well i just ruined all the edge decals i did for a van..i didn't have enough frog juice so i used krylon clear...well it wrinkled the vinyl and i'm running the suckers again...i'm tempted not to clear them but i know i'll be sorry in a year when they fade like h@ll.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Just clear them later when you get the juice. They may fade some, but not like "hell" I wouldn't think. I never clear any edge stuff & the Hawaiian sun is somewhat intense, but things look great after 3 or 4 years, so thats not so bad.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Karyn...I have had that happen to me too...Kind of a bummer when it happens BUT at least you know that the clear is biting into the vinyl and won't pull off with the transfer tape.
If you were using a Krylon spray bomb try pulling way back from the surface and applying several light mist coats instead of one or two heavy coats.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
One shot speed dry clear!!!!!!!!
Stock up!!!!!!
Nuff said!!!!!!
hahahaha
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
I'm with Bob, I use the One Shot clear. It works great, although I suspect that it's the same product as Frog Juice but in a different can.
But what do I know! Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Terry it has been said it is by the enemy camp but I can tell u the 2 react differentl soooo something is not the same somewhere.
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
I'm with Bob---OneShot UV Clear ROCKS!!
Has anyone had experience with FrogJuice 're-wetting' itself in the hot hot sun? I've heard stories about it going gummy/sticky in hot sun, but nothing really confirmed.
Karyn--with regards to your fading---are you using Gerber Foils? I kind of agree with Doug---I've done vehicles for years and seen no real problems at the 3 year point...
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
Only fade problems I've had are the following... 1. Cheap vinyl, anything other than Gerber 220 or 3M Hi-Perf. 2. Cheap foil, anything other than Gerber. 3. Them F@#%ing power washers with dergreaser.... this requires educating the customer. Almost 10 years with my Edge and that is what I know at this point. Hey Karyn, how bout this weather huh????..... put 600 miles on the bike in the past 3 days..... yehaa!! Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
well it got done with krylon..i guess i must have put it on too thick...it sprays different than frog...i will get the one shot though..i trust all the powers that say its great. here it tis..for sh!ts & wiggles Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
I have never had to clear them to keep them from fading, But recently this company has changed vinyl brands. - He screens everthing on white.
I noticed that the new brand has an awful adhesive. It's so bad you can put two together back to back and seperate them easily.
Do that with avery or 3m and you'll stretch them until they break.
My question is, Can you spray them with clear to seal the edges. I know these things will start peeling within the year. They are that bad.
Mike
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Ted,
I had Gerber Foils fail after a little over a year, especially Sunflower Yellow, Orange, Red. That is why I now Clear coat, I've lost Thousands, that's right, Thousands of dollars using Gerber foils and Quantam Vinyl without clear coating, I just wish that when I started using these products, that the Manufacturer would have suggested that I'm going to have to clear coat, because they do fade, period.
I was using the bloody Vision Vinyl for a Lot of Vehicles, But I'll try not to anymore because that crap won't even last a year. They forgot to mention that to me also. And at the price they are charging for it, it should last 10 years.
I Know, I probably should have been using the 220 series, but with our Market, It's impossible.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
What fails first on the Gerber vision Neil? Is it a fade problem, or is it an inferior adhesive? I have not bought any yet, but sort of looked forward to trying it. Maybe not anymore though.
Posted by Scott Pagan (Member # 2507) on :
Neil, I believe the vision is warrantied for only a year (with proper application). The main problem is what Doug was reffering to; that the design of the material causes it's failure. The holes in the perf allow dirt, grime, water, all kinds of things to lift the window film. Using the right laminate and installation techniques you should be able to get better results than less than one year. Proper prep/cleaning is a must. We use a 3M sealant on the edges to seal in the loose open edges. Also, many installers don't know to cut the film about 1/2" from the window gasket to allow for the sealer. These are a few minor steps that will help prolong the install of the window vision films.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i'm talking foils that fade!! and YES i do use only gerber foils and 220 hp vinyl...pay up the a$$ for it so it does indeed pi$$ me off when one of my jobs go by faded to crap...yellow is the worst...that's why i don't think the edge is the best thing since slice bread...it's great for jobs that are for 3 years or less..i realize digital imaging isn't quite to the 5-7 year mark..that's why i will stick to hp vinyl when i know my customer is gonna have the vehicle for more than 3 years...i pretty much use the edge for pain in the butt jobs that have fades, radiant fills, outlines and shadows and pictorials. so that's why i do clear everything edged that goes outta my shop! sorry to pee in your cherrios fellow edge owners..i'm just being honest.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
I'm glad you said it Karen, Because I was lead to believe that I was the only person having this sort of problem. I know the difference in that, always did. They want you to send samples everytime you have a problem... there's no need to, they know they have a problem and they won't attend to it, it's a simple as that.
Getting back to the vision vinyl, All the colors fade, in a very short period of time, it has nothing to do with application. I do install this product correctly, and it will still come off in spots.
It was just yesterday that I had to take it off a Van after only a year because the red completely dissapeared off of the window portion of the job, and guess who had to absorb the cost.
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
I don't sell the Clear vision anymore either. Same as Neil, no colours seem to last.
I am also siding with Karyn. I don't trust any warm coloured prints to last any more than a couple years (if that). And that's up here in the hot, sunny Canadian climate.
I clear everything that will be in use more than a couple years.
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
Gerber Foil Warranties are as follows;
2 year - Pink 3 year - CMYK, Transparent, 60% of the spots 4 year - 35% of the spots 5 year - Black and Grey
Quoting from Gerber's Sales Lit; " These durability results are based on accelerated weather tests we believe to be reliable" A significant decrease in performance life of printed graphics may be experienced when graphics have been applied to surfaces which are other than vertical, or when exposed to harsh outdoor conditions, pollutants, chemicals, abrasive contact, or frequent washings. Climatic variations will yiled varying results."
So, to go back to Steve/GEET's post, washing or the manner of washing can make a huge difference. Many MANY commercial vehicle applications simply are not washed with Soap and Water these days----chemicals chemicals chemicals to get the job done faster.
Lamination when it comes to durability is always a good idea for a more harsh environment---lots of good ways to do it.
Neil, if you're having problems with EDGE prints at the one year mark, I'd be putting my graphics on HP vinyl, not Cal, regardless of the price. I hear what you're saying man, but is the difference really that much more in price when you get down to it?---I know, 3 times the cost for HP over Cal, but you also don't want to be re-doing or get bad mouthed.
I usually tell my customers that EDGE graphics on a Cal are great for up to 18 months---kind of like a bumper sticker grade product. HP vinyl EDGE graphics are more into the 3-5 year range.
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
I've switched to Duracoat ribbons unless there's a color that only Gerber has. Print a 4-color process on 220 white with GSP ribbons, and then the same image on 220 with Duracoat ribbons. Do an alcohol rub test and notice which one comes off first. GSP comes off easier. Does that mean it's gonna last less? I'm not really sure, but I'm sticking with the Duracoat.
Posted by Mark Perkins (Member # 296) on :
I have a Fargo resin printer, works like the edge but prints on 12" x 26" sheets of vinyl. When I started noticing fading on my non clearcoated prints after 2 or 3 years I considered upgrading to a Edge, my biggest competitor has one....but after seeing that their Edge prints don't last any longer than my Fargo ones.....I think I'll save that 20 grand for something else.
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
what is this---BEAT ON THE GERBER EDGE DAY???
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Ted I love my Edge, I just have to clear coat, it's no problem really. It's just that the prints don't last like they are suppose to. Yes using HP is cost prohibitive in my market, and like Karyn said It don't matter if you use HP, It still fades, so why use it? I've used Hp before and it faded for me as well.
I don't have the time to send in so called samples of every job that fades, It's a bloody pain in the Azz. You know the problems that we are having, and it would be nice if you guys would Aknowlege them and Give some kind of compensation for the money and Time that we lost, if you want I could start posting Photos of the Jobs that failed, I have a ton of them.
But like I said I do love my Edge, it's a money Maker, when you clear the Prints, if you don't....
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Well, since I haven't hit the 3 year mark as an edge owner yet, I'm paying close attention here. I have bought wholesale edge prints from a shop who got there edge several years before me, so I do have some 4 years old jobs out there including my own sign, but I also want to keep learning & evolving my knowledge & production methods...
...So, what are the best UV protection methods? Frog juice from a can or spray has been mentioned, One Shot Clear seems to have a few solid votes here.
What about the foils? zeronine or otherwise?
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
The easiest thing I use to tell my edge customers is It will only last 2 years so they would know what to expect. I never had a problem with any of them becuse they knew right up front. So I used Zero 9 foils and Oracal 650 series. We actually has some graphics last well into the 4th year Surprisingly.. My 2 cents worth.
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
My question is: How long will the prints last when you do clear it with One Shot? And do you have to spray it on or can it be brushed? I'm thinking of ordering printed graphics for an upcoming job (Town signs), but it has to last as long as possible. I would really appreciate some advice. Thank you. Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Have I been conspicuous by my abscence in this post, or what?!
Guys:
Gerber EDGE prints produced with GerberColor printed on suitable (for the job in question) Gerber EDGE READY materials are very durable (3-5 years), unlaminated/uncoated for most signage applications, period.
Certain applications and certain environments are more demanding and Gerber offer plenty of helpful recommendations for protecting the life of EDGE printed graphics under these circumstances.
If the application is vehicle graphics that will be subject to abrasion or relatively harsh cleaning chemicals, then the use of Gerber Abrasion Guard or GerberGuard overlaminate is strongly recommended. This is not a tightly kept secret.
Gerber have spent alot of time and money testing, adjusting print settings, retesting, fine-tuning and approving all of their Matched Technology System components in order to ensure that -- when used together -- they provide consistantly superior results.
Plenty of people do seem to be using the 1-SHOT UV Clear with good results, but this is not officially sanctioned by Gerber. Neither is using 3rd party foils on 3rd party vinyls. If you do, you are on your own.
Other applications to be wary of: Any application involving non-vertical exposure Apparently (according to industry friends in Atlantic Canada...not confirmed by Gerber) salty sea air.
Lotti:
(Hi! How are you?)
I would suggest that you ask your EDGE graphics supplier for their input regarding clear coating or overlamination. Chances are that (assuming they're using all Gerber materials) they will tell you that clear coating is uneccessary, based on their experience. On the other hand, if your customer is willing to pay a little extra for graphics protection, what's the harm? Your EDGE Graphics supplier can easily apply whichever Gerber product is most suitable for the job.
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Jon,
What do you know regarding warranty when using this new UV Guard laminate? I'm bidding on a job that requires me printing spot black onto 220 metallic silver. If I use a cold laminator and apply the UV Guard, and any part of it fails....what would I expect as far as reimbursement from Gerber? would it just be materials? I need these graphics to last 3 years. They would be going on hard plastic tire covers for a major automobile manufacturer. I don't even want to consider a possibilty of failure on this one.
Thanks.
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
A couple of things that you might find interesting if not completely relevant.
I have a bumper sticker on the back of my truck that was printed, gerber ruby red on Oracal 651 series white. It is I suppose a vertical application. I made the sticker for the specific purpose of testing the longevity of the red foil.
Two plus years later it still looks fine. It has faded a little but overall is just fine. I'll say that I don't wash my truck often so chemicals are not really an issue.
btw, the bumper sticker reads... "Excuse me for driving so close in front of you !"
The other and possibly more interesting test is my coffe mug I have been using also for over 2 years. It has a multi color edge print on Oracal clear (I think 651 series). The mug is plastic and insulated. This thing takes more abuse than any other item in my shop and must have gone through the dishwasher a thousand times and it gets microwaved pretty regularly too.
I would say that the edge stuff is pretty durable.
I think three years outdoors is a long time for anything to last. I don't warranty any of my work for near that long. There are too many variables involved that are completely out of my control. Thinking about it, I don't believe many people would expect a decal to last that long.
I should mention that I don't care for Gerber products very much and I would never buy an edge. All for reasons not related to print longevity.
Later,
Steve
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Bruce:
Here's the product bulletin for Gerber UVGuard. The idae of this stuff is to put a physical barrier between things that might abrade or attack the printed graphic chemically...plus a bit of UV inhibitor to give some extra protection against fading caused by UV radiation. I don't think anyone will tell you how much longer it will make your EDGE prints last, definitively, however.
The "new" overlam (called "StrikeGuard") is a slightly different animal...highly conformable, for use in wrapping decalled helmets and the like.
I might be more concerned about you using silver metallic for this job than anything else. Going by memory (having problems accessing gspinc.com all of a sudden), I think it is only warranteed for 3yrs outdoors. Most metallics have a shorter life expectancy, compared to standard cast films. Again - going by memory - you might want to check out Gerber Stardust Silver...unique look and (I think) rated for 5 years.
Please check out Gerber's website to verify what I'm telling you. My memory isn't what it used to be.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
HI
Hot topic!
My work van has Oracal 651 w/Edge graphics. Two years old, still crisp and bright. Not garage kept, and machine washed at LEAST once a week....my two cents too!
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
These were taken 8:00 AM This morning, this a lit sign out front. The Names Signs1st is suppose to have a Sunflower yellow Gradient fill like the North facing side, the Southern facing one has no fill, it's dissapeared. This sign has never been through a car wash, And I can tell you I have never climbed up 20ft in the Air to wash it with any harsh Chemical. Also it was intstalled about 16 months ago.
At the same Time the Magenta is perfect on both sides, there's No Fading at all.
There's a problem with "some" of the Gerber Foils, period! Certain colors don't last like they are suppose to, period. Like Sunflower yellow, olympic blue, Red, and some others.
But if you clear them with a UV Clear like superfrog or 1shot, then it should fix the problem.
I just wish that I was made aware of this problem when I bought this Edge machine 4 years ago, cause I was "Never" informed of this potential problem when I was given the sales pitch. It was suppose to last 5 years, According to the Salesman, and also the Literature that I was given at that time.
I know, I probably should have done more Homework, and Talked to more edge users.
And By the way, I still love my edge, I just clear coat the stuff, it's really no problem, When I used to Airbrush everything I cleared that as well, and it gives the same effect, it gives the Graphics more Depth, it also makes the colors more vivid, actually even if the graphics lasted 10 years, I probably would clear certain vehicle graphics anyway, for the effect.
Here is a Job we did a couple of months ago, the photos were taken with my digital camera in their shop with no special equipment or even lights, and they are clear coated. I know there's a lot of lettering on there but they wanted it.
[ May 02, 2003, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Neil,
just curious, was that printed on Gerber Edge ready material or not?
And if it failed in 16 months what did Gerber say?
If you use Gerber foils and material then by all means call em and hold their feet to the fire
Thats one of the benefits of using the whole system.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Rob that's a very Good Question, I'm not really sure what it was printed on, I know that it was'nt printed on HP Vinyl, that's for sure. And I don't expect to get compensated for this Job, But all the other jobs that failed when I used all Gerber materials, and they were numerous, that's another matter. I don't have samples of all those Jobs that I replaced, that's too bad I know, cause that's the part that bugs me, that is how they get around it. Not everyone keeps everything.... BUT.....
This sample of my sign is suppose to clear any doubt about the durability of certain foils, especially Sunflower Yellow and Reds, I Know for certain that it was Gerber Sunflower yellow, because that's the only manufacturer who makes it. What makes this really interesting is that Ted said that Pink has a durability of only 2 years. But the pink on my sign has no fading at all, and it's an aftermarket Foil. But then again it's Majenta and not Pink.
[ May 02, 2003, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Bill Modzel (Member # 22) on :
This is an actual 4cp print on GSP 225 with Gerber foils,mounted on aluminum. I had this on a non vertical, (maybe 15º off vertical), surface which was an east facing roof of my shed.
The tbottom half is just printed the top half has been hit with FJ, applied with a foam brush. It had been on the roof for 4 years.
This is an image that we reprint often and the juiced part still matched the new prints perfectly.
A year ago I had stopped using FJ because of some chipping which occured as the vinly was cut the next day. I had two jobs which it wrecked, one of which walked back in the door yesterday. I'm going to mix up some screen ink, touch it up and overlaminate the whole thing.
I ran a test yesterday, about 6 foil colors, each with a small overprint and frogged it. I just cut it up with my exacto and there was no chipping at all. Maybe I can chalk up the original failure to a bad roll of vinyl or foil but I'm still a tad gunshy.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Neil:
I'm afraid that I've got to draw a line in the sand here.
I have personally offered to assist you in submitting claims with Gerber and have offered to act as your personal advocate in your quest to obtain compensation for these apparent product failures.
You are unwilling to provide anything that I have requested in the way of the types of samples or documentation necessary to substantiating your claims.
You've been offered assistance and have not taken it.
You have plainly stated that filing a claim is not worth the effort. This is YOUR DECISION. Not mine, and not Gerber's...So stop complaining about it!
To insinuate that you have been ignored, mis-treated or mislead is PURE HOGWASH, Neil...and I take offence to it.
The VAST MAJORITY of the materials you purchase for your EDGE are 3RD PARTY foils and VINYLS. From what I can tell, you don't keep good records of which materials were used on which jobs. How can you blaim Gerber for failures that quite plainly could be due to your choices in using 3rd party products?
The offer to assist you still stands, Neil...but you've got to be willing to help yourself. If you aren't, please refrain from blaming everyone else.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
That's great Bill, I'm happy that the Gerber Foils Last up to 5 years without lamination, ya right. Just look at the red, it's gone! How did that Happen? Huh? Oh by the Way how many Car Washes did you drive you're shed through?
My own company van that I had for three Years, faded Twice in that Time, Twice, I had to do my Van Twice using Gerber Foils and Quantam Vinyl.
Posted by Bill Modzel (Member # 22) on :
A quick follow up on yesterdays juice test. Seems I had missed slicing through one color combo, the one which gave me trouble last year in fact. Intense blue overprinted, in this case, over silver.
I just shot this macro with my Nikon 990. It shows the chipping where I cut the vinyl with my exacto knife. I printed 10 other colors with small overprints and this is the only combo that chipped.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Jon with respect, In the first year and a half I used nothing but GERBER foils and products, I Do understand what you are saying about not sending samples, I completely understand it. But that being said it's not Hogwash that there is a problem with these foils, there is.
And you are right about trying to go to bat for me, I don't have samples of all the Jobs that failed, it's too bad really, and I Apologize for that. But sometimes it's easier to just repair the job and get on with it
You know I could be out to lunch on this one, But how many people keep records on all the jobs they do, I really was'nt aware that I should be doing that at the time, and I guess that's my fault.
I will now stop complaining like an old man.
Posted by Bill Modzel (Member # 22) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bill Modzel: A quick follow up on yesterdays juice test. Seems I had missed slicing through one color combo, the one which gave me trouble last year in fact. Intense blue overprinted, in this case, over silver.
I just shot this macro with my Nikon 990. It shows the chipping where I cut the vinyl with my exacto knife. I printed 10 other colors with small overprints and this is the only combo that chipped.
Niel, I am not complaining about the fading on the non-coated print. This was exposed in a non-vertical, non-warranted orientation. It is amazing what protection the frog juice added though.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Just one last comment on this and I'll shut up.
I LOVE THE EDGE, And support from ND Graphics has been great, they can only do so much, cause they have their hands tied as well, sorry Jon If I misinformed anyone. You know that I'm a big fan of the Edge, I honestly believe if you clear coat them, then they will last a lot longer.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Neil:
I'm glad we're more-or-less square.
The SIMPLEST solution is to ALWAYS use Gerber Matched Technology System components.
By using 3rd part foil and (mostly) 3rd party vinyl -- and by not keeping records -- you make it awfully difficult to accept that the problems you have experienced can easily be attributed to Gerber...which only strengthens the need to supply samples for analysis.
Good record keeping is a MUST, in my opinion, regardless of what manufacturing process a business employs. It doesn't take alot of extra time to record batch numbers on your work orders...but it does take discipline.
Why record batch numbers on a job-by-job basis?
Manufacturers keep "retains" of all batches they produce. I'm willing to bet that if you were in a position to call ND GRAPHICS and say, "I'm having some failures with jobs printed using this batch number of GerberColor on this batch number of Gerber/3M 220 White" WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION. We could relay the information to Gerber, who in turn could use their retains to test the specific batches in question, confirm that there is (or isn't) a problem, and respond accordingly.
Simple and effective, no?
So why not start today?
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
I've had lots failures similar to Neil's experiences with Gerber foils on ScotchCal 220 which was cause enough for me to open my mind up to third party products.
Some of the prints that failed prematurely were all on vehicles while the same graphics mounted on my storefront are doing just fine after 3+ years.
First I tried spray on clear products which I found really broke our workflow, so I ordered in some FrogSkin from ZeroNine which is an overprint foil like Abrasion Guard but with UV protection features. That product failed in work properly in test printing from two different rolls. I next tried DuraCoat UV Guard and have had no problems with it at all. I'm in my fourth 100 year roll and if it does what it says it will do ..... extend the durability by about 50% .... then I'm happy.
They convinced me to also do a comparison of their process foils to both GSP and ZeroNine. I now use DuraCoat process color foils.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Fred:
Your experience (and Neil's) lies in stark contrast to that of the majority of GerberColor / EDGE READY users.
In Canada, I have NEVER spoken with a customer who reports the "numerous" failures that you (or Neil) seem to have encountered. I've never heard of another, either...and I've spoken to many, many EDGE owners over the years.
If product failures were the norm, how could Gerber brand consumables possibly continue to be the leading choice among EDGE owners worldwide? No amount of brand equity or 'PR' could buoy a product that failed with the kind of frequency you describe.
We take customer satisfaction with our products, service and support VERY seriously...as we do our reputation in the marketplace and that of Gerber brands. If there were some widespread problem with product quality, wouldn't it stand to reason for us to be the first to acknowledge the problem and correct it immediately?
For example, on the RARE occasion that a batch GerberColour (or EDGE READY) product becomes suspect, a whole process is engaged to isolate inventory of the suspect batch, to identify any customers that have been affected and to ensure their continued satisfaction with Gerber product.
Your experience - though unfortunate - is simply not representative...and as I'm sure you can appreciate, I wouldn't want anyone looking in on this discussion to think otherwise.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
I echo Jon's comments Gerber takes notice of problems. On the rare occasion that I used Duracoat folis in the past and had repeated problems, they blamed the vinyl the machine and even flat out old me to not use one of their products because it plain wasn't good at all.
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Jon, I'm in south Florida where sun fade is a much greater problem than in Canada or Massachusetts. And I don't want to get into a Gerber bashing session here. You should be careful what you ask for though, because if I related even half the grief I've had with Gerber's support, I would probably blow away several hundred potential buyers of their products.
I will tell you that my experience with Gerber's support of primary problem solving with the Edge and associated equipment, as well as associated materials, has been dismal at best in the almost five years that I have owned an Edge. This to the extent that I have learned dozens of workarounds and extra measures to get my work out and at a quality level I can feel good about. About half of the advertised materials based benefits and other features which caused me to choose an Edge in the first place won't work or require extra efforts to make them work because the equipment doesn't run to a reasonable tolerance.
And yes, I had my distributor and Gerber Service involved. The machine went back to the factory and was sent back after two weeks with the flat out statement that the machine runs within normal and acceptable tolerances. (It shifts up to + or - 3/100th's of an inch between colors using GSP foils on 220 film.) Try and run a prime coat or Spectratone with that sort of registration.
It is also reasonable to question, specific to durability of Edge prints, that GSP foils perform better than anyone else's. There is also no question in my mind that where durability is a concern, either from sun fade, abrasion, or chemicals, that extra measures should be taken.
Learning color printing is just about the most difficult learning curve I have ever gone through. It was made doubly difficult by hardware and software flaws, untrue claims and advertising, and ineffective service and support.
Jon, the simple truth is that Gerber is a vertically integrated supplier employing a strategy of proprietary technology and products and with a huge stake in selling supplies. Their policy over the last 20 years has been to do everything they can to get their system owners to buy everything they use from Gerber. This has often taken the form of untrue claims, unethical tactics, and scare tactics.
There is very little reason why one would perceive claims made by them or their distributors as being anything other than self-serving.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Fred:
With respect, please read my post above...
Your experience is your experience. Nothing in my post above implies otherwise.
The fact is that for every Fred Weiss, there are HUNDREDS of Bob Rochons. I'm sorry if that adds to your anger and frustration...but it is fact.
Now re-read your post...
For "not wanting to get into Gerber bashing", you did quite a job Fred.
You might want to consider removing certain language from your comments. I suspect that -- in retrospect -- you might concede that your better judgement was overcome in the heat of the moment.
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Jon .... with genuine respect .... I've reread your post and mine. Trust me, I was a model of restraint. I feel no need to edit my post. I'm sure you are, in your mind, speaking truthfully, but you are not in a position to state generalities about the satisfaction of Gerber Edge owners outside of your own immediate customers, who are a small minority of the total.
The success of aftermarket suppliers for both films and foils contradicts your claim. The standard Gerber company line is to cast suspicion and doubt that these products are up to snuff and, on several occasions, they have gone so far as to threaten the voiding of equipment warranties if an owner uses any such products.
If you want a list of specifics, I'll be happy to supply them to you privately and make, perhaps, a believer out of you too.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Fred,
Seeing as you have been on both sides of the fence a bit, please tell me who supports you when you have a substantial failure in a print job?
I tried that before, Duracoat left me out to dry, Gerber on the other hand took care of me extremely well.
Now keep in mind that I am open minded to other possibilities, like Signlab E6 as a replacement software, but again how far will even signlab go to support me in a failure. Gerber on the other hand goes all the way for all the products you use are theirs.
I'm not attacking you just inquiring how you deal with this situation for this is the main one that tholds me true to gerber.
A matched system with little downtown, and if there is a compnay that takes responsibility in replacing the materials and rectifying the problem.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Actually, Fred, your assumptions are incorrect.
I am actually in quite a good position to judge the satisfaction of Gerber EDGE owners...
ND GRAPHICS is a national organization with nine stocking locations across Canada
We're part of Spandex -- GSP's largest distributor worldwide and now Gerber owned.
Gerber brand aftermarket supplies continue to command (by far) the largest share of the Gerber EDGE market worldwide. Once again...how could this be possible if the products didn't work or regularly failed to meet customer expectations?
Spandex (sometimes to GSP's chagrin) operates quite independently from GSP. If we had quality problems with GerberColor and EDGE READY as serious as your experience might imply, we would quite certainly and quite swiftly find a different product line to bring to market. We market ONLY Gerber brands by choice.
The "standard Gerber company line" can be found here -- which you will find doesn't really match your interperetation...at all.
Isn't it possible that your (frankly) inaccurate perception of Gerber's policies, strategies and tactics might be confused with those of your Gerber dealer's (or perhaps even simply one over-zealous SalesRep...it happens)?
I'm an open minded man, Fred. Send me your specifics and I will gladly have a look (with interest).
Posted by Gene Uselman (Member # 2508) on :
Jon said:
Good record keeping is a MUST, in my opinion, regardless of what manufacturing process a business employs. It doesn't take alot of extra time to record batch numbers on your work orders...but it does take discipline.
Just wondering- how many of you edgeheads do this? Gene
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Bob, you're correct in that I wear more than one hat. And there are lots of things that have happened over 20 years of interacting with Gerber that shade my comments .... some good some bad.
I will try to stick to the immediate issues here.
We purchased our Edge LE in late 1998 while living in Washington State. This was just prior to the release of the Edge II and the drop in price of our model. The purchase was made from the Florida distributor with whom we had dealt for about 12 years. Simply put, his price was $3,500 lower than the lowest bid we received from the various GSP dealers in the Northwest.
In order, however, to have local support, we struck a deal with a GSP dealer to provide us an integrated network of PC workstations and an NT server. We accepted their recommendations to spend an extra $1000 for a MIP Plot Station on the server which brought us up to three Gerber dongles, keyed alike on the local area network.
We also agreed to purchase all our supplies for the Edge from them in return for their local support for our system.
Whe we started having problems with color to color print registration, the dealer provided a loaner and we returned the Edge to the factory for warranty repair. The loaner, by the way, ran perfectly. Two weeks later, our Edge arrived back. The test file we provided was unopened and the only feedback with it was that "the machine ran within tolerances". The dealer picked up his loaner and we were on our own.
The misregistration using all GSP materials was a measurable + or - .03" which is sufficient to cause overlaps to open up, primers and basecoats to be visible, and generally precludes the printing of many types of work that should be easy for an Edge system.
The upshot was that neither Gerber or the GSP dealer were able to correct the problem and I was left dangling in the breeze unable to accept numerous jobs that would have added to the business I expected to be able to do with the system.
What we did to deal with it Bob, was to learn to set up jobs, whenever possible, to allow for the lack of accuracy our system would afford us and to throw away a high percentage of misprints for jobs that were tougher to run.
The next problem we encountered was "print stoppages" in the middle of a job with no way to restart the job. We had a continuing job through a display builder to supply Ralph Lauren decals. Its a fairly simple job using Spectratone PMS color matches. There are four print passes in all.
The print stoppage would occur just into the fourth color pass about one out of three times we would run the job. This wasted about 8 feet of 220 ScotchCal, 25 feet of foil, and about 30 minutes of machine and operator time. The GSP dealer came out, tried a few things, looked at the ruined print runs, scratched his head and said he would have to get Gerber Tech Support involved. They had lots of things to try but no answers either.
At that point I found that the local dealer's service department was no longer willing to return my calls. In a call to the manager of the dealership, he said: "You purchased a low-end system and you should stop expecting so much from it".
I had, by the way, lived up to my end of the bargain we had struck and his statement was totally unjustified.
How did I fix it Bob? I got on a plane and went to an ISA show and visited the Gerber booth. There after several encounters I happened upon a junior Gerber service type and explained the problem to him.
His immediate response was that the problem had been reported all over the place and that I should move the Edge to my primary workstation rather than to have it shared through the MIP equipped server. His explanation was that there were software and interface issues which weren't resolved that would cause the "wrong dongle" to be seen and the job would stop printing.
I immediately tried his suggestion and we have had no further problems with print stoppage.
The $1000 Plot Station dongle, now useless, would not be accepted back for a refund and is now a daily reminder that even authorized dealers and manufacturers tech support can easily provide inaccurate information or fail to disclose known problems and cannot be counted on to at least rectify their mistakes.
A third issue arose after our return to Florida where we discovered one morning that our primary workstation wouldn't power up. We had at this point begun a much more acceptable relationship with a new distributor who maintains a full time tech support department and supplies us with loaners in the event of a breakdown. Our old distributor in Florida had been reduced to a supplies only status and could no longer support our equipment and software needs.
The powering up problem, we soon discovered, was related to our Edge and we could correct it by either turning off the Edge or disconnecting the printer cable. We also discovered that the workstation would not fully shut down if the Edge wasn't first turned off.
We called our distributor who immediately sent us a loaner Edge. In the meantime, Gerber Service also sent us several replacement mother boards. Things were as they should be with the support this time.
So we started swapping out various components. The printer cable, the boards, a new comm card in the workstation. The problem remained. We next plugged in the loaner Edge and it did the same thing. The final test was to plug the loaner Edge into a different workstation.
You guessed it .... it did the same thing. Conclusion agreed to by us, our new distributor and GSP Support .... All the PC's sold to us by the old distributor were identical so each would have the same problem. We had just never noticed it before. The only solution was to replace the network of computers or just live with it.
I find no fault with anyone in this last situation except the incompetent former distributor in Washington.
But yes Bob, these are some examples of how I deal with things that go wrong. I learned years ago that I had to take care of my own tools when others won't stand behind their products. Gerber is well aware of the problems I've related with the Edge and should have fixed it or replaced it long ago.
When I have a print failure, I stand behind it. And I give much more realistic estimates of durability to my clients than all the vendors specs would suggest. I also automatically include UV Guard overprint now to all vehicle graphics and other graphics that will see 24/7 sun exposure and offer it as an upgrade to borderline situations just as I might offer a choice of vinyl grades in the same situations. Most customers are quite willing to spend the extra money for the extra protection.
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Jon, I've emailed you privately.
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gene Uselman: Jon said:
Good record keeping is a MUST, in my opinion, regardless of what manufacturing process a business employs. It doesn't take alot of extra time to record batch numbers on your work orders...but it does take discipline.
Just wondering- how many of you edgeheads do this? Gene
Gene, we utilize the Job Description box in each individual job saved. We always note, since Gerber does not support non-Gerber materials in their palettes, whenever a film or foil is other than the assigned material.
So tracking down those particulars requires us to locate the saved job and open it. We do not have time to document information like this on paper and rely on job files archived to CD-ROM for handling this.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
Just curious,
Everyone seems to be talking about liquid clearcoating,.. would laminating films, cold or hot, work as well or better? If so what film would work best?
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
Fred; to get away from Gerber bashing, let's open up the scope a little wider here. Is the EDGE the only 'printer' you have in your shop? Do you deal with inkjets, solvent printers, other RIP programs, other design programs?
Surely you cannot point a finger only at Gerber---one must admit that support industry wide for various products and equipment can be spotty at best in many cases. And not to get defensive here, BUT--your business is unique, as are many other 'EDGEshops' out there. Developing 'workarounds' as you call them may not be so much a shortcoming on a given suppliers/manufacturers point as it is developing a 'workflow' to get a certain piece of equipment to do what you specifically need it to do. I've dealt with customers who simply won't let me help them, as they feel it would give away their secret--it is possible to hold your cards TOO CLOSE to your chest.
I've dealt with many MANY printer manufacturers, RIP providers, and material suppliers over the years---guess what? NONE OF THEM ARE INFALLIBLE. Doesn't matter what someone tells you about printing on something, it ain't always gonna work. Does this make it right----NO. But I think we're all deep enough into this business to realize that if you can get it right 95% of the time, then you're doin' okay....
That said however, if you have had problems that have been ignored or not addressed properly, then that's not a good reflection on GSP. I know that we as a Gerber distributor try to get things remedied even if the customer may be wrong or the root of the problem...
MIKE; with regards to laminates, films do offer great consistency. But, applying of films can be a pain for an unpracticed hand. Many things will affect the lam laydown, from pressure to dirt in the print. Film lams also do not help with edge pick-up of decals etc. 3M makes a great Edge-Sealer product for that problem in used on most commercial airliners, etc.
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Ted, we're a vinyl graphics shop with a strong focus on Edge printing.
I'm sure other manufacturers have their shortcomings as well, but that does not excuse the brush off received from Gerber regarding the registration issues that have plagued this system since its purchase.
Nor does it excuse the withholding of information regarding a known, widespread bug which ended up costing me well into four figures of lost materials and production time.
Gerber's actions in these two instances were highly detrimental to me and, IMHO, unexcusable and indefensible.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
No problem laying films Fred, 3 laminators in shop;
I was wondering which film would be best for UV protection on a Thermal Print, since we're not doing thermal printing 'yet'. Cutting the clear slightly larger than the print would make an effective edge seal would be do-able but would require an extra step. Print>contour cut decal>weed>laminate>contour cut laminate
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Mike, Gerber makes a UV Guard laminate that has a very good performance rating. Your approach will work but would be a lot less attractive than the following:
Print>Laminate>Bleed Cut>Weed
There will be some issues with providing a larger than normal bleed due to distortion you'll get by laminating and then cutting, but not a huge amount. Depending on your laminator and cutter setup, you will also likely need to waste 12" to 18" of vinyl and laminate to do this as well.
Using the DuraCoat UV Guard overprint isn't as effective as lamination in terms of added durability, but it's a lot less of an interruption to the workflow.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
What on average, in dollars is the average shop buying in foils in a years time, on average. Because if a shop is buying a small amount of materials, then they probably would'nt have too many issues with fading.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
yehaa!!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
