Having seen David's post go to 5 pages of responses, it is obvious this subject has not been exhausted.
Having read and taken some time to think about the issue, I have come to a number of conclusions.
1. There is no longer any reason to tolerate the continued existance of the current Iraqi regime. Saddam Hussein is going to be remembered in history as one of the most truculent and bloody-minded dictators ever. He attacked Iran in 1980, starting a war that lasted eight years and involved the use of poision gas. He used poison gas (I refuse to use the term "chemical weapons", it is what it is) on his own citizens on several occasions in the 1980s, then of course invaded Kuwait in 1990. He has maintained his power by terrorizing and murdering his own citizens, maintaining a Stalinist regime (in practice if not ideology.) Further, he has continued to threaten the stability of a region of the world which is vital to Western interests. One way or another, this has got to be stopped.
2. The United States Government bears complicity in these events, by our actions in supporting SH in the past, and by overlooking and tolerating his past actions out of expediency and short-term interests. This is shameful. We as Americans have allowed our government to create a monster, a monster who has killed millions of innocents and cost billions of dollars to contain. This means we have a moral obligation to correct that mistake.
3. The current administration fully understands that NO decision it makes will satisfy those who protest against a war with Iraq. The motivation of the protest leaders is far deeper than the current situation, the Iraq crisis is an opportunity, not a cause, for these protests. Further, the nature of the Iraqi regime and its actions are an established fact. This is a regime which murders its citizens and wars with its neighbors, in violation of the moral standards of every enlightened human being. To support such a regime, as an excuse for villifying a political or ideological opponent, is a destestable act of hypocrisy.
4. SH has manipulated the ideological conflicts within the UN throughout his career, and is playing one side against in a so-far successful attempt to distract the world from taking an objective look at his actions and at the nature of his regime. The sad fact is, sooner or later there will be a war over Iraq. The nature of SH is that he will always force some form of confrontation with the West, whether we like it or not. To continue to tolerate an increasingly dangerous level of confrontation and instability is more than folly, it is inexcusable.
One anti-war argument is that war is unnecessary, given the UN inspection protocol. But inspectors can only confirm the disarmament of a regime that WANTS to disarm. Disarmament inspections worked in the Ukraine because its government actively sought to rid itself of leftover Soviet-era weapons. That's obviously not the case in Iraq, and no amount of wishful thinking and noisy demonstrations will make it so.
SH has had any number of opportunities to respond to UN resolutions and sanctions. To pretend that mere threats of some vague consequences, at some indeterminate time in the future, is going to force a butcher like SH to give up weapons is patently ridiculous. That's not right-wing rhetoric, it's an objective judgement following years of observation.
Some would point to the inevitable deaths of Iraqi civilians in a war. I can't argue with that, other than to ask how many of those civilians will live and die in terror uder a continuing SH regime? If anything, we should be asking the Iraqis for their forgiveness for taking this long. This issue could - and should - have been settled over ten years ago. The failure to do so then is not a compelling reason to fail to do so now.
I can already hear the objections; that I'm a "right-winger" or a Bush apologist. Whatever. Up until a week or so ago, I hadn't made up my mind about this. I'm not the kind of person who lets himself be swayed by emotional appeals or the braying of this-or-that talking head, and I have nothing but withering contempt for the legions of the professionally indignant, for whom the prospect of a war is merely another media opportunity.
I am no great fan of Dubya, and I have no use for the posturing and trumpets of flatulence of either Republicans or Democrats. Both sides are equally guilty of the blundering and hypocrisy, in both domestic and foreign policy, that has led us into this disgusting mess. The United States has been left no responsible choice, in my opinion, than to do what we have to do, at the cost of blood and treasure, to correct the errors of the past. My greatest fear is that in the end, we won't have learned much for all the bother.
One final note. Having spent the good part of an afternoon writing, editing and posting this, I'm obviously interested in what other folks have to say. However, I will state for the record that I have some basic expectations. Reasoned, articulate arguments based on objective facts are more than welcome. Incoherent ranting, name-calling (of me, Bush, or anyone else), insults, and all the other usual nonsense is of no interest to me whatsoever. If you want me to change MY mind, you are going to have to use YOURS.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Cam....well stated!
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
The US isnt going to get SH.
If the US wanted SH gone, they would have done the job in the Gulf War.
Posted by Mark Neurohr (Member # 2470) on :
I think Bagdad ought to be transformed into a GREAT BIG MUSHROOM!
Let's give some time for the people who choose to be freed get out first.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Well Cam
I think you Opened a can of Worms with your statement.
As a Canadian, our government ask us to registrate our fire arms (under strict control) But yours say that the more you have the better it is.. How many people in your country are killed from within because of this?
Chemical warfare...We are trying to start a Kioto Accord to stop chemicial pollution of the industries around the world but your government says forget it as the machine has to go on.(Cancer,Water Poisoning,Heatlh, Etc.)
They say that Canada is a large consumer of Oils and Gases but looking south of myself I see 10 times more of a population that squawks at a 1 cent increase of the product.
Compare $4.00-$5.00 per gallon to your $2.00-$3.00 per.
Now also look at the amount of items that are needed for your consumption. Most items are wrapped or contained in a plastic form...(Oil Based) From the throw away Plastic Cup,To the covering on your computer to the sides and bumper of your Car and then the Finish of your house.
I watched a program the other day about the Nation rich of Oil between 1910-1940 (U.S.A.) and how the Germany/Japan nations needed to take over the Middle East to become the most powerful country on earth.(Because they didn't have the Natural Resource in their home land. They didn't make it!
But now we are back to today and your resources are very low as you don't have a natural supply of this highly needed product.
You get much from Canada in the sense of Natural Gases. Your Alaska Pipe line is a help but not much!
I think that we have no right to play games (Of what we want and what we need.) So we will do anything to get it!
Don't we all say that the best thing in this world is democracy.. We have our ways to deal on with our problem here in the west and they will deal with theirs in the middle east. But to become the Big Brother of the World will start a school yard fight!
Remember for the population of this world of 6.5-7. Bilion, We here in the Western so called world is less than 1. Billion Thats alot of other people to "Pizz Off" and Take On!(Russia,China,India,Africa,Europia,Etc.)
Sorry but pushing others around the School Yard (To think like you think!) Will bring out the baseball bat to beat you into (The way I think!) Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
to Cam's above points, my thoughts are: over there
[ February 25, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :
i had rather see the war over there than over here.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
lol, thanks Jimmy, I edited that for you! Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Stephan, I'm no fan of my government. I have no interest in seeing its power expanded, for oil or anything else. The cynical bastards who make American foreign policy created this mess by playing along with this butcher, as long as they believed they could control him. They've done it with a lot of dictators before, from Stalin to Mobutu, and it has cost my country its respect in the world. For that, I'm sorry and I'm ashamed. I personally think its right that this man and his regime are destroyed. I also think it will be done for the wrong reasons, to cover up mistakes, rather than to correct or atone for them.
On the other hand I question those who regard the US as a renegade bully, intent only on pushing the world around. Bullies don't ask permission. Dangerous renegades don't appeal to the UN, they act entirely without regard to anyone's reasoned objection.
The other charge against the US is that we are just greedy for oil profits. If that were the case, why would we not just "cut a deal" with SH, and let him do whatever he wants? After all, why should we care who gets gassed in the Middle East? Apparently that's good enough for Chirac, and Schroeder, and Putin. The French and German governments can make its back-door deals with SH, then sit back and say, Oh, look! Our people are against the war! We have to respect the will of the People! It's remarkable how convenient it is when the will of the people happens to coincide with the financial commitments of European government finance ministries.
You are right about us. We are careless and arrogant and we frequently don't give a fat crap about the feelings of rest of the world. But then, we get to answer the 911 call every time the world gets its balls in a crack, and trust me, it makes you cranky after a while.
I didn't open this can of worms, the slimy things were all over the place when I got here.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Well said Cam, especially that "balls in a crack" comment.
Can't please everyone all the time so hey, let's ignore our allies' cries for help when they need it.
And for the record, this war isnt about oil. Less than 20% of the Oil the US uses comes from the Middle East. May 11, 1992: average cost of gasoline in the west coast is 1.19/gal. Feb 24, 2003, 1.72/gal.. 50 cents over 11 years? No big whoop.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
I do have a concern that when Saddam is "removed from power", who will be the "annointed leader" to take his place? The good ole USA does have a track record of installing and supporting puppet figureheads who tend to look favorably on the interests of the Americans. This latest situation is one of their own making, and before that there were others like the Shah of Iran, Marcos in the Phillipeans, Samosa in Nicaragua, and the list goes on.
History does have a way of repeating itself, and most especially where the Americam Foreign Affairs Department gets involved. I do agree that Saddam has to go, but I fear that whoever replaces him may become exactly what he represents some 15 or 20 years down the road. What will the gain be if that should occur? Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Here is the 5 day forcast for Iraq: 2 days
We have to remove Saddams jacket to find Usama (you all remember Usama don't you?) hiding in his pocket.
Thats what this is about.
Posted by E. Balch (Member # 3545) on :
A question:
If we only want oil then why did we take over Kuwait then leave??
We could have taken both Saudi Arabia and Iraq easily. We would have owned most of the oil in about 4 weeks. In fact we still can.
It's not about world domination.
There is a would-be bully in the corner of the playground trying to put a gun together. He isn't too dangerous yet but he claims that he's going to get you and he keeps trying to fit the gun pieces together. Are you going to take the pieces or wait till he shoots you?
ernie
Posted by Kristie Byrnes (Member # 3510) on :
hey Cam, I can say that I TOTALLY agree with you. And this is NOT about oil, like so many seem to think. And no, the thought of war doesn't appeal to me since I have two very close friends in Kuwait who will be on the front lines, and a nephew in the marines detained another year, but let me tell you, they are ready. So I say, "Rock ON USA" and do what we need to do for ALL of us.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Thanks Cam
For your response..
I think it is due time to move on to the next level of the industrial world. from the: Copper to the Bronze age Coal to Steel age Oil to Electrcial age.
Now it is time to work with what we have here in our own nations. Hydrogen Fusion.
The big boys GMC,FORD etc have made more then enough for us to bring out a vehicle that will stop using Gas and polluting our lands.
From our North Pole to the tip of the Anartic, I think we fare very well with all the resources needed to become self supported.
Here in Canada we have Ocean Oil Rangers on the East Coast and West that will supply the needs for the transition. Our (North West Territories) have capped wells of Natural gas and mines of unlimited Steel,Lead,Diamonds,Gold etc. Our harvest of wood is staggering. We have the largest supply of fresh water. Both countries have some of the riches food sources. All the middle East has to offer us is Oil and Sand! We don't need the Sand as we have lots of that as well. Now as far as the Oil. Let them sit on the Oil caps and blow it up thier Azz!
Both of our countries are world known for computer and telicomunications (sp?)
Yes I believe in better security on our borders so we don't have another 9-11. Remember there was many Canadians killed there too.
The one thing that I have to say as a Canadian to your country is you better stop with the Enbargos of Trade Goods.
Lets shake hands and work together as neigbouring Nations, brothers and sisters.
If the other side of the world want to blow each other up! Let them!
Posted by Mike McCloud (Member # 766) on :
Steven, please stay north of the boarder. It's obvious by your post that you aren't paying attention and you watch to much of the government channel. Kyoto allows the third world to polute just as much as they want to in order to catch up with the U.S. Our polution is almost '0' compaired to the way the third world does things. Besides that, our evil polution feeds about 80% of the planet. Kyoto is not about polution, it's about spreading socialism, pure and simple. You seem to have eagerly embraced all of the points of socialism. NEWS FLASH.... It doesn't work! It hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried. Do the math, do the homework. They attacked us, not you.... Have a tofu burger and a nice day...
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
S I G N S
ess i gee in ess
S I G N S !!!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
now yadone it!!!!!!!! IF YOU NEVER ATE A TOFU BURGER......you have no idea of good they are!!!!! vegitarian 15 years.....heheheheheheh
Posted by Troy Haas (Member # 472) on :
I will be the first to admit that I have not kept up on the information side of this as I would have liked to.
One thing I have kept up on is how "BAD" the U.S. and others are!!!!
"You big Bully !!! Quit pushing people around, oh by the way your check was a day late, update the postal service so we get our free money on time"
Everyone wants our hand out to come in the back door so they can bash us in the head coming through the front door.
Why should we complain, it happens right here in our own country!!! Everyone wants money for something they had no part in, that happened many years ago, and nobody alive experienced first hand.
Let's give tax money to farmers who use to provide wool to the armed services, but since "we" no longer use that much wool, we will pay you for it anyway...
Our schools are in trouble, cutting programs waste, etc. but talk about raising property taxes to help the kids and you might as well comit a deadly sin.
I do firmly believe that is what tax money is for, schools, police, fire (should be ambulance too), roads, etc. Not to give to some country whose major population lives in the middle of a freak'n dessert and isn't smart enough to move where they can grow food and have water!!!!!!
I too have no great love for a lot of people in charge today, most don't have the common sence god gave a catipiller!!!!
Please don't get me wrong, I do not think that we should "NOT" help out other countries!!!! I just think that just like how we spend our tax dollars here in the U.S., we need to be more concerned where and how the money is being spent.
It use to be when one country attacked another and "took it over" that attacked country became part of the attacking country and followed their laws, rules, etc. Now if one country attacks another they not only don't take control, they "PAY" to rebuild it!!!!!
If this war was only about oil then why don't we barge in there and take over and then we can sell oil to all these countries that have taken money for nothing for years.
Call this a rant, disagree, agree, it doesn't matter, it is my opinion. I could really voice some things but I will keep my mouth shut on those things.....until the right time, that is.
Posted by Jim Upchurch (Member # 209) on :
I wonder what kind of world we would be living in if the US had maintained an isolationist policy on foreign affairs ? Would europe be the same or would it be Communist or Nazi ? would the middle east be 100% fundamentalist militant Muslem ? Would South America be 100% communist ? Would the US even exist ? Should it have ? If left alone would it be an isloated stone age utopia ?
How you answer the questions will greatly affect how you look on this particular situation.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Hi Mike From Stephan.
I respect your views.
As far as staying North of your border, "I will!", As I have been to almost every major city in your States... NY,Boston,Detroit,Chicago,LA,Dalla (Nice Place)Washington,St.Louis. Philly Etc. Travelled around for 6 years. Have seen sites that I would not tell people to go to because of the pollution or poverty of the area.
Now as far as Socialism.....We have a very nice Medicare service in Canada that was started with the Social Party. It still works today! It's called the (Don't Pay a Cent Event!)
Kyoto is a OUR start to the world in order to stop the breakdown of Mother Nature.
As far as Tufu....I love Dults,Lobsters,Steaks,Salmon,Shellfish,Fowl,Pork,Vegies of all types..
Sorry to put a bier under your collar but the Provincial flower of Nova Scotia is a (Thistle)! Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
This topic has just about reached it's end. As I said in an earlier post.
"This post is only here for one reason. Talk of war and the anxiety of people around the World is everywhere. Day after day we are bombarded with "news" and images. There is no escape.
Barb and I agree with those of you who believe this forum should avoid any discussions that concern politics and/or religion. Past experience has taught us that these types of topics always result in emotional meltdowns and hard feelings that tend to linger. That has a direct effect on our dream of bringing signmakers together and turning them into Letterheads. This topic is a onetime exception to the rule. Here's why.
We can't have any impact on the war or the politics involved, but there may be a benefit in allowing Letterville users to voice their fears and concerns with their Letterville family. How are you expalining all this to your kids? Have you discovered a way to reduce the stress? Do you have loved ones serving overseas? How is all this affecting you on a personal level?
The pro vs anti-war debates are interesting, but I can watch professionals do that 24/7 on CNN. I urge you to save the political and religious debates for another time and place."
I'm not seeing posts that deal with the above. It's the same old political debate. We have to commend you all for keeping it on a friendly level, but I'm starting to see that change. It's time to take this debate to another forum and get back to our business here in Letterville.
Those that would enjoy furthur debate on this topic may want to investigate other forums that specialize in this subject. I know Glenn knows a few. Please add some links to them before we close this topic.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I think Steve is picking on me. Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Sorry Steve and Barb. and All.
It still boils down to a complexion of how we will work in this industry if we don't have this component.
Next level of Signs! Posted by Troy Haas (Member # 472) on :
Steve and Barb,
I usually stay out of these topic (politics/religion), and probably should have this time.
I am sorry if I was out of line or disrespectful to the two of you, or anyone else for that matter.
I have nothing but the highest regards and respect for the both of you and consider myself a better person for knowing you.
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
As long as it hasn't been pulled yet let me say I DID have about a half of a tofu burger once. GgGaaaaa-aaackkkkkk!
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