To a client who brings ghastly "nephew art" or worse, something dreadful they actually paid a "designer" for: What We Say: "I think we can work with that if you'll allow us to make a few minor changes." Translation: "Find the parents of whoever drew this rubbish, and slap them for encouraging their talentless brat to take up "art". Slap yourself if you paid someone for it."
To the customer that wants you to deliver and/or install signs anytime (and leave the bill with an employee). What We Say: "We really need you to be there to approve the signs when you make final payment, so there aren't any problems down the road." Translation: "Nice try, deadbeat. Don't forget your checkbook."
To the customer who objects, gets upset, pretends to faint, grab at their chest, or other reaction when you mention a price: What we say: "Perhaps we can offer something more in line with your current signage budget." Translation: "Who the hell are you kidding? You spent three times that much on your kid's braces and your last facelift/toupee, and you're both still ugly. At least we can make your store more appealing, even if there's no help for you."
To the customer who wants you to "just throw together a quick sketch so I can show my wife/husband/sixteen other signshops." What We Say: "Of course, but we'll need a small retainer fee of $250, so that we can give your project the attention it deserves." Translation: "Look, pal. The only thing getting thrown around here is bullshyt, by you. It's like this: money talks. Especially yours."
Anyone else got any good translations?
Posted by Linda Schmidt (Member # 2337) on :
Cam- I know what you mean, we ALL do! My favorite is the slicker that walks in, thumps his chest a few times, and says, "Geeezzz, Linda, I hope you can do better than the 2 quotes I've got in my pocket here." So, I say, do you have an idea of what you want? "No, I just need to know how much it's gonna cost me." Well (gracious sir), how can someone give you a quote if you don't know what you want? "Oh, I'll know what I want when I see it."
Translation: Sir, RUN, don't walk, to the cheapest guy 'cause that will keep your sorry *** heart from giving out on you. I'm right here in town w/ you're business & you get quotes from 2 cheapoooo's 60 miles away- so, OK, drive an hour each way, haul the thing back, install it yourself, but, PLEASE let me know that $60 you saved was worth it.... please, oh, please!
Epilogue: Jerk always gets what he pays for- drives around in the latest of everything, dresses to the "9"s, etc. You "screwed" me once before- won't happen again- I could care less about the quotes in your ****in' pocket- you came here because you know I do great work and you want me to give that to you for "****" in your pocket. When I see you in my shop on a Monday and your signs are in place Wednesday- something smells.................bad! Posted by Jeremy Vecoli (Member # 2278) on :
I have been known to say: "I promise to give the matter the attention it deserves"
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
customer:can you bill me? me:aaaah sorry no...paymeent is due now. translation...whatta i have f&*kin FDIC on my forehead?
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Great post, Cam! Hahahahahahahahaha!
When I say...
"I'll take that under advisement"...
It really means...
"You're stupid, your idea sucks, and if I wanted s*** out of you, I would have squeezed your head."
When I say...
"I am sure that we can make your existing logo work in this project"...
It really means...
"Although your logo looks like it was done by a dyslexic moron, I'll use it anyway, charge you double, will deny ever having done the job, and I won't put our name on anything except the check you give me when I take it to the bank"...
When I say...
"I'm sorry but Saturdays are by appointment only"..
It really means...
"You don't work on Saturdays, why the hell should I?"
I have more but... Hahahahahahahahaha!
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Cam
LOL You never let me down. All I can say is AMEN!
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Cam, This is funny stuff, but I can't help looking at the serious side of it.
Why are people willing to pay more for a toupee or braces? In the past I've been able to predict a person's next move by "putting myself into thier shoes" emotionally. Often that's too gross, and I can't do it if the person operates on a mental level. I get too many ideas, pro and con, yes this, no that.
I'm sitting here pondering this, and to cut to the chase: Do people become thier own designer because the sign trade is often perceived as the hired gun? That is, we're somebody that puts letters on a board, and it just INVITES people to act as the boss, with the sign person as laborer.
Just my musings.
Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
My fav is the guy who calls and says "quote me your best price on this new 18-yr cast available in 180 colours"...so I do.
His response- "Can you do any better than that"
My answer- "I am sorry. No. When you initially asked for my BEST price, I gave it to you. I assumed you didn't want me to waste your time by forcing you to haggle, so I am unfortunately going to have to abide by initial quote."
Translation- "If you keep bothering me, buddy, the price will start to go UP, because I have no time for nimrods who think that this is a flea market in the basement of a church and I am selling my Dad's old stuffed chipmunk collection!"
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
I've dealt with the public for decades now and changes have happened in me. Though I can empathize with the topic and have examples, what really comes to mind is that personally I have rounded that corner & mostly I just go ahead and say the thing that "....I would have liked to have said."
It opens up a whole new perspective on things. I may not be that well liked, but I think I do have some respect. And I still have lots of work to do, after people stare at me hard and then say something like: I appreciate your honesty, or, "I've heard about you.".
Yesterday, a long string of interactions about quoting decals by phone/fax/email - that had been going on since Mid March - came to an abrupt end. I told the potential (new) customer that the correspondence was beginning to remind me of some of the ficticious humorous e-mail interactions people send me to laugh about. That I no longer wanted to re-quote and re-figure. That as of now all previous quotes are outdated, raw material prices had changed, and we are starting over. She responded by signing the papers and faxing back my original Estimate.
I think this is a very good post, I just can't, in my "old" age, resonate with it very well. At least right now - not knowing what may walk in the door a few minutes from now. Musing along with James and speaking in general, I find that being as kindly genuine as possible I actually get further with people than by talking around an issue. I hope that makes some sense.
And James: I am working on figuring out your musings. Sometimes you are quite obscure to me, and I feel as lost as if Tennessee were a whole planet away from North Carolina - but I know you have depth and it will be worth it when I get it. Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
James: I've pondered the issue of the relative value of signs to other major purchases, and it keeps coming back to this: The sign industry is not respected because too many of its practitioners have no respect for themselves.
What I mean by that is that every time a sign maker allows a customer to manipulate him or her into lowering a price, or a sign maker feels guilty about making a profit, or a sign maker feels sorry for every customer with a hard-luck story, or a sign maker resents others in the industry who are more successful, the industry suffers. All of those emotions and behaviors can be traced to self-esteem issues.
Myra: There are times when a "tactful translation" is appropriate in any business negotiation. There are also times when it is a complete waste of time. We have both been around long enough to know the difference. Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
I am in agreement with Myra on this one. These days what with social security and a retirement pension from my "other life" I do the sign stuff because I want to, and not because I have to.
Mention that to a prospective customer and price quibbling usually ends right there. The exception of course is the twit who says "You should be able to do it cheap, you can afford it". Well, no. If I can't make a decent dollar on it ---whatever it is--- why the hell bother?
Diplomacy may be saying one thing when you would rather say another---for the most part I cut out the first step, but still try to keep it on a civil and civilized level.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Myra, if I'm obscure, it's just me. I don't want anyone to think it's this place. Tennessee is really neat, I've learned alot here, and I would probably only leave if the Lord wanted me to.
I'll save the long explanation of wierdness phase 1, 2, & 3 for some other time.
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
James you are just like a breath of fresh air to me. You may be obscure - at times - but you are very genuine about it. I, too, love Tennessee. I get to drive through it at times and it is God's country.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Cam
This I don't understand?
I love Sketchwork that is brought to me. It shows the direction the customer wants to go.
I will correct it as much as possible within their money frame. But everything starts on a piece of paper.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I've gotten to the point where telling customers what the deal is straight up really cuts down on wasted time, versus pussyfootin' around trying not to hurt their feelings. Gotta be direct and make sure they get the point otherwise everyone is confused.
Someone has to take a solid stand cause we all know by now most customers don't know what they want, so we gotta make that decision for them.
I sold a jetski graphics kit yesterday to this guy.. the kit is a replica of one of the pro racers' boats but his own ski is more show than go.. At the end of the conversation he says "Hey, this might be way out there but how about a decal that says 'Kotex Racing' for the back?".. He was serious about the decal but wanted something "out there".. so I respond "No way man, that's too stupid.. How about "PenisEnvy Motorsports" instead?" Ya know, I was serious about his idea bein stupid, but my alternative idea was just a joke.. He bought it.
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
Cam hits it on the head again! Nice work Cam!
It's true...the general public sees us as the laborers that actually make the letters. The designers are perched high on the pedistal of ego. I try and educate my customers to get all of this done right here, right now. It's not the cost of some big wig designers, but it's fair to what I need.(Plus you CAN READ IT)
I recently LOST MONEY on a proposed sign job but DID NOT LOSE my pride and reputation. A customer Eamiled me the "Artwork her Sister, Extraterestreal" whatever, did and we need it on 10 18"X24" real estate signs. I said sure, here's my price..yada yada...She said great, tell me if you can read the artwork. I could but, after vomitting, I emailed her back and asked Politely if I could "Re-work" it a little. Heard nothing for a coupla days, so I redid what I thought would be nice and clean. Nothing fancy at all. I attached a sentence stating that It's just a wya to make it read a little better (A LOT BETTER) and if they wanted their original design I will do it if I have to. (OUCH) The response was VERY mad, and bitter...".How dare you re-do that artwork! STOP whatever you are doing! We will go somewhere else!" I responded nicely with , OK sorry, have a nice day. I WILL NOT make that kind of crap! If someone saw those signs and they asked who did them,and said my name, they would think I started drinking again! I'm glad it did not turn out to have me do the butt ugly just for a buck. Who ever IS doing them, will get their "Masterpiece Artwork" and and the customer wil no doubt bad mouth me, and HOPEFULLY the other sign person will cringe as well and say, I would like to re-do this too! "Ya can't read it!" Why spend the money on something that looks like s@#t? Just get a big magic marker, you'll get the same results?!! I refuse to do the crap! Thanks for a REALITY post Cam. fighting the good fight here in MAzeppa!
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
here's a good one a customer said to me years ago...."Does the price go DOWN if I get multiple quanities?" "I say.Yes." He said.."OK, do as many as it takes til they are FREE!" haha A man says to a sign painter on a ladder in a busy shopping mall....... " do you know what you are doing?" translation...."I am an incapable moron and I should not be walking the streets alone asking these idiotic questions that I already know the anwsers to."
"A yuppie with the sweater tied around his petie neck asked the pimple faced "sandwich Artist" if a certain sandwich was "ANYGOOD?" "The tired, been out in the sun lettering all day hungry as hell, sign painter standing behind the said "Yuppie" translates...."No it ain't anygood, I don't know why they spend millions of dollars on TV and radio advertising and have a succulent picture bigger than anything else on the frickin menu, so pompous asses like YOU can ask IF THEY ARE ANYGOOD?!!"
now step the HELL aside and let a workin man shove some groceries down his throat to live another day so he can pay the otrangeous taxes to send your boy "Clive" to a private school 70 miles AWAY!
(I loved the movie "FALLING DOWN" with Michael Douglas!) rent it..you'll feel better.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
There's always that age-old question that comes up with amazing regularity: "Can you just give me an invoice? It'll take 30 days or so to get you out a cheque."
Translation: "We really can't afford to provide you with payment on delivery, but if you give me some more time to run my business into the ground, you'll be rewarded with a letter from my trustee in bankruptcy, right about when that cheque is expected."
These types are also the ones who unfailingly want you to drop everything to crash out their order, kill yourself working overtime, and show up a day later than the date they absolutely had to have it.
If you insist upon a deposit, and balance on delivery, or pick-up, they usually don't have their chequebook with them. They'll often also pull the "offended...what, doncha trust me routine".
What I'm really thinking is: " Damn, I'm not a bank, and I'm NOT about to begin financing YOUR business operations".
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
quote:Originally posted by mike meyer: here's a good one a customer said to me years ago...."Does the price go DOWN if I get multiple quanities?" "I say.Yes." He said.."OK, do as many as it takes til they are FREE!" haha
Dang.. the guy's got a point! (It's a good thing his toupe' covers it nicely)
I'll hafta rent "Falling Down", wanted to see it when it was on the big screen but never got around to it. "Me, Myself and Irene" is another good one featuring a guy that snaps.. "Bruce Almighty" has sorta the same theme too. Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Cam said sign people often don't respect themselves. But I'm wondering if alot of sign people havn't thought it through. I've been guilty of rearding myself as a letter-making laborer as Mike M. said. It can be subtle, like: "I'm a sign shop that's capable of doing nice work." I just put new signs on the side of my truck, and they get looks, but now (since reading this thread and others like it) I'm wondering if I should've done them differently. Instead of saying "Donahue the Sign Man" in custom lettering, maybe they should say something like: "Business Image Express!".
It might cause customers to come into the shop with a different way of thinking. Somewhere between slightly intimidated to seeking knowledgeable advice.
Before I came to this BB, I had never been on the internet before. I regarded the sign trade as a wide-open, wild free-for all where you make a buck any moral way you can. But now, I'm starting to see it as a whole, not just as a bunch of machine operating competitors. The last week or so, I've been lightheartedly thinking about starting kind-of an ongoing series of posts called: "The A.P.C. Chronicles". (Advertising's poor cousin) It would feature and encourage ways of taking the ideas from threads like this one, and showing how the ideas go from the abstract realm to being manifested in the physical realm. "Where the rubber meets the road".
I don't want to be the poster child of said series, but I might be able to contribute. I've disregarded my image for awhile. Been relying on referals and other kinds of work.
And Myra, you're going to ruin my image. People are going to see me for the marshmallo that I often am (white, fat and harmless).
"All the world's a stage and..." I wanted to be the right-wing nasty bad guy. A regular aspiring Rush Limbaugh. I'm reminded of a scene from the original Blues Brothers movie, where they needed a gig real bad, so they stole one from "The Good Ol' Boys." They had to play in a honky-tonk dive, where numerous beer bottles were continuously thrown at them. The only thing that saved them was a cage-like thing that they played behind. Now picture me behind the cage giving blather reports.
See, totally worthwhile musings!
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
A little tact goes a loooong way...
We just did signs for a dog bakery. That's dog. As in D O G. A pleasant young lady moved to town and will be baking cookies and treats for Man's Best Friend. She came to me with some horrifying shmegma artwork done by a "designer" and I gently suggested a few changes... She was amenable, as she wasn't really happy with the "artwork" she had. So on the spot - this I almost never do - I sat down at the 'puter, with her watching, and put a sketch together for her.
The quote from her was: "That's EXACTLY what I wanted!"
Now if I'd told her the "unvarnished truth" - that the design she came in with was uglier than galvanized pigshyt - she might've got offended. And I would've lost a good job. So it works, and sometimes, you have to grab hold of an opportunity to make it work.
I won't say how much I got for two 3'x4' vinyl and edge print on dibond signs; nobody believes me anyway, or so I've been told.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Hi Cam! Haft'a find a way to laff at sum'a that stuff, don't we!? How 'bout when you ask them "What kind of time frame would you need that in?" translation: "...really don't matter...can't touch it for a month anyway" And they say "well, I'd like to get it this afternoon" translation:"...since my mechanic/Dr./dentist usually gets me in & out in a day...I just tho't..." To which I politely reply, "well, mam/sir, I'd need to do this and this and etc..." Translation: "Paint takes a little longer to dry than an oil change! ....Yer jokin' Dr. herds you thru like cattle an' c'ud care less if you die, and you DID haft'a wait a LITTLE while for them tee'fies din' ya???
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