I answered another post with the following...then it occurred to me it would make a good post on its own.
This isn't something new...but it would be good to cover it from time to time...just to keep things in perspective.
Mind you this is my opinion and I have said it as I feel it...If you have another opinion lets hear it...who knows maybe someone will come up with something that will change my mind (but I doubt it)!
I describe Letterheads to friends & aquaintenances as "A loosly knit group of people comprised of sign painters pinstripers and airbrush artists that have periodic gatherings around the world"
I sometimes make a point of also letting them know that there is no formal organization and these meets are more like "happenings".
Thus the main topic of this post...
Organize Letterheads or not? Here's my thoughts...
If Letterheads had organized it would have fallen by the roadside long ago...The "spirit" of the Letterhead movement and the quest for that "spirit" is what makes it survive...
Let us suppose it were organized...In my opinion... people and sign shops that have nothing to do with being Letterheads would swarm to be associated with the movement and promote themselves to their clients based on the talents of others...in no time at all the ranks of talented people that come here and go to the meets would be diluted with the ranks of opportunists that either have no right...nor desire to be Letterheads but are perfectly comfortable with reaping the benefit of the Letterhead name.
I agree this type of shop would fail...due to the fact it couldn't back up its reputation as a Letterhead...so whats the big deal?
The big deal is everytime one of them fails to deliver...the Letterhead reputation is sullied.
Be a Letterhead and be proud of it...take it to the level you are most comfortable with...but forget trying to "fix something that aint broke".
Organizing Letterheads is a lousy idea...always has been...always will be.
Posted by Pierre Tardif (Member # 3229) on :
I am with you on this Monte, anyway how can you organize something with the less organized kind of people in the world?
Life is so good!
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
I agree, I agree and if you did not understand that... I agree.
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
Hey Jeff
Do you agree??
I agree too!!!
Bottom line is, it will give good people a bad name.
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
I agree Monte-Pierre that beer better be chillin.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Monte, I do agree that the Letterhead movement should be true to its roots & never become an organized association. However, if we independent sign shops want to continue to survive and compete in the marketplace, we seriously need to get our act together and learn from our competition. In today's global economy, we as a trade, need to start thinking globally. We aren't just competing with the guy up the street any more. I envision an international association of signmakers that will have the experts and ability to sell, coordinate and produce projects on an international level in a consistent manner that will make any large organization envious. We can pool our resources and negotiate better rates on supplies & materials, insurance & health benefits or anything else we could use or need. Can you imagine walking into UPS or Ford and say I understand you're changing your logo and I can help you with that. I represent an organization of 3000+ sign shops in 20 countries and countless employees with the resources to fulfill the needs of your organization?. . . I can (:
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Mark Yearwood (Member # 2723) on :
AMEN, AMEN AND AMEN. I totally agree. The way it is now is what makes it special. If you formalize or commercialize the Letterheads, it takes the spirit and fun out of it. Some people would join like they join the Chamber of Commerce, so they could say they were a member, but never actually contibute anything other than their dues.
Letterheads, Pinheads and Airheads will leave busy shops, drive hundreds of miles, stay up all night and work harder on the weekend than they do all week at home, just to share the craft with others. They put aside all differences and wannabe's, beginners, novices and seasoned pros rub elbows in high-tech shops and backyard garages for what?... For the love of the craft.
I don't know of any other organized association that even comes close.
The only thing I would improve upon would be to network more among ouselves to help promote to the public our truly diverse talents.
My 10 cents worth... Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Monte, I went back to read your post for a second time before replying. I can fully understand some people's request for more organization, but I have come to believe that the "Spirit of the Letterhead Movement" is more than enough of a framework for success. It allows each of us to learn, share, interpret and advance in our endeavor. It does not place limits, time restraints or quotas on participants. It replaces demands with encouragement. Letterheads share and endeavor to bring back a higher regard for their craft.
Example: George at this minute has offered to make VHS tapes of hand lettering demos for a price too good to pass up. Organization would pad the price to "Maximize Profit". George's intention seems to be "Maximize Effective Learning" Thanks George. I'll be mailing you a check soon. The Al Zanetti tape is another example of Letterhead sharing. Thanks Kimberly.
It is something that is not only at meets and in Letterville. I spent Sat. morning May 16 in Covington, LA. with Joey Hutson(he says hello, Monte) watching and learning any technique, as he worked with airbrush, pinstripe and scroll brushes. He even lettered "For Sale" and a phone # on the vent window of a 48 Caddy, saying he wasn't much of a sign painter. He asked if I wanted to wet a brush to put a red stripe to clean up the line where 2 colors met on a 29 Ford Coupe. The colors met at a horizonal line formed by the bottom of the folding hood(Maroon) and White bottom panels. I gained several tips from this single job as the stripe passed over several contours on the grill molding, doorframes and behind a headlight limiting access. I have a few pictures of some of Joey's work at that car show and hope to share them here soon.
I have gained so much in any contact, I have had with any of the Letterhead events and people, that, they are seamless in my mind. I have asked about many of the elements of lettering and sign making and will continue to ask and build on my knowledge.
I also have learned on a multi, non-confrontional level that stressed experimentation and gaining different techniques rather than rigid rule and adgenda.
I hope that all letterheads will gain some of what I have gained from being involved in the Letterhead movement. No organization could do more.
[ May 26, 2003, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Santo ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
I have a motto.....I WONT, THEREFORE I AINT GONNA! This fits into my plan of ORGANIZED CHAOS! Do it ALL YOUR WAY, and keep changing to fit your own situation, keeping in mind that PROFIT keeps you alive. The hell with "competition" (keeping one squinted eye open at all times) and service those customers! And above all, HAVE A GOOD TIME!
[ May 26, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Bob Burns ]
Posted by Bill Biggs (Member # 18) on :
I'm with You Monte. Bill
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
OMG,
I actually agree with Bob Burns,
And I also agree with Monte if it aint broke then why fix it.
In early indain times, men went off and hunted while the woman stayed home and did all the work.
Then some smart ass figured it would be a good idea to change all that.....
Cheeeeesh.
If letterheads were to be organized then I would be done with it plain and simple.
And to those who beleive that the original letterheads missed out on an opportunity to financially set themselves for their later years are so far off track of getting the true meaning of the word that they should be sold to the sign franchise to be cut up and sold by the pound
[ May 26, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
I disagree!
The Letterhead Movement could have been organized as a "not for profit" organization and provided support, news letters, schooling, and tons of other benefits to its members, as well as funds provided to help less fortunate ones learn the trade.
I'm sure that you all benefit from countless non profit structured organizations, like the YMCA or cancer organizations and so on.
This web site is "organized" and because so we can all come here and intercange ideas.
Letterhead meets are "organized" and plenty of money is shelled out to go to one.
The befits of being organized far outway the dangers of the movement being "watered down" in some way.
Being "organized" is a Biblical principal. Its how things get done and bring benfits to to less fortunate ones.
Being organized is not selfish.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
It just is. & what it is, is why we're here. Any formalizing, officializing, or organizing could not help but change it. Then what it is would be lost. those things it isn't, are elsewhere... What it is, should be left like it is.
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Dave you have just hit the top and bottom of the scale. Yes, this site is organized and allows us to come together to excahange ideas. My compliments to the Mayor and Mrs Mayor on their dedication and considerations. This is without a doubt the top end of your argument. We can choose to be a resident or a visitor and still participate without being shunned. The residents are allowed some extra privilages, and that's a good deal. The bottomside of your argument being the comparison to orgainized as the YMCA is. The members pay competitive rates for use of the facilities. The YMCA is funded in part by the United Way, I comes with the stigma of an organization that spends an extremely high percentage of it's collected funds on raising more funds. This is the high price of organization. This is what is being argued against.
[ May 26, 2003, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Santo ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
"organization" is just another word for "the man that's keeping me down!"
Seriously though, I can see where more disciplined and structured shop owners would like to see Letterheadss be more of an organized entity, but that's jut the Type-A personality.
I could tell from the posts here and the people in attendance at the first meet I went to there weren't many, maybe only 1 or 2, Type-A types there.
If things got organized.. or too close to a corporate identity... it's over! There wouldn't be a Letterheads anymore, 98% of the participants would disappear because things got too rigid.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
How can one organize motives? A Letterhead is someone that loves what they do and seeks to improve their craft and learn and share with others of similar mindset. Organizations are citizened by folks that want to join or align themselves not necessarily by participation. Nothing wrong with making a buck, but letterheads is about the craft, not the business.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Well think of it People!
....This place is Well Organized....
How many times do you see (Steve or Barb) break up the conversations? Once or Twice when it gets Nasty. But not more than that!
But most times I think WE ALL "Organized or Control" the Titles or Interests.
And the beauty of it is..."We all have different interests or approach in the same field of Life.
So with Lots of Laughs "Ask me No Questions", and I will tell You No Lies! Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
I agree to a point up to about 98%
I am a senior officer of an organization with over 14,000 members. And I work in another business that became "organized" 14 years ago.
The 98%..I can attest first hand as to what monte said. There will be many who are opportunists that will attempt to cash in on the name and reputation. They become truely cutthroat and they did hurt the bizz with their "ethics". Luckily most of "them" are gone and the ones who remain are seeing the light.
The 2%... On the other hand.. Before, suppliers treated every single shop as a single entity and marketed as such. Likewise, some big suppliers started to sell to the likes of Service Merchandise and a others at deep discounts who sold products to the public cheaper than we could purchase wholesale. Complaints brought the line,, The suppliers said what diff does it make? "We already got you". The result was that "we" quit selling those products..
It took a few years but the suppliers finally saw the light. Especially when service merchandise and other big accounts went out of bizz. Suddenly, the suppliers were crying and came back to their roots and started to treat the little guys as a group with buying power. But this happened only after all of us made a point at a Chicago trade show that we will never again endure the treatment we did. But, our point was made that we and the suppliers will both win.
Now the other bizz i am in gets bigger discounts based on buying power. We have local (very loose knit) co-ops that buy certain supplies and advertizing at large discounts..
For example, each January my self and several other local guys get a huge order of some items. We save so much its almost embarrasing to ask for the discount..
Hey,,,, what if????????
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
If you want an organization why dont you try joining something like the USSC. or another sign council somewhere. I for one feel that this brotherhood is perfect the way it is and by organizing it. a few lucky people will benefit from it and some of us will hang on to the brotherhood, then there are others that will sit back and damn everyone who joined it and gave it organization and rules.
Trust me on this one. I have been involved with another organization that was a great bunch of fun. All of a sudden the president and a few other officers decided it was THEIR organization. Lets just say that THEIR organization went from 30,000 members 4 years ago to maybe 15 members. Now think about this, we only paid $35.00 per year to be a member. Where did all that money go to? That was a nonprofit organization too.
I agree with Monte and most of the others.
Leave well enough alone!!!!!!
[ May 26, 2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Harris Kohen ]
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
In order to organize you need a BOSS. This is where it all breaks down. Right now we all do our own thing when and where we want to. If you are self employed then that is the way you like things. If I had to play by someone elses rules in the letterhead movement then I would be gone in a shot. This movement has always been open to all abilities in this industry. Once you esstablish someone who is in charge you will make someone else feel they are less of a person. I just went to a letterhead meet(Mass Mayhem). I believe everyone there felt like they were a part of the gang no matter how long they have been in this thing. Let's keep it that way. And come on Mr. Draper, Biblical? Like organized religion isn't coming apart at the seams!!!!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i think we should turn it into a LODGE like the moose, raccoons, elks, bears....hehehehehe and the head sign guy gets elected for a 365 day reign. we will get one of "carmen meranda's" old hat and he has to wear it at all the meets and we will make a secret handshake and password that only us'in letterheads will know!!!!!at all meets he will have to also wear as part of the uniform a BIG RED THONG in honor of steve the leeterhead web site founder, and a cape and short red dress!!!! yea....awesome, bra optinal.....
[ May 26, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Rosemary (Member # 1926) on :
To me it sounds sorta like our band. I mean The Latigo Band. We're musicians that play music, some better than others, but once in a while we go to a place where there's a Jam. Everyone comes and goes from the Jam and contributes to whatever piece is being played. Nobody runs the Jam. We just all join in and play what and when we want to. If anyone stood up and tried to be the "leader", he'd get smacked with a guitar. Nobody runs a Jam. We all just contribute. Has anyone ever tried to collect dues from a musician?
:^)
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I think Rosemary's comparison to a jam is a good one.
I play drums, & I've been in several "bands" over the years. Sometimes the common goal was to WORK on stuff and strive for specific acomplishments. Many times the common goal was FUN.
When I became an owner of my own signshop 7 years ago, I was in a band that played for fun, worked on new material & ocassionally played bars or parties. Although we did not have real demanding work ethics, I stepped down from my part in the most talented group of musicians of my career because I knew my shop would become a priority that would interfere with all other commitments.
Since then I only jam anymore. Freeform jams were always a favorite form of musical expression for me anyway because of the communion that must occur between participents. Listening is more important then being heard. Locking into a groove & just staying in it is cool for a while, but to explore in a group, without spoken communication, is like a surreal journey. No one individual plans where we will end up. Each participent may hint at some melodic, rythmic or dynamic changes suggesting other directions. Others may or may not follow. A more convincing or inviting audio proposition may captivate the collective consciousness, & the process of how the parts converge on an unspoken idea creates a unique expression unforseen by anyone participent.
Anyway, I got a customer now, but I think things like the panel swap that were ideas presented here & molded to what they became by group particapation is an example of where the letterheads are similar to a musical jam.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Hey, Monte quoted himself. Seems like this belongs here more than the other post...
quote:Hmmm... I don't know, Dave...
Seems like a lot of "not-for-profit" groups have gotten away from their original intents and have had their leadership dipping deep into the coffers to satisfy their own greedy needs. Not all of them, mind you, but enough to make my point.
Money and power do crazy things to people. Greed and the lusting after the all-mighty dollar has ruined many careers, families, marriages, etc. The old adage, "The love of money is the root of evil" rings true.
Look at Enron, Adelphia, all the banking failures of the 80's, and the endless string of corporate raidings. Look at all the pension funds that got raided in the 70's before the Government put a stop to it. Look at the corruption that ran rampantly through the American Red Cross.
I am glad that "Letterheads" never united into such a group. Someone, somewhere would have mucked it up.
Imagine, if you will, that Letterheads did evolve into a super group of sign makers, sign painters, pinstripers, and airbrush artists. Fifteen thousand shops join the first years with 50,000 members ponying up 50 bucks apiece to join. WOW! What a chunk of change! Letterheads International is born!
A set of rules and resources are enacted to allow shops of lesser quality and abilities to compete with serious business minded and talented shops. Wow. Joe Wino is now a member of Letterheads International and afforded all the rights and privelages that we all are.
Joe Wino then launches a sales pitch utilizing all the slick advertising stuff that Letterhead International provided him in his Super Mega-duty Sales Kit #7. Too bad he is incapable of producing any of this high end stuff. But wait!
Since none of the other shops in the area will deal with him because his reputation precedes him, he will count on the spirit of the Letterheads to carry him through.
After consulting the list of available Letterhead International members, he chooses a contractor and then takes the cash from the job and books off for a three week bender, leaving a string of boohooing Letterheads in his wake. He can't be a loser because, after all, he is a Letterhead. His dues card says so.
If Letterhead meets were run to make a profit, then few people could afford to go. The days of being fed and amused for days on end for $50-100 would cease. Not enough profit margain to suit Letterhead International.
No one would write books because the cost would elevate from $20-30 up to about $60 to satisfy the upper management at Letterhead International.
Then, President Jaun Schott decides that he needs to go on a cross country junket to visit all the members of the Letterhead International. What? He decided to visit the southern shops in the winter months and the northern shops in the summer... Hmmmm.
Oh... he took his personal secretary, Anita (his wife), with him. And his brother-in-law, the Sgt-at-arms. and his wife, too. Gees, all at Letterhead International expense. Good deal for him, eh?
Interesting scenario... I think the way things are are just fine.
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
“Jaun Schott and Anita Schott” Bruce, I’m ROTFLMFAO!! To damn funny!!
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
Organized disorganization - or - disorganized organization keeps it together, grows it, molds it , shapes it, advances it............ so far.
Adding, without the type of "formal" organization that will sour the whole thing. Example: My wife is an epidemiologist. Outside of her job, she is also a member of a non profit professional group who's mission is to advance the elimination of (X Disease) in the U.S. through the collective, concerted action of the officials of state, local, and territorial government who are empowered by their jurisdiction with the responsibility for carrying out programs to control and prevent (X Disease).
This group is good and functions well, it does good for the "industry"... but it also raises a lot of questions.
Who funds it? Paying members. Do we also get some sort of federal grant? If so, what restrictions will be placed upon us in order to accept that funding? How much will it cost? What are we "guaranteed" by becoming a member? Who heads it up? We hire some retired guy and pay him a boat load of money to set up the central office, along with another salary for office staff... a great target for all of the finger pointing and criticisms from paying and non-paying members alike. When do they meet? Where do they meet? Why do they meet?
All of this and more is in place RIGHT NOW. This website is a great meeting place/TOOL/sounding board for what we need. Who supplies the info? Why do we supply the info? We do, because we have a real desire to learn more, share what we know...
What will formal organization do that can't be accomplished now?
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
We need some clarification here. This issue has reared up in the past. Some are speaking of Leterheads as this group on this board, while others are referring to the movement that has nothing to do with this board.
[ May 26, 2003, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Rick Sacks ]
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Oraganizing Letterheads is never going to happen, so this post is just another thread for bulling around.
But, consider this. Since there is no organization, no copyright of the name, no legal entity to protect it, who can stop someone from taking the reigns on and making it a legal organization?
IN fact, I think it a safe bet that the name "Letterhead" is leagally in "public domain" and anyone could cash in on it some way, somehow.
Lets say some unethical person came along and put up some sort of leagl entity and called it "Letterheads" anyway.
None of us would join it, unless there was possibly a free six pack of beer involved. All of us would balk, unless there were some good incentives to sign up! It wouldn't matter. Sooner or later we will all be gone, retire or die, and this no good, unethical, entrepenure will still have his growing oganization with a whole new breed of sign guys called "Letterheads."
I know this is extreme...but:
Who protects the "Letterhead" movement?
I don't think any of us would have any clout to stop a hostile take over. You might stand up and post a thread about it, but really...what are you going to do, legally We couldn't do jack by ourselves...we would have to ORGANIZE a couter offensive, except for we don't like to organize.
If this web site went down, we would all scatter. No direction, no news, no list of active "letterheads" to be found. We wouldn't be sure if and when there is another meet coming up, not sure if any would come.
We would see a lot of fights amongst "Letterheads" over trying to put another "Letterville" up and be the first to do it.
So, if we like it the way it is...how do we protect it!
If we love it, why not protect it, legally speaking?
[ May 26, 2003, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Does this need to be a case of either-or? Certainly good points have been made, (Bruce is bull's-eye), but I'm wondering if there's some way to make the public more aware of the difference between those that can deliver a nice design and those that don't care. It too would probably get hijacked, but I still wonder. Jim D.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
You can organize whatever you want, you can highjack the name, the history whatever your devious mind wants to steal but you can NEVER, I repeat NEVER highjack the movement, spirit nor the passion. That will always prevail and be obvious in ones work.
Someone can steal the name but when all the talent leaves the name means squat.
So with that in mind I repeat, dave you missing the point, this movement is like the wind a true spirit, it may be harnessed and used as an energy source to provide a need or in our case a lot of damn nice crafstmanship but you can never contain it nor stop it for it will change directions and just keep going.
And like the wind as it passes you and touches you it is well on its way to anotherone to touch that person in a different way. And if you do find a way to contain it then it will die just like the wind.
[ May 26, 2003, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
The idea of organizing Letterheads almost sounds to me like trying to unionize. Sorry, I'm out.
I did recently join USSC. To me, that is a whole different ballgame than Letterheads.
And thank you Bob Rochon. Your description is right on target.
[ May 27, 2003, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Kissymatina ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
"Letterheads" is up for grabs if anyone wants to trademark it, someone already had it but the mark has been abandoned..
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
LETTERHEADS IS JUST A NAME! It is what you do as a letterhead that counts. If someone steals the name so be it. It won't stop me from getting together with some buddies and painting some panels, drinking some beers and telling some old war stories. What we do has nothing to do with the word letterhead. I choose to learn things from others in this business and pass on ideas I learn to other who want to learn.....easy enough. Who give a ratsass if someone steals the name or calls themselves a letterhead. Copyright it, tatoo it on your forehead, carve it in your chest, it doesn't mean squat without the meaning and actions to follow it up.
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
The "Letterhead" movement is INTERNATIONAL!
It's grown well beyond the borders of USA, and as Monte says is a "A loosly knit group of people comprised of sign painters pinstripers and airbrush artists that have periodic gatherings around the world" We gather to share, newbies and Top Guns alike. You leave your ego at the door! We are "The Keepers of the Craft". It's not about money or statis ... is sharing knowledge and fun.
Don't ever try take the "fun" out of it! Or impress rules and RULERS!
We have a strong "Letterhead" following in Australia. There is the same in England and Ireland, with great "International" Meets. Then there's the Canadians! Who governs? Who benefits from governing?
We have a very loose set of "rules" here in Australia. 1. The next host of our main Aussie Meet is elected by show of hands at the current Meet is more than one shop nominates. 2. Any financial profit is passed on to the next meet to help subsidise entry fees. 3. Anyone can host a meet at anytime for any reason. Costs are kept to a minimum to encourage participation. (I have not experienced, or known of a meet held in order to make a profit yet). After hosting a Meet, I know the time and effort for no financial gain was well worth every minute of friendship and sharing.
Bob Rochon ... you said it all!
I have the highest praise for the original "Letterheads" and the spirit in which it started. Also for Steve & Barb who have provided a communication platform for us. You are all welcome to express yourselves here ... that was mine Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
We were actually attending our first meet the first time I heard this idea of creating a more formal organization. The Letterhead Movement had been growing slowly for sometime, but in Kansas City, back in 1983, everybody seemed to show up at once.
We were brand new Letterheads, but it was obvious to all that there was discussions going on about the future of Letterheads. I remember t-shirts that promoted Chapters Coast To Coast.
At the end of the day, everyone agreed that The Letterhead Movement should remain an non-organization. I agreed with that decision back then and I haven't changed my mind over all these years. There is a magic to Letterheads that elevates it above anything organized.
Posted by bill riedel (Member # 607) on :
How can you argue with success? When a handfull of young men started this Letterhead movement years ago, I'm sure they had no idea that it would become an international movement. I don't believe there is another group that even comes close to what we have. No other trade has the same spirit and love we share. As Monte says, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Why would anyone want to change perfection? I have belonged to many organizations in my time, but becoming a Letterhead was my finest hour.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Letterheads wa happening long before this site or computers in sign hops and the word got around then and it would now. This site is a wonderful opportunity, but this is not the totality of letterheads.
Posted by Kathy Joiner (Member # 1814) on :
I don't consider myself a Letterhead. I have only received, untill you can give, you are NOT a Letterhead.
But I do have a big mouth, so I'm gonna give my opinion anyway.
Organize? Why? There would be so much dissension in choosing leaders and drawing up a charter that there would be division amongst the group.
Proof? How many different churches are there?
Organize? No! It would be capturing and caging a free spirit.
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
The superior man seeks what is right; the inferior one, what is profitable.
Confucius
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Rob, that which is right will also be profitable, one way or another... there are more ways to measure profit than money, and plenty of people in this world who make lots of money while never turning a profit.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Confuscious also lived in caves and grass huts and took dumps behind a rock and lit things on fire if he wanted light....he didnt have a mortgage,rent,elec& water bills,insurance,withholding and bank fees to think about
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
Once again you miss the point. Slow down and remember what we are talking about.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Well I sure don't know what the **** we are talking about. But then I didn't read what many wrote. Is it my imagination......or is this place just getting weird
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Rob i didn't miss anyones point...just pointing out reality...i just see far too many people with too much talent using every excuse in the book as a crutch for not making $$$$ in this buisness,when in reality,there is no excuse,period...if you wanna do it... Being part of a movement that furthers a craft does not mean it has to be done as a mutually exclusive thing from using it to support yourself and family or turning a profit ....whether its monetary or otherwise...but far too many people think that it has to be and that in order for any enjoyment to be seen they must live this proud but starving artist BS. Sorry,not true.
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
You are missing the point Gavin as I was not even talking about the sign business as this post is about organizing the letterhead movement and some have said they would like to see it made into a non-profit organiztion so it can make money to fund everything under the sun. My take on this is, things are just fine a the way they are. As soon as someone starts to introduce MONEY & PROFIT into it, you will see it go down hill. Not once did I mention anything about yours or my sign businesses which do cost us money to operate. I was trying to say that the letterhead spirit as it stands now does not have to cost you anything to participate. Proof is, I get together with local sign guys to do just what the letterhead movement is about, TEACH & LEARN. It doesn't cost me anything other than time. You have the choice to take anything and everything you get from this movement and turn it into profit in any way you seem fit. I will not fault you for that. Yes, if you choose to travel to go to letterhead meets then you may spend some money. But that is your choice and shouldn't be the resposiblity of a Letterhead Organization to foot the bill. I personally think the way things are, are great. I have learned more in this Letterhead deal then I could or did learn in four years of college.
[ May 27, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Robert Larkham ]
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
Oh yeah, Cam, I don't measure profit or success in dollars. My business took in $27,000 last year. Barely a living in some peoples eyes. But I'm richer than my wildest dreams. I have a wonderful wife, two great kids and could not be in a happier place in life right now. I spent the better part of today floating down the river in a kayak listening to water roll over the rocks and I even stopped to have a conversation with an elderly woman walking along the river. Yes, I am rich, filthy stinking rich and I don't have dime in my pocket. Life is good!!! Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Cheryl,
Getting weird?????
hahahahaha
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Way to live Rob Larkham!!!!! And Bob I shoulda said weirdER. Seems to be gettin' weirder by the day.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
This has been interesting, to say the least...thanks for all the input...since we seem to be wandering from the original intent it seems like a good time to close this post.
Thanks again
HAHAHA...jokes on me...I was under the mistaken impression I could close my own post...since I can't...CARRY ON!
[ May 27, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
“Jaun Schott and Anita Schott” Bruce, I’m ROTFLMFAO!! 
To damn funny!!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)