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Posted by Roger Berry (Member # 3299) on :
 
I'm buying a plotter. I'm buying some
stock. $5000 max. I'm charging $20 an hour
for my time and materials at cost. I own a prime
location...I have no rent to pay. Can't dismiss me as a no-talent peel'n'stick because I have talent. As long as I make $20 an hour I'm happy.

But when I invest in REAL equipment, with REAL
capabilities, and hire staff, then my prices will go up.

Until then, if a sign takes me an hour to design and make, my customer will get it for $20 plus
material at cost.

And no, I won't be out of business in a year's time....that's just wishful thinking.
 

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Posted by dispatch (Member # 1053) on :
 
[Giggle]I won't even say it![/Giggle]
 

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Posted by Glenn Thompson (Member # 1851) on :
 
So your electricity, gas, snow removal and such is not costing you anything? What hapens when you have to redo a job, or better yet redo a job in a years time when you have employees and more overhead. Why leave money on the table? If you start with very cheap, your customers will always expect those prices, even when you have staff and overhead.

Good Luck, you're going to need it.
 

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Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
 
Not quite sure what your intent is by posting your new sideline here. You obviously know that what you plan on doing will only incite arguments and controversy. Is this your intent?

Good luck in your new business venture.
 

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Posted by Glenn Thompson (Member # 1851) on :
 
It's probably snowing there again and his head is snow logged
 

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Posted by Joe Endicott (Member # 628) on :
 
ok.....

I'm not sure what promted this post, but the logic is a bit scewed.
 

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Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
 
Well, you sure arn't going to get any arguement from me. You, yourself are the most qualified to assess exactly what your work is worth. If you are happy with $20.00/Hr. then so be it.

Best of luck to you.
 

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Posted by E. Balch (Member # 3545) on :
 
Profits per hour, great topic.

Of course you mean an average of $20 per hour Profit after all the expenses are covered. I could be happy with that. My problem is that it takes $30k of sales just to break even. The insurance, heat, lights, vehicles, equipment and materials etc. really add up.

ernie
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I sometimes like to check out the "recent posts" link in visitors profile page when I see something strange coming from someone. It sheds a little light on the character of the character. Rogers 5 posts since he joined were all topics he posted to pick our brains for his own betterment, except one post was a reply to keep his own topic going. So, having nothing to offer in participating in helping out on any other topic, Roger has simply been lurking here for 4 months & seems to know what buttons to push if he wants to stir the pot. I don't understand why he would want to stir $#!+ up with the very people that used to share information so freely when he had to ask our help. I guess Roger is so full of himself that his brilliant business plan has his road to riches is paved so far out in front of him that burning bridges behind him is of no consequence.

See ya later bud, don't let the door hit yourass on the way out.

Here's an excerpt from O.P.'s response to Roger's first post here, still relevant I think...

quote:

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yes this used to be a "lucretive" business, back in the day......when talent and a brush where all you needed. but with so many trying to make money in this business, the opposite effect has taken place. all the new places start up with give away prices, ex. MAGNETICS, $39.00, 2'X6' BANNERS $25,
TRUCK DOOR LETTERING $45, 18" X 24" CORPLAST YARD SIGNS $10. all this does is make it harder for anyone, including the new place to make any money. then the buying public will remember these low prices and if you try to sell them at higher prices, you get.."well dum dum signs down the street does them for way less."
when i painted only, set of truck doors was $100, and if the customer got them done this week, he usually gave me a tip, 2x6 banner painted, $70-$100, depending on detail. 18"x24" sign(was no corecrap then)was painted on alum., $45 for one side. back then gas was less then a $1 a gallon, cars new where under $10,000.00, and to be in the sign business didnt require $100,000 worth of computers, printers, plotters, vinyl, and corplast.
also you didnt have everybody with a little expendable income buying a plotter to letter their stockcars, their trucks, and do the church signs for free.
as for longevity, us old guys will die doin signs, and i cant tell you how many "quicky sticky" shops ive seen go in one month and gone 6 months later.
not to detere you from doing this but just to bring some reality into your world on how it really is in the sign business from a 1 man operation.

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Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
 
Your post is just as funny as the ones I read from people here who claim to get thousands for each and every sign they do.

At least you are honest.
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
Hook, line and sinker...


Good luck in your new biz, Roger.


Cheryl, LOL.. I guess what they say is true.. When you hear it said enough or say it to yourself enough times, your brain starts to think it's true!
 

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Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
 
Heh....yeah Mike.

And Like, I am going to buy a furniture shop and sell each piece for cost just because I am a smart ass....
 

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Posted by Robert Beverly (Member # 1907) on :
 
Heads
I normally stay away from such shallow posts as this but I truly have to say thank you to Rodger because:

You will help drive all of the other riff raff away as well ...and only then will people see the difference between the true professional signmaker and the wannabee's.

My honest reflection will be that with the dramatic decrease of costs to get "in" as you have stated...that you will have lost not only the extended family that will wind up being your client base plus the interest you could have made on the 5k spent...but you will help get rid of those like you(and franchises) who consider this craft to be an easy side job.

Then folks will see the "wedge" I speak of often in describing the difference between a true Letterhead and a wannabe.

Thanks again and go get em tiger!
 

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Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
 
$20 Canadian is like $13 US.
I'm in. Have a FedEx account?
 

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Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
So you have talent, you say.
Oh boy, as the church lady would say, now isn’t that special.
You know what I do when somebody comes around looking for work whe wants me to pay them hard earned money and claims to have talent?
I tell them they are a dime a dozen, and that I take perseverance over talent every time.

With what you have in mind for yourself that’s exactly what it’s going to take. Perseverance, midnight oil , 7 in 7 and 16 in 24.
You will end up losing money on every job, just about. I would rather make 20 dollars on one little job (which is not dollars by the hour by the way, as others so ably have shown you) than 5 dollars each on 4 little equal jobs. One is maybe 30 min. of work, the other would be 2 and half hours with interruptions of taking on more of the same little jobs because you are underbidding everybody and for a little while the tire kicking public will come to you while you enrage the real business people who also make signs and who’s bread and butter you are temporarily infringing upon.

I wish you well, but I’ve been in business 25 years and have seen people with attitudes like yours come and go. Unless they woke up and smelled the sting of the losses and corrected their pricing structure there was not really a future for them.

I invite you to keep hanging around. Keep your ears and eyes open, and the rest shut for a while. Let us know how it’s going in about six months, if exhaustion has not overtaken you.
Good Luck.
 

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Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
 
I don't know what it is about this business, but it seems that some people feel the need to experience a type of ascetic sign-monk, starving artist period before either going broke or wising up. Using your own logic, Roger, if you're "happy" at $20 an hour, wouldn't you be "ecstatic" at $30 an hour, and downright "delirious" at $40 ?
 

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Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
 
I'm very new to this website, but man, what accurate responses. Just this morning, my son was asking why I do all the hard jobs. I tried to explain to him about self improvment, making yourself able to do jobs that others can't. But really, what I do are the odd jobs that others don't. Knoxville's not a very big town but last time I counted, there were in the neighborhood of 72 sign shops,those being the ones in the phone book. I'm mobile, I climb, I paint huge R.R. equipment in a rough neighborhood and whatever other job the vinyl shops don't do. I also don't even keep up (knowledge-wise) with what the other shops are charging, because it's all bizarre. It seems that Mr. Thompson's reply was bull'seye, about other expenses. I don't want to get you guys irate at ME, but even I charge $35 an hour, and i'm in the "backwoods" of Appalachia. This is a GREAT site, my life's slogan is "I need all the help I can get". I think I'm at the right place. Jim
 

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Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
ROGER DODGER....OVER AND OUT.....
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 
Well
I only live 45 minutes away from Rodger.
I guess I'll never be able to sell anything in Truro N.S.
But if you ever get the chance Rodger come visit me and I'll tell you about Airbrushing $1.00 a minute or the cost of carving a sign per sq ft.
or handlettering a truck,building,or the design cost to vectorize someones logo etc.

But with your shop rate, maybe I will start putting in some time around Truro to drop off some business cards.
Picking up some of the cream of the crop jobs.

Good Luck to you and thanks for your tip!
I drop in sometime when I'm in the area.
 

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Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
Hey when I first started back in say um 1993 I charged 20 bucks an hour, I wasnt worth much more if that. But I didn't have a plotter or stock worth 5K. I lived at home and only had to worry about going out on the weekends. So Roger all I can say is good luck.

You obviously are confident with your business plan and proud to be just another soul that id so smart that he believes he can get all the jobs by undercutting.

DOnt give up your furniture job either, seems you could do well with that business mentality in that feild too.
 

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Posted by Roger Berry (Member # 3299) on :
 
Well, that certainly gets things going.

I'm buying a Summa and by doing my own signs the
machine will pay for itself within a week, judging by what the "lowest priced" signmaker in this town charged me, and I gave him ready-made
copy to boot!(Coreldraw 11). Once I learned the
price of materials and what he was charging me, I'm never again buying signs...I'm selling them!

I have an empty storefront with a tenant in the flat above paying all the expenses, so no, I don't have much in the way of expenses. And yes, I'm going to happily undercut, partly out of vengeance. :-)

But if the venture grows and I buy a thermal or solvent printer and router, then I'll make money on those speciality items...but not on plain
vinyl signs...they're the leaders.

I design all my own ads and signs and they look great. Certainly better than the lacklustre signs Anthony produces around here.

And Mr. Snyder, a low dollar doesn't mean anything. Are you aware that the fundamentals of the Canadian economy are actually better than those of the American? And I'm quite happy to have the benefits of a pseudo-American culture without being hated around the world. If there's one thing that immediately starts a bonding conversation amoung strangers at a pub in any of the dozen countries or so I've been to, it's ****ting on Americans. :-)) And America just keeps doing a great job flaming that hatred, now more than ever.

Although it is nice to be able to take advantage
of our proximity to the Great Beast. We spend nothing on our military because who's going to attack Canada, being so close?

Hmmm, I must visit life in easy Hawaii 5-0, but not until that North Korean thing calms down. Makes to easy a target. :-)
 

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Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
I have edited this post because I just reread Rogers latest post and am just shaking my head in disbeleif.

Man, Some people's kids.

[ February 15, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
 

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Posted by Roger Berry (Member # 3299) on :
 
Oh, reminds me, I remember my first time taking the train from Finland to Russia, an American woman was in the same compartment, as well as a few chatty Russians. She kept apologizing and apologizing about being American. "We're not all bad. We're not all stupid. Please don't hate me" Her words, not mine.
She was quite nervous when the Russian soldiers took her (all all of our) passport(s). Poor girl.
I bet at that time she would have loved to have my passport! :-))
 

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Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
Roger you make a great example!

See you label americans as idiots and peices of sh*t based on the actions of a few.

In Contrast by your actions, I should label Canadians as unintelligent, trouble making neanderthol business minded, 4 year olds.

But we have a whole bunch of Awesome Canadian brothers and sisters on this board, and for that I can plainly see that you are the minority in that Great Country.

At first you comments about the US ****ed me off but then I considered the source from which it came from and gently chuckled on my way to the shop.

Roger you offer no positive input to Letterville from my veiw, so I bid you farewell, go back to your furniture / Sign world for you have now burned any chance of a bridge.

[ February 15, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
 

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Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
 
Bob Rochon: Sorry you deleted your post. I'm glad I saw it; you had nailed the situation.

Unless we see a little attitude and arrogance adjustment in him, your invitation and suggestion would have been the only way he could be useful to us.

If this keeps up....hold the thought....
 

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Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
Myra,

I thought about leaving it and your right, I said it and I should have left it so here it is:

Roger,

You should come to Mass Meyem letterhead meet in May, we need a new Jack A** for pin the tail on the donkey.
 

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Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
 
Please allow me to be one of the first to say "WELCOME BACK TO LETTERVILLE, KENNY".

What the heck is this crap! Any moron can buy a plotter and some materials and knock out signs. Many of them are IN THE SIGN BUSINESS. It looks as if some of them are also in the furniture business. If you really want to get into this business I say FINE, welcome aboard. Come to Letterville and ask questions and learn... share your knowledge with us.

BUT, to come in here and BASH the entire industry because you were unhappy with your local guy is nonsense.

Many of the people here actually take a little pride in themselves and their work. Let me see if I can figure this out. You are a businessman with too much time on your hands. You are struggling to sell furniture, profits are not where you want them to be so now you have to cut some corners and watch every penny. You have always been a cheap so-and-so and don't trust anyone... so when the sign guy gives you a price for the "professional" layout that you designed, you are appalled. YOU spent time designing and thinking about your ad and all this guy has to do is cut it and stick it to some kind of cheap substrate. Instead of spending time networking in your community or taking a course in PEOPLE SKILLS, you decide to take out all of your frustrations on THE ENTIRE SIGN INDUSTRY when in fact you should be working with a sign professional and a lot of other people to develop a marketing plan for your failing furniture business.

I am not impressed.
 

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Posted by Mike Murray (Member # 840) on :
 
$20 an hour, what a waste of time. I can lose money sitting on the couch doing nothing, why work to lose it? When are we going to see some of these $20 an hour masterpieces on the portfolio page. If you're as good as you say, don't be shy, get the pictures up. I don't usually get involved in posts like this, but this one just burns my a**!! Why don't you sit and try to learn hand painting on your own (which is how I did it), and maybe you'll have more of an appreciation of what this business is about, and realize that sign DESIGNERS and ARTISTS are worth a lot more than sign MAKERS. I hope that some of the other vinyl only people don't take that the wrong way, it is NOT meant as a slam towards you, unless you have the same attitude and mentality that Mr. Berry has, then you can take it how you want, I could give a big fat s***!!!
 

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Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
 
All this classic post needs to round it off is guns, politics, and religon.
Hey Rodger, how much for any Mission Furniture? I have a large Letterhead Meet here in Minnesota in 2005, could you donate some furniture for door prizes? (Make sure the tables have 4 legs. And the sofas have all the old pizzas and soiled condoms removed.) Subway Furniture? Is that like old benches and stools from subways? Or are they all formica yellow booth's from Subway Restaurants?
have at um kids! hahaha GO GET EM BOB!
 

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Posted by Steve Barba (Member # 431) on :
 
Posting pictures is really easy, (even I figgured it out). Lets see all this wonderful talent that you posses. I'm sure that we'll all learn something.

Do us all a favor as well, keep your political views to yourself. I have also been around the world, and never have I heard of, ANYWHERE, an American apologizing for being American.

.....what a dumass.... LOLOLOL

Good luck stupid.
 

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Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
 
Furniture sales must be lousy.. sure sounds like a salesman with too much time on his hands.

"the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence"
 

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Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
 
I guess we just encountered a real A-Hole Canadian....
Live in Maine close to N.S. most of my life, toured Europe and lived in Brazil 2 years.... it don't mater where you live.... just how you live.
 

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Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
 
I'm going to be passing thru Truro soon, I think I'll drop in and See his operation. You know he might have something there.. he may be just a bit smarter than the rest of you guys, he can certainly get you going. he he
 

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Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
 
Roger, you're starting out the same way I did and I'm doing well after 20 years in business. I fact you have a better plan than I did. It would be fair to add I did make a few changes after the first couple of months, starvation is a good motivator.
 

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Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
 
He won't last a year. Let's see, the average billable hours in a day (after handling quotes, working the phone, eating lunch, billing and receivables, cleaning the shop, etc. etc. etc.) are around four hours for me. That's $80.00. Now, subtract even the most meger over head and I come up with about $6.50 an hour. I'd rather work at McDonald's and get a 401 K, insurance and scheduled hours! LOL
 

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Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
 
My guess is Roger has a wife who makes the 'real' bucks. Right Roger?
 

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Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
 

quote:

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And Mr. Snyder, a low dollar doesn't mean anything.

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It means I could sub all of my work to you and bring home the same amount of money without doing any labor.

quote:

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And I'm quite happy to have the benefits of a pseudo-American culture without being hated around the world.

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quote:

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Are you aware that the fundamentals of the Canadian economy are actually better than those of the American?

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Now you're an economist to, "eh?"

quote:

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Although it is nice to be able to take advantage of our proximity to the Great Beast. We spend nothing on our military because who's going to attack Canada, being so close?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Snyder:
What is there to gain by attacking Canada?

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"The United States of Canada"... that has a nice ring to it, dontyathink? It's not like they have any military to keep us from taking over either, cause they rely on the US to protect them.

**Edit** Man I thought Canadians would have thicker skins from living in all that cold weather! Only meant it to burn one person but as Steve says, he won't be here anymore.


He does have a point though.. people in other countries DO hate the US.. it's called jealousy.. and they would sing a different tune if the US abolished ALL international trade. The only reason the US imports goods is the cheap labor found overseas and across the border allows cheaper costs for everyone, but we have all the resources to build the same products. Money talks.

By the way, wholesale furniture is SO cheap, even discount stores can mark it up 300% and still undercut everyone else.. the furniture trade's dirty little secret! of course you have to warehouse that stuff so sitting on inventory can be expensive.. I guess having 40 rolls of vinyl is cheap in comparison.

Just goes to prove you can cut your nuts off always trying to be the cheap guy.

[ February 17, 2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
 

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Posted by Bill Biggs (Member # 18) on :
 
My Father,
Is rolling over in his grave right now.
I'm Sure!From the Great Depression, through
two world wars and several other conflicts
America has been there to help. Including
rebuilding countries and allowing freedom
all over the world.
I have never met an American that was not proud of his country, except for the 'movie star types"
that live in lala land.
Good Luck in your new business, and hang on to the
furniture store, you're gonna need it.
Bill
 

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Posted by Lee McKee (Member # 3533) on :
 
I bet he does not even own a paint brush. Darn vinyl jockies! (with love) You buy a plotter and Presto! your an expert. One day soon people will realize the limitions that poor signage puts on a business and then what are you going to do? And what about the art? Not just the design, layout, and application. I mean the ART.
By the way Rodger, I'm new here too and I have enough class to know that the people here are good people. Don't pee in thier cornflakes.
 

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Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
 
HAHAHAHAHA.....WHO REALLY CARES WHAT ROGER-HOLE DOES!? IF HE MAKES A LIVING, HE'LL HAVE TO WORK HIS BUTT OFF DOING IT, OR FOLD. I THINK HE SHOULD CHARGE 30% ABOVE COST SO HE CAN MAKE THE BIG BUCKS!
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
I'm far more offended by Mike's comments. I don't know Roger...sure never met him in real life. Right about now, I'm wondering what my pal Mike really thinks about me and other Canadian Letterheads. See how it gets started? Grrrrr.



[ February 15, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
 

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Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
 
We have a BARBER here in Prescott that does SIGNS on the side......his intent was to undercut everybody......after a year, he's still cutting hair, NOT vinyl!
Hey ROGER-HOLE......in the end, the customer wants SERVICE & VALUE, with PRICE being a distant 3rd! WAKE-UP!!!!!
 

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Posted by Lee McKee (Member # 3533) on :
 
Mike is the other side of the U.S. we were discussing on "that other thread" Steve. Just ignore him, He most likely hasn't ate lunch yet or somthing like that. I'm sure he didn't mean it THAT way anyway. We Americans get crabby if we skip lunch you know. We wouldn't want to take over Canada anyhow...It's just too cold. All the smart people in the States live in the South where it's nice and warm. Carribian Beware!
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
yeah Mike, hurry on back after lunch to get that edited. I know Mike wouldn't mean to let that remark stand "out of context", but even spoken to a nationalist idiot trouble maker, it still bothered me too. (My dad's Canadian & I always considered myself "half" Canadian in my own way)

Steve, as for "letting him push our buttons" if he was standing in the corner of a live meet shouting inflamatory remarks, I don't see how ignoring him completely would help. Some ignorant fools like this guy, may not even know what a dumass he is without a little enlightenment from reaping the responses to the disharmony he has sown. But thanks for showing him the door...good call on that!

[ February 15, 2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
 

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Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
 
This guy is on to something: face it, the sign industry is way overflowing with "talented -er... funiture store owners", and the likes. So why not beat em at their own game.
I already have a resale number, so I just called a furniture buddy who gave me a couple phone numbers of wholesalers, set up a couple of accounts and voila!

I'M NOW IN THE FURNITURE BUSINESS!!!

The beauty of it is I don't have any overhead and I can easily pay for all my own furniture with just one sale! I don't have to make much of a profit, just as long as I can under price the other stores in town! (You wouldn't believe the markup on sofas.)

BTW, We did this with Music equipment a couple of years ago, we were spending a ton of money on equipment, so we went into a side business selling Music and Pawn stuff.

(I guess we "stupid Americans" have never thought about the "free enterprise system" -oh wait, I forgot, that's one of the fundamental concepts that the rest of world wishes they had!)
 

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Posted by J.G. Kurtzman (Member # 1736) on :
 
Roger; take a closer look at what your intending to do, are you shooting from the hip? My ex wife was from Truro, would you like to borrow her bifocals she left behind when she jumped out of the bedroom window when I came home unexpecedly on that night of infamy.....He also left one shoe behind which I have had bronzed and use it for a gas pedal on my big block 46 chevy pick up truck.

J.G. Kurtzman
 

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Posted by Robb Lowe (Member # 2121) on :
 
Please, please tell you guys KNOW this (and others like it) is just a TROLL to get your motor running. Sheesh.
 

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Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
i cant belive this post has gotten to 2PAGES!!!!!
mikey as for the canadian "dis" job....think you need to rephrase it....if it was ment to be funny, you need to make known.
 

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Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
 
Yea Mikey, if the Great USA Did'nt "force" their "Opinion" that we "Canadians" don't "Need" or "Should" have our own Airforce with our advanced, superior, "Canadian Made" Delta Wing Super Sonic Fighter, of the 1950's known as the "Avro Arrow". Then maybe we would'nt "Need" The protection of the United States, from all the countries who Hate us, from being the War mongers that we are. LOL Said with "Toungue in Cheek"
 

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Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Well, apparently some of you don't know a good thing when you see it. At those prices, we should all farm our work out to Roger. And while he's busting his butt making nothing, we can be out doing what we enjoy most.

I'm heading out to do some snorkeling in Burmuda. Who's with me?

Its good to be a Capitalist.
 

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Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
 
Well said Glenn. Thats exactly what I meant in my post.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
Since Roger is no longer allowed to post & therefore will not be able to further stir the pot, lets get into a nationalistic North American pi$$ing match among friends.
 

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Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
How about a mean game of horseshoes instead?
 

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Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
 
I love horeshoes, ok lets go!
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
now you're talking! I got game... for that.
 

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Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
 
How bout skins game $10.00 a hole! Meet you on the first tee.
 

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Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
 
Hey, Bob!

Loser pays green fees, OK? I have a 163 handicap... LOL!
 

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Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
 
No fair Bruce! You have any idea how much it cost me to get good at golf?

In the past seven years I've shot well over 1,600 rounds of golf and bought three sets of clubs not to mention food and drinks. I have to earn it all back somehow even if it means hustling a little
 

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Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Who's gonna caddy?
 

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Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
 
Glenn we don't use caddys' down here. We do it the old fashioned hard way and have to drive our own bag around on a golf cart. Makes for a tougher day on the course than having somebody else carry your things for you.
 

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Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Drive our own golf carts?!! That's barbaric!

I bet Tiger Woods doesn't drive his own cart.
 

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Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
 
Nope but we dont get paid millions to walk either.
 

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Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Well thats not fair!
 

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Posted by Brian (Member # 39) on :
 
in the future I think the best response to such stupid "fishing" posts would be to ignore them altogether. Let em starve...
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
The best thing that could come out of this post would be a discussion on determining an hourly rate. I can tell you from experience that it is an eye opening experience. Mike jackson, Chip Carter and Jeff Cahill have done some excellant articles on this subject.

Insulting Roger won't solve anything. Let's use this as an opportunity to really look into this money issue. Bob Stephens has some valuable insight on this subject. Here's an article he did for us back in 1998.

www.letterhead.com/articles/bob_stephens/

More to come on this subject, but each of us needs to break out a calculator and pencil. The first thing to determine is what you need to bring home each month to support your lifestyle and family. What are your housing costs, groceries, heat, electricity, insurance, clothing, etc, etc, costs? At the end of this exercise you need to know what you need,as well as what you would like to make a year. We'll use this as a starting point to determine what your shop rate HAS to be.
 

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Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
 
Roger certainly knows what he wants to do and being a free country he pretty much can do as he pleases.

We certainly don't have to agree with him or do as he does... that's our right.

I know from experience that even with minimal overhead if I want to earn $20 per hour I need to charge at least double or triple that that.

In our little operation I charge out at $100 per hour if I am billing that method. That doesn't mean that I earn $800 per day however. Even if I manage 8 out of 8 hours at my desk - not all my time is billable. I find even on productive days I can't charge all my time to customers, it wouldn't be fair.

On quoted jobs I like to do considerably better than an hourly rate as I am also taking on risk. If something goes wrong I have to make up the difference.

And on what I do bill I personally only get to keep what is left over after ALL the company expenses are paid.

The company needs some money left in reserve to pay the ongoing bills, insurance, tools, new programs, equipment, carry inventory and especially pay taxes. I hope you make enough money to pay taxes. Our company owns and maintains a top quality vehicle, tool trailer and even a travel trailer to use on our out of town worksites, or as an office locally on sites.

The company paid for my new camera, and purchased a new computer and a bunch of other stuff this past year too. The business even paid for our recent trip to Florida.

It will also build me new shop and studio when the time comes... all legitimate and worthy expenses.

When all is said and done I want to be well paid for my creative skills that I have spend decades developing. I'm 49 years old now, and I if I don't start capitalizing on my hard earned skills now, WHEN WILL IT HAPPEN???

My time is valuable to me and to my family too.

And my dreams for the future won't come cheap.

Don't sell yourselves short.

-dan
 

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Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
 
You are just the guy I've been looking for...

Whenever I find a shop like yours I send them all the "crap" work ...it keeps them busy and out of my hair for all the high profit good work.

Not only that but I can "sub' out to them and sometimes even get a shop discount rate because I'm in the trade.

Sounds like nirvana to me ...

Keep up the good work...oh and what ever you do don't raise your profits or your goals, you'd only have to compete and after all why would you want to do that?

Are you sure this will leave you any time (or enough money) to get to a live meet?
 

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Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
 
Karyn- I love your answers.

Mike- You been reading to many Tom Clancy books...we don't "rely" on anyone to protect us...
Let us keep this above the belt, and the next time someone posts like this, just ignore him (except Karyn-haha go get'em Karyn!!). The worst thing we can do is legitimize his inflammatory drivel by replying!! If a bonehead falls out of a tree and no-one is there to hear him, did he still make a sound?
 

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Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
 
I know someone that spent MILLIONS of dollars outfitting a company to do large format digital. Came from a totally different industry with the same ideas as this "sign-guy"--
"When I saw how much mark-up the local sign guy was charging, I figured there was a killing to be made in this business...."
That seems to be a philosophy with these start-ups sooooo often. They think that the cost of the raw materials goes up ten-fold for a selling price, taking no account of;
a) Quality
b) Reputation
c) Quality (again!)
d) Layout and Design
e) Physical work time
f) Paying heat, light, hydro, equipment lease
g) Overall skill and reputation

I know that I don't do any business with someone who has lame signage! I agree----if I had a job come thru the door I didn't want to do, I'd gladly send the customer down the road to a so called professional like this.

To quote Steve;
"I just got off the phone with Roger. It was a very brief conversation, but he is for real. His main biz is discount furniture."

Discount is the key word here, ain't it???

[ February 17, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Ted Nesbitt ]
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
Ted, I agree with your abc's of what those lame"discount" guys forget, but one comment many of replies here made was:

quote:

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I agree----if I had a job come thru the door I didn't want to do, I'd gladly send the customer down the road to a so called professional like this.

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On Steve's thread for figuring out our hourly rate, I read this great link he posted by Bob Stevens. Bob made a good point that I think is rather obvious to many of us, but somewhat contrary to replies to this Roger bozo in question. There are "discount" shops that are professional, although maybe not always quite of the letterhead persuasion. The referrals we make are a reflection on us, & some folks that may need a discount job at this point, may really want a higher quality sign from you when they can afford it, so be careful with your referrals.
 

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Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
 
Point taken Doug--anything we do in this biz does have a direct reflection on us and our companies.

My 'down the road' analogy was meant more in a "seprents tongue in cheek" sort of way.
 

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Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
 
there's nothing wrong with $20/hour. on some days i'd be happy at that. that's $40K/year -- if you have no expenses -- and MORE if you're working more than 40 hours/week.

of coures, you gotta charge for time you spent:
on phone with customer
showing font list to customer
calling customer back for check
writing the invoice
in the bathroom
calling the supplier
chatting with the driver
on the Bulletin Board chatting about the sign.

So that 2' x 4' "Open from 8 til 5" corroplast sign only costs the customer...

$2 materials
$80.00 labor (4 hours)
===
$82 -- hey, that's a deal! its$2 less than the sign pricing guide price.
 

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Posted by Shirley Carron (Member # 2446) on :
 
E'nuff said!
 

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Posted by Brian Diver (Member # 1552) on :
 
We have a similar situation in my town where one of the biggest Commercial real estate saleman has gone around beating up every sign shop on prices. He has ****ed off everyone to the point where nobody will make signs for him, so he opened up his own shop.

Ahhh... There's nothing like the smell of fresh changable letters in the morning like on his shop (main copy) - need a sign anyone?
 

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Posted by Shirley Carron (Member # 2446) on :
 
Steve,

You are correct in that, if anything good is to come from this thread it is that we should really be looking at our own, individual situations.

I took the time to download the Jeff Cahill article, and had photocopied the Bob Stephens article in the past(I keep it in my sketchbook/binder for easy accessibility)both
of which I consider good sound advice, from "those in the know".

Our time is much better spent educating our customers on quality of design and our final products and the like,rather than someone who thinks they can jump into this trade on the same level as many of the people here.

I wish Roger-whoever-he-is..good luck.
I once made $5.00 signs from my basement(no rent,low overhead)worked 22 hour days, projected lettraset lettering on the back of vinyl (in reverse) and hand cut-out each and every individual letter ('cause I couldn't afford a plotter).

I love what I do, I love this business!
I just want to be better at it!
Thanks for the links!
 

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