well here is the stupid f&*kin 3' x 10' sign i just repainted...i put it outside for a few hours because it was in the way and i wanted to really let it dry b4 i painted on the outline and shadow. i wanted to throw up when i saw that it had blistered in the course of a few hours!!!! i'm sooo pi$$ed ...i stripped it to bare wood before letting it dry for a month, sanded it, primed it with ben moore impervex latex...let it completely dry...for days in warm sunshine, rolled on the shade, let it completely dry, masked it then rolled the brown...now the brown was still slightly tacky when we put it outside but sheesh that couldn't have been the problem right?? all latex ben moore impervex...what the hell did i do wrong??? i'll NEVER do another restoration again!!! i thought i did everything right..guess not ...it didn't blister everywhere...but should i expect that it will?...my only hope was to take my dremel and sand the blisters i peeled..then reprime and paint brown...it's only the brown that had blistered. i'm going to call the customer today and tell her what happened...i'll fix what i can and i won't charge her for this job(can we say bend over karyn)but if it peels to chit...i'm done, i'm not redoing it, she'll have to take it somewhere else...it couldn't possibly look any worse than it did when i got it. any advice for the village idiot?
[ May 27, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
Posted by Fred Floyd (Member # 2251) on :
OK lady 1st off I don't see a village idiot. Now to the problem. If it is only the brown that peeled and not the primer, I think you might want to take the panel to basic raw wood. Then prime with a full blocking primer such as Kiltz or Kiltz ll to fully seal the panel. Let dry thoroughly then sand lightly and apply the finish coat. sorry Fred Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Fred's right. You're no idiot. After allowing primer to fully cure for that long, you really do need to lightly sand or Scotchbrite the primer surface before painting. Particularly with water based paints.
k31
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Karyn, Sounds like your primer and wood were sufficiently dry. You said the brown was still tacky? I think that may have been your problem.
It can take several days or even weeks for latex to cure completely. If you put that green(I know, it's brown)paint out in the sun, that trapped moisture can push the paint right off the substrate. The same thing will happen if you sandblast a prepainted blank which hasn't dried completely. The heat from the blast will make the paint bubble or blister as well. If you had let it dry sufficiently before exposing it to direct sunlight it probably wouldn't have blistered. Another thing which may have further catalyzed the process was the fact that dark colors absorb more heat.
[ May 27, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
Karyn,
About eight years ago, I did four large signs for a gov. agency. Low and behold, a wannabee signpainter that ran a paint store offered me a deal on some paint that they had a surplus on. I got the job since I could bid a bit lower due to this. She guaranteed me the paint would dry as fast as fast drying enamel. Well it didn't. Two days later still not dry, so I had to wash it all off with mineral spirits (it was gooey at the time, what a mess). Then I sanded it down to the primer as much as I could and wiped dry again.
Finally, I repainted thin coats and let dry outside for two or three days, then handlettered.
These signs held up forever! It has been 11 years and the background is still nice out in a high wind area. Just didn't know the paint wasn't fast drying and putting it on at full coat was the mistake... From now on, I will be more careful in buying. (this was the only time I had trouble with enamel in 22 years, whether it be slow or fast drying). Oh well, disaster turned into advantage.
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
Karyn it looks to me just by the seperation from the brown colour that there may have been some wax or silicone on the board.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
This is a restoration job, right? That means the sign has been outdoors several years, and there's moisture deep in the wood. Put a fresh coat of paint on it and heat it up (in the sun) and the water vapor expands beneath the paint - instant blister! This is going to happen unless you go out and have the wood kiln-dried (which you just aren't gonna do). It's in the nature of latex paint to make a waterproof barrier; latex is rubber, after all.
Now for the solution: There isn't one. At least not like you'd expect. Leave it alone, take the sign out of the sun... and as it cools, the blisters disappear as the wood re-absorbs the moisture. It doesn't leave a permanent mark, but it WILL rise again in direct sun. Don't mess with it, just let the blister deflate by itself. When it does, go put the sonuvabich back up and collect your money. Unless it is close enought to look at closely, no one will see the blisters; eventually they will stop coming up as the moisture level regulates itself over time.
Are you setting yourself up for trouble later? Chances are, you aren't. I have re-finished a set of big old redwood signs (BIG bastuhds, 4'x 20') twice in the last ten years and they always blister like this - then it stops. By itself. Without a major failure, or anything else ugly going on. Drives you nuts the first time, after that you realize it's just physics.
Also, remember - it's a re-do. You cannot be responsible for the condition of the wood after it's been out there for years. ALWAYS make it clear, before you accept a refinishing job, that you CANNOT guarantee the results.
Relax, go have a puff, and chalk this up to a surprise quiz at Signpainter U.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Karyn, is that a new Grunge Font?
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i think it is by golly...actually it's supposed to look like a drunken pirate painted it. i still need to add an outline and shadow in black. After crying, swearing and throwing old fruit from the "oops i forgot i bought that 2 months ago drawer" at trees...i think i'm alright now...well i decided that i'm gonna let it sit for awhile(days)...sand those little blisters that i popped like zits...reprime and paint the basstaaads, deliver it, collect my money and pretend this was a bad dream...if she calls me back in a few months...i'll tell her i'll take it after the season(oct/nov)and redo it over the winter when i can let it sit by the woodstove for 3 months...but i can promise that i won't be refinishing any more old signs after this nightmare.
[ May 27, 2003, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Steve Nuttle (Member # 2645) on :
quote:(can we say bend over karyn)
Hey Karyn....ah...could you please bend over? Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
karyn, i agree with cam, be patient. by your last photo it looks like you are "pulling this one out of the fire!"
i too have run into trouble with customer furnished signs to be re-painted.
be careful about previously painted substrates.
when in doubt, sand the hell out of it and prime properly.
just another sign guy
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Out of curiosity, why is this a repaint instead of a new sign from scratch?
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
well the planks are old and fit the look of the establishment...and of course they didn't want to spend $$ on new wood and frame on the back...now that i've calmed down and inspected it more...it's only the top plank that had any blisters and there's maybe 25 the size of dimes or smaller that i've slit open and peeled. my husband looked at it and said, that's what you've been upset about?! the planks have nail holes, knots and divets all over it, after you touch it up they won't even know it ever happened" i guess i'm just going to let it sit for a few days...it's still tacky this morning! it's been cloudy/raining for over a week now and it's humid...not good weather for paint to dry...no sunshine in sight...i'll keep my fingers crossed.
Posted by bill riedel (Member # 607) on :
Hi Karen, I'll bet they are going to love it.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
thanks bill!! Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Karyn let me give you a different perspective on your problem. It can always be worse. I did a v-carved HDU sign for a client and the letters were to be 23k gold leaf.
Sign was about 2'h. x 10'w. 1-1/2"d. Using the best materials my money can buy right? After the carving was complete we sprayed three finish coats of acrylic latex Porter paint house paint, supposedly the best you can buy. It was a deep red/burgandy color. After a few days it was time for the gold leaf. Everything went smooth except I noticed the paint never seemed to really dry. It had a tack to it even when we installed it. I figured it would eventually dry here in the Florida sun.
Two weeks go by and I get a called that the gold is falling off. Nevermind what was going through my head. I went and inspected the sign and sure as hell, the gold washed right off during a heavy rain. Streaks and specks all over the entire sign.
Take the sign down and bring it back to the shop and the paint literally peeled off in sheets. The paint just would not cure. I suspected it may have been something to do with the pigments because it was such a dark color.
At any rate. I spend days sanding it all off and then shot it again this time with automotive acrylic enamel. Thats the only paint I'll use anymore that I trust.
Needless to say I lost my ass on that project so you senario is not nearly as bad as it may seem.
Live and learn kiddo! Oh and let me assure you that you will have many more disasters over the years.
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...i stripped it to bare wood before letting it dry for a month, sanded it, primed it with ben moore impervex latex...let it completely dry...for days in warm sunshine, rolled on the shade, let it completely dry, masked it then rolled the brown...now the brown was still slightly tacky when we put it outside but sheesh that couldn't have been the problem right?? all latex ben moore impervex...what the hell did i do wrong??? i'll NEVER do another restoration again!!! i thought i did everything right..guess not ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
...it didn't blister everywhere...but should i expect that it will?...my only hope was to take my dremel and sand the blisters i peeled..then reprime and paint brown...it's only the brown that had blistered. i'm going to call the customer today and tell her what happened...i'll fix what i can and i won't charge her for this job(can we say bend over karyn)but if it peels to chit...i'm done, i'm not redoing it, she'll have to take it somewhere else...it couldn't possibly look any worse than it did when i got it. any advice for the village idiot? 
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