1) You own a retail shop and another sign shop comes to you to design and produce a sign.
2) You own a retail shop and another sign shop brings a design in for you to produce.
He knows that this type of work is your shops specialty and that you're not a wholesaler.
Should you sign the finished product or does the other sign shop take the credit?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Assuming it is for resale, I wouldn't sign it.
My personal opinion is that the other shop gets the credit in whatever form they deem appropriate.
[ February 28, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
Agreed.... I would just be happy that they chose me to produce it for them. I feel I get enough credit for my other works. I know some will feel that you might be making the other shop look good. If it were an extremely nice sign, I would sign it with my personal name such as an artist would and let them put their trade name on it. Just my view.....Jack
Posted by Steve Nuttle (Member # 2645) on :
It seems to me that it kind'a depends. Did they bring you a design and ask you produce a sign in the medium that you specialize in, or did they want you to do all the design work and produce the sign? If it were the former I would not sign it as it is kind'a a subcontract job. If on the other hand you had to create the design and prodouce the sign I would not let it out of my shop with out signing it! Fair is fair. Good luck what ever you do!
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
I have to agree with the two opinions above. Since I'm in the 4th week of my 5 week class on Critical Thinking in Ethical Situations, I'm sure my opinion carries great weight. I certainly could not sign the work. I would however, moniter the installed work to verify the extent of credit claimed by the other shop. There may not be anything I would try to prevent them from signing their name, if it would be overly exaggerated, I would be more exaggerated in my pricing next time around.
[ February 28, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Santo ]
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I usually design only, then it goes out to bid, if the sign shop show it as thier design it is unethical, if they show it for capabilities AND they give credit to the designer, than I think they have a right to take a certain amouunt of credit, as long as it does not encroach on the designers relationship with the mutual client. If a shop asks you to design it, it's like any other customer, BUT only if it does not hurt the client relationship with the person who commisioned you to do it. Thats my take on it. Rick
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
I would say that it would be like any other subcontracting type of service. I produce art for 5 other screenprinting shops, and on most stuff, I would never "sign" my name. Now if they "claim" to have produced it themselves, then that's not ethical on their part at all.
Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
I do a lot of work for other sign shops and would never think of signing the work. If the customer comes out when I am installing, I say that I am their installer. When I have a large routed job I have it done and see no need to tell the customer I subbed it. My customer is the other sign shop, what they tell their customer is their business. I have heard my customer tell their customer some of the most ridiculous things, not my place to correct them.
Posted by Robb Lowe (Member # 2121) on :
I'd sign the back of the check.
Whenever a situation like this comes up, I think of that scene in Pulp Fiction where Ving Rhames is telling Bruce Willis why he should throw the fight.
"That nagging feeling? It's your pride. (throw in a whole bunch of expletives here)" Pride dont get you (more expletives)"
Pride doesnt pay the rent or grocery bill. Repeat customers do.
Besides, if the shop screws you over in the future, go to the site of YOUR sign and announce yourself to the owner with pictures of YOU making his sign! (it pays to have a digital camera and keep records)
Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on :
1. The designer takes credit for the design and should make sure the production is up to the standards for his design.The project is yours and you should take credit,as for signing your work I wouldn't as it may reflect poorly upon your client. 2.This is production work you can only take credit for the production,as the design is someone elses I wouldn't sign it as it would possibly reflect poorly upon you,trying to take credit for someone else's design. In the end it is only your ethics that you have control over and they should reflect your professionalism. Lots of times this can be a grey area but in the end it is how the public percieves your ethics that is important.
[ February 28, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: timi NC ]
Posted by Rick Whitmire (Member # 3443) on :
WE DESIGN AND PRODUCE FOR OTHER SIGN SHOPS...OUR BIGGEST CUSTOMER AND OUR FIRST CUSTOMER FALLS INTO THIS AREA. We have designed logos and promotional lititure for sign shops and printers with an art staff that are 3-4 times the size of ours...the bottom line ...money is money...whats the diff? They need the srvice... if qualified provide it and do your best.
Rick @ Trick
Posted by Tom Bahr (Member # 2925) on :
The credit your looking for pays the bills about as good as the credit my customers always want. Just two different kinds of credit.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Its well known that the person ultimatly Responsible for the entire job gets the credit.. then sub credits are given when appropriate to those who contributed. IE A pilot in command get the credit for landing the plane and gives credit to his crew.
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
in either case i would not sign the sign because your other signshop is reselling the job.the ethical question of putting his name on it would be his dission especially if he designed it.
if this other sign company was registered distributor of your custom signs than yes put your name on it and charge a francise fee...kind of like a brand name.
but i think most important of all, if you are proud of the sign you made then make sure you take picture of it and put it in your portfolio. that is were your greatest chance of reconition will come from for a potencial customer. and the portfolio is the greatest chance for a sale and is not the back of a sign, that is rarely, or never seen from the road. then i pose another question do you sign the front or the back.?!?
as always let you concense be your guide(Jimmny Cricket) and this is just an opionion.
chris
P.S. does Gemini put there name on the front of there letters that they sell to us sign companys. but we all know by the quality were they come from.i have found that even non sign people have knowledge of this company and there product. it use to be before computers and francise shops the you could drive through town and tell which company did which sign be the style, quality, design skills, and of course the casual leetering style they profected over the years.
again just my humble opinion
chris
[ March 01, 2003, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: Chris Lovelady ]
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
This old question has many variables. Who takes the credit. The company that sold it? The designer? The guy that actually did it? The salesman? I know that I've seen signs that I did repainted by someone else who put their bug on it after the repaint. I didn't like that. I remember doing that myself when I was young and wanted the credit. The old timers straightened me out quickly.
Posted by Terry Baird (Member # 3495) on :
What prompted me to post this question was Steve S's post on Feb 10th about the Oracal sign contest. Many people (myself included) took a stand that anyone that took credit for someone else's work is a dirtbag. After reading it again and reading the posts in this thread, the ethical question of design "ownership" becomes less clear to me. The majority of posts seem to believe that a subcontracted job is just that and the contractor takes the credit. What if he entered your sign in the Oracal contest? Is it still his sign?
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
I've letered trucks for other area sign shops in the past. I've done subcontracted work for other sign shops. I regularly (weekly) subcontract airbrush work, striping and gilding for other shops.
I view what I do as a business first. I'm in business to:
Generate income by doing what I feel I'm good at.
So if I do it for a good customer, or a pain in the ass customer, or a competitor...I do what I do best, as well as I can.
Let 'em take credit for the work...what do I care. If it garnishes them similar work, I'll probably end up doing it for them as well...without all the headaches. THEY sell the job, deal with the client, and have to collect. I push some paint and count my dough.
As far as "signing" the job...I have never, in more than 20 years, signed my commercial work. I feel (strongly) that if someone is paying me their hard-earned bucks, to advertise THEIR business...who am I to put my name on that job.
I don't let the car dealer advertise for free on my vehicles.In that same vein, I won't advertise my business on someone else's.
The way I see it, I'd rather give that client a dozen business cards to give to anyone who inquires. If I did my job well, people will ask. If I didn't do my job well enough to generate inquiries..I don't deserve to have my name on the job in the first place.
I have to asgree with Brian. ihave never put my name on a sign unless the customer wanted me to.
Posted by Bill Biggs (Member # 18) on :
I always sign "my work", either as a company logo or my sig somewhere in the artwork. However, If I am subbing, and the folks provide the artwork I do not. Vehicle graphics and signs, especially industrial ones, are reordered by different people, so your signature on them lets them know who did it last time. If it was a good job you should be proud to sign it. My Opinion, I call my labels on vehicles, a warranty tag. Bill
