Tired of stupid liberal soundbytes, whining and tantrums about the impending war against Iraq? Here are some snappy answers that may come in handy. Use them often.
The United States is taking unilateral action against Iraq! So far it's a 90-member worldwide "unilateral" coalition.
Why is Bush in a rush to war? An 12 year rush?
Tough inspections can disarm Saddam Hussein without invading Iraq. 12 years of inspections have done nothing so far. Clinton had eight years to disarm Hussein.
We should let the inspectors finish their job. We did. They didn't. However, we will.
Why fight? The Iraqi military is weaker than in 1991. But their biological weapons and chemical weapons are much more dangerous.
There's no proof of weapons. We know they have 'em, we know they hide 'em, and we have tape recordings and photographs. What more would you like? An Iraqi rocket in Martin Sheen's shorts?
If we invade, Saddam Hussein might use those weapons of mass destruction against us. I thought Iraq didn't have these weapons?
But terrorists might attack if we invade Iraq. Oh, so if we don't attack Iraq, terrorists will never strike us again? That's like bringing a flounder to a football game. It makes no sense.
We shouldn't go to war without a UN resolution. ANOTHER resolution? What about the last 16 resolutions? Shall we use them to wallpaper our bathrooms, or shall we use the same resolutions Bill Clinton used in Bosnia?
We don't have a real declaration for war. Yes, we actually do. It's called "Joint Congressional Resolution #114."
We are giving 20 billion to Turkey. We could use that money at home. OK, we'll use that money to strengthen our Iraqi border with Wyoming.
If North Korea has nuclear weapons, why aren't we invading them first? Uh, hello, isn't that the point? Would you rather make an example out of a country that does not have nuclear weapons or one that does?
European leaders are against the war. The Reichstag wasn't attacked on 9/11. The Grande Place wasn't attacked. The Kremlin wasn't attacked and the Jerry Lewis Lifetime Achievement Museum in Paris wasn't attacked. America was attacked. And besides, except for the tantrums of France, Belgium, Russia and Germany, only four European nations aren't willing to defend freedom. The entire rest of Europe is with America.
The French don't support the war. Oh, did they surrender already?
Germany objects to this war. Germany objected to Reagan's "attitude" towards the Soviet Union. They also objected to our presence in 1943 as well. Maybe they should learn something from their own sordid history.
Belgians are against the war. I can live without Waffles and ice cream.
USSR doesn't support the war. They are still angry over Reagan's brilliant Cold War victory.
Polls show Europeans are against this war. Polls show Europeans believe their freedom was achieved by endlessly debating in marvelous dining halls, conveniently forgetting their right to be pompous blowhards was achieved with American blood, not over rated wine and brie.
We should build a coalition with our friends. With friends like these, who needs enemies?
What happens if we can't build a United Nations coalition? Who cares? The U.N. not only has little credibility left, it barely has any legitimate reason to exist.
But the UN is the world's most respected governing body. Not as respected as the US military. The Japanese respected us after we beat their asses in WWII.
America has always waited until enemies attacked. Now that oceans can't hold back enemies, preemptive war is forever a necessity. And if you believe Saddam has no ties to terrorism I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
War will cost billions! And how much is YOUR freedom, your family and your city worth?
President Bush says he's willing to violating the 1976 executive order forbidding assassinations of foreign leaders. As soon as the ink is dry on rescinding that idiotic order, will someone please pull the trigger? The line forms to the right
Many Senators don't support Bush Are you speaking of the Senators from Bordeaux? Even the duplicitous Hillary Clinton has jumped on board because it suits her career goals.
Tom Daschle says George Bush has a "credibility gap" When was the last time we came to Tom Daschle for the truth? And Tom Daschle's credibility gap from political maneuvering? Are you willing to put politics over freedom?
These problems didn't happen under Clinton. Actually, they happened but Clinton ignored them. Now, Bush will clean up the mess he left.
But Clinton didn't start a war. Unless his girlfriend was testifying before congress …
Bush 1st should have taken out Hussein in '91. That 1991 UN resolution forbade a march on Baghdad. Remember?
Millions of peace activists are demanding we stop the war. Millions of Iraqi's are begging for us to start the war. They want the same liberty as those protesters.
Thousands of innocents will be killed or injured. That's a lot less than Hussein is killing right now. Of course, there's only one man that needs to be killed …
Young Americans will die in battle. Would you prefer they die in skyscrapers?
Protesters have genuine objections to war Just like they did in Somalia? Bosnia? What happened to their whining when Clinton sent our troops to those countries? If you don't like conservatives just say so, don't hide behind false arguments.
People are coming from all over the world to act as "human shields". Actually, they've turned tail and run now that they've seen Sadam's intentions to assign them around power plants, oil fields, military sites, etc.
This is about American Imperialism So which country do we own? What nation sends us their tax dollars? If America was imperialist, we'd already own the entire world. Who could stand in our way?
This is blood for oil. The only blood is the Iraqi people tortured, starved and killed while Hussein builds massive palaces to hide nuclear weapons, all financed with Iraqi oil. If we really wanted Iraqi oil why didn't we just take it in 1991?
This is a racist war. America happily endorses a multicultural approach toward anyone who dares to take away our freedom. Regardless of race, color or creed, we hunt them down and kill them. We think that's fair.
A U.S.-led invasion of Iraq is a great recruiting tool for terrorists. Have fun recruiting people into oppressive misery as they enjoy their first taste of freedom. Only the deranged and fanatics will attend.
An attack on Iraq could seriously undermine and destabilize Arab nations. Destabilize the region? The sooner these oppressive 14th century dictatorial terrorist sponsoring regimes fall the better.
Are we prepared for a multibillion dollar occupation? Were we prepared to liberate Europe and Japan in 1945? South Korea in 1953? Grenada? El Salvador? Kuwait? The Eastern Bloc? Afghanistan? Nations always love America when we rescue them from tyranny. The price of freedom is never free.
Polls show Americans are more concerned about the threat from al Qaeda than from Iraq. It's not a war against Al Qaeda. It's not a war against Iraq. It's a war against terrorism. Anywhere we find it. One nation at a time.
American opinion is against the war. No, it's not. A majority of Americans want to fight now, not later.
According to a recent poll. You know what? Screw those polls. We're in a war against terrorism. If you don't want to fight the bastards, get the hell out of the way. Go visit Paris, Antwerp, Berlin or Moscow. You can stay there forever. But this time, don't call us when the heathens are at the gates.
Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
Si,
did anyone tell you lately that you make a hell of a lot of sense? you do.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
The time for diplomacy has come & gone. For myself & others who have had comments in the past about weather or not to use force yet, that is a non issue now. Even the house (or congress?, I forget)voted unanimously to come together in support of our troops.
The relevant attitude at this point is "United we stand!" (As shown so eloquently in the image posted by Shep)
So, why all the divisive responses to questions no one here is asking?
Posted by aaronssigns (Member # 490) on :
right on si! you said it!
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Hi Si..
Remember Me! (The SoapBox Canadian?)
All you have said is true to your own beliefs.
As a Nation of 300 million people you have the right to voice your opinion,as I do within the Great Canadian Nation of 30 million. So as your Leader "Barks" the order to do something around the world...Everyone should JUMP!
Sorry Si.. but there is still (6 BILLION PEOPLE) left to voice thiers. So if a free vote is in order, to say YA! or NAY! What happened?
[ March 20, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Uhhhh Steve.
Our president is not barking like a dog ,,,, he has called our nation to unite. He did not bark and have me JUMP. He is responding to a threat . Also, I called him first via a email just as so many others the day after 4 of our flight crews were assasinated and our cities were invaded and our government was attacked in an assasination attempt via an enemy who came in thru your country. So many canadians I have the pleasure to know told me they are really upset this happened thru their back yard.
Just for the records...
Iraq is not supposed to be possessing SCUD missles according to thier agreements. Guess what. They fired two so far.
Hans Blik said this is and much other evidence is proof they are not in compliance.. He also said that they were not allowed to inspect the basement ares of certain buildings. He said this is where the illegal stuff is being hidden.
Why didn't he look ther in the first place? he said they wanted to eliminate all the easy places first.
Well now. Looks like peace had a chance. And Iraq blew it..
[ March 20, 2003, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Curtis hammond ]
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
"Free vote", Stephen? Ha ha, you silly boy. We have a few sayings; "It can't happen here." "Not on our soil" and "Tell it to the marines."
I've been having "Shock & Awe" since the last election.
[ March 20, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Mike Languein ]
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
I bow down!
ENJOY YOUR Oil product PRICES! from this point on. Home,Car,Commercial. Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Actually, oil prices have started dropping - 9.5% on Tuesday alone.
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Hey, this site is suppose to be about signs.
Lets do a workshop and see what we can do to rework this Nascar fan's sign to make it better....
Now, right off the bat, the biggest problem I see with it is the margins. They're just too crowded.
Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
Myra? Myra, where art thou?? Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
quote: So, why all the divisive responses to questions no one here is asking?
I agree with Doug here Si. Why are you posting something to just start up a thread that will divide people on here when now more than ever that shouldn't be. Why offend people when there is no need. There's no place on this board for posts like this Si.
Posted by FranCisco Vargas (Member # 145) on :
I totally agree with what you say Si. Somehow I think the post might not last, but then again if everyone keeps their cool and shows somehow it's sign related like I saw pictures so far, you will have a "collectors item post" Hope you don't mind I did a copy and paste of the words just in case. That was HEAVY! RIGHT ON BRO! Teddy would have done the same!
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
Why David: I did not know you cared! Now that some "butt" is being kicked in Iraq, no need to offer mine as well.
Also: In raising my children, and in living in general I have learned that when really juvenile and inappropriate and offensive things are being said, to stay quiet is also a valid response. If everyone gets lucky it challenges the speaker to examine his "product" as it simply hangs out there in the air.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote: In raising my children, and in living in general I have learned that when really juvenile and inappropriate and offensive things are being said, to stay quiet is also a valid response. If everyone gets lucky it challenges the speaker to examine his "product" as it simply hangs out there in the air.
Well said, Myra.
(sorry, I couldn't resist )
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
For all the people that got upset by my post.....it is not to start an argument....it is to answer your questions!
Somehow all the treehuggers, bunnylovers and pacifics seem to think that their emotional viewpoint is the only valid one! There are other views and beliefs! They only protest and critice, but never offer a solution...except that we are to blamed for everything!
just my point of view!
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
Glenn, one thing you are not considering, my friend, is this: (so let's have a little tete-a-tete): It is a well known fact of psychology, that oftentimes people who are ignored and put down by those in power (such as wives of abusive and oppressive husbands) rise to bizarre and exaggerated behavior in order to either affect change or to get heard, and then they are called the crazy ones. Nothing new here.
[ March 20, 2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Myra Grozinger ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
So, were these protestors abused as children or are they just having a tempertantrum for not getting their way?
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
wow myra, are u bein' abused?
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Myra.....while it is nothing personal,if you really wanted to present your opinion objectionally like you claim,you would stop posting with the underlying tone that you and others who share you viewpoint are the only ones capable of understanding the subject at hand,having feelings or emotions about it and thinking it thru, and anyone who differs form your view is automatically one notch lower than you and automatically a horrible person. FOr those who claim to be/want to be percieved as the most understanding and open minded,you present the most close minded point of view.....any opinion that differs from yours is immediately dismissed as horrid,awful,vile,disgusting blah blah blah with pretty extreme prejudice and negativity...and lord forbid anyone speaks out against that,why they do it b/c they just can't think is what they're told...then we wonder why divisiveness starts??
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Just heard on tv of 16 US Marines and British soldiers that were killed in a helicopter crash. God Bless them and their families. This war has already cost us too much.
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
I think I just got my butt kicked, after all. I need to go think now.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
No one is getting their butt kicked, Myra.
Everyone is just letting off some steam expressing an opinion. I just hope all of us don't let it become personal or make it personal. You are still my favorite liberal with a true heart of gold. Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
quote:any opinion that differs from yours is immediately dismissed as horrid,awful,vile,disgusting blah blah blah with pretty extreme prejudice and negativity...and lord forbid anyone speaks out against that,why they do it b/c they just can't think is what they're told...
Although Myra and I think quite a bit alike, I cant put it into words as eloquently as she. I really cant see where she comes across that way as described by Gavin. Myras guilty of one thing, thinking liberal among a highly conservative board. Just my opinion, y'know.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
That's OK John...you are forgiven.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
You are too Si. Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
quote: Now that some "butt" is being kicked in Iraq, no need to offer mine as well.
Hey Myra it is good to see that you are still keeping a sense of humour. I hope you noticed that I did use the little "wink" icon. I think you are a good debater and you sure as well would be capable of kicking my ass any time in a real debate (even though I would be right!! )
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
John,it's nothing personal...and i'm not singling myra out or trying to argue with you,but i guess maybe we read diff boards at times? I would go back and read mosts posts on topics like these,anything other than the moderate to liberal viewpoint gets attacked and then we ramble about the horror and insensitivity of what so n so said etc. If I was gonna make a personal attack i guess i could've but i didn't. Heres an unrelated question...you by any chance do t-shirt artwork for the WPO Bench Bash for cash Meet in new orleans in oct? looks like your style email me and i'll scan the shirt if i can
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
"Somehow all the treehuggers, bunnylovers and pacifics seem to think that their emotional viewpoint is the only valid one! There are other views and beliefs! They only protest and critice, but never offer a solution...except that we are to blamed for everything!" Just because a person is not in favour of this war does not make them treehuggers, bunnylovers or pacifists. I find that the posts of these so called pacifists are far less inflamitory or personally directed than those of the people who are posting the pro war posts. I personally find Myra's posts to be extremely articulate and intelligent. Please reread the thread and see whom is attacking whom. I respect everyones rights to have their own opinion. Please do not start personally attacking someone because they have the gall to think different from you. Respectfully, Kelly Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Did you know that 90% of canandians live within 100 miles of the US border? You guys get any closer and we'll move the line..... Posted by David O'Hanlon (Member # 2754) on :
Nobody loves a Soldier until the enemy is at the gate.
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
A Speech by Alabama State Auditor Beth Chapman. "I’m here tonight because men and women of the United States military have given their lives for my freedom. I am not here tonight because Sheryl Crowe, Rosie O'Donnell, Jane Fonda, Martin Sheen, the Dixie Chicks, Barbra Streisand, the Beastie Boys, George Clooney or Phil Donahue, sacrificed their lives for me.
If my memory serves me correctly, it was not movie stars or musicians, but the United States Military who fought on the shores of Iwo Jima the jungles of Vietnam , and the beaches of Normandy .
Tonight, I say we should support the President of the United States and the U.S. military and tell the liberal, tree-hugging, hippy, Birkenstock wearing, tie-dyed liberals to go make their movies and music and whine somewhere else.
After all, if they lived in Iraq , they wouldn't be allowed the freedom of speech they’re being given here today -- ironically, they would be put to death at the hands of Saddam Husssein or Osama Bin Laden.
I want to know how the very people who are against war because of the loss of life, can possibly be the same people who are for abortion?
They are the same people who are for animal rights but against the rights of the unborn.
The movie stars say they want to go to Iraq and serve as human shields for the Iraqis, I say let them buy a one-way ticket and go.
No one likes war, I hate war. But the one thing I hate more is the fact that this country has been forced into war -- innocent people have lost their lives -- and there but for the grace of God, it could have been my brother, my husband, or even worse my own son.
On December 7, 1941 , there are no records of movie stars treading the blazing waters of Pearl Harbor .
On September 11, 2001 ; there are no photos of movie stars standing as human shields against the debris and falling bodies ascending from the World Trade Center . There were only policemen and firemen -- underpaid civil servants who gave their all with nothing expected in return.
When the USS Cole was bombed, there were no movie stars guarding the ship -- where were the human shields then?
If America’s movie stars want to be human shields, let them shield the gang-ridden streets of Los Angeles, or New York City, let them shield the lives of the children of North Birmingham whose mothers lay them down to sleep on the floor each night to shelter them from stray bullets.
If they want to be human shields, I say let them shield the men and women of honesty and integrity who epitomize courage and embody the spirit of freedom by wearing the proud uniforms of the United States Military. Those are the people who have earned and deserve shielding.
Throughout the course of history, this country has remained free, not because of movie stars and liberal activists but because of brave men and women who hated war too -- but lay down their lives so that we all may live in freedom. After all -- "What greater love hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friend," but in this case a country.
We should give our military honor and acknowledgement and not let their lives be in vain. If you want to see true human shields, walk through Arlington Cemetery . There lies human shields, heroes, and the BRAVE Americans who didn’t get on television and talk about being a human shields, they were human shields.
I thank God tonight for freedom -- those who bought and paid for it with their lives in the past -- those who will protect it in the present and defend it in the future.
America has remained silent too long. God-fearing people have remained silent too long.
We must lift our voices united in a humble prayer to God for guidance and the strength and courage to sustain us throughout whatever the future may hold.
After the tragic events of Sept. 11th, my then eleven-year-old son said terrorism is a war against us and them and if you're not one of us, then you're one of them.
So in closing tonight, let us be of one accord, let us stand proud, and let us be the human shields of prayer, encouragement and support for the President, our troops and their families and our country.
May God bless America , the land of the free, the home of the brave and the greatest country on the face of this earth!"
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
I suppose we should have minded our own business when Hitler did what ever he thought was right with his own country too....after all, it wasn't any of our business either.....
I don't understand what all the protesting is all about.....WHAT IS it you are protesting?
Are you protesting freedom for oppressed people?
Are you protesting the removal of an evil dictator who tortures and rapes his own people?
I thought liberals were all for human rights and liberation...
And still, not one of you will offer a realistic solution to what we are to do about Saddam Hussein....or are you suggesting we turn our heads, walk away and hope for peace...get real
A
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
OK....this 1st piece on this post is load of crap!...if you belive everything that is said in it, you been drinking to many green beers. i can post things like that that is more truthful. the pope says this war is not right, 1000, and thousands across the nation and around the world say its not right. and all you good "sheeple" belive in this crap. and listen to you..all head up..lets kick ass, yea we gona get that s.o.b. its pay back time. well so far 16 american soldiers have died....not by enemy guns. but hell we gota lose a few to protect the many....yea..up untill 2 days ago nobody was dead, and sadamn wasnt comin down main st here. oh well we better get him before he gets us... the boogie man will get you if your not careful too!!!! i feel for all those have died....and will die for something that didnt have to happen. if this makes the world a better place, i will say i was wrong, but thru all the history of wars good and bad ones....A LOT OF PEOPLE DIED so those that were in power could LIVE ON!!!! and that is the point of my distane for this INVASION.
[ March 21, 2003, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
I rest my case.
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
I agree with most of what Si posted. He's no Red Neck, gun nut, nazi ... just a loveable old arab who lovs life and his country. I got to know him pretty well recently
Of the things he listed ... one strikes me to the heart ... how come if the Iraqs said the didn't have missiles, they using them now? They said they didn't have any chemical warheads left too ... god help our troops when they get to outside Baghdad:(
Got an 18 y/o son in the Special Forces Airborne doing Chem Warefare training in the Ozzie desert right now!!!!!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
this pro war chest thumping comes off like a bunch of adolescent tension whipped into a frenzy because your heroes are out gun-slinging & your butts are sat at the computer looking for an enemy to blast your self-rightous mouth off to, to somehow make yourself part of the home team, the few, the proud.
There is no pride in a pre-emptive strike against un-named "protestors" and un-voiced "questions about Iraq"
Gross generalizations are being made against those who may have voiced any opinions in opposition to, not necessarrily any or all use of force, but either the timing, or the sequence, or the justification of said use of force.
Sure there are some real dumbass protestors out there getting there picture in the paper. Don't for a minute think there are not an equal number of pro-war goons with murderous rage unleashed on the bandwagon of war with complete clueless & uneducated predjudice as their only motivating force.
I have been "reluctlantly convinced" (to borrow Cams words) in the last weeks that agressive disarmament would probably be necessary. I don't try to second guess our government on every aspect of determining timing, sequence, or justification for use of force. I second guess myself, to examine my perceptions, the level of understanding I have actively sought to aquire, & the evolution of how that perception & understanding help me come to grips with an opinion I can put my soul behind, & not just my mouth.
Like Kelly said, opposition to war does not make one a tree-hugger or a pacifist.
Opposition to anti-war protestors does not make one a patriot. It does not make one brave, or honorable, or just. It most definintly does mean you would have fought valiently & triumphant while the "protestors" would have somehow failed to rise to the challenge.
Chest-thumping war hawks are about as impressive as Mike Tyson, while the tempered & introspective restraint behind opposing views may conceal the wisdom & balance of a samauri warrior.
Si, your original post didn't comeout & say "hey all you dips#it anti-war losers in letterville this is for you!" So I really didn't take it as being directed at anyone here. I only took it for what it is, a divisive, inflammatory, & intentionally confrontational rant that has absolutely no business being posted here. It seemed to be simply a normal reaction to your being tired of a bunch of liberal hogwash. (Which I can assure you, there are those who would still hold out hope for a peacful solution who are also tired of liberal hogwash)
But Si, you then came up with this comment:
quote: For all the people that got upset by my post.....it is not to start an argument....it is to answer your questions!
Somehow all the treehuggers, bunnylovers and pacifics seem to think that their emotional viewpoint is the only valid one! There are other views and beliefs! They only protest and critice, but never offer a solution...except that we are to blamed for everything!
Now you are "calling out" your neighbors here in Letterville. You are not answering letterville questions, your are making them up to make your point. That is fine but admit it, don't pin it on some anonymous "protestors" who "asked" questions. Sure, you are drawing from reality, but the extremist idiocy of the questions you raised do not represent any views I have read here in letterville. I read every post in the 200+ comments on this topic last month.
You claim that "They only protest and critice, but never offer a solution...except that we are to blamed for everything!" Either you did not read that thread, you didn't remember it, or it served the making of your point to disregard facts & go for sensationalism instead of honesty.
I am a proud American supporting my country & our soldiers. Why, when, & weather to put them in harms way is not an easy decision & I don't envy the responsibility of those who must make those decisions. As nobel & dedicated as our soldiers are, I would doubt they want that decision to be made with arrogance or anger. Now that it has been made, the arm-chair-Generals out there can rant on with rightous indignation at any who ever questioned this war, but IMHO, it may have been those who questioned the war that truely had the best interests of our troops in mind.
Everyone has a right to their opinion, but more then any other political thread I've seen here, this one really started out completely out of bounds. Si may have gotten a bunch of atta-boys out of it, but it is sad to see how camparatively little response was given to Aaron Haynes patriotic post It has ten times the merit of this thread for those that want to show their support of out military in these troubled times.
In this excerpt of the anonymous quote Aaron posted here are words that ring of truepatriotism to me.
quote:He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to 'square-away' those around him who haven't bothered to stand, remove their hat, or even stop talking.
In an odd twist, day in and day out, far from home, he defends their right to
be disrespectful.
Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Great-grandfather, he is paying the price for our freedom. Beardless or not, he is not a boy. He is the American Fighting Man that has kept this country free for over 200 years. He has asked nothing in return, except our friendship, support and understanding.
...so give them your support. Bashing your neighbors is not really so high on the list of what would show that support.
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
Doug! Feel safe in Hawaii? Don't think yer going to get another Pearl Harbour!
Just a car bomb or two outside one yer busiest Tourist Bars downtown ... like in Bali Last year! Lost lot of innocent Ozzie Tourists in that "act of war" against us. Couple from my home town! Kill ratio was 50 times what America suffered Sept 11 when you considered population!
This is why Australia has a commited thousands elite troops, airforce and navy to the conflict. My own son is shortly to become one of them .
Hopefully the whole exercise will be over quickly with minimum loses both sides. Got a feeling it will .. pray it does anyway.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Curtis, Did I hear you Correct? Did you say that the Guys who attacted the Pentagon and the world trade Centre came through Canada? If that's what you're saying, I believe you are wrong. Also I'm not saying that that I don't support you in this war either, it's just that all those attacks, I believe came through you're borders, after they were trained in your country to fly planes. It's just too bad their was'nt a better way, I just heard on the News about the First American Soldier Killed in Battle, lets think about him and his family, and hope and pray that there won't be too many more, On both sides.
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
All I have to say to all of this is the two quotes from Bush that will always stick in my mind. It set the image I have of him. #1. When he put his hat in the ring to run for president, he was asked what his inspiration was to run for the highest office in the land. He put on the "smirk" and looked at the interviewer and said, "they asked me". Would like to know who "they" are. #2. Also being interviewed on TV, was asked about a year ago, why Iraq? Answer. "they tried to kill my dad". Oh....forgot the "smirk". I'll stop here! Got to get to work!
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
All I have to say to all of this is the two quotes from Bush that will always stick in my mind. It set the image I have of him. #1. When he put his hat in the ring to run for president, he was asked what his inspiration was to run for the highest office in the land. He put on the "smirk" and looked at the interviewer and said, "they asked me". Would like to know who "they" are. #2. Also being interviewed on TV, was asked about a year ago, why Iraq? Answer. "they tried to kill my dad". Oh....forgot the "smirk". I'll stop here! Got to get to work!
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
The bravery displayed on this board is commendable. Future generations will long remember the noble efforts of the brave laptop bombardiers, war bloggers, and armchair generals who sacrificied so much to vanquish our enemies.
And to think that many of those did it without any previous military or battle experience other than the skills aquired playing Unreal tournament and Doom. (What's the difference anyways?) Regardless, that's enough for me to believe all of you have the moral authority to send other peoples children to do the job.
The freedoms lost over the years to these un-constitutional adventures will never be regained. Si mentioned the cost is worth it, the billions spent for making the world safer for Haliburton and Israel. Sure, I'll remember that the next time one of you posts about our large, socialist government taking too much. How do you think they get into position to do it? Now a war is started, supposedly, on the premise of what a nation might do, not what they have done. We have crossed the Rubicon.
Well I have to go now, being just miles from the Canadian border. I hear word there's trouble a brewin'. Hey, just a thought though, why is it the Canadians aren't generating the hostility we get? Not as much prosperity or freedom as we have, or do they mind their own business better?
Just some ramblings from a right wing antiwar nut. See Si, there is such an animal. More of us here= http://www.antiwar.com Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Too many Chiefs here and not enough indians.
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
America...If you don't love it LEAVE IT! (Qoute Merle Haggard) Hit the border Mr. "Right". Canada would be a nicer place for you to hide behind a Anti-war protest sign with all the High School kids that don't have a clue either.
You're lucky you can hide here behind the great freedom we all enjoy thanks to the Veterans who went before us to give you the freedom to cowardly say what you wish. Just as I can speak my mind as well. As someone who travels overseas and was a Military Infantry Vet, I quite frankly LOVE AMERICA. Just Bring it!
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Canadians should be ashamed.
Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :
if we are going to be at war i would rather it be in iraq than in the good old usa.
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
I guess "War Bond Posters" should be in order for all of us SignPeople! Nay!!!!!!!
With the country I live in!
With the "Freedom of Allowing" anyone to migrate here FROM any Country! To come in peace and help to better mankind.
And to listen to the small children here(in Canada) on thier worries..
We are suppost to be the Keepers for them. NOT THE BIG BAD WOLF!!!!!!!!!!!
Think!.... Put yourself in thier shoes?
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Ya steve, and who is goona sooth them kids who lost thier parents 9/11????
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
I’ve been off thinking, like I said I would. I find now that this thread, much to my surprise, is still here! I also find support by some, and that is very much appreciated. I don’t post my opposing views for fun, sport or games. I do it to keep the pendulum swinging, and thought and hope alive.
Doug is, like Cam was in the monster post, anguished and giving it his all. I can really appreciate the work and care he gave at expressing his struggle with these issues. I can’t be the only one who thinks that there is merit in such labor for him personally, and a benefit for us whom he allows to share in the journey as he arrives at his own opinions. This ought to stimulate us, too, to think for ourselves. The difference between this and canned off the hip one liners, usually negative or derisive and mostly not even original, is blatant.
In Adrienne’s post, as well I see genuine and honestly searching questions. I also see implied answers, and I see that her mind is pretty much made up about what these answers are. I don’t mean this as a judgment, just a mention of that I notice it. I talked about her question where she compares Hitler and Saddam at length in another post. This is a subject dear to my heart, and it will always pull my strings, because I was born into a war ravaged Europe 2 weeks after D-Day, and lived with gratitude for the liberators my whole life. I feel that the Americans gave me my childhood, which would have been doomed otherwise, or ended before it began. Then they took me in and allowed me to become one of them 35 or so years later. The differences of then and now, of an unqualified need then to go to war to end one, and an unqualified need now not to start one, are glaring in my view. Unfortunately that post was taken off the board in less time than it had taken for me to write it. I think for Adrienne, who is expressing a desire to understand this difference, it would have been beneficial to read it. Had this been possible, and had she thought it through, I am willing to place a small bet that this question would not have appeared in her list any more.
It has been more than 6 weeks now since our President last spoke to Jacques Chirac. It has been way longer than that since he spoke to the German chancellor. Nobody questions that the Iraqi dictator should be removed. The unanimity of the world was in reach. There were ways to do it without engendering world distrust and ill will and by playing by the rules. I believe we messed up.
Victory in Iraq is a certainty. We have 400 billion and they 1.5 billion in what we spend on the military. But our victory will not bring the world back on board as our allies - because we did not play by the rules. Much has been destroyed in the last two years by our professed and demonstrated lack of team play. Cheering Iraqis, liberated into bomb delivered democracy, and then ruled by the US will not rebuild world cooperation.
I read that in February of 2003, according to Ha’aretz the Israeli newspaper, undersecretary of State John Bolton told Israeli officials that after defeating Iraq the United States would “deal with” Iran, Syria and North Korea. Think about it.
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Hey Steve, You are Right!! IT IS ABOUT OIL!!!! It is about the oil money that will feed a nation and not go into creating a military empire for a madman. The world is willing to buy this oil at a market value, but only stupidity would allow the profits go to Saddaam. So please feel free to BOO at the next hockey game, basketball game, or circle **** you attend.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Hi Santo
You are right, as in the sense of Booing!
I have never booed a (Sports Game in My Life.) as I believe that these overpaid "JOCKS" with NO True Talent!, will never get my money!!!!! I do give to the people that really need the help!
But that is just me. Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
I for one would be willing to bet; NOBODY over here relly wants a war or the results of one, but I also bet that NOBODY wants to give up they're rights or liberties ! Its always some "mental case" dictator who starts threatening our quality of life, our ability to earn a lifestyle we prefer, they call us "capitolist pigs" why cause we built a soceity based on FREEDOM and they're people would like the same? Well that upsets the applecart for they're plans to stay in power, to rule their people and keep them burdened and hungrey. The U.S usually ends up paying for most of the food and meds for these people, these people who are fed constant propaganda of how the "capitolist pigs" only want the oil.
Get serious folks, you are here because you are givin the right to be, without that right (protection from a country not afraid to be politically INCORRECT)you might be in the middle east, and they wouldn't "ask you to fight", they would MAKE YOU FIGHT !!
Years ago, as a 'workin man", I observed a conversation between my (arogant boss)and a damn good mechanic in the shop, the boss never liked the mechanic because he wouldn't bow down, act afraid, nor would the mechanic worry about being "politically correct". So in the conversation, the boss dramitically requested the mechanic "get his truck and load-up his tools" !! The mechanic calmly pondered and finaly said to the boss "ya know, it would be a lot easier if YOU just picked up yer pencil, load it in yer pocket and get on down the road"
It would have been a lot easier if Saddam just loaded up and went on down the road, let his suffering people have some rights, and some liberties, food, health care, all those things we AMERICANS seem to take for granted !!!!!!
Roger Posted by Stephen Broughton (Member # 2237) on :
What is it with you people, making too much money? well you must have too much time on your hands to sit here bitching at each other, why can't you agree to disagree and move on, and some of it, man I've never read so much jingoistic rubbish in my life, if you hadn't noticed we have 8 dead British royal marines, 4 US aircrew and 1 US marine so far and its gonna get worse before it gets better, now think on their loved ones not yourselves and go and make SIGNS!!!! back to work.......
[ March 21, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Broughton ]
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
Short (as short as I can be) but sweet...
To the war protestors here... We're the bad guys here in America? Just one question then ...if Hussein were to leave the country he professes to love - and if he cares so much for his people - and he understands that the world is against him and his days are numbered - then HIS choice to NOT leave is what is causing this aggression - not the United States. Would he be the hero if he said "OK - I'll leave"?
We are only answering the (up to now) silent call from almost all the other Middle Eastern countries who want him gone also. Get your facts straight. There are many things of which you have no knowledge so your debate is founded only on your opinion - not 100% fact. (I despise war also - but I'm not in politics so I refuse to armchair QB)
So how is it that we are the selfish, uncaring aggressors? The Iraqis are the ones who are quietly pleading with us to help them. How will you respond when you see them kissing the feet of the coalition that freed them after this is over?? Will war have been OK then? I'd like to see it not happen as much as anyone.
Just by our first salvos launched on the first night, we tried to eliminate Hussein - based on intelligence reports) and end the chances for this going further. That's a policy that reeks of aggression? "Let's spare these people and just get this guy - and then it's all over" sounds less like an aggressor and more like a reluctant, compassionate, yet powerful world leader. Somebody has to be the big dog on the block - and it sucks to be us - but if not us then who? That's how history has been shaped since the art of war was introduced. We don't dominate countries and own them after we finish - we leave and let them govern themselves. Then WE pay to rebuild them. That's the mark of an aggressor?
It seems that most everyone here - if not all of you - understands that Hussein is a bad guy who inflicts punishment on his own people. Yet the name calling and labeling goes on in this post and others. Pacifists, liberals, conservatives, etc.
How about this... we are all free human beings living in free countries and enjoy that right as a result of past wars and aggressions. Yet every person critical of the Iraq policy so far benefits from past actions like these. We are not the same country we were with silly foreign policiies like we had in VietNam. It is a new world - and the enemy does not have borders, wear uniforms or possess armies. But despots like Hussein only empower them by giving them credibility - and supporting them because of sharing a common enemy - the U.S.
This is all based around a policy/doctrine written by Paul Wolfowotiz after the first Gulf War that suggests preemptive strikes to stop problems from arising before they must be dealt with by the nations of the world - specifically the U.S. The policy was reintroduced by V.P. Cheney (who rewrote the original doctrine after the U.S. and Wolfowitz got ripped by the press after it was leaked back in '91) after 9/11. It seemed at the time that the Wolfowitz draft of the original doctrine/policy was seen then as too aggressive for a united coalition of willing countries.
Our freedom (the worlds freedom) has come at the cost of a lot of blood (as I said, I personally don't care for war) and though all countries have suffered through war - maybe it is the only thing that will help stop further attacks on innocent citizens.
Europeans and Canadians and other countries may not care for our governments policies - but they don't label all Americans as aggressors or war-mongers. Only our Government. Since we are all signmakers here, why don't we give them a chance to see if their foreign policy and ways of dealing with terrorism work first. Then let's have the finger-pointing and the "I told you so's".
It sure seems like a lot of the armchair politicians and political science experts here are in the wrong business. How would you like it if the politicians came into your shop and told you how to run things?? There is much that we don't know people - and while it is our right to express our varied points of view - the name calling and opinion bashing should wait until this is all done. Then you can begin the name calling.
Again, if Hussein left, no problem - no war. He stays, he causes war to happen against "my people". Our fault? Then answer this: Which came first, the chicken - or the egg?
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Need I say more? I rest my case!
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
We've been watching this post closely. Emotions are running high and we have bent the rules to allow you to express yourselves. I hope I have made the right decision.
Last night I watched the pro and anti war protesters fight it out on the tv screen. In one instance, protesters actually came to blows with each other.
Those of us who remember the Vietnam War protests saw families torn apart. Many of the emotional wounds were so deep, it took years to heal. In extreme cases, it never did heal. I have no intention of allowing all the positive things we have accomplished here together, be diminished or destroyed because of political issues that have nothing to do with our Letterville community.
All my instincts tell me to delete this thread before you start beating up on each other personally. To be honest, I see the same old people debating the same old issues. I suspect some of the editorials are not even the writer's own words, but comments by cut and pasted. Is their really anything good that can result from this debate?
Barb and I are going out for dinner with Joe and Angel Endicott. Maybe I won't be so upset once I get something to eat. In any event, there is a good chance that this topic and future attempts to keep things stirred up over political issues may be deleted. This is a Letterhead Meet. Remember?
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I find it interesting that my name was mentioned twice in this thread, without my having written a word.
Hmmm. I seem to be on people's minds more than I thought.
And to Steve, I respectfully request that if you find it necessary, lock this post, instead of deleting it.
[ March 21, 2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Cam Bortz ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Some of the support here for our troops strike me as looking like the cowboy riding in on his white horse. Some references to protestors sound like convicting the villan with the black hat. (not you C.J. )
As we all know in a lucid moment, we are not really so polarized into black & white.
So off with the rose colored glasses for some, & out from the shadows for others, & let a little light shine on the colorful diversity in our neighborhood. We owe each other a little more "bit depth" in our views. We may not really fall so far into different camps if we apply a little color management into staying in the light.
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
Hello Steve:
I scanned the posts on this thread one by one, looking for cut and paste opinions, and I simply cannot find a more personal array of commentary, full of individual and well known idiosyncracies of the people posting.
It is not up to me to agree or disagree with your assessment. But I surely can't see it. I hope you have a splendid dinner, I hope this will remain sufficiently civil to not warrant deletion when you return.
Everywhere we look it's "America at War." It will fester on our minds whether we as the Letterville community have a way to talk to each other about it or not. We can't be single dimensional, or we would not be the diverse group of people our posts show us to be.
I, if given a voice, also vote for locking vs. deletion of posts.
[ March 21, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Myra Grozinger ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
as most of the war mongers have said....us liberials are reactionary and the right is ACTION. heres a point to ponder, since we liberals think... this whole thing is similar to a disease. yep the war disease. it all started with an infection of the AL-QUIDA virus with the attack on the U.S. not all of us got infected with the REVENGE flu. those that did are now into the last stages of the disease, sort like a rabid dog, before the disease consumes him and he dies from it. we have all seen this, and totally understand it from a "illness" point of view. but this war virus is insidious, sorta like alcoholisum, most are consumed by it even after they realize they are sick. now iam not saying that i wasnt affected by 9-1-1 far from it. but aperently i didnt get the flu.....i dont want more DEAD PEOPLE because it will make me feel better. those of you who have the flu will not get better even after this war because you will need more of the drug(killing) to try to make you feel better...war is infectious, you have been bombarded with stimulants(washington, rush, media hype) on how its gona make you all feel better once we get rid of the revenge flu. well some understand your plight, we are the one who are imune or have been infected before and gotten well. their is hope for a cure.....its called UNDERSTANDING, FOREIGN DIPLOMACY, GIVE AND TAKE, AND LETS ALL TRY TO LIVE IN PEACE. someday this disease will no longer be a threat to any of us......we can always hope.....
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
May the Force be with you OP!
Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
Does one really have the jewels to post their 3800 post as a non resident? Their is just not enough entitlements out there...
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
The egg was first, Jay - dinosaurs had 'em.
(Don't take it personally, Adrienne)
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Hey, O.P., I have an Idea
Why don't you organise a "peace movement", yeah, instead of all the "street protesting' in this country and others, you could start a campaighn for all liberals.
You get the phone #,e-mail addresses,etc. of all the tyrants, dictators, opressive types in control of these agressive countries/ groups.
Then you liberals could get on the communication lines and ask these bad asses to PLEASE stop the teiriny(sp) and "give peace a chance" !!!!
What about it Joe? think all you liberals could get together and do something positive ? Or , did you just want some cheese with that.....
Roger Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Awww give my buddy OP a break. He is a good guy. He just wants peace. And who the **** cares if he isn't a resident. I don't.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I'm all for locking this one Steve. It's kinda odd how the debating went so civil, until the war started . I'm quickly gaining respect for some folks and losing it for others. That applies to people on both sides of the dabate, or what was once a debate Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
conservative gloating is simply a pumped up self-important form of whining. Don't confuse your gloating with "doing something positive" because for those with eyes to see, it is purely negative.
You don't have to agree with everything OP says (I know I don't) to show him respect. I respect the different viewpoints here & the people who stand behind them, but views that are nothing more then an attack on the views of others do not garner much respect.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
I think the anti war people are painted with too broad a brush. I see them a anti war which really is anti killing. This is a great and noble cause.
But if they are percieved as anti self-protection then I would guess that would bring contempt.
deleting posts. < please don't
whenever a society has no legitimate outlet of expression there are consequences. The main of which is that the participatns will go underground which in the long run detracts from the respect and authority of those in charge.
a point:
In the past some emotions were vented thru less than professional emails. Locking and editing a post is good. Deleting sometimes backfires.
[ March 21, 2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Curtis hammond ]
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Yep! Doug and Others... I really hated the look at the Sign I saw Today!!!!!! I am glad I didn't make it.
But then again! Maybe I did........
[ March 21, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Mike...someone suggested I do a bumper sticker with a peace sign that said "Footprint of the American Chicken" But I didn't want to bring chickens into this!
A;)
Don't throw anything at me!!!! I'm just kiddin'! Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
HEY! FRIENDS & NEIGHBOURS!
We are a loveable Signwriting Community here. Recently got to meet many of you in my travels. Known many of you thru this place and the Chat Channel for years.
Never in that time have I found amoung you a "Neighbour" I feel I have to build a 12ft razor wire fence on my boundry to keep yer out!
I respect your political opinions. I have my own! But use somewhere else to grab each other by the throat! This is a SIGNWRITER'S town!
I haven't found one person yet who wanted this war. It's there now for reasons beyond our individual control. Yer can't change life. It has no boundaries in this modern world of air travel and internet. We all suffer together.
The Pros and Cons will go on forever!
Steve ... please lock this thread ... before friends here stop being worldwide SIGNWRITING mates!
My door is always open to you all ... come on in Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Please lock the thread, I have said too much.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Roger, dont throw stones that can be thrown back. OP offers alot to this board. Hell, I dont always agree with everything he says, but hes always there to help out on posts of sign nature. Its too bad you think of liberals the way you do. This liberal uses quite a bit of your rapid tac. Doubt I will anymore though. Your words are too strong on a post that seemed to be very intelligent. To a point. And Jack, the old idea that only residents are allowed to participate in certain issues is long gone. There are quite a few visitors that add alot to this board. Out of those 3800 posts OP has made, most of them have been of a helpful nature. Some of you just cant let it get away from being personal. Ive thought all day about this war, and had alot to add to this post, but the heck with it. Im too liberal to be taken serious. See now, you guys got to me. Thats what you wanted, to get the sh** stirred up. Oh yeah, OP for president.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
OP made lots of those posts as a resi ( i believe) that is until he fell upon a few hard days..
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Please don't pick on OldPaint!!!!!
Even though some of his comments sound like he has a few bubbles in his think tank... on Chat, we all consider him a personal friend!!!!
Myra, John and Doug...please don't take these debates as personal attcks! None of us like or enjoy war. We all need a chance and place to vent and express our feelings, at a time like this. Personal attacks are not appropriate.
Hopefully this war will end soon, with minimal losses to both sides.
Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
Who mentioned O P? I just think there is a time to join, or stand a little further back with the opinions. I don't understand the liberal ways, but will respect your rights to have and to share them.... and I am certainly not anti-guest. I share a lot of generousities with people down on there luck, just not 3800 of them. Oh, and when I share generousities with them, I don't expect to listen to all their long winded political debagle, telling me how pitiful my conservative ways are. If you don't catch a lot of this in a huge percentage of those posts, then you aren't reading them. Oh, and this is not meant as a personal attack against anyone, unless you make it one. Maybe if you will read the last of those posts, you will see a personal attack on every conservative person reading this thread. I'm a conservative, as are most others on the board. Just something I felt compelled to say after 3 years of reading this crap (amazing how you can defend it), and I will say no more on the matter... Oh, and here's my friggin smilie
[ March 21, 2003, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: bronzeo ]
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
OK - once more with feeling. This post is going to either disappear or stop dead in a lock, and I want to say a couple of things that are very personal on a day that will go down in infamy.
I am extremely upset today. I am as upset today as I was on 9/11 and the people who are dying as I write are not related to it, nor is their leader (who is an avowed enemy of Osama bin Laden), and who is possibly already dead. Yet we are bombing on. He is only linked to it in the minds of those that want to call Margarine Butter, such as in "butter-like".
"Al Quaida-like" or "Terrorist acts like 9/11" is what our propaganda speeches called the bill of goods they were trying to sell us down to the last minute, and unfortunately succeeded in convincing us of to a large degree. Had they had a genuine link of responsibility to 9/11 we would have had it smeared all over us to gather more support at home, to make us look better in the absence of a world coalition.
What I am saying is that we have no proof that the killing we did today was in retalliation for 9/11. We will find nothing that will in any way excuse the rampage we went on today, and the murder we perpetrated, and the ill will of the world we loaded on ourselves.
Not only was there a better way, we were on a path to find it but for the obstinacy and closed ears of our administration who were in a hurry to not miss the best weather for the attack and would not give this a little more time. There but for the sandstorms lie the dead.
In my paper this morning a letter to the Editor had the following quote from President Eisenhower. A speech he gave at Texas A&M in 1953 at the end of the Korean war. I am so upset today, I may never post again, but I want to leave this quote with you:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children...This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity that is hanging from an iron cross."
[ March 21, 2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Myra Grozinger ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
ah yes, the old nitrogen narcosis. I know one thing, without the obsessive compulsive disorder that forces me to concern myself with spelling & other grammatical trivia, I'll bet OP types about 3 times as fast as me. How do you think he got 3800 posts anyway ?
OK Si, no offense taken. We are all forgiven! You too Roger. I'm sure you meant to include a few smily's Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
Myra,
I love the Eisenhower quote - but the irony of that quote coming from a former military general involved in one of the bloodiest wars ever loses a bit of the intended goal of the statement, don't you think? We all come to our senses eventually - but when did Eisenhower experience his epiphany?
Also, though I, like you, don't support ANY war, don't you think that taking out one irresponsible regime and a few hundred Iraqi soldiers/military leaders may save tens of thousands of Kurds lives who live just to the North of Baghdad? Remember, they are Iraqi's also. If there wasn't already a killer on the loose over there then we wouldn't need to be there at all. I think that is the basic point the supporters of this action here are trying to get across here.
I saw an Iraqi take off his shoe in the port city of Umm Qasr today when the Marines were tearing down a large picture of Saddam. He beat the face of Hussein with the shoe and then everyone in the streets started chanting and dancing thanking the Americans for their freedom from any more of his oppression. What is your response to that? We are brutal? We are wrong? The Iraqis really do like him? (Sarcasm intended) Maybe you don't like war - and neither do I. But when I saw that I realized that maybe the US policy may have a better understanding of what they need to do. I just don't know. But neither do you. And you don't know for 100% surety that this ISN'T about terrorism - and Hussein's connections to it. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes to mind. Hussein and bin Laden share the common hatred of America. But I don't know - and neither do you.
Terrorism aside, Hussein butchers his own people. How is it that you see the US as the irresponsible aggressors and liken our killing to his? I say again, Hussein leaves the country, there is no war. But he stays. Truly a megolomaniac's approach. He only wants to hold power - not really caring for his people.
I also wonder, did you also shed a tear when Hussein gassed 10,000 Kurds? I bet not. But you are quick to apply your point of view on this war as being the right one - and others as being war-mongers who care little about life. The soldiers who are lined up to fight for the freedom of the people of another country VOLUNTEERED for the call to support their country. They weren't forced at gunpoint. Will you shame their bravery by spitting on them when they return? Will you share your disappointment with their decision to go to war for their country's continued freedom? I suspect you won't as you seem like a really intelligent person.
Myra, I hate war. I have never taken the life of a warm-blooded anything (I do fish!!) But war has been a part of the fabric of world order since the first pointy stick was fashioned out of a tree limb. You will never change that - nor will I. If you are Christian then you might understand the inevetability of the failings of man.
Me? I'd like to know why we can't rewrite the ending of the Bible by doing exactly what you propose - living peacefully with all humans. But that, Myra, isn't what the real world is like. It is full of hate, death, sadness, misery, poverty, etc. Some call it sin. And those with faith hope that it will go away someday. Me included. But that is in the big guys hand - not George Bush's, not Hussein's, not yours and not mine. It's a great notion - but it isn't reality.
God bless your desire for a peaceful world. I mean that in all ways. It just won't happen while man still lives on this planet. And this BB should stick to signs as the foreign policy "experts" always come to blows and outright anger. But that, Myra, only reinforces my point about the failings of man.
[ March 21, 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Did someone say "Fire Away!"?
[ March 21, 2003, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Hey Glenn, mind if I steal your smiley?
Thanks!
No disrespect to the seriousness of the day but,I think we need a little comic relief now & then.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
The "secret" is out!
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHH
HEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHHH HOHOHOHHOOHOHHOOHOHOHHOHOOHOHO!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
ROFL!!
Good one, John!
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Glenn.
Isn't it nice to PLUCK a Chicken (Feather by Feather) Before you Kill It!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I dunno. Sounds kinda kinky to me.
[ March 21, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Sorry Glenn.
I just saw a report of some of the Children in thier Country asking to be helped! But on the "Sad News" we are stopping thier lives before it started.
Please People....(Think!)
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
A good friend of mine was a LRP (long range patrol) in Viet Nam. One day commin gin from a 30 day run him and his platoon saw some chickens running around.
Thinkin it was time to eat some real food they chased down the chickens thinking of a good ol home BBQ.
The captain come out an yells Thems my chickens. Leave em alone. Dag nabit they say.
The day goes on and the boys get cleaned up, shave and finally eat canned food all the while staring down them chickens.
Later that evening the Cap comes by and says any one of you eat one of my chickens you all will be in trouble. IF one chicken comes up missing same thing.
Not withstanding the temptation bu tnot wanting to ruin thier comming RR the men wait till the chickens go to roost. They were immediatly captured. The cackling cacaphony woke up the dogs but not the captain.
The next morning the boys hop on the first huey out to Thailand for a RR trip.
The chickens were still there walking around naked. 100% plucked... thats the end of the story.
every time i see a naked chicken i think of the boys pluckin' them chikens out of spite..
Posted by J & N Signs (Member # 901) on :
Just lost my biggest digital print contract! Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Stephen,
War is a terrible thing, particularly for children. So is doing nothing.
If you have the time, you may want to read this...
Maybe no one asked George Dubya to be the big brother to the world, but realistically, someone needs to be. I'm glad to see someone like Britain and Tony Blair beside him to help temper thengs a little bit.
Hailing from Canada, my initial feelings were against going in unless the UN gave its blessing. But, when it became apparent that Saddam was still just playing games with the UN, I opened my eyes and saw the need for the invasion.
Unfortunately, the Canadian Government has done nothing but embarass many Canadians by sitting so hard on the fence that it's hurting my butt! The lack of commitment to come out and support our parent country (Britain) and our largest partner in every sense (America) whether we commit Armed Forces or not is truly embarassing for this Canadian. I feel like I might as well move to France!
Posted by Del Badry (Member # 114) on :
I have many things i'd like to say....
i agreed and laughed along with everyone of si's points....
Op, why you bringin up the pope... like yur catholic..hahahaha chi man! plus there record is kinda tainted,, they didnt mind war when hitler was rampaging the world...(humor)
I was saddened yesterday, when i heard on a local talk show an 85 year old veteran who was ashamed to be a Canadian, when our country would not stand on the side of our closest ally..were on the same side as countries like Syria, Libya , North Korea,,, and oh yeah France.... which is why were where we are... Jean wants to be the next secretary general (he needs a cooler name like Boutrous Boutrous Chretien)...
its interesting late in the post and the day to see the web posts and reports of Iraqis happier than a hobo with a hotdog, with the americans coming in...
the war reporting is so different, because the war is so different.. ask a vet... the Americans are doin everything in there power to not harm civilians.... if this was the second world war ,they would have firebombed iraq by know and we'd be on to the next rogue...
people will be killed , but in the long run, people will be saved...
be glad you have a leader/administration that has the gonads to stand up to this... Clinton's gonads must of been busy with other stufffff!!!!!!! out!!!!!!!!!!!!
war -------- peace!
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
To anyone who thought I was harsh with O.P., well I was just offering an idea for him to work with.
He called himself a liberal(not me) he called me and all other supporters of this U.S. action, "sick with a KILLING flu". I say he is calling us names, not the other way around.
For once I would like to hear someone who is unhappy with the way things are, please bring to the table not only your objection, but your ideas to resolve the problem.
Thats all !
Roger Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Here you go Roger, READ THIS! I think you will find more then whining within those 248 posts.
I think that those that had some genuinely thought out opinions about alternatives that may yet have existed before abandoning diplomatic solutions, are now under no obligation to go into a discussion about options that no longer exist. I don't think that fact voids there right to disagree with the action taken, or there right to our respect.
I personally have moved into a position somewhat in alignment with this military action for reasons similar to what Ted has just stated, but I have seen, read & held opinions that are not only opposed to it, but not without thoughts on otheractions that may have been preferrable.
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Jay...you said it man!!!!
And Roger, that's what I've been trying to say here.....those oppossing the war, Bush, bombs, killin', whatever ...have STILL not answered my question....
IF...YOU....where the one to make the decisions about Iraq....What...if anything would you do or have done.
Last time I asked here on this board OP emailed me about how...first.... "Bush shouldn't have won...yadda, yadda, yadda......"
But....not one idea or plan as to to what to do about Saddam.
Let's hope he's dead....REAL dead...and then we can get this over with. I see a lot of Iraqi's surrendering....and VERY few civilians or soldiers have lost thier lives....compare that to wars of the past.
Can't we all just...git along?
A:)
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
That is what makes me wonder if the "anti-war" group is really just "anti-Bush."
If Gore had been elected and made the same decisions, would we be seeing these kinds of protests?
We saw the same protestors with the same signs back in 1991 -- "No War for Oil" and "No Blood for Oil". We didn't see them in 1998 when Clinton initiated "Operation: Desert Fox".
Some, such as Howard Dean, are saying that Dubya is acting unilaterally. Yet, there are more countries participating in Bush 43's coalition than in Bush 41's UN supported coalition back in 1991.
We're told that we will be killing innocent Iraqi children. Yes, that is going to happen. But the number killed will be greatly smaller than those who died under Saddam's regime. And those who survive will have something they never would have had otherwise..... and opportunity to be free. Sadistic pedophiles like Uday won't be around to rape, torture and murder children for sport.
War is a terrible thing. But, doing nothing is worse.
"Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffet
[ March 21, 2003, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by dveenema (Member # 833) on :
We need a "regime change" here in Canada. Maybe when the US has a spare moment they can help us logical thinking Canadian's take our country back!
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
lol...Dennis.....how about we just move the border North about 200 Km?
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