Hello friends, Here's an annoying problem. Do you ever get the customer who gets really ****ed off about having to aquire a sign permit? (actually ranting!)Then you end up having to defend yourself for protecting your license and your livelyhood. Some people just get mad at the city for everything, and these are usually the people who bich & bich but don't do anything about it. They probably don't even vote. This is a service I provide free of charge. (I let them know I'm doing it for free)All They have to pay is the $52.00 fee. I have turned down installations in the past because customers refuse to do this, however when its a wall paint, installation is a definite part of the whole process. What would you do, pass on the job? It's worth about $700.00. Hard for me to pass up. Any way I'm just annoyed needed to vent. Thanks, Glen.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
Glen, If the permit only costs $52, and your willing to take care of this for free, I would present the estimate to the customer for $750 INCLUDING the permit. Don't add on the permit after the customer agrees to the lettering price. Ask the customer ALL the questions up front before you start playing poker.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Lol! You have my sympathy!
Let him rant and rave, then say "Do you know the cost and greif that the City will put you through, if you don't get a permit?" Then charge him for the time and effort to get that permit!
I give my customers a choice of getting a permit themselves, OR charge them for obtaining one! You are no different than plumbers, electicians, etc. Permits are not free, nor is the time required to get them, especially in some cities, that take great delight in torturing applicants!!!!!!!
Posted by Mark Smith (Member # 298) on :
Glad you got to vent about this here.
However, don't give it a second thought. The permit costs $52. The city's charging that fee, not you. The customer has to pay it.
PERIOD! Posted by Peter Schuttinga (Member # 2821) on :
Recently did two 2' x 16 ' signs and 1 x 4' circle with a logo, for a customer who was going to take care of the permit. When I delivered the signs, they had yet to get the permits. Two days before opening day they went for a permit, only to be turned down on a number of reasons, such as size, colour.... They spent a lot of time back and forth with the inspector, and even went to two council meetings. Four weeks after opening day the signs finally have gone up, not a good start. Cost of permit $150 Canadian, Cost of lost productive time on their part - 10 hours, cost of lost advertising - 1 month, cost of the headaches/ hassle...... priceless.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Like Peter mentioned, there is more then the cost of permit to be charged (or hid in signage cost), there is risk of being denied. Maui has a majority of non-compliant signage. Our sign code is very strict, but enforcement is nil. Most of us signshops will explain that choice is the clients to skip permit, but risk enforcement. Unless the sign is way way outside of guidelines, I am happy to do it un-permitted, but my installation is "free assistence" to their owner-install. My install costs are built into the sign price. So far in 8 years, one restaurant who had 3 awnings lettered was required to un-letter 2 of them. No other enforcement. Generally signs under 12 sq. ft. do not require permits, so some settle for that. Jobs over $1000, I am more reluctant to go forward without permit, due to degree of clients investment.
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
Glen, I think you are "venting" here in the same way that the customer is venting at you.
Sometimes we all need to vent a little. A little bit of patience is usually rewarded with the customer calming down. Then they realize what they did, and appologize.
If they dont, then charge them extra on their next sign and pay yourself to listen to them.
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
The fines for non-compliance here are heafty, $500 for the installer and $1000 for the business owner. We present that in our discussion. We are always upfront with all the costs involved. With some customer types we give them a price which includes permit, acquisition, sales tax etc. so they are looking at the total but have the details as well. We always charge for aacquistition time, hour minimum and many cities around here require us to return multiple times after application. If a customer wants to install the sign himself, we warn them of the codes and refer them to the city planning dept. Most of those come back, begging us to take care of it for them.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i "enlighten" the customer, to the fact of the "sign police". and then tell them i just make signs, dont install or get permits. this is their job. if they dont get a permit, and the sign cop sees sign...he can take it or fine them. i dont do installs where i have to dig for the same reason, to many underground utilities. this i leave up to the client. did one sign downtown, i drew it up and did a lay out at 24" x 14'(brakets where already there on the building at that size). client went thru permit prceedure(took almost a year) got the permit and they only would allow a 20" x 13"....how picky can ya get. so i had to move a braket...12"!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
I'm with Si on this one. There are places where no enforcement exists. But on the other hand, some places have strict rules and enforce them. I had a shop in Ithaca, NY, home of Cornell University. This is a place of political madness!! You had to get a permit to get a permit!!!! (almost)
Posted by Steve Nuttle (Member # 2645) on :
When a client walks in to order a sign we always bring up the issue of a permit. It is the responsibility of the busines onwer to obtain a permit for their sign. We will help them as much as possible by supplying the square footage, background color, etc. If they don't want to the hassle and want us to apply for them no problem! Price starts at $100.00 plus the cost of the permit. Fortunitley for us, if there is a problem and we installed the sign, we are off the hook. It is the clients problem. I have installed many signs that the client has failed to apply in a timely manner and has ended up being hassled my our town planning deptment. Next thing you know they are calling to get all the info for thier permit. Enforcement to date in Jackson is rather lax but they still like to hassle you.
We have a good relationship with our town planning department and want to keep it that way. It's sometimes a battle. Heck I've rambled enough! Bottom line, if we apply for the permit for the client it starts at $100.00 plus the cost of permits.
Posted by Glen Lemmon (Member # 2865) on :
Hello friends, You have made some very good points. Scooter your probably right. He probably just needed to vent & I was there. Our city Sign Police are cracking down on illegal signage. My sister-in-law is one of the local code enforcement officers, so I've gotten my warnings. There's a battle going on right now over sandwich boards on sidewalks. It seems there's an old law on the books that they can hang a sign on a horse! So now there's a horse on the sidewalk with a sign on it! Funny story. I think in the future I'll just add the cost of permits into the sign and not tell them unless they ask. Thanks again
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
A few years back, we got a new city manager. One of the first things he did was raise the permit fees for signage.
Anyone want to pay $100 to get a permit for a banner? It literally destroyed our banner business.
Also, he tried to raise the permit fees for freestanding signs by 240%. Anyone wanna pay $200 to be able to install a 4x8 sign?
It took us nearly three years to clean up some of the damage he did in a small town of 60k people.
The power to tax is the power to destroy. He was an expert.
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
I've had customers rant about paying sales tax. I wonder if they do it with every single thing they purchase in California? . . .or just the signs.
A friend if mine got caught installing a sign in Pasadena and had to pay a $10 fine and take down the sign. In trying to get a permit for it he went to City Hall 50 times, which spanned over a year. Finally we bootlegged it in anyway and he had to pay another $10 fine and they told him to take it down, but he didn't. End of story. After that we just put them up and pay two $10 fines - they could just say "Give us $20" but that would be too simple. It represents power to the ribbon clerks.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
I just pulled my first permit (for two signs)a few weeks ago. I had to provide a site plan/map, a scale drawing of each sign showing height to to p of sign, to bottom of sign , post depth, distance from right of way, distance to nearest sign,.......blah, blah, and make sure that everything was to code, and fill out some more paperwork. I also had to apply for another permit from the building department. The building department fee was $25, the permit for the smaller sign was about $25 and the larger one $40. I charged the client $150 for my time.
If a client ever balks at that and wants to pull the permit themselves.....I'm gonna say "hep yo sef"! They'll probably be calling me up for the scale drawings and maps.
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Around here the client isn’t allowed to pull their own permit. Only a licensed contractor is able to.
There’s been a lot of fuss and controversy about illegal signs and now the local governments are stepping up enforcement. I hate bureaucracy and the red tape and idiotic demands that are placed. Why did common sense have to go out the window?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Remember what Voltare said. Nothing illustrates it better than Government.
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
Hmm, what WAS it that Voltaire said? Was it "M'seur Starbuck, please to bring me 49 more cups of that French Roast, sil vou plais."
???
[ February 22, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Mike Languein ]
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Permits and codes can be a nightmare. Or they can be a matter of following a defined proceedure. You can tell a lot about a given town's attitude toward business and free enterprise by how they handle permitting and code enforcement.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
"Common sense is not so common." -- Voltaire
Some of the people I have to deal with at City Hall seem to go out of their way to prove it.
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hassle...... priceless.