days ago, Dave told me he was not working with the race track anymore because there was no money in it for him. I told him that I figured that out already and that it's usually the case with racing.

This post has been both interesting, informative, and for me, a real pleasure.
Thank you, Troy. I hope that all is well with you and your family, that your hand heals up and that you have nothing but good fortune in the future.
As for tonight, I have enjoyed all of this as if you were all here at my shop for a live meet. I look forward to meeting you some day Troy, I know I'll be meeting George soon and reuniting with Bruce, Chris and many more in future meets.

Wayne, Mike have at it.....

I'm going to bed. I have a race car to letter in the morning.
Rapid

PS: Mike, where I live, the $6000 sign jobs are 100 miles away, but the race cars are only 75 feet down the driveway. It's a living.

[ July 16, 2003, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
 

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Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
ive been in pa, maine, w.va, florida and damn close to alabama. i been a "piston head" since i big enough to tell the diff between a 1/2 open or box wrench. not only have been letterin race cars but i drove and worked on em. so most of my young years i did a lot of race cars for FREE! i now live 1 mile from 5 FLAGS RACEWAY. its an ARCA track they run good cars here and most of the well know drivers today....have raced on this track. i moved here in 98 and the track had been closed a coulpe years. i saw some activity one day drove in and got to know the managment. they were gona do a reopening and see if the track would make money. was nice i got to do all the track signs(all of the paint work) buy another sign shop got to do the pace car(i didnt do digital printing). this was a good gig for almost 3 years. now for the best part....i was at the track anytime i wanted to be, i was in the pits during races, and you know how many cars i did? NONE!!!!!! most that raced there were outa towners, the locals there had some sign shop GIVING AWAY THEIR VINYL, or the race team bought their own vinyl cutter and one of the wifes on the pit crew who was "artistic" did all the lettering(braf, puke, gag). also when a new managment took over the track....they found someone to do their track lettering for 1/2 the price i was doing it for!!!!
i also had a shop on the main road to the track. put out a banner HAND LETTERED STOCK CAR...$125.00. know how many i did......2 and those had someone elses stick on NUMBERS!!!!! stock car people are good people....but they are right up there with lawerys, real estate and used car dealers. wayne and i are only 50 miles from each other....and the amount of cutthroat, cheap, give there stuff away signs shops between me and him are off the scope. we have a drag strip between him and me....and i dont do anything for those guys...either.
when i lived in sarasota...i got into the APBA offshore boat racing. well same problem there, these guy will spend $500 for aset of stainless steel headers(which the salt water will destroy) and then beat me up for $300 worth of lettering. also i did a bunch of work on SWAMP BUGGIES that race in naples fl. again....they want it nice..but want it for free.
ive also did work for a national company APEX inflatables....after 2 months, and a lot of long distance calls, i got paid!!!!! what mikey is doing and doug aint your local race car guys.....

[ July 16, 2003, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
 

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Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
 
MY TWO CENTS:

If you want to create awareness of your sign business for those spectators that come to races,
then letter your sign shop vehicle up and park it at the race track where EVERYONE can see it as the come to the race.

Then park the vehicle at the donut shop at 5 am the next morning and leave it there till 8:30.

Creating "awareness" of your business amongst those that attend recreational events, whatever they may be, does not entail a sponsorship or lettering of the product....it means being visable at the right time in the right place.
 

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Posted by Jacki Allen (Member # 2672) on :
 
So far the only race car I've lettered for free is my daughters. I've done a few of them, and always gotten paid for them. The ones I do, say they can get it done cheaper by someone else, but they like my work better and insist we put our name on the car.

This coming winter, I will be doing one sprint car for free, because the future driver of that sprint car and his parents have been a tremendous help in getting us started with my daughter's quarter midget and supply us with odds & ends of parts and tires they had left over from their quarter midget years. Because of their help and the son teaching my kid what he knows, my daughter has won about 80% of the races she has run in a car & engine that is substandard compared to the rest of the kids she is running with. You just cant buy that kind of thing, so in return, I'm supplying them with what I know and am stilling thinking we got the better end of the deal.
 

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Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
 
This has turned out to be an interesting post, with interesting and varied views. I've noticed a parallel between this one and the ones that discuss the success of Yellow Page ads, works for a few but doesn't for the majority.
I liked drapers comments about parking your shop truck at the track to get noticed. You could take that one one step further if your track runs sprint cars, fix up a push truck with your shop name plasted all over it . That way you wouldn't be tied in to the one guy....the one guy that may or may not turn out to be popular, run up front, or might just be the guy that pulls that stupid stunt at the track that they talk about for years
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
Good point there, Dave, about visiting a track with your business vehicle.

George, I can't wait to meet you in Quebec. It seems we have had very similar careers.

I have met a few sign shop owners who race on the weekends, one has stopped racing recently after a horrific wreck a few years ago. He is also one of the most talented signcrafters I know and recently told me he has been to Letterhed meets in the past. He has been featured twice in Signcraft magazine. Check him out here http://www.universalsignworks.com

There have been cars that I have done that are noteworthy more for the spectacular wreck they have been in than how good it looked, but I have been blessed by hearing from folks who still can recall some of the cars I have done, including the first one 12 years ago.

I've never associated with just one driver or team, but have been associated with a few over the years who do outstanding work on their cars. I don't get the "$300 beaters" like the first couple of years doing them, but cars that I'm sure anyone who has followed this post would love to hop in and try out.

As far as the redneck stuff from this post, I'll never care for that stereotype and in defense of drivers I have worked with, here's what they do for a living...

NAPA Store ownwers(5)
Patent lawyer (owner of a 5 car team)
Property manager (of a 146 unit condominium)
Thermal design engineer
Community Action Program (CAP) weatherization manager
Police officer (3)
Volunteer fire fighter (9)
Prison guard
Fire protection systems designer

Some of these "Bubba Bob race car guys" could buy my business out 10 times over.
I have earned their respect as a business over the years and many know my passion for painting. I have always respected them as people with a love for racing.

People with a passion are those who are driven in life and enjoy what they do.
There are a lot of "heads" out there.

Rapid
 

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Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
 
Ray, I'm looking forward to meeting you too. That meet is gonna be awesome.
There are a number of signpainters that have raced or still do. I drove a mini stock for a number of years at a dirt tracks all over the mid south. The announcer at our local track used to call me "the Flying Signpainter" one of my long time customers thought he was saying "the Blind Signpainter" to this day , I stii hear that when i go in his shop
Letterville resident Tony Vickio posted on here a while back he used to race a late model.
I've met a number of signpainters at different tracks around the country. I met Chicago's Pat Finley at Nashville a number of years ago. I met Oklahoma's Tony Armstrong ( dang good brush man) one night when he was driving the McBride and Schoff sprint car ( for you racing trivia buffs, this is the only ride Jeff Gordan was ever fired from ) I met Bob Aton ( the guy that clued me in on how to clear OS with urethane ) at West Memphis, he too was driving a sprint car. Ran accross him a few years later and he was in a late model. There's a ton of racing sign painters out there and even more racers who have gotten into the vinyl end of things, like Jeff Floyd of JFR Graphics.
 

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Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
Hey Ray!
Jus' cause ya speak Southern don't make ya a redneck.

I hate ta say it but I murder the Kang's Anglish most ever' day. I jus caint hep it! I's born 'n' raised right-cheer.

But, from my limited encounters with the local racer types, they generally do fit the stereotype.

Y'all hava good'un.
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
It's bad enough I have to learn ebonics to understand the guys on my car/truck forums, don't make me learn redneck too!
 

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Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
ray you are one of the few who have met the real money people. i worked in the 1st NAPA PARTS in arrostook county maine. was owned by a well to do BUTLER METAL BUILDING co. this was 1970-71. i did 15 years working NAPA parts...from maine to fla.
met most of the owners, and none of these....liked to spend any money on race cars.
when i was doin the offshore racing boats...i worked for the guy who owned a large pizza chain. he had a bemmer, jag, harley, and his boat was a one off experimental buit by volvo and was always refered to as the BAT BOAT.....but still was a pain in the a** when it came to payin for the letterin. as i said before, most stock car people are good people, none of the workin guys ever gave me a problem payin.....the ones with MONEY....ALWAYS had to wait on MY money....
 

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Posted by GARY CULY (Member # 3130) on :
 
george,,funny you said something about JFR,jeff floyd. hes been doing well this season on the MARSseries out there
as far as comments on doing race cars,im really over on the other end of the deal here.i dont do any freebies or many locals...i do touring pros and the people who can afford good lettering and service.
for newbies,,watch out for deadbeats..they are everywhere in race cars! get paid!!
 

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Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
 
Ray, the term "Work with us" used in its usual context as you stated is okay with me. This one guy that use to come in an "bug" me was not the cars owner, but one who helped out and did some of the work on the car. Funny thing was, he was on disability and could crawl up and down that car. He was always saying that to me, and I finally told him that Id be glad to do the work for them, here is what it will cost. He didnt come back anymore. Others have used that term too and it always means the same. We need the work done for free or almost free.
The racers here have left a bad taste in my mouth, so my opinion of the ones at this level is pretty bad. At higher levels no doubt you can make some money, and there is an occasional apple in the tree that will spend. I aint found none yet. My buddy Sam Sanfillipio in pinson still hand letters cars, but hes found people that will pay him for his work, and his work is good. I look at racecars the same as I do "stickers". I just dont do em.
 

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Posted by Troy Haas (Member # 472) on :
 
I love this, Looks like I obtained my objectives with this post.

1. Start a debate that is a good topic.

2. State my points of view.

3. Listen to others views.

4. Keep the post civilized and on topic.

As far as # 3 goes, I feel involved with a good debate when I can state my opinion AND I don't change my position, but understand someone else's position. I think I have done just that.

Damn, I went and got off topic, it is suppose to be "sponsorships", not debate's

Now back to the Sponsorship Channel...
If you don't support racing then you are a Do DO Head!!!!

[ July 16, 2003, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Troy Haas ]
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
Wayne,

The stereotype is well engrained in most of us. The "Good Ol' Boy" thing has been a marketing tool for years in racing and I have many who do fit that description as customers. (Just a few more "ay-uh"s up the way.)
It's taken me years to weed thru those types and find the few who are a bit more professional about racing.

John,

quote:

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I look at racecars the same as I do "stickers". I just dont do em.

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