quote:

---

Originally posted by James Donahue:
Fred, this is fascinating! $1.1 million, way to go. could you give us any details: what they said, how they were distributed,etc? Did you see the article some years back in SC about how much influence the great Parsons had in a political campaign? I loved it. Maybe there's apart of me that's yearning to believe I'm not powerless. There's alot of talk about how the media has a bias. But please people, I'm not trying to turn a good post political. Just inspired by Parsons. Any details would be appreciated. Thanks, Jim.

---

We had been doing some firehouse mascot decals for several stations on our Gerber Edge before 9/11. After the attack we were asked to make some banners and general signage for a fund raiser the Palm Beach fire fighters union was commencing. A few days later we were approached with an example of a cut vinyl piece that the fire fighters wanted to sell for fund raising. It was pretty inefficient to produce and awkward to apply for a lot of people, so we suggested a window decal of the same layout with white print on clear vinyl.

This was approved and we began producing them as a donation for the first few rolls of material and then at cost after that on their insistence. The yield, as I recall, was about 500 pieces per roll and the firefighters asked a donation of $5 but many people gave more. One firefighter told me about seeing checks being written often in the $100's and a few in the $1,000's.

The actual selling was done at most major intersections by the firefighters with a boot in hand for donations and a second person applying the decal. According to our contact, the typical yield for such efforts in donations was about $2,000 per two man team an hour at it's peak.

We also printed up a variety of flags and patriotic decals for sale in house from which we donated just under $5,000 to the firefighters as a percentage of the proceeds while still retaining a fair price for ourselves.

These were some of the pieces we did:

Patriotic Decals
 

---

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
 
After 9/11, our newspaper printed out a huge 2 page american flag. My husband promptly hung it up in our upstairs window to face the road. When I first saw it as a surprise while driving to work, it brought a lump to my throat.

Also, there were some firefighter decals circulating for a long time with the american and canadian flags on it. I couldn't believe my eyes when my husband drove home one day and someone had attempted to rip it off his truck window!

Yes, very different this time in many respects. The canadian papers are certainly doing a good job reporting the goings on, but I've yet to see anything else. I think people are maybe somewhat hushed and overwhelmed with it all, very confusing emotions to deal with. I know I am.
 

---

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
since there already still on my server, I'll link to the decals I designed from the Roland "badge & shield" collection back after 9-11. I gave away about half, & sold enough to fundraising groups & end users to break even.

 

---

Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
 
I was told by loads of people that I missed an awsome oppertunity to sell 911 stuff. Instead I gave away flags and such to people and municipalities that would use them and not abuse them. I personaly have great distain for profeteers from any calamity.
It is well known that my shop offers legitimate discounts to veterans and serving members of our military, fire and police.
Today after riding past a pathetic looking group of "demonstrators" I curbed my appetite to flail obsenities and instead went home.... made flags with "suport our troops" at the bottom and returned to hand them out to the "demonstrators".
 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Stephen,

Well done!

Sometimes its all I can do to keep from punching some of them.





I suppose I could comment about the layout and the lack of margins, but I don't feel like it right now.

I suppose some will think that this is being patriotic.

[ March 23, 2003, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
 

---

Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
It takes all kinds, Glenn, and I dislike seeing something that nasty on my post.
It took less than 2 minutes to find something on line to counteract it.

Coming back to my original question:
There is a store here in town that heavily sold magnetic flags during the aftermath of 9/11, and who even parked a van at an intersection completely covered with them as an advertisement.

That store started running big ads for the same flags in the paper on the day we started bombing Bagdhad. I had thought about calling them, yesterday, to see how sales were going.
No need. Today, the ad is in the paper again, and the price is cut in half.



 

---

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I saw the best presentation of anti-war views I have yet seen on TV the other day. Several VietNam veterans against the war spoke at a meeting about their views. It was refreshing to hear intelligent anti-war views given airtime to have their views heard. Adm. Gene LaRocque was one of the speakers who I found very informative.


Too many in this country do not make an effort to find information, so when other folks spout prejudiced caricatures of those who support peace, either maliciously, out of ignorance, or misplaced perceptions of patriotism, they are helping no one, while hurting their own credibility.

Here's an offering from my 2 minutes worth of searching the net

quote:

---

Support the Troops: End the War and Bring Them Home

I'm getting pretty tired of hearing well-meaning but ignorant people say, "We can't protest the war--we need to support our troops!" As anyone who wasn't a right-wing fool in the 1960s knows, one of the strongest and most vocal contingents of antiwar protestors was Viet Nam veterans themselves. "Vets to the front!" was the ubiquitous cry at antiwar protests, and the members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (some 300,000 strong) were present at virtually every antiwar protest during the Viet Nam war era. Ten years ago, Vietnam Vets Against the war rallied once again to support GI resistance among Gulf War soldiers. Today they've joined forces with Gulf War veterans and other groups of veterans for peace to challenge all those who claim that supporting our soldiers means letting our government send them to war. The liberal wing of VVAW has been issuing statements against Gulf War II, and about the concerns of and for soldiers for over a year now. The radical wing (splintered off in the 1980s, with a hard-line Marxist perspective) is still active as well, and operates under the name Vietnam Veterans Against the War-Anti-Imperialist. You can find the comments of more antiwar veterans at Veterans For Peace and Citizen Soldier.


The right wing has done everything it could to erase the voices of the majority of Viet Nam veterans in the wake of the disaster that was U.S. policy during the Sixties and early Seventies. The idea that the peace movement is anti-soldier is an outright lie. Of all the tales of peace activists spitting on Viet Nam veterans that I've ever heard or read about, not a single one has ever been documented. I have, however, seen footage of World War II veterans, who belonged to Veterans of Foreign Wars, spitting in contempt at the feet of Viet Nam veterans at a peace march. It's the right who hates soldiers and wants to kill them. It's the left who wants to bring the soldiers home, who respects human life and human rights.

---

 

---

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
 
I believe Myra's intent was to discuss signage relating to patriotism. It's so easy to get off topic as we all want to discuss this in depth! Best to get back on topic or risk getting another post locked.
 

---

Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
 
Donna's correct but thanks, Doug, that needs to be posted Somewhere.
 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Doug,

You're right, it is important to find out information from all sides. So, I submit to you and others the following.....

quote:

---

A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head." -- http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r

---

While the Anti-War crowd say they want "peace", by their actions they are unintentionally protecting sadists and murderers. Its a lesson these human shields had to learn the hard way. War protestors may think they are helping cause of peace. All they are doing is extending the war and misery of their fellow human beings that they say they support.

Sorry, thats just how I "feel."

---

As to patriotic signage, I'll add this.....




I love the hat.

[ March 23, 2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
 

---

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
See, as time passes more information becomes available to Glenn, & the world. With more time spent on getting information out to the world, maybe global opinion could have turned more fully against Saddam, & with more universal & unanimous opposition to Saddam's murderous ways. (which BTW no one needs convincing of)

If world opinion had been aligned fully before going in to disarm Saddam, maybe the increased imbalance of a unified world against one country, would have increased the chance of more surrendering troops, less pockets of resistance, & as a result less death & destruction on both sides of this war.

Thanks for sharing the graphic description of screams from victims being brutally shredded by Saddam, but I have the 12 American POW's on my mind right now & that is depressing enough.

As I said, I don't think anyone needs to be convinced of Saddam's brutality. I have said this past week that I became convinced that the goal of disarming Saddam would probably not be achieved without force. The issue of U.S. force being applied before the global community rallied their support has got to have some effect on the outcome, both in how Iraq's troops evaluate their option of surrender, & in how global public opinion shapes the future of America's standing in the world.

oh yeah, here's a sign...

 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Doug,

All of that is well and good. But, sometimes you have to do what is right regardless of "global opinion." What is sad to me is that it has taken the start of this war for it to begin turning.

---




 

---

Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
 
Myra, sorry your post has been used for more of the same ol stuff. Anyway, here also is some interesting reading:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-605441,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A52450-2003Jan27¬Found=true
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/04/opinion/04DOWD.html
 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
John,

You forgot to include a pic of a patriotic sign.

BTW....

Link 1) 45 countries are in the Coalition. Looks like Dubya took his dad's advice.

Link 2) Schwarzkopf changed his mind two weeks later. http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/special_packages/galloway/5133416.htm

Link 3) Maureen Dowd? Well, there's an objective source for information.

---

Mandatory peace sign....


 

---

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
link 1 :
No Glenn, those 41 countries are not the international support GWB's father was suggesting dubya wait for

quote:

---

In an ominous warning for his son, Mr Bush Sr said that he would have been able to achieve nothing if he had jeopardised future relations by ignoring the UN...
...Mr Bush Jr, who is said never to forget even relatively minor slights, has alarmed analysts with the way in which he has allowed senior Administration figures such as Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, aggressively to criticise France and Germany.

---

Link 2:
once again you prove that given time, the evidence that is gathered & made available could shed light on an incredibly important issue to the world. If even "Stormin' Norman" didn't have enough data to stop denouncing this war on Iraq until last month, maybe the rest of the world should have been given a little more time as well. Thus allowing dubya to proceed in line with the advice from George Bush 41 (in John's link 1 above)

Link 3:
Having read all three in their entirety, # 3 did the least for me so I'm not inclined to put much into defending it. Regardless of what Maureen Dowd's reputation is (I have no clue)she does have quotes from Newsweek, Fox News, Bush senior, & Bush junior so I would think it has more credability then just a single reporters opinion.

oops, forgot a pic...


[ March 23, 2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Doug,

With the recent news, I think we know why now.

It seems that not only has German companies been illegally supplying Iraq weapons manufacturing equipment, Russian companies have been illegally supplying GPS jammers, anti-tank weapons and night-vision goggles. All four countries - Russia, France, China & Germany - have been circumventing Iraq's "containment." No wonder they were opposed to the coalition. Seems Rumsfeld was justified in his criticism.

Now the troops have found a 100 acre chemical weapons facility that Blix and the UN didn't know about.

I'm just curious as to why France said it would veto any second resolution regardless.

---


 

---

Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
 
Now, THAT is nice...

and the sign is cool, too... Great illustration. I like the retostyle on it. The lettering is clean and nicely laid out. Good use of negative space. The colors give the sign some nice visual impact.

I'd give that piece... er... peace a chance...

Have a great one!

Almost forgot...


 

---

Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
If there were another outlet for our emotions, which are running amok at this time of war, I feel this post would not have been hijacked to pose as one.
I guess the “political” in the heading drew the patriots and nationalists with their various offerings for public perusal.

I looked it up:

Patriotism is the love for or the devotion to one’s country.

Nationalism is the loyalty and devotion to a nation, exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promoting it’s culture and interests as opposed to those of others

So to me these definitions mean that a true patriot does not have to hide behind nationalism and the waving of flags to justify causes that are clearly not altruistic; in favor of humanity.
A true patriot does not have to support the requests for more guns and weapons from a President who behaves like an out of control war machine, and then, out of the other side of his mouth, asks us to pray for peace.

Instead, I think, a true patriot carefully and vocally questions the actions and words of his or her leadership and always seeks the truth. There should not be any faulting of him or her for this by nationalists.

Confusing patriotism and nationalism is happening and it is a dangerous mistake, because in the inflamed and hateful rhetoric the truth gets distorted, unrecognized, lost.

On my rotating quote screen saver one quote keeps showing up:
“Nationalism is an infantile idea. It is the measles of mankind” Albert Einstein.

Americans are an honorable and loving people. We Americans at this very time must guard against unquestioningly and blindly accepting the actions of our leaders as honorable.
There are, I believe, some 160 countries that do NOT think we are doing the right thing.
Some of those are long time friends and allies; who, in my opinion, instead of going along with what they think is a rash and unnecessary action are acting as global patriots by opposing it.

Somewhere in what I just wrote is an answer to explain why at a time when we are losing our soldiers in battle, and at a time when many say they support the war, those honorable and loving Americans are not putting the flags on their cars and in their windows.
 

---

Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
 
Mainly I was just showing I can dig up some "credible" types against whats happening.
Course, it'll be broken down and slanted towards the other viewpoint. These are scary times. Not due to the fact that saddamm has weapons to worry about, we still dont know that, but because of the process being used to find that out. We have struck first now. We are being seen as the agressors, a position alot of americans are not comfortable with. Im afraid we will have alot to answer for after this conflict to the international community. And say what you will, we need our alliances. We are a strong country, but the alliances we have built up are important to us. I hope they are still there after all this, and I hope we are still here. We have absolutely stirred up a hornets nest. God help us all.

 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Myra,

I don't disagree.

I'm a strong believer in "trust but verify."

My problem is with those who use such things (peace protests) to subvert and destroy from within that which we fight to keep and those unable to recognize the difference.

BTW, Einstein supported socialism.

---

Obligatory pic.....



God bless those patriotic protestors! Except for the margins, the layout isn't half bad.

[ March 23, 2003, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
 

---

Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
Glenn, respectfully asking:

With things pretty much rolling along in the exact way you have been supporting - why is there so much rage, disdain and judgment prevalent in the images you keep digging up and parading for us.

When things are going my way I get happy.

Or is it some more of that same syndrome of not really being too comfortable in our skin, which makes our citizens keep those little flags tucked away.
 

---

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I had to check out where you got several of your pics Glenn. kinda scary IMO...

quote:

---

FIGHTING THE LEFT... DOING IT RIGHT!
Welcome to ProtestWarrior.com, a website created to help arm the liberty-loving Silent Majority with ammo -- ammo that strikes at the intellectual solar plexus of the Left.

Encouraged by our successful crashing of the February 16th San Francisco anti-war protest, we decided it was time for the Left to put down their megaphones, peel off their bumper stickers, and listen to the people who believe in the core values of this country.

---

not a lot of "freedom of speech", "agree to disagree", or "live & let live" values on that site. I hope your not taking on more then just pics from those folks.


my pic..
Kenneth Watersbey, 10, holding a picture of his father, Staff Sgt. Kendall Damon Watersbey, who was killed on Thursday after a CH-46E Sea Knight helicopter crashed in the desert near the Iraqi border.
 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Myra,

Which pics are showing rage? The only "rage" I see is from the "peace" marchers.

Personally, I find the guy in the wig a hoot! And, the babe in the bikini cut jeans is...well...ask Bruce.

As for the disdain and judgement, you misunderstand. I enjoy clever demonstrations of "absurdity by being absurd". We Pro-USA'ers aren't the ones waving banners promoting collectivism and hate while demanding "peace".

Am I happy that we're at war? No. No one wants war. But, I am happy that we are finally saying what we mean and meaning what we say. To do otherwise only emboldens people like Osama and Saddam. At the same time, we are offering an opportunity to those who want the freedom we have. To some of us, its something worth fighting and dying for.

I'm quite comfortable in my "skin". I just wish my legs would tan better.

As for those who hide their flags, they're the ones with the problem. Its a symbol of the greatest and free'est nation in modern history. My grandfather died for that flag. My uncle was tortured for that flag. For all its imperfections, I'm proud of America and what it stands for and I'm not afraid to say so. If that bothers anyone, I will not apologize.
 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 

quote:

---

not a lot of "freedom of speech", "agree to disagree", or "live & let live" values on that site. I hope your not taking on more then just pics from those folks.

---

Doug,
Perhaps you should read up on some of those pics. ANSWER, the organizer of the "peace march" tried to rope them off "illegally" from the march. That is, until a report caught wind of what was happening and started asking quesions.

Protestwarriors.com is just a small but effective counter to what we see as an effort to destroy the principles this country was founded on. They are also doing it with a bit of humor.

As for the pic, I have one too. Its of my grandfather in uniform before he was killed in an ambush. My grandmother and my mother, who both lost so much, support the current action.

---

Speaking of *"freedom of speech", "agree to disagree", or "live & let live" values*, why are the peace marchers defending someone who murders anyone who is the antithesis of those values. When can we expect the peace marchers to begin their parade in downtown Baghdad?

[ March 24, 2003, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
 

---

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
glen, i got one thing that you dont have....to base my decision on how i feel...its called an HONERABLE DISCHARGE !!!!! when you have worn the uniform of a soldier and lived as a soldier then i will take all your CUT & PASTE seriously. untill then son, you need to really open your eyes. and i see the same road being takein here as the govt did back in the 60's.....only your so intelectual you can see past your own ego. iam done .....
 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Joe,

You're right. I have never worn the uniform. The military has some silly medical rules against those who have pins in their left knee.

It doesn't weaken my argument.

Ego has nothing to do with proudly standing up for something you believe in. My grandfather, great-uncle, three uncles and father - all of whom have worn the uniform - can attest to that.
 

---

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
you must got the pin in your knee when you tryed to punch a demonstrator.....good way to stay outa the war....and it DOES WEAKEN your position....with me anyway. and youre family was...CONFEDERATES?

[ March 24, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Well, if you must know, the pins were the result of a scaffold collapse while working on a billboard.

And no, there aren't many Confederates in New York.
 

---

Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
 
The pacifist and anti war wariors kept the USA out of WWII almost long enuf to let Hitler win...

The pacifists kept the US out of Korea long enuf for it to turn into a conflageration.. the killed to many of our troops

The pacifist public opinion kept the world out of Camboidia long enuf for them to have killing fields that killed millions.
The pacifists made public opinion against the viet nam policies.. ( remember when they dint want to bomb the levies) and caused the US to lose more than necessary, The comms finally went to the peace dable when they started bombing the levies


And twelve years of pacifism has cost the US attacks on the embasies, the Cole, Samalia, Yemen
 

---

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
i stand very proud to be am american, with the true convictions of a VETERAN of WAR THAT MENT NOTHING and a son of a WW 2 VETRAN father.
and iam more of a patriot then most who use the word!!!!! sorry myra....but I LOVE MY COUNTRY AND I PUT IN MY TIME. and iam not proud of this administration!!!!
 

---

Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :
 
Sad to see how a conversation can deteriate. The truth is always changing...depending upon the beliefs of the person telling. Will you ever understand that your truth is simply YOUR truth? I fear not.
 

---

Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
 
Joe Pribish,

Was it really necessary to cast dispersions on Glenn's character by inferring that he was a coward or worse?

That was a cheap shot. Being in the Armed Services may give you a different perspective but it does not give you any other rights, light, or benefits.

I knew it was only a matter of time until someone started acting very stupidly. You disappoint me, Joe. Not that my opinion means anything in the big scope of things.

I truly thought you were above that. I won't thank you for proving me wrong.
 

---

Posted by Steve Purcell (Member # 1140) on :
 
I just returned from a wonderful weekend with my Venture Crew, camping high in the Whites, at Carter Notch.

It was great to get up into the mountains, to escape the cacophony of witless drivel from armchair generals and from Bush-bashers, from the self-styled world experts and the so-called voices of reason.

Tuning back in this morning, I find that there are a still a handful of you slugging away at each other, using ad hominem arguments and vapid bumper-sticker retoric.

How unbecoming.

This is no longer a debate between war-mongers and peacenics.
This isn't even the left against the right.
This has now become Dumb vs. Dumber.

There's a war on.
Grow up.

[ March 24, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Steve Purcell ]
 

---

Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
 
Joe, I gotta agree with Bruce. No need to attack Glenn personally over this. Thats what turns a debate into something less.
Also gotta agree with Steve. Dumb vs. Dumber. That there was a good one.
 

---

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
OK....glenn just made it happen....i AS AN AMERICAN, who is a VETERAN am more PATRIOTIC then the one who spew the word so vehemently. and i dislike the inferance that if i oppose the war, dont like this administration that i and those like me are NOT AS MUCH A CITIZEN as those who are content and feel this war is just.
all the personel attacks on any one oppossing the war, and the calling of names, the HATE FOR THE FRENCH, GERMANYS RUSSIANS CHINESE, because they dont agree with what is going on.....disturbs me very much. i also detest BIGOTS....and those that are calling anti war sympathizers, communists, facists, etc etc. are what really upset me.
BIGOTS are not GOOD PEOPLE....and if your one of these with HATE FOR as you call em RAGHEADS, and other names....THIS IS BIGOTED!!!! if you fall into this mind set..then you are no better then, those who are BIGOTS against the UNITED STATES.
HATE .....is the sadest part of these world problems. if your a NAZI, WHITE SUPEMIST, then you are condemed for your HATE for other races.
now if you are a PRO WAR AMERICAN and you speak out and show your hate for RAGHEADS, TALI BAN, AL-QIDA or almost any people of that area,FRENCH, RUSSIAN GERMAN, CHINESE then you are "just one of the boys", this is the AMERICAN THING TO DO. it comes right back to the BIGOTED behavior, and the people who want this war push that aspect(hitler did the same with the dislike for the jewish)and iam begining to feel your HATE......and when a country begins to divide into US vs. THEM then the imediate govt has done the job they set out to do. as long as we AS AMERICANS stand divided with a govt that has created this divion....then that GOVT HAS DONE the worst thing it can for the people. now it comes to down those that are with us....and we can watch the rest......and iam the crazy one...huh....

[ March 24, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
 

---

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
As I walk out of my shop this morning it has become ever so obvious how much I respect and appreciate anyone who ever has fought and died for our country. I got to talk to my son this morning, my mom, my wife etc. and I am enjoying the sun from springtime. How selfish I feel at this moment. I could never begin to repay any soldier. So at the very least, the very least thing I can do is totally support them and our leaders.


Enough of the bashing and bickering, like Steve said there is a war going on ....grow up! and if you dont like the good ol USA I believe there are still flights open to leave on the hour every hour. If you need a ride to the airport let me know!

[ March 24, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
 

---

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
i LOVE THE GOOD OLD U.S OF A. not the new latest version..is where i have a problem. and ill take a plane ticket to aurba...could use a vaction....
 

---

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
One way only Joe!~

[ March 24, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
 

---

Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
I keep being called from Old Europe - way old connections from my former life as a teenager, and also from family.

They want me to come home.

I say to them: I am home.

So there is a quandary, isn't there, with me feeling alienated in a country that has turned into something unrecognizable.

I think I will send Joe a ticket if he needs it, and meet him in Aruba. If this pans out, I'll stay there with him til we no longer level countries and make the rubble, or the sand, bounce.
 

---

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
 
Have a nice trip Myra!

While you are there, just remember... if we didn't

quote:

---

level countries and make the rubble, or the sand, bounce.

---

you would still be "over there" clicking your heels and shouting "Sieg Heil!"
 

---

Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
Oh Sigh,

your zap from the hip only proves that if you have read any of what I said, ever, you understood exactly zero.
Therefore, other than expressing my sorrow for bothering to even write, I can't engage you, now can I?

Carry on, and get into a little in depth study of history and logical timelines. It can only help.

I do find you amusing, when it is not so personal.

[ March 24, 2003, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Myra Grozinger ]
 

---

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
 
Myra...just who is getting personal???

True... I tell it "like it is" and don't resort to hominims. Attacking the credibility of an opponent is a last ditch resort when losing an argument!


 

---

Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
P E A C E, Si !
(insert symbol of chickenfoot)

What we had was not an argument.

Myra

I looked up hominim and can't find anything other than it may be related to the family of man in an anthropological sense of representing all of man, as we sort of do on this board.

Other than that, maybe its related to a singular grit, as in the breakfast variety?
As in True Grit which is what it takes to stay in this discussion
 

---

Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
 
I have read these posts over the last few days, and refrained from posting, I think it a shame that we divide ourselves over politics religion and such.

This is a very emmotive time right now, and peoples feelings should be respected whichever side of the fence you come down on.

I don't think there is anybody out there that would deny that Saddam is all the terrible things that people report or say he is, but that in itself is not justification for launching a pre-emptive attack.

Nobody has proven extensive links to Al-Qaeuda,(they're opposites in beliefs and ideals) nothing major has changed in Iraq in recent times to add urgency to the last 12 years, that couldn't wait a few more months ( apart from face saving US governments massing of troops and firepower in the gulf). If the chemical threat was so great why hasn't he used them already?, with the first advances into Iraq?

Why suddenly after 12 years has it been so important to bring this to a military conclusion?

Israel is currently flouting 37 UN resolutions, but then some of the top people or advisers in the current administration are Jewish? There are promises of a solution in Palestine as a result of this conflict....but I think that is just to curry favour with other Arab nations, the Isrealis have built so much now in the occupied territories that going back would be very difficult.

Alot of these situations in the world are of our own making, the west put in a government in Iraq before Saddam, what are we going to do after this?

The shi-ites in the south, and in Iran, and Kurds in the North.

This could have been averted. We don't seem to bother much about Mugabe in Zimbabwe, or how are we going to deal with North Korea?

Saddam was not behind 9-11, but watching American propaganda you would think this was all intertwined.

Over here on the other side of the world it comes across like unfinshed family business (Bush).

I think most Europeans have a great deal of respect and thanks to the USA for the help they gave in WW2. That doesn't diminish because we cannot accept the actions of your current President.

Over here in Europe and outside of the UK, we get to see Fox, CNN, and CBS news we get the BBC ITV etc but we also get homegrown Swedish news as well as German and French, so you find yourself not automatically swallowing the endless propoganda that abounds just now.

Being a socialist or a liberal is not a bad thing or a swear word! Living in a country that has been socialist for 50 years, I have a good standard of living, good business house 3 cars, pension sickness benefits, good unemployment benefits, (80% of your income) same with 1 years maternity leave etc etc.

Over here people are very worried about how the world will be post "Bush in Iraq".

This is not limited to a few extremists, socialist workers, freaks etc this is a concern of a huge section of the worls society from all walks of life.

I really feel for the families of those that are killed in this conflict on both sides.

[ March 24, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Henry Barker ]
 

---

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
Thank you Henry!

This post was getting dumb & dumber & a voice of reason is refreshing. I would honestly have been refreshed to read a reasonable post in favor of the war too, but those are few & far between.

I was not impressed with OP's personal comments to Glenn. He says Glenn "made it happen" Personally I think "I'm sorry" would have come off better...
BUT, I do think Glenn's post of the banner reading "we support our troops...when they shoot their officers" was the beginning of the downward spiral of this thread.

allow me to quote myself:

quote:

---

...folks spout prejudiced caricatures of those who support peace, either maliciously, out of ignorance, or misplaced perceptions of patriotism, they are helping no one, while hurting their own credibility.

Here's an offering from my 2 minutes worth of searching the net

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Support the Troops: End the War and Bring Them Home

I'm getting pretty tired of hearing well-meaning but ignorant people say, "We can't protest the war--we need to support our troops!" As anyone who wasn't a right-wing fool in the 1960s knows, one of the strongest and most vocal contingents of antiwar protestors was Viet Nam veterans themselves.

---

If Glenn & Si & others have something credible to say about the war on Iraq lets hear it, but if bashing the opponents of this war is all you want to whine about, THEN GO IN THE STREET AND BASH THE ONES UPSETTING YOU!

Or if you can be reasonable about this like you are both known for being on every other topic (you too Curtis)take issue with Henry's comments, or Myra's, OP's, George, Karen, myself, John, or many many others who ARE NOT the pacifists who "...cost the US attacks on the embasies, the Cole, Samalia, Yemen", AND NOT the "...anti war warriors (who)kept the USA out of WWII almost long enuf to let Hitler win..."

We are your neighbors, and hopefully will continue to be so long after this current news has run it's course. If you want to think we wouldn't have the freedom to converse freely on the internet unless history played out exactlt like it is today, then go ahead and think that. Just don't get so defensive about it that anyone who disagree's has to be painted into being a obstacle to freedom who needs to "find a ride to the airport"
 

---

Posted by Karen Stein (Member # 241) on :
 
Thank you Doug, well said.
 

---

Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
 
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

When the wicked
Carried us away in captivity
Required from us a song
Now how shall we sing the lord's song in a strange land

When the wicked
Carried us away in captivity
Requiering of us a song
Now how shall we sing the lord's song in a strange land

Let the words of our mouth and the meditations of our heart
be acceptable in thy sight here tonight

Let the words of our mouth and the meditation of our hearts
be acceptable in thy sight here tonight

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

By the rivers of Babylon (dark tears of Babylon)
there we sat down (You got to sing a song)
ye-eah we wept, (Sing a song of love)
when we remember Zion. (Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah)

By the rivers of Babylon (Rough bits of Babylon)
there we sat down (You hear the people cry)
ye-eah we wept, (They need their God)
when we remember Zion. (Ooh, have the power)

© 1978 by Far-Musikverlag GmbH. / Blue Mountain Music Ltd.
 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Something credible to say about the war....Hmmmmm.....



 

---

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
You know what I am going to exercise my freedom and never click on this thread again. I dont like whats going on here, I am losing respect for those who I have respect for in concern to signs.

So before it goes beyond recognition, buh byee!~

See ya in a sign discussion...........or NOT!
 

---

Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
 
uhhhhhhh

wonder why we got problems? go read this book, you will be shocked

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895261405/qid=1048522141/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-6365658-0572735
 

---

Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
Know what really gets on my nerves?

I've expressed my views on using this BB to promote political and religious views many times. On several occasions, I have talked on the phone, or in person about our feelings on this matter, as well as the rational behind them. Looks like our conversations mean didily squat.

I'm sure you all have your own house rules. Do your friends respect these rules or ignore your wishes and do whatever they want. Would someone who professes to be a friend actually do something like this? Sure makes me ask a few questions.

I'm seeing links, as well as cut and paste comments, to and from all sorts of political forums. I repectfully ask that those of you putting in these links and/or cutting and pasting other's comments from unrelated sites. If you enjoy this type of debate, why not go to those forums instead of dragging them to Letterville?

Myra asked a simple question here. Can we not put aside these same old political comments, most by the same old political personalities, and talk about something we can agree on?
 

---

Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :
 
for a thread that
started about patriotic
signs it sure got off topic.
 

---

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
 
Boy, talk about temptation to take dead aim and fire. I have more than a few extremely unpleasant things I could say to one or two of you - nah, actually, just one of you. ONLY my respect for the ground rules of this forum prevents me from doing so.

What becomes apparent is that "this" war started long before the first shots were fired, and will continue long after it ends.

Having sworn off TV, this forum is one place I go for entertainment. I also pay for that priveledge, unlike some who use OTHER people's generosity to provide them with a forum in which they insult their neighbors and run off at the fingers.

Oh, enough already.
 

---

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
thank you henry for a "world" view. iam looking from the same place. this is why i FEEL the way i do. i cant say iam sorry doug, because it would make no differance. and your right about the pics of A FEW stupids...and this why i cant say iam sorry ......cut & paste is just that.
nobody wants to address the HATE & BIGOTRY....oh no we cant go there...but it shows in their posts...these are the people who still are "closet racists", who never say the N word except in their closed conversations with their like minded associates. so its not hard to generate or tranfer the HATE and BIGOTRY toward any other sector be it IDEAOLOGY,POLITICAL PARTY, NATIONALITY, ANTI-WAR OR RELIGION...yes i said the R word....most are good god fearing people.
the ones who take religion as ive said before "GOD BLESS AMERICA" is not my idea of UNBIASED and FREE OF RACISIUM AND BIGOTRY. for those who dont know the meaning of the word...BIGOT: a person intolerant of creeds, opinions, etc other than his own. oh yea thats "old paint".....huh....then if iam a bigot, how do you see yourself? iam the one puttin it out here, for the reading, before i get my ticket punched!!!!
 

---

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I was arrested once when standing among 100's of other Led Zeppelin fans about 9 hours into an overnight lineup for concert tickets. At sunrise the single file line of diehard fans leaning against the wall or sitting on coolers, with blankets etc. was rushed by other 100's from the line that wrapped clear around the Chicago Stadium, & in an instant the line turned into a 20 person wide shoulder to shoulder crush of people so tight you could lift you feet & still keep your head up from the crush. The police who watched from horseback moved barricades into the lines edge, but did nothing to facilitate any crowd control. (This was prior to the loss of life at a Who concert years later)

OK, as for relevance... people started chanting fu*k the police. Being swept into the mob mentality I joined into what I knew was "wrong" (or at least anti-social, & unacceptable) behavior. I ended up being one of the relatively few who ended up in a paddy wagon, & after posting bail following an imposed waiting period, arrived back at the ticket line some 6 hours behind where I otherwise would have been.

So, Steve, please accept my apologies. I guess I didn't learn my lesson from that experience as well as I may have thought.

Although at risk of watering down my sincere apology (though I hope I don't) when these discussions are allowed to continue long past when you most likely would have first been aware of them, it can appear to be considered as another acceptable exception to your policy. I do not feel that any of my comments are of a personal attack nature, but I may be blind to a more objective perspective. Steve, I most definently see how this thread has detoured into just the type of divisions of otherwise friendly neighbors that you warned us of based on your experience with the history of this site. I also see that intelligent replies like Henry's still crop up. Given the chance, my optimism would want to believe that individuals who may have offended each other would clear up their differences within the same thread (though I'm not even sure if the thread is still open as I type this)

Glenn, Si, & Curtis if I offended any of you, or came off as posting personal attacks, then accept my apologies. That was not my intent. Though I chose to take issue with the manner of stating your opinions, in many ways the full gamut of my beliefs include many aligned with some of each of your comments.
 

---

Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
Just spent more than an hour driving around my town, in the heart of Bush country, "that's for sure".

As I did, I was fooling myself that I was not running errands and picking up supplies, but clearing my head. Because, I'm sure it shows, I am affected by feeling so strongly about what is going on.

Most of what I thought about was how to formulate an apology when I got back, an apology to Si for losing my temper. I think that's the only place where I owe one. But I will be happy to make it more universal than that, because I am genuinely and thoroughly sorry for showing that I have a temper to lose. I also regret my attempts at sarcasm that weren't even very funny ( see the strain I'm under....)

Just because I labor to make my points, and to address what I think may be genuine points of difference does not mean I have to fly off the handle when it becomes obvious that it does not make a difference.

I must not be making these points well enough yet, so I'll just have to keep on trying

As for the original question I posed, which was something I was actually curious about when it came to the rest of this country, I looked at every car I could without causing a wreck- both directions - on my long drive with 6 stops in different parts of town.
I saw 2 cars with the handkerchief size flag actually fixed in a window. And I counted 12 flag decals of the wavy standard 9/11 5x8 variety. I saw 4 houses in the burbs that had a flag flying, and that does not count my own on a 20 foot pole. I still have not had one call for anything resembling anything to indicate pride in this war of ours.
 

---

Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
 
To speak ad hominem means to try to rally people toward your point in an argument by making a direct appeal or attempting to make a direct appeal towards your target audience's feelings and emotions in order to turn them to your point instead of using logic and facts...also means that when faced with losing an argument you attack your opponents character rather than focus on the argument at hand. You guys are forgetting that joe n si talk alot and that hominim=hominem in pribishese
 

---

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
If Joe & Si talk a lot, there is hope for all of us to agree to disagree.
 

---

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
 
Lol Doug...I talk to OldPaint so much on Chat, that it is affecting my spelling and vebage. (Hope that I don't wind up as a tofu muncher, also!)


 

---

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Folk,

I know I'm repeating myself here, but I think its bears worth repeating.

I realize I'm opinionated. I realize that sometimes, due to my lack of skill with words, I come across as some hardass. But that's just me and I'm not about to change for someone who might be thin-skinned or overly sensitive.

So, for Pete's Sake....Relax.

I love Myra. She is one of my favorite people on God's green earth. We are nearly polar opposites on many issues and I find it refreshing.

---

Doug & John are some of the few here that make reasonable opposing arguements. I like the fact that they can keep me on my toes. I have a lot of respect for them.

---

Joe,

For what its worth, I have never accused you of anything. I challenge you to point out where I have. If you want to think I'm some confederate member of some bigotted organization hellbent on world domination and the oppression of the masses because I'm a conservate that believes in self-reliance and that government social programs destroy more than help, that's fine. I know who I am. I am nothing like what you've implied. I also know you are nothing like you imply that I've said. You've served (willingly or drafted). I haven't. I'll never know what you've been through. That still doesn't mean that I can't study history and current events and come up with my own opinions and be able to support them with facts. Like you say, "beware the truth; you may not like what you find."

No hard feelings here. Never have been. Never will be.

---

And for anyone else who is still reading this meandering missive , I offer this little tidbit....

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." --Plato

---

And for my final patriotic sign.... (grin)....



Good layout and legible.
 

---

Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
 
I have a series of tapes called "introductory logic", by R.C. Sproul, Ligonier Ministries. I'm trying to commit the material to memory, but alas, I do have my limitations. He says, ad hominem reasoning comes in two forms. The term is latin for "to the man". In one form, ad hominem abusive, you leave the subject at hand, then go "to the man", calling him (or her) names. The other form is called (I'll spell it in a phonic way) reduxio absurdum. It's where you go "to the man", pick up his argument, and run it to it's absurd conclusion. The first one is considered a fallacy, the second isn't, and can be very effective. I've got some words of caution about this war, but I don't know how much good it would do, I don't want to run Myna's post OT that way, and I've already been reprimanded about rules. "Hey, look at the newbie on thin ice". Jim.
 

---

Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
Glenn ( Mary Matalin ) Taylor

Look at who is at a loss with words. Not YOU!!
(I have by now stolen all of your wonderful smileys, including the one you reserved for me, which is special)

I'll settle for being called refreshing, if I can't get no respect;
(it's a start)

Was that really your last post of a patriotic sign?
(or is it like me, posting on this board for the last time three days ago)

And as for you and Joe.... don't worry, I'll lure him away to Aruba if it's the last thing I do. He obviously has vocabulary skills to pass on to me,
(see Si's use of the fancy Pribish word)
and I know I can teach him how to spell.

All you have to watch out for is our return.
We'll be unbeatable.

love to you, too

Myra (James Carville) Grozinger



[ March 24, 2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Myra Grozinger ]
 

---

Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
 
Although there have been times I have been offended by a remark made about something I believe in, I forgot about it and hold no ill will, mainly because I know most about everyone on this board or feel like I do. These are surely tough times and probably will get tougher, so emotions on both sides will run high. Steve is letting us know that this post too, has run its course, as well he should. I support our troops with all my heart and prayers and hope that this is all done and gone before long.
Joe ol buddy, I hear ya, and understand what you are saying. You have alot of valid viewpoints and I for one will defend your right to say what you please, but I think at another place another time as Jerry Lee Lewis would say...getting personal just makes the point be lost.
This is a great watering hole for craftsmen of all types in the sign industry. Lets keep it that way. Ill surely bet this is tame compared to what happens on some political boards.

[ March 24, 2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
 

---

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
 


a public service announcement by the flying biscuit sign company, montgomery, alabama, mazeppa, minnesota

[ March 24, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
 

---

Posted by george williams (Member # 516) on :
 
you know, i've been observing this board and am a member and i've never had the inclination to post on any topic...these recent posts concerning
the situation the u.s. has gotten itself into does provoke me enough to at least put in my 2 cents worth...it can't be much more misguided than some that already exist...i am a vietnam combat veteran (I corps...68-69) have been pretty quiet over the last 30 years but proud that i did what i felt was my obligation for my country and help enable us to keep the freedoms which we are exercising now...i am not one of those that say send me over and i'll finish it...been there done that (never finished)...i do not agree with the situation we are in BUT
our president is the comander and chief and in that position i have to support him...i know not very many of you are vets...i respect that and applaud your gumption to state your positions..i do find the "find a peaceful solution" folks may actually be latent hawks because they seem to be a little more verbally combative and certaily easily riled up....whether you agree or not, let me make you painfully aware of one thing...while you are having peace demonstrations, anti-war rallies or just plain bitch about the situation, remember if you're 10,000 miles from home.up to you ass in sand or swamp water all you know is it's real lonely when you think no one supports you...put yourself in those shoes and don't tell me that's what your trying to do (bring the boys home) because simply put IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN..till the politicians, big corps, political activist and funeral directors have made their nickle.....thanks for the soapbox, quit this silly assed debate and put the same effort in supporting the people who are really being "inconvenienced" by this situaion- THE TROOPS....i've said too much
 

---

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
OK I LOVE ALL OF YA....iam the only one here that has said that!!!!!.and if you cant see that then your all blind. iam gona go cry in in the corner and mumble "pribishese". if i said anything to hurt anyone i apoligize. and to those who drink bartles and james..."thank you for your support".
 

---

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
 
old paint, don't freak out!
it's okay.

just stay positive.

[ March 25, 2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
 

---

Posted by Kathy Joiner (Member # 1814) on :
 
Mark, you spelt that wrong! sposed ta be "SPORT R TROOPZ"
 

---

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
 
good one kathy, i can tell you R from the south!!!

hahahahahaha

go girl!!!

mark
 

---

Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
 
Y'all take a break.....have a cookie!

A:)
 

---

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
 
Call me a hardass if you will, but asking for forgiveness without offering an apology is just another way of evading responsibility.
 

---

UBB.classic™ 6.7.2