OK, still tryin to figure out all the terms used here in the vinyl sign biz and I'm still looking for a vinyl cutter.. Now, over at another board that was referred to me, the following appears:
I HAVE A 4-b WITH A-B SWITCH AND A 30" s750 plotter. Will take $1,000. Very good condition.
What is a 4-b?? It seems to be quite popular.. And also, what are you using a "plotter" for.. I'm from the engineering side of things and we use plotters with AutoCad to plot drawings.. In fact if I can make AutoCad talk to one of these plotters, I may just use that for my drawing package.. Can't get better vectors than that I guess..
Any help is greatly appreciated..
Paul Jordan Anchorage, AK
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
A plotter is a vinyl cutter in this business.
A 4b with switchbox and a 30" S750 is an old Gerber 15" lettering machine which today can be hooked up to a PC with and LMK card (which it probably has), and a switch box enables you to drive an S750 30" plotter too, the S750 being a "dumb" plotter using the brain of the 4B for steering it in X and Y axis.
THese are older reliable machines cutting at about 4inches a second in a straight line compared to over 3ft per second on newer machines.
You will be relying on 15" and 30" sprocketed material instead of having the variation that you have with a friction machine.
I have a Sprint 2 and S750 here with a switchbox together with a Summa T series which we use daily here with Gerber software.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I wouldnt use AutoCAD for your design work, it's really not suited for artistic stuff although it WILL drive cutters that use HPGL and have their own drivers instead of relying on drivers in sign programs.
I started off using AutoCAD to drive my Roland when I first got it, because it's what I had access to at the time and it worked. At the time I was not in business, I was using it for cutting paint masks for my personal projects so I just dealt with it and its limitations.
Now I use CorelDRAW and Illustrator for design and both programs can drive my roland plotter directly.
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
Keep researching before you make any purchases.
Pick up and read some industry mags along with reading all you can from the web. There are enormous amounts of variables to consider.
The old 4b/s750 plotters are in my opinion obsolete, though they still get work done they are not efficient enough to be considered viable in light of the low cost entry level machines that are available. They constrain you to set sized tractor fed material creating unnecessary waste.
Of course old machinery is problematic anyway.
A vinyl cutter is a plotter almost identical in form to what an architect or engineer might use to create plans / drawings, the exception is that in addition to drawing with a pen, cutters can also hold a blade, control precisely the downforce needed to cut silhouette type decals from vinyl.
Autocad, while most likely able to send drawings to your vinyl cutter would not be efficient in comparison to a sign software package.
Try to stay away from the more proprietary systems though they are capable in many respects, just not worth the dollars in my opinion.
I have found that peoples often vehement opinions about both hardware and software are biased toward what they themselves are most familiar with and learned first. Do as much research as possible ! Form your own educated opinions without ignoring those of others.
(Caviat Emptor)
Hope I helped ya',
Steve
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I have to agree for the most part to Steve and Mikes comments. AutoCad is great for it's use, but as for designing graphics, I think your way better off with Illustrator with CadTools or Corel. If all you are going to do is cut vinyl, Cocut is a good solution, if you are going to get into more dimensional work, or large format printing, or high production, Flexi-sign, SignLab or Omega are good production solutions, BUT! since they are proprietory, I would save as .eps files so you can open them in most graphics programs out there. I would stick to designing and setting up your production in Illustrator or Corel.
As far as the hardware, the 4b had it's time, it was a great tool, but with all the other options out there, I don't think for a newbie, it is the way to go. The Gerber 4b has been around 20 some years, that is ancient! Repair and maintenence is as much as a new plotter and since it's that old it is relativley obsolete. I have used a 4B with and without a card, and I have to say it is slow, finicky, and cuts marginally. I would look at Graphtec or Summa. With a plotter you can cut vinyl, make paper patterns for just about anything, install patterns and sandblast mask.
As Steve says, opinions do vary, look carefully, read a lot, by the way, Im a Mac and PC Graphic Designer, I use Illustrator and CadTools to design in, output in Flexi, I also do drafting in AutoCad 2000 when the job requires it, but usually draft in Illustrator. I also have SignPost, Magisign, Gerber G.A., Corel and Freehand. I'm an environmental graphic designer, but make signs as a hobby and for extra money.
Rick
Posted by PaulJordan CaddService (Member # 3630) on :
Lot's of good information here, thanks a ton.. I too am mainly in this endeavor to make extra money and because I enjoy working with graphics.. AutoCad brings home the bacon, I'm just tryin to get it smoked once in a while..
So what does everyone think of these Stika plotters?? Are they worth the effort for a weekend mainly vinyl business??
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I just read your post on SignWeb and SignIndustry, if your looking to just get into swapmeet/show stuff, I guess any ol' thing will do. Most here do serious signage, even on the weekend. If your looking for cheap, you'll find it in the other boards. Or just go to a swapmeet and look at what they are using. That should give you a clue. If your interested in "real" sign design you've come to the right place, but some here get a little miffed at the cheap "quickie stickie" good luck though, I have to tell you, cutting someone elses stolen Calvin designs and corporate logos gets boring real fast. I suggest doing it the right way, take it some what serious, you alredy have Corel 7 as you said in another post, get a good plotter to get your feet wet, but believe me, there are plenty of guys doing the same thing you want to get into. Think a little bigger. Respectfully, Rick
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
i think the MONEY in the sign business is not made by cutting things. the money is in designing things or sticking things on.
my suggestion is to use a wholesale vendor to do your cutting for a few months. order up cut letters or graphics from somebody (Mary Ellens Letters and Gregory are both known in the industry) or even from a local sign shop, and see what works, what sells.
a local sign shop should be willing to cut you a deal if you're buying enough (its all stuff they can cut in their down time, i'm guessing).
that way you can figure what you like, what sells, and what sort of equipment you'll need. If you're only doing little stuff, you'll find that the cost of the plotter is peanuts compared to all the different kinds and colors of vinyl you might need to stock. OR, you might find that everything you do could be done on a 12" wide Stika with a roll of red and a roll of blue.
Posted by PaulJordan CaddService (Member # 3630) on :
Hold on a sec Rick Chavez, my post on the signweb was humorous to say the least.. I basically said that if that guy finds a cutter for $300, hook me up too!! I know this isn't going to be a cheap thing to do once I get deeper into it but, I don't want to go out and spend $10,000 on plotters and vinyl and tape and not be able to pay for it right away.. There are several large sign companies here in the Anchorage area and trying to compete with them would be ludicrous. I want to start small and I WANT to do the "swap meet" types of jobs so I can get out and meet people and possibly get bigger and better jobs from them. I was an engraver for three years as a part time job for the Air Force and I enjoyed working with people more than anything.. This kind of work will get me back into that arena.. Everyone here seems to be more than helpful except for the rub I got from you. But, your words and your opinion are noted..
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Re-reading my post, after your response, I can see where you might get the idea that I was ripping on you, I wasn't, the problem with this sort of communication is that it lacks emotion, given at the right time. My post was to provoke thought, about what there is to get into in this business, not to pre-judge your motivation. Please except my apology if I offended you, that was not my intention. Many here have stated (including myself) that "swapmeet type of work, is not signage, and not design, can it be an outlet for bigger work?, it depends on if your up to bigger work, many here have done this for many many years, what I as mentioning is that with this much experience here you can do a lot more than just be another person with a vinyl cutter. My comment on Calvin images is that the use of such graphics is illegal, and many of those graphics violate copyright laws, I mentioned that because too many go into it blindly only to get bit in the arse, that was my point. As for my previous post, that was helpful too, or did you forget about that one so quickly. As always take things as they come, there is good information here, if you don't want to listen to bad as well as the good, what are you gonna learn? I have learned more from mistakes (mine as well as others) than my successes. I hope we can communicate in a civil manner, as I know that if you make a considerable investment of time and money into this, maybe I can learn from you too. Rick
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
I have been making signs in Sweden for 11 years, I would have maybe agreed about chucking out the 4B/Sprint S750 combo wheN I bought my new Summa Sign Pro T series plotter with opos, but I didn't, all 3 are hooked up here the Summa does all the shop work, the Sprint contour cuts all my Edge work, and the S750 is loaded with paper and does all our pounce patterns....obselete?...NO, just slower, but have NEVER let me down. I love my Summa but there coming to calibrate it next monday because it messes up all the time cutting sandblast resist, a problem I never had with my Gerber machines. If your working on your own, how fast can you weed the stuff in comparison to cutting at 1m sec or whatever.
Take your time, look around, there are lots of trade ins, and even if you cut swap meet stuff...everybody even here started somewhere...Good luck to you.
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
i am one of the low tech shops in my area.(one man show) i still run a 4-B with early gerber composer software.(vector)
i use the tools i have as such... just tools. my tools work to make patterns, paint mask, sandblast stencil. slow but sure.
other technology, i sub out to shops that can afford it.
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