I am trying to see if I am in the ball park for some lettering on a box truck.
The truck sides are 9.5'x 4.5' for the area he wanted lettering.
The rear door he wanted lettering in a 15" x 5' area.
The total area for the side vinyl is around 4' x 8'
I provided two options. OPTION "A" (I know it's ugly but it's what he wanted!). I said $400.23 before tax. Is that close?
OPTION "B" (I tried to upsell, I don't think I did a very good job but it was quick!). I said $740.23 before tax. How about this one?
I didn't get the job. My local competitor told him $250. That can't possibly be correct can it? They sell everything that way. They sell crap but their parking lot is always full of cars.
I used Estimate for the quote.
Thanks!
[ January 27, 2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Amy,
Busy does not always equate to being profitable. Big, big difference. Remember the words of the late Bert Rosenkrantz... "I would rather do one $100.00 job than ten $10.00 jobs..."
For our shop, your prices would seem a little low and your competitor's price is right off the map. We compete against the very same issues here just as I am sure everyone else does, too.
Don't sweat it, Kiddo...
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Hey, thanks Bruce! No sweat here. I'm sticking to my guns. I actually thought I was coming in a little low but compared to everyone else in town I'm way high!!
I'll just keep doing sandblasted signs! They can have the vinyl and work themselves to death for pennies!!
Posted by Mark Neurohr (Member # 2470) on :
I'm with Bruce Amy!!
That's a lot of truck you'd be doing the advertising on! You might even be a little on the low side?? Stick to your guns girl!! There will always be someone else around to do the job for less. Get paid for what it's worth or pass on the job till you do! We've seen you stuff, you desirve it!
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Amy,
We just did a construction trailer about the same size and about the same amount of copy. We were closer to $700. Still this might seem too little for some shops, but the competition is fierce and these have been slow times, meaning shops are lowballing just to keep from going crazy. After all, their theory is: if it seems like you are busy, you must be making money, right? hahahahaahah.... Screw that theory!
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
Assuming that you're using HP vinyl, and if I fit the top design into a 4' x 8' area, pricing at individual letters plus installation I come up with $302.95 for the two sides, not including tax. Add more for the back and you are probably right on track. Add even more if you have to do extra cleaning. This figure is really fairly low when you compare it to actual vehicle pricing by vehicle. For example: Step vans, Cube Vans, Bob Tails: Both sides name, phone and tag line: $425.00 - Back: $195.00.
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
Guess I can't keep my big mouth shut. Another thought on those two designs... Even though number 2 is fancier and should be priced higher, I find it harder to read at a distance. This could be corrected with different blends, outlines or shadows. IF these were the only two options, I'd go for number 1 and stick to your price. Why? Because #1 is more ledgible at a distance and works better as an advertising tool that gets the message across. It also is cheaper to manufacture than #2. Whether you use a print or paint, you have many less steps in #1 and save labor costs, giving more profit at the end of the job.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Jeff, I can't believe that you just posted what I was going to say, almost word for word, even comparing 4x8 signs to the side of the truck. I honestly believe we should'nt sugar coat responses to peoples questions, because how are we ever going to learn from one another. This Idea that all of us are better than everyone else, cause we are letterheads, is wrong. There are a lot of shops out there, that are not in this great comunity, that do good, "Cheap" work, and by saying "We really don't want that kind of work" maybe true for some, but not others. Jobs like Amy's are bread and Butter to a lot of shops, including my own, every job is important, period. Sure we do a lot of Digital type of work, but I tell you those type of jobs turn around very quickly without too much time on design and the check is in your hand quickly. Amy, what I find is that when a Job is done cheaper by other competitors, it is just that, it is done cheaper, maybe the lettering is not as large, maybe they are using a 12" letter instead of a 16' letter, or using a thinner letterstyle, so that they don't use a great deal of vinyl.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i don't see how any shop could do that for $250...of course i would use hp vinyl(controltac)...the cost of the vinyl/tape would be at least $75.00(depending on your brand)..so this giant ass is gonna cut weed and apply 3 sides for a whooping $175.00...even if you work fast...figure you'd have to spend at least 30 mins with the putz who ordered the work, at least 1 hr of cutting, weeding and masking...then another 2-3 hrs of applying(are there rivets?? add another hr +)so add in the standard pain in the ass fee AND coz ya know the thing isn't going to be clean...so figure at least 5-6 hrs start to finish...thats approx $30/hr w/ no mark up on materials and no wiggle room for f**k ups...which equals no room for any kind of profit. wrong..i wouldn't budge either...my billable time starts @ $45/hr and it goes up from there(and rivets well then..$65/hr)...we all work a few unbillable hours per day doing ordering, paperwork, clean up etc..i don't mind at the end of day if i've averaged $35/hr...but you have to charge enough to factor in all those things that can and sometimes do go wrong...you're the one taking all the risk, loans, keeping inventory, talent, knowledge in your field, etc.etc. hey if we as professionals stick to our guns then the idiots who undersell can go bankrupt(as they should) and then we can finally charge and get what we deserve without customers trying to beat us down. now realize i'm in northeast bumbum and am homebased..i'm sure shops in the city with commercial space and employees have to charge alot more...and they should!
you were more than fair with your estimate.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
We could do the top layout in 2 hrs, using 2 men, easy. There's really not much to it, That's why some shops could do this job for less than $400.00, I'm not saying that it's not worth it, but there are shops out there that are efficient, they have bays, manpower, and fast equipment, and they can turn this type of work out like lightning. Our shop can do this type of work, and it can do a much better Job, if the Customer is willing to pay for it, as well.
I'm just trying to stir things up, and get a Healthy debate going.
[ January 28, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Thanks for all the response.
Jeff, I agree, it's hard to read. I did this in a couple minutes while the guy was here. Didn't want to put much in it as I could feel I wasn't going to get anywhere with him. He did say that it was the best examples anyone had showed him and wished he could afford it.
I did tell him to make sure he is getting quoted for HP vinyl and explained why. It turns out the guy actually lives in the house behind me. I've never met him. we're separated by a lot of empty property. He seemed like he was going to cry when he told me he couldn't afford it! I explained that it's OK and that I have a set price range that I must use to be profitable. I also told him I focus on quality at the best price I can but it's not cheap!
He thanked me! That's about all I can do right!!
I'm not sweating it. Just sometimes I wonder if I am better to make a little money than push people away. My husband has four weeks left at his job then we'll be pretty poor!!
Happy Tuesday!
[ January 28, 2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Ok, so here is my view on the thing, It may only take you 2 hours with 2 men but that is 4 shop hours. Not to mention the angle in which you are looking at this, Here we go again with time and materials, Not advertising value. Do you really think Ford prices there cars based on time and materials?
How about the local " ad agency "that gets 1500 for Amy's top design as a "logo". Is that based on time and materials?
Lets do the yellow page thing, time & materials? dont think so!
So many time we shoot ourselves in the foot because we have the wrong view.
This guy does construction, do you really think he couldn't afford it?
who knows, but I can tell you even if done in intermediate material, it will last 3 years minimum so thats say what? 85.00 per year? for a double sided 4'x8' rolling bill board? with a back door? This guy pays more for his cell phone than he did for the lettering that will bring him business so the f**king cell phone will ring!!!!!!
So much money was left on the table with that one!!!!
amy, dont even waste another precious thought on this one. I gotta go carve something to get my anger out.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Amy, I don't think $400 is out of line at all.
BTW Neil(Sorry, I originally and mistakenly addressed Jeff) 2men @ 2hrs = 4 man-hours(or woman-hours) ...Same as 1 man @ 4 hrs. Is consultation and design time included in that?
If it's anything like around here, your competitor is more than likely using intermediate vinyl. The customer doesn't know the difference until it starts shrinking and peeling off.
[ January 28, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
You Know a while back, there was a debate on 4x8 plywood signs, one shop owner said that he charges a minumum of $800.00 for these type of signs. No he's wasn't talking about digital effects, just everyday plywood signs. He went on and on how he's not going to do it for less than these prices. I also know for a fact that he don't get these prices, as a matter of fact he don't do hardly any 4x8's, the market just don't support these type of prices, it just don't.
The top layout that Amy did is as Plain as you can get, period. That's what the Guy wanted. 4hrs, $50.00 per man $200.00, plus exspenses, of about $75.00. plus another $75.00 for other "Stuff". that gets the price down to $325.00. Around here that's all that it's worth, Now if you use High Performance then that tacs on about another $75.00, so that brings the Price up to $400.00, so what are we debating? the guy uses a cheaper material, end of story, you get what you pay for, we all agree with that.
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Dearest Amy,
Back in the day, I used to charge (on the average)
$1250.oo and up for tractored rigs
$750.oo and up on box trucks / step vans
$550.oo and up on vans
etc.
The price was figured up, keeping in mind two sides and one back. Hood scoops on rigs were $75.oo and up
That was a big logo and lettering, or illustration and or striping.
Usually when I hand drew a sketch, I finished it up with an educated idea of what it would take to produce it and still have a deposit slip (for the bank) that was worth filling out, LOL.
I absolutely adore the way you stood up for yourself with this guy. You made some grand statements and I'm proud of you. Just stick to your guns honey, at some point it will pay off more than your little heart can conceive.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Neil, I just noticed you are in Canada. What would $50 and $75 be in US dollars?
One thing we are forgetting here is the importance of taking the time to design truck lettering for maximum advertising value to the client.
Why view it as just "letters on a board", stickin' on decals, "time and materials", or just a "comodity"?
We are selling advertising here......and even a "simple" layout at 400 bucks, mighty inexpensive advertising I might add. Why give it away? Is it because we are afraid if we don't the guy down the street will? That's a vicious cycle.
BTW, nice, appropriate typestyle choice Amy. Keep designin' 'em well, use HP vinyl, and stick to your guns.
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
Well, you COULD call the guy up and ask what it would cost to add a room onto your shop - and when he tells you "Oh around $40,000.00" say - "Oh, that's OK - Joe Wino down the road said he'd do it for $250 plus beer."
It won't help your income any but it sure feels good - and who knows ? some of them might get it -- someday.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Wayne, All I'm trying to do is give the cheap sign shops perspective, and the cheap Customer's as well. Yes we all agree that some Customers don't look at , "Advertising Value" the way we do. You brought up the design element in this one, What Design? A simple 3 line layout using a Standard font? That's Design? Sorry, I don't buy that one. The "Design" took all of 2 minutes, not unless Amy did Loads of Sketchs.
I'm also Aware that Amy does Great work, no doubt about that one, that's not the issue, the customer says he can only afford so much. So why not "Try" to give him what he can afford, with a warning, No warranties. Not everyone can afford to let work go, if it can be done a little cheaper, then why not try to work with the Customer.
I for example do good work, and I do Better work, and I can do Great work, maybe not as great as some of you guys, but I can certainly hold a candle up to most. I know I can. After almost 26 years, it gives you an edge.
I think before anyone does a Sketch for Anyone, the first question should be... "What's your Budget? So that way the Groundwork is laid, and then the Layout is set, and the material quality is set. Not every Customer needs High Performance Vinyl, I don't care what you say, Intermediate Vinyl works great, if it's Arlon. So you can give a Lower price using this material, afterall most Vehicles are leased, and they Are leased for aprx. 3 years, so why go throug the added exspense of premium Vinyl?
Now having said all that I never did Say Amy's price was to High, no where did I mention that. That price sounds about right for that job, like some people said maybe a little on the low side. And I never questioned her work, that's what the Customer wanted, an inexpensive Job, like Amy presented.
Just trying to stir things up, and get a "Healty Debate going" Don't Ya Love It?
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Let's see... On Friday I sold a carved sign to a new Subway shop (local regs don't permit the usual illuminated can). So I'm doing a 2'x9' (18sf regulatory maximum) SF sign, inch&ahalf HDU with a polymetal (a dibond clone material) backer. Installation is not included; we will install and bill that seperately. Using the famous Time and Materials Pricing Formula, it comes out like this:
Materials: HDU, polymetal, and paint - about $250 Labor: 10 hours @ $55 per hour - $550 ___ Sub-Total: $800
Now let's add 50% for profit - $400
Selling price (by this method of figuring) $1200
Folks, the day I sell this sign for $1200 is the day I close up and go park cars for a living.
Want to guess the actual selling price? Go ahead, I dare you.
Posted by Jim Hansen (Member # 1927) on :
Hi Amy, Aaah,good old Florida, we spent 12 years in Orlando, home to Mickey Mouse and the $19.95 pair of magnetics. I can't tell you how many jobs we lost to someone who would do it for less money down there, but in the 12 years we were there,ALL of the "cheap" shops came and went, and we survived doing quality work for a fair price. We would charge $550.00 for your first design, but our cost of living us much higher here in Connecticut. I think your price is right on the money for your area.
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
The pricing debate will no doubt never end. Twenty five years ago before the computer lettering was a lucrative skill. I could make more money (net profit) with a can of 1-shot and a brush than I can today. Lettering today is nothing more than a commodity because of the computer and plotter. This is not going to ever change so we need to start figuring out how we are going to stay in the “business” of sign making if this is to be our chosen profession. You can buy letters anywhere like bread and milk and I will bet you that it’s going to get even more difficult to stay in this business in the future. New technologies will continually be developed and the way we make signs today may even become obsolete in the future.
I think a distinction needs to be made between the types of clients we have. Some are buying advertising from us that is probably putting more money in their pockets than in ours.
The other jobs out there like the kid who wants a name stuck or graphic put on his car isn’t concerned about perceived advertising value. Now if he wants something totally custom designed for him so he can have bragging rights then that’s another story.
I would venture a good guess that the majority of us are selling signage that is intended for advertising with the purpose of promoting our clients business in the most profitable way possible. Look at what a yellow page ad costs each of us. We are paying for the promotional revenue value of the ads, not the paper and ink its printed on.
The problem of competitors under pricing work will never go away. Too many beginners with no fundamental knowledge of what it takes to run a business profitably. One reason 90% of all new small business startups fail.
We who are in the "business" and who want to stay in the "business" of sign making must learn the absolute hard numbers and cost involved in order to stay in "business".
The other way to do this too is by becoming better than the other guy. Sure the world is full of cheap customers, but there are clients who appreciate and expect professional service and quality over price. This is something the better educated and sophisticated client understands. These are the people who are less likely in need of educating also.
Decide who you want to work for and do what you need to do to service that client.
I can't remember who it was, it might have been Mike Jackson that once said, "If you're making cheap signs today then you will be making cheap signs tomorrow and if you're making expensive signs today you will be making expensive signs tomorrow" Man was he ever so right.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Oh by the way... I agree with everyone on this. No doubt about it. Great Perspective Cam, that's the way it should be.
Posted by Glenn Thompson (Member # 1851) on :
When a customer baulks at your price, you must stick to your guns like you did. But if you want the job even at a lower price (any number of reasons) make it clear to the customer that you could do it for X price... but we would have to use the intermediate vinyl and we could do it for this other price if we made it just a bit smaller also using intermediate vinyl..... What I am saying is that if you need to come down in price for any reason, make sure that there is a difference in the finished product or quality so as to not tell your customers that "My prices are too high"
Posted by vance galliher (Member # 581) on :
glenn...you speak of a very important sales tool !......... never, ever ,never change the price for the same piece....!!...offer a different version of the same concept for a cost they can afford.....find a price range between "this" and "that"...... and explain what they get for this or that.....of course i always give them "that", no matter what they pay.......hahaha........vance.........and cam, my guess is between 2300 - 3000......
[ January 29, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: vance galliher ]
Posted by J.G. Kurtzman (Member # 1736) on :
The computer has altered the interpritation by some, from "sign Artist" to "Vendor" in a very short time.
J.G. Kurtzman
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Vince, that's exactly what I said, try to determine a Budget first, then "Try" to work within that budget, there are always ways to work with in a budget, at least this way you have a better chance of getting that job. Just Curious Amy, Did you present the Job first then, give a price? I know some customers are almost impossible to read, and they may take your sketch and go elsewhere, but If you had a budget first the chances are greater that you'll get the Job.
Posted by Fred Floyd (Member # 2251) on :
Well now remember that I am not a sign maker any more. We had to move to the supply end of it due to health problems. Here is how I looked at this, Amy. At the sum of $400.00 that comes out to $100.00 a year if you use 4 years for the life of the truck and the lettering. Now take that sum and devide it by the 365 days a year that the truck will be seen and that should come to about $0.27 per day. I think that is very cheap advertising. I wish I could get away with just my biz cards at that price. Stick to your guns Lady. Give good service, dekiver when promised, do the very best work you can for your customer and it will not make you lose sleep at night nor hang your head when you look in a mirror. JMHO Fred
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Neil,
I asked him what kind of budget he had and he said "as cheap as possible" I think. Then I gave him my as cheap as I'll go and a different option. He wanted the different option but didn't want to pay for it.
His loss! I'm not sweating it at all. I've gotten more calls this month than the last 4 months put together. Even if I don't sell to everyone of them at least people are getting referred to me by past customers.
The customers who have bought from me already know my abilities and that my prices may even be low for what I am selling them. When they refer someone to me it great. If that person they referred wants to go up the street to the cheap place, great. It will be their reputation they are hurting, not mine!!
The sign at my daughters school was made by this place. It is awful. They bought it two weeks before she started school. They are too cheap to buy another one as well. Church dayschool!!
See ya!
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Good for you Amy! Glad to hear things are busy.
Posted by Rob H (Member # 384) on :
Interesting thoughts to ponder here..
When the undercutter down the street does the job, whats it look like? Did this guy take your design and get a low-ball price on YOUR design? Happens all the time. They get free design time by acting as though YOU are getting the job, then ask for a print out so they can 'show the wife, since shes the artist in the family' and *poof*..
Theres your design wheeling about town, and you didnt install it.
The other thing is, you might just tell customers like this that you'd be happy to re-letter his truck in 6 months when the cheap stuff falls off. Of course it's gonna cost him more than the original quote, just to account for prep time, getting the old garbage off.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
...Same as 1 man @ 4 hrs. Is consultation and design time included in that?![[Eek!]](eek.gif)