Just got paid by the county for some signs after 5 weeks from delivery. They had to have their signs in a hurry, on time, and they were.
I have a customer who is 2 weeks in arears of payment. The purchasing agent has not returned my calls or emails for several days and she is there today. They Owe $1444
Another customer came in over two weeks ago, needed their sign before the weekend. The sigwas designed, made and installedover their door with a day to spare. They have promised to send a check twice and it ain't in my box yet. $177
Another client owes $3680 for their sign project and after 3 weeks, no check either. Another sign is in production but is on hold awaiting information from the client. He dosen't return calls, or return emails either. He paid his deposit but I can't get paid till it's done...over $400.
I've paid all of my bills (a plie of it for THEUR materials) and my bank account is zeroed out.
This only happens when I deal wih local government, large corps., and INSTALLS. Never have that problem with cash and carries. One of the reasons that I hate installs
I don't know how i allowed it to get to this point.How do you deal with "Bill Me's" and installs.
[ July 10, 2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Brian Diver (Member # 1552) on :
Wayne,
I feel for ya. I did some work for a company in the Midwest and didn't get paid because the receiver said 1 of the signs was crap. I had pictures taken before it left my shop and it was perfect. After numerous calls (not returned) and 8 months later, I decided to get tough. I got Prepaid Legal services ~$16/month. They will send a letter on your behalf to the client. I went to the library which has a great database that only libraries and educational institutions can use and found out who the CEO and everyone in his sphere of influence were. I then had the lawyer send a letter to the CEO. Within 2 days I was speaking to a manager way up the chain from the smuck I was dealing with. We ended up settling on the sign and they even sent it back. I got almost everything I asked for and he admitted that this was handled very poorly on his end. Anyway for what it's worth.
You can always send a note to the company you are dealing with stating that if they don't cough up some cash they will be speaking to your lawyer the next time and that should get them moving.
Best of luck!
Posted by Barb Schilling (Member # 13) on :
DEPOSIT AND COD! The only credit we offer is on plastic. It is worth the 3-5% fees to not have to act as a collection agency.
Regarding the government jobs: In Minn. there is a timely payment law that requires local and state givernment agencies to pay in 30 days. I accept purchase order for deposit and send invoice promptly.
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
Other than a few accounts that we've dealt with for years, every job is now C.O.D.
Every quote I make I make sure it is stated. Every customer that orders any work, I make sure they understand the terms before I do any work. If I'm installing a sign, I make sure the cheque is there before the sign gets put up.
No chasing anyone for money owing. I've never understood why people think we should give them credit on their signs. Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Simple. No payment no sign. Otherwise make sure you have 30 days worth of money in the account to cover the net customers.
Age old problem for everyone. It even can happen with customers who have always been relialble and dependable on payments. These past three years in this recession has taken its toll on everybody except the war machine.
Everyone is afraid that if they demand payment from the customer they will go somewhere else. And they will and they will screw the other guy too that got the job from you.
Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :
if i have a problem with a city or county i put on the bill if paid by this date $xxx.xx after this date $xxx.xx i usually ad 15%
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
yep..i'm owed over $9k right now......some dipsh!t bounced a check on me so i took the check to his bank and got cash...there's no one else i'm worried about...yet. Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
... 80k in receivables ... about normal for me..
If they all came in at once I wouldn't know what to do with myself..
Having said that I normally have only about ~$300 per year in bad debts. Last year was bad, I had to write off about $3000 for a construction company that went bankrupt, but I had done over 43,000 in sales with them.
Cash flow is usually healthy, funnily the only time cash flow hurts it when we get really busy, when business gets slow cash flow actually improves as cash burn slows down and receivables come in.
[ July 10, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: TransLab ]
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Something I guess we have all run into at one time or another. It also seems that the bigger the outfit, the slower they pay. The same with government agencies. Most likely because it is so easy to pass the buck--spell that responsibility---to someone else.
I would way rather deal with a one person biz than any other kind--- a lot easier to make that one person understand where one is coming from.
There is another angle not mentioned so far, and that is the fact that a sign or a lettering job is not in the same category of necessity as food, clothing, utilities, housing or medicines. Helpful, yes, an absolute necessity, no. Since it is not an absolute necessity, then the customer should be prepared to pay for it. For the customer to argue otherwise should be a red flag. And, if the customer wants some form of deferred payment, then bring it up before the work starts. This way, everyone knows where they stand, and there shouldn't be any unpleasant surprises for either side.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
After a bout with the "deadbeat file" last winter, I added to my invoices..
"All work to be paid for upon pick up or delivery unless otherwise noted."
I also hung a sign with the same on the shop wall and in the office.
The most I will do is a "net 10 days", and that's only with businesses and public services that I have dealt with in the past.
By writing the 10 days due, most of the jobs got settled in a few days and not the usual 30 or more.
I've only got one deadbeat out there to date and he's going around telling everyone I charge too much. Last I heard, he'd lost his business and his reputation was going down the tubes.
I guess what goes around comes around. I won't see the $$$ from him, but I have made steps to make sure it doesn't happen any more.
Wayne, don't be afraid to go out and do what is necessary to make these people pay their bills. Hit them with a late payment fee, have a lawyer write them a letter, or the like.
It's your livelyhood, and remind them that since you have helped them with theirs by your good work on their signs, they should help you stay in business and make a living by paying thier bill to you.
Rapid
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
knock on wood....ive been in business since 1986. 19 of those years in sarasota, fl. and i never got stiffed on any job there. i threatened to break a guys leg...if he didnt come up with the $20 he owed me or give back the sign. moved to pensacola in 98, got setup all legal and a shop, 2 years and $15,000 spent, i had to close the shop, couldnt make the rent! since i been here ive been stiffed 3 times, 1 for $200, 2nd for $675 and 3rd for $300. and i only got one bad check while i had the shop, it was only $20, and after i called the cops in the small town she was from, she made a beeline to my shop to pay me. working with govt, is always a wait for money job. although ive goten calls from some of the military around here...and they all pay by credit card now. when i do work for people, NO EXCEPTIONS, if i need to buy material for their job...THEY CUT ME A CHECK UPFRONT....for thier materials. at this time i have ZERO accounts recivables....and i like that.
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
Small claims court. It only costs about $20. First send them a letter stating the date you intend to file and suggest strongly that they pay previous to that date to avoid being sued.
You get the judgement and then you can get the sheriff to go over with you to collect. Most people will willingly cough it up at that point. We had an instance about 15 years ago in a company I worked for where we got the judgement but the guy claimed he didn't have the money. It was a retail computer store so the sheriff sent someone over to sit next to the register and collect every penny the guy made that day and then hand it over to us.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Hahaha Ray, One of them IS a lawyer.
If his isn't paid by Friday, I think I'll load the 6' stepladder and bolt cutters and show up after hours. Two snips and about 30 seconds and it becomes a sample for the showroom...with a caption underneath.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Bob, you might like this one....
quote: Everyone is afraid that if they demand payment from the customer they will go somewhere else. And they will and they will screw the other guy too that got the job from you.
The same guy who has ben running his mouth about me being overpriced went out looking for a race car lettering job to some of the local sign shops. I called a few and told them what had happened here, more or less as a courtesy.
I heard he got pretty ticked and even threatened to sue me for slander. (Wish he had, I'd have won that one in a heartbeat....and probably gotten the original bill paid, too).
At least no one else got screwed by this one guy.
Rapid
PS: He got the lettering done, but his car looks like crap! Another Mom-and-the kids-shoe-polish-racecar for all to see.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Wayne,
Even better!
Here are a few choice phrases for him... "Breach of contract" "Non payment of services rendered" "Small claims court"
But watch it on the pulling down the sign. Another post has addressed the mistake that would be, and if he's gonna go toe to toe on this, a tresspassing charge is hiding in the wings. He IS a lawyer after all.
Rapid
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Threats about taking legal action are taken as just that.. A threat. "Everyone" threatens legal action when they want to intimidate someone. Any one in bizz for any length of time will hear this threat. Ive heard it myself from past due account holders to the point where i almost laugh in their face. .
So, protect yourself before the need. A Deposit with COD, or pay in advance is a good policy.
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
We get at least 50% on all jobs before starting work and collect the rest upon installation/pickup/delivery.
All out-of-state sales get paid up front then shipped.
Only two of my customers have Net 30 terms and they have always come through.
In 2 1/2 years I've had one guy order stuff where I didn't get a deposit and he stiffed me. I learned right then and there.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
My Wife called the company owing the $1440, left a message, and they returned her call. They sau\id the check was cut and waiting on a signature.
I called the lawyer today, left a message, no return call. Called again befor I left the shop, got the secretary who immediately proceeded to put me on hold. I said"wait a minute, I just want to know if you wrote that check" "NO I DID NOT!"(the Wife called her Monday and she assured her it would be written that day, she also promised the same thing last week) So at least she finally told the truth. She then ut me on hold and the lawyer came on. " I'm sorry, I was in the hospital with kidney stones, just got out, and the reason I haven't payed you yet is because a client backed out of a $2500 settlement." Then he starts telling me about his $15K per month overhead and blah blah. He says he'll pay me next week when he gets back from "Winona".
Anyway I'll assume the guy really has kidney stones, is down on his luck, and wait another week. Then I'll repo the sign. Don't think I won't do it.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
A couple of other thoughts come to mind; one is what is a reasonable time to wait on payment? FWIW, I think small claims courts may have some form of policy on this, regardless of what YOUR policy may be, and this probably varies from one area to another.
On my statements it says at the bottom "due and payable on receipt", but I would not consider dunning a customer for at least 30 days, and then it would just be another bill in the mail. When it gets up to 60 or 90 days, then is when I would start thinking of small claims court, or better yet a collection agency. There may be less return with an agency, but at least you get something.
With small claims court, there is no guarantee of collecting. You may get the judgment in your favor, but unless the sheriff is willing to follow up you may find yourself SOL. Been there once, and decided it was a waste of time.
The other thing is the threat of legal action---one has to be very careful in how it is done--otherwise it may let you in for a harassment charge, and all the headaches that go with it.
Repossession, or the well-placed brick is not an option in my book.
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
There was a really good article in Signcraft a bunch of years ago about collecting money. The author had good system of collecting money owed.
As soon as the account is past due, call them. "I'm doing some paperwork and have come across an outstanding bill for (whatever the job was). Was there a problem with the job? No? That's good to hear, when can I expect payment on that?"
If their reply is "The cheque was mailed" then your follow-up is "What day was it mailed". Tell them you'll give them 3 or 4 days from that date for it to arrive and you will call back if it doesn't. So, in a few days, call them (cause you know they hadn't mailed it yet). You explain that it hadn't arrived yet and if it had been mailed on the day they said it was, then it must be lost in the mail. Ask them to put a stop payment on it and issue you a new cheque which you will personally pick up. Ask them what day the cheque will be ready with any signatures needed.
The key is to make them tell you when to come and get it. That way they can't keep making excuses every time you call for your money. Before you go to get it, or even the day before, call to make sure the payment will be there.
The author of the article had a call log. He recommended keeping track of every call you make to the customer. Include the date, time you called, who you spoke to and what they said regarding payment. This will be a great resource for any court proceeding.
There was probably much more useful info in the article but that is the jist of what I remember. It might be worth looking up for anyone having problems collecting money.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Wayne,
Maybe the lawyer IS a kidney stone. If not that, he is at least a pain in the... oh, well... never mind.
One time, I collected a slow paying customer by showing up with a book in hand at his office just before quitting time. I pulled up a chair at his door and started reading. By 7:30 PM, I had learned LOTS about screen printing, he was hungry and desperate to go home. He gave me my check and I quit blocking his exit. Of course, this is effective if he has only one way out.
[ July 10, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: David Harding ]
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Haha David, Kidney stone!
I should have seen a red flag from the beginning. This is what he had me put on the sign, word for word: Should I have questioned the grammar and punctuation? I just followed instructions.
William ****** ******, PA Certified Criminal & Trial Lawyer
How do you get certified? An overnight stay in the bighouse or by passing the bar exam? What irks me is the secretary lied. Then got rude when I questioned her about the check.
I too require 50% down and the remainder COD. But most of my business is cash and carry so that's no problem. When they come to get their sign, they don't leave without paying. But I have to bill the state or county, all of these jobs were installed by us, and two of these clients go way back. We've worked for the large corporation since '94 and they always pay, just takes awhile. We made our first routed wood signs for the other company over 18 years ago, when they were a large corp. They are under new management now, so I got a little antsy when nobody returned my calls.
The only one who concerns me now is the lawyer. But I'll wait. I'm not afraid at all to go repo the sign. But it will diminish the chances of collecting the money if I do.
[ July 10, 2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
lawerys, real estate,property management firms, used car dealers, are on the PAY UP FRONT LIST...or go somewhere else......for me....
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Wayne,
I don't know what the law is in your neck of the woods...but in Georgia, it was against the law to repossess a sign. Turns out the client has the legal right to keep that sign for two years...maybe more at this point, without paying for it. Just like in Adrienne's case with the antique shop window. It suddenly becomes their property ...whether paid for or not. Please don't get yourself in trouble.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Here's another 'same old story' with a new twist: a kid (20?) opening a new shop in a fortnight wants a design & lettering in a hurry for the 'grand opening'. 2 street frontages, vinyl, logo, window splash, open hrs, contact details, all twice. Money's no problem, she collected a heap in a compo payout from a car accident that nearly killed her. Designs approved, go ahead (via email) she was away getting stock etc. I finished the job in under 3 days, putting other jobs back to do hers. Then the parents come in and decide the logo would be better a different way.....just please do this....."she's new to business they say, and impetuous, asks fro too much, she didn't really mean she wanted ALL the windows done twice...", next time I see her, after changing a bit of the logo, "mum's got the chequebook...", next time I see mum, the daughter has the cheque bk getting more stock....next time I see the daughter, "the money is in a term deposit, and hasn't been released..... mum's lending me the money". I feel like a pingpong ball. (This is starting to look like a post from Joe with all these .......dots!) I should have seen it coming. I'm slowly getting $200 a week. Whatever happened to honesty, and being upfront with the real reason? Courtesy?
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
like i always say: " do i look like i have f&*kin FDIC stamped on my forehead?" i'm not here to finance your business so pay up sucka! Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Whoever dreamed up that law was either an idiot or "certified criminal". I figure it's easier to get forgiveness than permission and, since I don't know what the law is here, will claim ignorance.
Posted by David Fisher (Member # 107) on :
There must be something in the water. I've been winding up a job for a guy, a property developer (read real estate agent - alarm bells ring) Sitting in his plush home office in an extravagant house in an oppulent suberb, I ask him about the professionally framed photos on the wall of a Ferarri Dino. Yeah that was mine, it gave me the kick into property development when I sold it for (insert rediculous amount) Shortly after that particular conversation he reads my invoice and begins to politely but pointedly describe to me that I must be one of the better paid in my industry. I politely but pointedly explain that he may well be right but I base my pricing so that I can still be there when he needs me later on down the track, and so that I can continue to provide the service that he is presently enjoying. The job progresses through the morning and when I finish I ask for payment. He then writes me a cheque for the full amount, as I pass his current model GT Porche in the garage he asks if I can hold off putting the cheque in the bank till Tuesday.
I fully expect that this cheque will not clear, I hope I am proved wrong. Knowing this I ask myself "who is better off" I will get my payment I will sleep well tonight. I won't need to invent a stream of bs tomorrow to put food on the table.
The world is full of ****wits, let them take a number and join the queue for their turn, but don't let them beat you. David
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
HA, I reread the sign. It was "board certified criminal".
Thanks for the sound advice everyone. From now on, new company policy:
Except for government jobs(they will always have plenty of money) and for my long time corporate clients, a few friends and relatives, absolutely no work begins without 50% deposit All jobs under $100 require full payment up front.
No installs until paid in full.
[ July 11, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by pcbytes (Member # 1444) on :
I think you should hire the lawyer to go after your other none payment customers and really learn everything he does to get your other customers to pay. (ask lots of questions and get copies of everything he does) He is now working for YOU be his worst client call him daily ask how thinks are going and how he is doing things. Then out of the blue use what you learned and sue him in small claims court it might just make him look bad in front of his peers. Also if you learn how he works against your other customers it should work on him unless he is a bad lawyer. Also do not touch the sign that would be trouble with a capital "T"
One idea is you could maybe take the sign in for maintenance and take as long as you want to repair it. I once had a none paying customer I did a website for and I took it down for about three hours (maintenance hahaha) and I was getting called as per what is wrong. It is amazing what happens when it is in your posession they come up with the money.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
wayne look at this way....you got a LAWERY ON RETAINER OF $1440.00...if you should need a lawery!!!!
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Joe, The lawyer only owes 171 bucks. Pocket change for him, half a week's take-home-pay for me. Hope I never need one of the sleazy slimy slitherin' snakes.
[ July 11, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
and these slezbags bill clients at $2-300 AN HOUR? and cant come up with $171 bucks....
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
People scoff when I say......in my old shop I'd turn away 75% of the people who came through the door. After you weed out the obvious deadbeats, the whiners who complain about price, and those who have a problem coming up with a deposit.
I never had trouble until my divorce.. seems to me that folks took advantage of my situation.... one 18 year customer actually yanked me for $10k the snowball affect was blinding and in no time I was in deep sh1t!
I have and would again, reposess, remove, and repeatedly visit people at thier homes on Sunday till I got paid. If it were me Wayne, I'd be some kinda busy visiting Monday, those who owe.... word travels fast and if you loose a customer over it, they weren't worth having to begin with. Any MoFo that can't get it together to pay up puts you in a bad spot.
My best customers are like friends to me.... they know my current situation and I usually get paid before I can get in the door, any doubt in my mind about a potential customer 50% down 50% on pick up.... oh yeah and F@#K installs too!! I sold my crane truck and got drunk with the profits.... 12 years later I still don't miss that crap.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Last I heard, he'd lost his business and his reputation was going down the tubes.![[Wink]](wink.gif)