I stopped into a new client's shop (an antique store, I painted their windows a few weeks back) today to say hi and see what was happening with the paintings I left for sale on consignment,.....
They were busy moving tons of antiques in for the upcoming auction (that's what i painted the windows for) in about the same breath that they greeted me with they made a point of telling me that I had 'overcharged them' by $25!!!!
Yeah, and to make sure I understood that they weren't going to let me pull the wool over thier eyes, he pointed out that not only did I tell him I would only charge them $125 for the window, but that another customer had heard me say the same thing!!
(yeah, it was my plan all along, damn!!! they saw my evil ways!!!)
Also, that it was ok, I could 'make it up to them later....' uh huh, ok or they could take it out of the consignment if my paintings sell....which they don't think will, just didn't seem to be much interest...
OK...so I leave, feeling awkward and kinda stupid............
I go home turn on the TV....surf into the local channel and see a commercial for the antique store, which is having an 'event'...the auction, and there they show my window for the ad!!
So......any thoughts here, heads?
Adrienne
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Confront them, Adrienne. That's crap.
k31
Posted by Pam Eddy (Member # 1858) on :
Adrienne,
That takes a lot of nerve on their part. $25 is nothing compared to watch their markup is on the antiques. Many, not all, antique dealers have quite a markup on their stuff and don't bat an eye at what they charge people. My friend who dabbles in antiques said to never pay their asking price. Always offer 30% less, many times they will take it and still make money.
Pierre is right, confront them, they know what they are pulling on you. Some of them are use to knocking others down so they can get the best deal and then mark it up once they have it.(antiques that is)
You are too good at what you do to take that crap. They are testing you to see what they can get away with.
Stand your ground.
Pam
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Hi Adrienne. It would seem to me, that they got an extra bit of mileage out of your window splash by featuring it as the TV ad...something that you certainly didn't intend. Had they NOT used your window art, I'm sure that they very well may have had to pony up way more than $25.00 in production costs associated with that commercial. This might be worth "pointing out", but it sounds like you're dealing with folks who would order a restaurant meal, fully aware of the price listed on the menu, then argue what they feel they should pay, after they've eaten the meal.
Many years ago, another guy tried to tell me that a friend of his had overheard me giving him a price that was lower than what I'd invoiced. His "earshot witness" just happened to be in his garage at the time, so I asked him if he'd heard me quote such a price. His "witness" turned out to be so deaf that he never even heard me ask the question. Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
My God, $25! What kind of a person are you? This is part of the mindset of a lot of these people. Either they are doing to someone or someone is doing them. Confront them, if anything shame them.
Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
Go over with a refund and a razor blade. Repossess it.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
give the same exact window splash to the antique store up the street, then get the razor blade out. that should put a new twist on their advertising dollars Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
its in writing? thats why paper is so valuable. if its written down. thats it..
Old gypsy trick..same trick different location. Why do so many have to try so much to so few.
sheesh
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
I'm a little confused. Why didn't they complain when you gave them the invoice? Why did they pay the extra $25 in the first place?
As Curtis mentioned, what's on the contract?
If no contract, it's your word against their's. I suppose it all amounts to how important of a customer they are to you. If I cared what they thought, I'd make some comment like, "Oh, I didn't realize I charged more than what I quoted. How about for the next project I take off the $25?"
Then you know what to charge beforehand for the next project. Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
No...I think I might have said $125...I was really hurting for cash that week.....I don't doubt that.
It's just that it sounded so petty...afterall...it seemed to be working for them. I don't want to have bad feelings between them and me, this is a real small town and I will run into them again. I will, however go back tomorrow and take back my paintings,I'll be real nice, tell them I think they would sell better at the local gallery (which I am a member of) and wish them success with their auction.
I was just taken aback seeing that they got double use of my work and it only cost them $25 bucks, which they would like back....hmmmm
But if I point that out it will be AFTER I retrieve my paintings!!
Donna, good point, I didn't mention that the guy (he's a partner) pointed out that the female owner who issued me the check didn't know of our verbal agreement....
Curtis, I will revise my contracts to include use for other advertising....right now it only says
'All designs are property of Splash Signs and cannot be copied or reproduced without a written agreement"
It often comes back to putting it in writting EVERYTIME doesn't it?
A:)
[ July 09, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: AdrienneMorgan ]
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Adrinne,
I whole heatedly agree with Dennis. Scrape it off and give em their money back. They will go ape
Don't waste any more energy on em...the best revenge is success.
Use their story to drive you where you need to be.
We love you kiddo and don't let them pull the wild look outta your eye! There's an ungrateful person on every turn. Show them how to enjoy life...by glorious example. You're the one with the skills!
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Adrienne,
Refund them the 25 bux, (with apologies for any misunderstandings) mention that you won't charge for the added exposure of the television ad, (since they seem so strapped for cash), and request your artwork back in good conscience saying that you have a space for it now that offers you better potential for sale. Yes, shame executed with class can be very satisfying.
Nettie
[ July 09, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Janette Balogh ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
A,
Give them $25 off the cost of removing the window splash! There's no sense sneaking around and playing childish games scraping the window clean in the cloak of darkness - for free no less!
That paint HAS to come off *SOME* time, right? Why not guarantee yourself the job and at the same time stand your ground on the cost of the splash job to begin with. Nobody else is gonna come clean their windows for free so if they know they can get a deal they'll probably take you up on the offer!
If *they* don't think your paintings will sell in their shop, there's no reason for YOU to believe they will either! It's time to find someone else that has a vested interest in promoting your artwork and who will make an EFFORT to move it! Of course, in times of high emotion (guess $25 is really important to them) they probably just said that with a case of sour grapes! Either way you dont need them.
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
PS...I remember you posting that window and I must say that I absolutely loved it. Please don't think we want you to scrape it off because it's not worthy...couldn't be farther from the truth!
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Adrienne,
You might want to just call the customer and mention that you saw the window on the TV, and mention that kind of advertising is worth way over $25. Ask them how much an ad in the paper for the same event cost them (they most likely have run one), then point out that they are haggling over a lesser amount for something that generated more promotional value.
One of the keys here is never use the word quote. It, by definition, is a direct statement and, by customers standards, an absolute. It locks a price forever in thier mind. Another problem is that when you "quote" a sign, often the customer will get back to you later and when you explain that it is now a rush job, they will never accept a fee for it. The quote will be all they will know.
Estimate is a better term. If you run into unforseen problems or difficulties, there is some flexability there for you. Rush orders become easier to bill and something like a $25 fee for extra prep or something similar is more easily accepted.
I hope you don't come to the point of scraping it off and refunding it. You did a good job and it would be a shame to lose $125 and spend the time taking it off.
I'd rather spend the time doing something productive than destructive to my work. In the long haul, it seems a better idea.
Rapid
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Thanks, I hadn't thought about removal after the event....good idea.
Besides, I don't have $25 to refund, I'm barely scraping by as it is...
I like Nettie's and Ray's ideas too.
Another thing.....I'm going to find out how much the tv ad cost them....I doubt if nearly as many ppl see the tv ad as the window....good point to make with them.
A:)
Posted by Steve Manning (Member # 3947) on :
In writing works best... Send them a bill for 25.00 for the second use on TV. Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
quote:Originally posted by AdrienneMorgan: right now it only says - "All designs are property of Splash Signs and cannot be copied or reproduced without a written agreement"
Looks to me like they violated your use agreement. Since they didn't negotiate the TV reproduction before hand, they are obligated to remit whatever reasonable fee you wish to assess.
I see plenty of car dealership ads in the newspaper with cars lined up in front of their window splashes for the "FIRECRACKER 4th SALE" (or whatever the current promotion). Same deal, if they intend to use the art that way it makes perfect sense that the additional usage carries an additional fee.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Antique dealers can be the cheapest and sleaziest mf's on earth. I've got a town full of them; only one has ever spent any significant $$ on signage, the rest get by with fading 30 year-old firewood, or their own shoe-polish specials. One old creep has owed me $75 for the past two years. It's just not worth hearing the bellyaching and excuses to try to collect; to hear him whine you'd think I was threatening to burn down his store and send him to Dachau. Besides, I get more mileage out of telling people he's a deadbeat and a thief, not that it isn't common knowledge.
The short answer: Get your paintings out of there, and when they ask for their $25, tell 'em the check's in the mail.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Adrienne
Go to their store and pull all your paintings out. Next tell them that you will give them 25 bucks worth. Slap a star burst on the window in no great size and walk away.
Thank them for their interest and you will hang your pictures somewere else. Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
Slam yur hand in a door a coupla times before entering the store, (I prefer a Michael Douglas "Falling Down" Approach)get yur paintings out and then confront them about the $25, and ask them if they were charged too much for the TV commercial too? Better yet call the tv station and ask them how much an AD like the one for this "Tighter than Skin on a Weiner" Antiques Store costs. I did a window splash for a car dealer years ago.....he wanted the entire front wondows filled up with lettering...I even added Clark Kent peeling away his business suit to unvail the "VO" on his "Superman" chest (Viking Olds) and I told him $975.00 He whined , he bitched, I said take it or leave it, because Mister, I read the paper and I know for a fact that a full page add goes for $1500.00 for ONE DAY. now, my window splash is working for YOU 7-24-365 rain shine Blizzard whatever. You will make more money on this than I EVER will!
He said yeah yeah, OK..get it done....He then used it for his TV spots, his Newspaper Ads, and it was on there for 4 YEARS! He got his money's worth!!!
So do your homework, and stick up for YOURSELF, they get a kick out of steppin on people's hearts. Not mine, not anymore. I don't hate the world like Bob Burns, but I have learned to stick up for myself cuz it's only fair. GO GET EM GIRL!
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Another thought is why are you trying to sell your paintings there? Doesn't seem to be the proper venue. People won't appreciate good art unless in the proper environment and at high prices.
Posted by Larry Elliott (Member # 263) on :
Adrienne, Positively DO NOT scrap it off unless you are willing to go to jail for destruction of personal property! I too was once fed up with two jerks that refused to pay for some window lettering, the store had been sold and the new owner said I should be paid by the previous owner, the previous owner said the new owner bought the store along with any outstanding debts. Anyway, after a year of chasing both these sleazers, I went into the store, demanded payment and said I would remove the lettering if not paid for then and there. I was down to the last line of letters when a cop grabbed my arm and hauled my butt to jail. The judge was sympathetic and said he admired my commitment to set things right but I was in violation of the law. Even though I did no 'damage' to the property (window) I did remove personal property (theft). So, once the paint is put on it becomes the building owners property. I stated that the paint belonged to me and all I did was remove my own property but the law sees it differently. The case was thrown out, everyone lost except the lawyers. I spent an afternoon in jail, lost another days work in court and $400 for lawyer fees all over a $100 lettering job. But,,, I did defend my priciples! (at a very high cost).
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Right On, Nettie!
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
If I sell something, it doesn't matter how they use it, they've already purchased it for however they wish to use it. Maybe enough wasn't charged from the start for this project by the type of responses this post is drawing?
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
When in business, we should act like businessmen or women, whichever fits. Theres no need to use a razor blade as well as a gun during confrontations in business, unless of course you're a sweeper, a hitter, or a down right idiot. Let this be a lesson to the many paragraphs one must add to their contract. I for one have a simple solution on my invoices as it says, 'any design change or extra work involved causes hovac and nervousness on my part and therefore a price change' They sign it before the project and then I start. Although my work may differ from yours, its all the same sh-t just a different day. If $25. is the difference between living and dying then you are in the wrong enviroment, no matter how much you love the place. Posted by Mike Pulskamp (Member # 3475) on :
IMHO If it was your mistake, and you quoted $125.00 but mistakenly charged them $150.00. You should do the right thing and eat crow. Go back and explain that you were not trying to rip them off but that you were actualy discounting your regular rate and later forgot. Ask them what they want you to do, DO NOT say that you will do whatever they want, just ask them what they want. After they have given you that starting point, pause and think about what will work, maybe $50.00 off the removal or the next splash, assume they are happy with the splash because they used it in the tv add (you could use that as the time to mention it and the fact that it was not a previously agreed use off the work) Don't get into a fight over it, just bring it up and move past it. It is an ugly place to be but honesty and integrety will pull you through it. Keep your cool. If they think that you are a theif already, there is not much damage that you can do to the relationship anyways It can only get better!
Good Luck!
P.S. Your stuff is to good to sell that cheaply anyhow!
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
quote:Originally posted by Joey Madden: 'any design change or extra work involved causes hovac and nervousness on my part and therefore a price change'
I love that line Joey. It's honest & to the point, but not too rude to pi** anyone off.
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
The guy who taught me how to paint windows had a favourite line in these situations:
"Brick through the window time!!"
Of course, he may have been a magnificant window artist, but most of his adult life has been spent in prison (where I believe he still is)
If this were Sacramento (and i painted windows there for 10 years) I could get away with being a bit snooty to them, but this town is so small I'm already running into ppl I'd rather not deal with again on a weekly basis....
No...I'm here to stay, love it too much and want to stand out as the best of what I do in town.
So...I will go downtown today, be very pleasant, retrieve my paintings, and nicely offer them free removal (for a window that size $25 is the norm) and mention that use of the window in thier tv ad is worth far more than $25, but I won't charge them this time.
And Joey, I'm not fretting over $25, they are.
A:)
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Joey, what exactly is a "hovac"? Hmm. Sounds dirty.
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
Offer to do their windows at NO CHARGE next time----do it on CONSIGNMENT--ask for a 3.5% COMMISSION on the Total Sales that you window work brings in, especially in the time of an event like they're showcasing.
Or, leave one letter off next time and tell them that the 25 bucks you couldn't charge left you a little shy on paint!
Or, spell it worng next time, telling them that the 25 bucks was going to pay for your new spellcheck program for your wrist!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
how does someone learn to be a window artist spending their life in prison? guess they could paint some nice windows on the wall? create any view they want too!
Posted by Randy W. Robarge (Member # 2022) on :
I don't really feel the same way as most of you. If I give someone a "quote", I usually charge that exact amount unless something changes as a result of THEM.
And as far as the TV ad, if their building is included in the commercial, what are they supposed to do, blur out the windows?? They paid for the work to be done on their front window, so I think it's fair that it's included in the commercial. It's part of their building now.
That's just my thoughts however........
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Now I'll chime in. Im with Randy on this call. I never charge more than I quote and I always make sure its written down. Ive had to eat a few screw ups that were my fault. Thats what keeps teaching me to be more careful.
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
I like Janet's idea. Wash your hands of these people in the most gracefull way possible while getting your artwork back immediately.
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
And that's what I ended up doing....I went in, they were friendly...I commented on how nice everything looked....they knew I was there for my stuff and promptly fetched it for me.
I asked the gal (one of the owners) if they had anyone to clean it off when it was over, she said she hadn't thought about it yet, I offered to do it for free since I had overcharged them.Just give me a call if they wanted me to.
I wished them good luck, put my artwork in my van and walked down the street to the Farmer's market.
Pat is right, I SHOULD have made up the invoice BEFORE I started work. I have a bad memory and just charged them my usual minimum.
That's what written agreements are for, aren't they?.
I think I'll copy Joey's disclaimer on my new invoices...very good!
Oh, the guy who taught me...? He's always had problems, very talented guy, tremendous waste of that talent. Very sad And, yes, he used to barter for jail pencils, and draw elaberate murals (Frazetta style) on his cel walls...cops were so impressed they took pictures of it before they made him scrub it all off!(jail policy)
A:)
BTW...I really apprieciate all of your comments, it's great to have so many big brothers and sisters Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Adrienne, I don't get it??? You quoted a price and then overcharged them and both of you agree that you overcharged them and you preceive them as the bad guys?? If it had been in writing, how would that change anything? You're not cleaning their window for free...they paid you for that in advance. You have their $25.
I think you should sign your name on the window in a visible location and be pleased that your work was used in the commercial. You just got tremendous exposure at their expense. Breathe deeply and be thankful.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
Having seen samples posted of your work, Adrienne, I simply can't understand why you're living hand to mouth.. The window was easily worth $250.00 Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Rick you said my thought so well, I hesitated posting because I feared my words would not come out so well.
Adrienne, I'm glad you handle things well.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I'll be the first to admit I've done the same thing before..
Customer asks for a quote, you give it to them verbally... a few weeks later they finally come back with money to get the work done and in the meantime you've forgotten what you told them so you charge your minimum (hey, why'd you initially charge less than your normal minimum anyways? hehe).
This is just the downside to verbal deals instead of written on paper, cause with paper you can spell it out right there that price quotes are only valid for a certain number of days and you reserve the right to change the price if they wait too long, because of work load or any dang reason you feel like charging more!
One thing's apparent, Letterheads (and Letterville) need a resource for marketing and self promotion because Adrienne isn't the only talented person here wasting their time with signs.
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Rick,
I'm not trying to make them out to bad guys,I just think it was kinda petty to tell me a full month later that 'you over charged us' in front of other customers as if I was trying to rip them off. I learned a lesson from this, (let's hope so anyway) to ALWAYS put it in writing.
I just didn't remember the verbal quote when the job was finished, I was tired (still feeling pain in my broken foot) and just wanted to go home and get off my feet.
(Word has it from other biz owners that they have a bad rep and I am better off staying away from them.)
If she calls me to clean off the window, I'll do it, and with a smile, thanking them for thier business, but I don't think I'll do work for them in the future.
And, I will from now on, make sure, whatever deal I make with any client, no matter how nice they seem, get it in writing.(why is that so hard to do? )
One thing seems to be certain, if ya put it in writing it almost always turns out without a hitch, and if ya don't it will ALWAYS come back to bite ya in the butt!
A:)
Posted by pcbytes (Member # 1444) on :
Hi This might help a friend of mine that sells computers would always forget what he had quoted as a price whenever I would buy anything. Now I know he was very busy and he never did it to try and rip anyone off he was just absent minded.lol He finally bought a PDA (palm pilot) and he used it solved most problems he had.
I do think your customer was being very petty over $25.00 they should of brought it up nicely and let you save face it sounds like they bullied you and accused you of theft. Some people think it is their job to wreck other peoples days. Your work is too nice and worth way more, it is time for you to raise your prices that should weed out this customer. Good Luck
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or they could take it out of the consignment if my paintings sell....which they don't think will, just didn't seem to be much interest...![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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