Where can I find Braille ? Most of the catalogues I have sell whole signs only. My delemma is that I have 20 signs that are white sintra that I cut out to a shape, and now I've been informed I need to add braille to them. I was hoping I could find some one who could do small white braille strips that I could add to the bottom of these signs.
Also, can I get a braille font? What I mean is, is there a corresponding Braille pattern for every letter/... or is the system more like shorthand or something like that? If every letter has a symbol, does anyone know if you could drill shallow holes and still be ADA compliant, or does the braille have to be raised dots?
I know I should know some of these answers, but this is my first run in with braille on customized sign shapes.
Thanks for any assistance in this matter.. Posted by Pam Eddy (Member # 1858) on :
Hi Jeff,
I'm not sure if I would be of much help, but... A friend of mine is learning braille to keep up with her son, age 8, who is blind. The Shriners brought her a braille typewriter so she could type strips of braille words to tape in his story books. This typewriter only has about a dozen keys. She said there are patterns of dots to learn and each sequence of patterns says something different. Seems hard to learn, but her son zips right through it.
Do you have a Shriners organization or some other organization close by you can call to get aquainted with someone who knows braille? They may be able to type out the information, which is the raised dots on a sticky-back strip like you were talking about.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Pam
Posted by Jeff Ogden (Member # 3184) on :
Thanks for the tip, Pam....I may go that route if I can't find a supplier or software,etc. I could probably draw the braille myself, in Corel 9 ,if I could get someone to encode the words I need to do, then transfer that to my plotter.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
You have the True Type file Jeff!!!
Posted by Jeff Ogden (Member # 3184) on :
Bingo! THANK YOU DAVE GRUNDY, for sending me a TT Braile font. Just perfect. You are a fine man and a great human being Dave. That's only when I'm being greatful that I give someone such high praise.
I sure hope I can do something for you one day.
Tommorrow I will try to cut several layers of vinyl & see if I can do me own braille. Then hopefully the delemma is solved.
Thanks again.............
Posted by Mark Sheflo (Member # 3608) on :
Jeff, I went through this very same thing for ADA signage. There are two types of braille in use, Grade 1 and Grade 2. Grade 2 is what you want. The differences are in how word combinations are put together. Just typing in the words in the braille font will not give you proper Grade 2 braille. Check out Duxbury Systems for translation software and a ton of information and links about braille.
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
Jeff, if yer really stuck for braille signs, Dave Beattie (aka "devo" or better known as Gail's (T2) old man ) now works for a sign company here in Queensland that has set up a Braille sign process.
Building ordinances have gone mad here. My signwriter friend just built a new workshop and was required to put braille signs on the toilet doors! How many blind signwriters do you know What about braille signs on a "drive thru" service lane!!!!!! I know we have a lot of blind drivers here hahahaha
And the final one ... braille "exit" sign at least 7'6" off the ground above a door ... Taller blind people ?
They aint cheap either ... Alister's toilet signs were $80 each!
Posted by Jeff Ogden (Member # 3184) on :
Well folks, it appears to work....I guess I'll find out soon. This morning I cut words 3x and put them one on top of the other. It looks just like braille to me. By the way, there is a braille character or dot pattern for every letter. The TT font I have from Dave is Braille Reg. I checked in my R.A.K. Ramos catalogue, and the braille on their standard signs looks the same as what I have here, so I hope I'm OK. Thanks for the great response. Oh, and Bushie, I saw braille signs in a movie theater !!!! I agree that this ADA stuff can get out of hand if the requirements get interpreted too literally.
Well I have to go put this stuff up...will be back tonight.Thanks again..........
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Jeff, When it come to ADA signs, there are quite a few rules and guidlines that you must adhere to, Florida being one of the strictest states, and is part of the UBC there. There is realy nothing to interpet in the guidlines. It is straightforward and should be consistant to allow those who use these signs to find them correctly. When translating into grade 2 braille you might (depending on the font) type "M5" for Men or "/airs" for stairs. Dont trust a catalogue, you could be typing gibberish to a blind person thus making the sign unreadable, which in turn serves no purpose. That is a liability issue involved, though there are no "braille police" if the signs are found incorrect, they would have to be redone, and possibly added to a lawsuit, there is a case in Californis now involving a minor braille issue that cost a sign company over 100k, so understanding the rules instead of interpeting them as is probably a better way to go here. When using braille, the visual characters that correspond to the braille message must be raised as well and be san-serif with specif width, stroke and height issues, there are contrast issues, (70%) Type size restrictions, braille size, dot, height, width, dot spacing, intercell spacing, the list goes on and on and on. What is bad about this is that most sign companies that do these on the side have no clue of these rules. You can get these answers from the ADDAG and DOJ website, or try Sharon Toji at 310. 323. 5210
Rick
[ July 08, 2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by Gail & Dave Beattie (Member # 572) on :
interesting stuff braille is, and yep the rules concerning it are amazing, in our country at least
Devo explained the process of building aust. approved braille signs and I can tell you I almost fell asleep half way through
first they have to design the sign then they create the sign blank with all sorts of tricky things like a leadin so that blind folk can find the braille section and the cut out section for the tactile lettering for folk who are not blind but vision impaired then they have another machine which drills the holes for the braill balls which have to be glued in and hammered home individually by hand... watching the women who do that exacting work made me think of the gnomes in santa's workshop... tap...tap...tap
then they place the raised tactile lettering in its place the multi layered sign blank can't have any rough edeges so all componants have to be carefully smoothed
I think it's wonderful that our government realise that alot of folk need this kind of signage and have made it legislation concerning all public buildings, but i'd go crazy if I had to make braille signs all day long
give me an airbrush any day!
cheers gail
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
How do you think I know, I did it everyday for almost 9 months, translating it, drilling, applying it, engraving it, routing it, silkscreening it, painting it................ those were the days.
Rick
Posted by Jeff Ogden (Member # 3184) on :
Well the customer has the signs.The ADA rules that Rick brings up are definitely in question on the job. When they ordered them(rush job), there was no mention of ADA compliance. Now that they are going up the question is raised about whether they need this or not. I believe that they probably are going to have to redo them following ADA guidelines. The grey area is in the fact that these are in a facility in a privately owned, church sponsored camp. The owners were of course interested in designing nice little signs that would fit the theme of this place, which is a river ranch kind of water park, with an artificial river and a wave making pool.
I am going to bring this up with them this week; I am also doing a 3x12 sandblasted sign for them. It was after I agreed to do that one, when they sort of threw in these other signs in a big hurry.
Well I don't understand type 2 braille at all. If there are dot patterns for every letter,then to my way of thinking, if you type in "WOMEN", you get that word as 5 braille characters. So how can that not be correct?
I wonder too, do ada rules specify the thickness of the raised areas? When I put the braille characters on this AM, they where 3 layers of intermediate, about 9-10 mil thick. I could feel them pretty good. And I'll bet I could "read" any sign that had vinyl on it if I was blindfolded....so I reckon a blind person could to.I can see where uniform placement of the signs would be important. See what happens/....you throw in a little add on to a bigger job, and before you know it that little added extra turns into a big deal. Oh well, if the signs have to be changed, I'm pretty sure these customers will be ready and willing to pay for them.
Well, I'll let you good folks know what the outcome is in the next few days. Thanks for the input so far.
[ July 08, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Ogden ]
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
HI Jeff I just sent you a file that explaines a little of the Federal Guidlines to you. But to answer a few things you brought up, usually it is the sign makers responsibility to know what is compliant or not since most facility management people have a hard enough time knowing the inner workings of a building, on the ADA issues and churches, that is relating to a place of worship, BUT there has been challanges to that ruling, in a public area, even owned by a church, but having publis access, ADA apply's. On type one and type 2 braille, basically per the guidlines and the Florida UBC, you spelled the sign wrong. There is a requirement that you did not meet, it can be likened to a different language, a language you don't know. To a blind person, your reasoning, could be offensive, since you are not following a simple requirement and bassically re-wreiting thier language. I don't mean to offend you, having been involved in case studies and working with certain organizations and people, that is thier mentality, and I don't blame them. "women" and type 2 braille is 4 characters usually spelled wom5, "men" is m5, "restroom" is re/room. I do have something I can fax you if your interested, and I'll be happy to share with you, from a sign company who specializes in ADA and is part of the Access Board. On the thickness issues, it is in that file I sent you. I hope that I don't cone off to strong, but it has been drilled in my head that it should be done right, and as a fellow craftsman, our work reflects our industry as a whole. Something I think we all try to do is do the best we can.
Respectfully, Rick
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Texas has TAS (Texas Accessibility Standards). They have a whole manual dealing with this, which is the ADA requirements with Texas specific regulations. There may be an equivalent organization in Florida. I don’t do much ADA signage, but when I do, usually order from Advance Corporation, Braille Tac division (800/328-9451). They are a professional outfit that stays up with the requirements.
My understanding, at least here, is that Braille now has to have rounded dots of a certain size. New Hermes makes equipment that drills the holes and pushes in plastic beads to make the dots.
There is software out there that translates into Grade II Braille. Many design packages, such as SignLab, have a Braille module–exactly what the Braille module does, I don’t know.
Posted by Jeff Ogden (Member # 3184) on :
Thank you for the email file, Rick. It just shows me that this whole braille thing is way more complex that I want to get into. If I cant type in a word and have it come out correct with the braille file I have, then I don't know what I'm doing, and need to order these signs from an ADA specialty co. It doesn't look like the vinyl route would be compliant anyway, not to mention that my original signs were serif letters.You're right Rick...this all needs to be professional if they are going to require the braille. I sort of got caught with my back turned on this one, as it was an added last minute item to a larger order. If I had known from the beginning that they needed ADA compliant signs, I would have just ordered them, end of story. But instead I am trying to make something that's already done work .Obviously this is not the way to go. I'm still waiting to hear officially what we need to do. Usually something like the ADA signs are in the blueprint, but not in this case.
Its funny about one thing....I had thought about drilling holes and getting beads from the craft store and tapping them in halfway, then gluing from the back....it sounds like that's the way some people have actually done it. Still need a translator though...I guess Dave's braille file is type 1 ??
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
My first computer oriented job was working for Hoffco Signs and Industrial Markings, here in Baton Rouge. We did lots of ADA signage. It was cool to watch the engraver making the little braille parts.
They could sell you those strips. Probably pretty cheap too.
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