quote:

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i wish i could just load some software in my head...

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you did just that when you registered at this site!

Just keep coming back for the "auto-update" feature, as it seems that more valuable info. fills my head everyday I drop in.

I have no router knowledge to offer yet, but I'm sure others will. Good luck!
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 

quote:

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it will run circles, if you pardon the expression, around all of the competition

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Wouldn't that be "spheres" ?

Had to get that three-dimensional humor in there. (or maybe demented is the word for it.)
 

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Posted by Andrew Holmes (Member # 2064) on :
 
Doug,

You are right... well put... but to be perfectly accurate we must say "hemispheres" for a three axes machine because it can only work to the equator, so to speak. However, the Artcam soft ware can support a forth axis (as in a rotary table), for carving wax masters for rings and bracelets, for example, in the jewelery industry.

Delcam International, the parent company for ArtCam, provides software for CNC machines that can carve in 6 axes (maybe more by now) for complex mold making like the stamping dies for auto body panels.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
This is probably low on the list of impressive uses, but it was amazing for me to see a 20 foot 3-axis machine being used here in Maui to
"carve" an outrigger canoe. There are production surfboards being made this way too. I don't know for how lond the technology has existed, but it was new to me to learn about this 4 years ago.
 

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Posted by Andrew Holmes (Member # 2064) on :
 
Doug,

I think the actual technology has been around for quite some time, but in the last 8-10 years
this kind of machining has evolved very quickly in regard to the softwares ability to generate an incredibly complex series of tool paths in a few seconds. For example, a design might incorporate many separate tools and tool paths...a progressive series of roughing passes to remove a lot of material in a hurry, and then progressivly refined passes with more and more delicate cutters, that may finish with a tool that is very tiny (almost microscopic in some cases) that may only take 1000th of an inch cut.

This was the sort of thing that took a human programer weeks and months to accomplish in past years.

There are other aspects of CNC machining that are even more exotic, as in electrical discharge metal removal using a coil of electrode wire or a graphite shape previously machined that is burned into tool steel with high amps. This kind of machining is often used for parts that could not be machined with rotary tools because of the specific geometry of the shape.

The machines that are designed to machine these graphite masters to extremely high tolerences are so precise that some of them must run a special program to get all the moving parts, such as ball screws and ways up to operating temperature before actually running the part. Even the tiny amount of expansion or contraction of the moving metal parts can run the tolerance on a graphite electrode thay may be used to burn a steel plastic injection mold for something like a computer mouse, or a special piece of medical equipment.

Even this technology will soon be old fashioned because we are at the advent of shapes being built up by printing devices that deposit material in layers. This kind of shape creation is able, of course, to build up hollow objects very easily.

It is now possible for a sign shop to purchase a router with automatic tool changers and ArtCam software for about 50K. An expert with the software can generate incredible reliefs from clean 2D vector designs and carve signs, doors, panels, art objects, etc., etc. To have access to this technology for 50K, and not put it to work is not a good business decision, in my opinion. It really is a huge opportunity and the output possibilities are almost endless. For example, I know of two companies who specalize in 3D carving of ice (done inside a big freezer) for corporate dinner parties where the punch bowl and desert dishes are made of ornamental, carved ice.

I hear so many people bitching about what has happened to the "crafts." All the hand crafts are now wonderful hobbies, but very difficult things to make a living at. The vinyl plotter pretty much put sign paint in the museum. I was trained as a cabinetmaker from the time I was a teenager, and with deep regret (because I loved the work), had enough sense to get out of it when I saw dining tables at Sam's Club that sold for less than I could buy the wood.

The "craft" is now about mastering the newest technologies, if one wishes to make money at the sign business. If one wants to paint pictures and keep the "old craft" alive, take your oils and easel to the beach on the weekend, but it is unrealistic to expect to make a living at it. Very, very few artists are able to make a decent living from their work.

There are sign carvers using CNC machines and software who are enjoying wonderful artistic expression with their design work, and are then getting paid $5000 for a sign rather than settling for 5 bucks an hour because they want to do it the old fashioned way with chisels and carving knives.
 

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Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
 
I find this post fascinating. Thanks.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
Deb, I agree completely!

Andrew,

quote:

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An expert with the software can generate incredible reliefs from clean 2D vector designs and carve signs, doors, panels, art objects, etc., etc.

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quote:

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There are sign carvers using CNC machines and software who are enjoying wonderful artistic expression with their design work, and are then getting paid $5000 for a sign rather than settling for 5 bucks an hour because they want to do it the old fashioned way with chisels and carving knives.

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And there are those who enjoy paying 500.00 for a set of chisels to make many many 5000.00 signs instead of paying 1200.00 monthly only to be limited by some programers limited uncreative vision. AND forced to make salad bowls & ice sculptures just to make the monthly payment.

Don't get me wrong I think CNC is great technology, but just because it's there doesn't mean you can't make very good money without it.

The leaning curve is much steaper and more stressfull because every 30 days KA_CHING!

Not to mention the uprages on the EXTREMELY expensive software that does not impress me at all and just when you think you've got it down..........It's obsolete!!!!

time to drop another 50K

If your doing things like surfboards and stuff that is multiples than that router is a wonderful tool, And I can see a carving shop going cnc but most sign shops that get occasional carvings would be better off subbing it out or getting to a meet and learning to carve!

If I can learn it 2 days then anybody can.

[ November 04, 2002, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
 

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Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
Sorry Karyn,

pardon my rudness, welcome to Letterville and congrats on your new venture. I beleive your choice in routers was a good one. If you need to learn any of the things mentioned in your post. just ask away on the BB and come to a meet soon.

Chances are there wont be any CNC routers at a meet but lots and lots of Hobbiests and Museum peices just painting and carving the old fashioned way.

And there you will find the true fountain of information you will need to paint and do gold leaf.
 

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Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
 
THE GEEZER BOOK OF RULES:
________________________________________________
I DON'T WANT TO LEARN ANY MORE NEW STUFF
______________________________________________
 

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Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
 
thanks on the input...both responses have good points...yes i know i've taken on a pymt for 5 yrs...but i have some big accounts that i don't want to lose because of my limitations...and yes my 2 competitors have cncs(gerber)so i want to play with the big boys too. i work out of my home...have a great setup so i'm not paying rent to anyone other than myself. i have subbed a few things out, but it's not what i like to do(it's a control issue)...last but not least...i love technology...i want to expand into other areas(ie...woodworking) if the time allows. i'm very creative and hardworking so i'm striving for a few more doors to open. i offer excellent customer service and a great product. my customers appreciate that when they call it's me they talk to. i look forward to this endeavor! i may have to bite the bullet and hire someone part time but i think it would be an awesome job for the right person...i know i have a blast for the most part. thanks again!
 

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Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
 
I have to agree with Bob on this. I have a carving shop, and while their are times when I have more than I want to be doing, the idea of paying that monthly nut on a machine - as opposed to paying me - turns me off.

For me, the major improvement in technology is not the CNC router, but HDU. My time spent carving is one-quarter to one-third what it was carving wood. There are occasions - not often - where I have multiple jobs with the same design, or jobs requiring very small (less than 1 inch) carved letters, and at those times I'm happy to sub the work to a shop with a router. Otherwise, it's chisels, and BTW, I don't carve for five bucks and hour to satisfy my artistic sensibilities.

This isn't meant as a slam, Karyn, or even a criticism; you have stated your case well. I just wanted to give a bit more depth to the opposing view.
 

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Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
 
I have very much considered a CNC, but not for sign carving. I would still do that by hand because, I really don't care for that "canned look". If I did use it for that it would just be to trough it out for my chisels. I find that the carving part is the easiest part of the job, and will agree that HDU is mostly responsible for that. I can probably carve a job faster than I could get ready to produce it on a CNC. I think that the word carving is used very improperly when referring to a routers output, though think the router certainly has its place. Its kinda like "cold cast bronze" being compared to real cast bronze. Give me a break.
 

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Posted by VICTORGEORGIOU (Member # 474) on :
 
Karyn, the software is very capable, but it will be the steepest software learning curve you have ever climbed. Imagine Illustrator and Photoshop slammed together in one product, with a post processor at the output point.

Two or three things you want to understand and have in writing before you purchase.

If you choose not to purchase the annual service agreement, what is the policy with respect to software upgrades. In the absence of a service agreement, what can you expect in the way of software support if you need it.

If you decide in the future the software is not for you and you want to sell the software, what will the restrictions be on your selling your software.

I have a letter from DelCam that I can fax over to you if you are interested.

Vic G
 

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Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
 
Karyn,

Feel free to call me and I'll be happy to share my personal experience regarding the implementation of a CNC router in my shop and what you can expect to encounter.

Bob Stepehens
813.780.8078
 

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Posted by Wilson Ardmore (Member # 3230) on :
 
It's about choice and acceptance and those
who chose the right path will always make out.
I know of sculptors who use multiple CNC 6 axis
units to carve their basic forms and then add
the finishing touches by hand.
Their craft has not been diluted and they are happy cats with the ability to fill orders and
pay good wages to expanding employee bases.
Good luck to you and your courage is an
absolute blessing.
P.S. Andrew Holmes, holds a heavyweight title
in class "A" human interests as well as having
a monster effect along with Devon Cotrell, in
this business of signs. Victor Georgio, also
should have a degree. Iv'e seen him in action.

Jack Wills, (usin' Adrmore's channel)
 

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Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
 
Interesting post...I am abit envious, I would love to have a router, and the Delcam Artcam software is the best, and from playing withit in real life and having a demo CD here I thought it was great to use, I like the way you can use bitmaps etc.

I also have to agree with Bob, I would really like a router as an extra pair of hands to do stuff that I dont have time to do...but in reality feel I would take in masses of boring and uncreative work just to make the payments.

Amongst all this technology etc, I have just employed my first full time help and he knows nothing about computers, but can handletter and paint great pubsign pictorials. I guess here, while we embrace new technolgy (just bought an Edge) we are carving out a niche (forgive the pun!) for more unusual upmarket signwork.

Karyn at the end of the day I guess its not what you do it with, its the quality of work you produce to your market and with just reward.

Good luck with your new adventure.
 

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Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
 
Hi Karyn,

Welcome to letterville! I've been making my living carving for over 25 years. I have a BS and Ms in industrial tecnnology education.....BC. In essence I have been a student of industry all my life and I'm fasinated with ALL of the technology that has appeared over the years!
The first thing I learned in collage (it wasn't spelling ) was that technology exists for only 2 reasons. First, to do things we can't do and second, to do things we don't want to do. (I'm open minded if someone has a third) If you accept this statement, then you will have to agree with the next one.....once you choose a technology, you must accept it's limitations, right?
Example "ya can't make a square hole with a router bit"....I have yet to see a raised block letter that comes off a cnc router that doesn't have round inside corners.....shall we now look at the prismatics? The distortions are horrible!!! Do they sell? YUP!!! Does that make em OK? Your choice.... can they be fixed?...YUP! By Hand! The routers are really great and a real time saver but once you understand their limitations you CAN make a better product! Better than the shop down the street! Thats how ya beat the Big Boys....set yourself apart!
Ok, now the 3D programs (I do this every year ) Go to the USSC Show in Atlantic City and walk into the booths sellin the 3D stuff....tell em how much you love the product they are demonstrating (they always have a piece runnin) then tell em that you would like them to show you the same sample run 20% bigger but at the same thickness.....it's a real show stopper!
My specialty is relief carving.....the problem is that it's 3D but you don't get the whole third D, , so you need to create an illusion, just as 2D artists do. I don't think the putterprograms can do that yet.....I could be wrong.....very wrong and I'm sure I'm gonna read all about it tonight .
Before ya buy, come to Atlantic City, Visit all the putter booths, Take my carving class, then decide......I believe if you invest in your own skills then you can pay yourself well, instead of the bank. Maybe I should just crawl back into my cave........

Joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun! In Atlantic City!
 

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Posted by Robb Lowe (Member # 2121) on :
 
Andrew,

would you mind listing some if not all the 'one thing to generate money right now' things that your students came up with? I'm just curious what other people have in mind when they get into routing.
 

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Posted by Andrew Holmes (Member # 2064) on :
 
Hi Robb,

When I sold an ArtCam package, I would try to get my customer functional after two days training on the software, followed by one or two days set up and training on the router. This training cycle is usually worth about $4000, considering travel, motel and meals.

Here are some examples:

1) One man had a furniture factory and wanted to carve intricate rosettes on very high quality, circular cherry and walnut doors. He had a $500,000, 5 axes machine and we had to send a company expert to help with this project. This customer also had plans to get into the mold making business by way of making wooden patterns for sand casting, but was going to take that up later, after his designer learned the basics.

2) Another customer already had a router and had been doing a lot of flat work with signs and letters for years. He had an opportunity to do one sign project in 3D that was worth twice the price of the software. He and I spent 4 days together turning his 2D vector drawing into a 3D design that was machinable. This person caught on very quickly because he was a router expert and knew a great deal about tooling and how different kinds of wood machine, etc.

3) One lady that I trained had a very successful sign business and a very good staff so she had some extra time and money to explore new business. She learned how to machine small decrotive plaques to sell at flea markets. I basically showed her how to take some of our Vector Art 2D artwork and quickly and easily make a 3D relief and how to develop a tool path. I might add at this juncture, that the precise editing of original Vector Art images really pays off when the gantry is pushing a 60 lb., 7hp spindle around the 4x8 table at a high rate of speed...messsy vector paths makes the machine shake and shudder something awful in the 3D mode.

4) Another person had a series of Alpine style carvings that he wished to incorporate into custom decks he was manufacturing, as well as 2D shapes that needed to be cut out in volume and with great precision.

5) Another person used the Roland Pixa scanner to scan in a 3D version of a refridgerator magnet. It was a tiny bunch of grapes that was eventually carved in a series of large winery signs, as well as used as a wodden pattern for sand casting an aluminum two part mold for hand blown wine decantors.

6) Another man did restoration work on Church alters and had his own casting operation for doing bronze and silver work. He wanted to first make some wooden patterns to restore the legs of a bronze table (which we were able to design in a day or two), and quickly found ways of doing other pattern work.

There are as many ways of making money with ArtCam as there are people who own the software. Many people let the router run all night carving an intricate sign or plaque and come in the next day with an object on the router table worth several thousands of dollars that was carved while they were sleeping...and they did not even have to leave the shop lights on.
 

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Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
 
Hey Joe,
I signed up for your class in ACity. I have a question about this though. Can AutoCad be used with a router? If so, is it comperable? (sp)
 

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Posted by Carl Wood (Member # 1223) on :
 
Hey Andrew - -I'm making a very nice living on "My Work" - thank you very much - seems you do carry a condescending attitude on 'yo sleeve - 'havin fun in North Mississippi..........
 

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Posted by Carl Wood (Member # 1223) on :
 
Hey can your router go from "Zero" design to completed set of truck doors, + 2 side panels, + tailgate - in under an hour and a half - using 3 colors - just wondering (by the way, that job paid $285.00, plus a $15 tip) - Carl
 

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Posted by Andrew Holmes (Member # 2064) on :
 
Sorry Carl,

I guess I offended you by my comments about technology. Sorry about that. I was responding specifically to the initial post on this thread regarding the wisdom of purchasing ArtCam and a 3D router.

I was trying to encourage taking the step because I saw the potential up close and personal. As I mentioned, although I no longer am actively involved with training and sales of this technology, I was very involved for 5 years and was/am greatly impressed with what was possible, and, also especially impressed with the potential offered to sign makers for profits, at a time in the evolution of the "craft" when virtually anyone can get into the "vinyl" sign business for about $2500.

I am glad your work provides you with a good income, and am also glad you are having fun. You must be quite talented and also a good businessman. I was responding to the pervasive bitching I hear over and over about the "no-good" customers not valuing "the craft" and how hard it is to make money designing, painting or cutting signs in vinyl.

Kinko's is ramping up to compete with mom and pop. Plotters, software and materials are increasingly less expensive, easier to use and better made. There are very good books on color and layout available to anyone who wants to read them, and all the major magazines offer an ongoing education to new sign makers. It really is not that hard to make and sell a decent looking sign with a little practice.

The ArtCam option is just one of many ways out of the dilema of too much supply for the demand.
 

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Posted by Carl Wood (Member # 1223) on :
 
I'm sorry.....I forgot the topic of original post......don't get me started?!?!? I too git tired of hearing all the complaining on the board.....I think what it boils down to is providing a service.....fitting the price to what the customer can afford for his signage...
I'll provide my customer a $12 temp coroplast "Help Wanted" sign or the Custom Deluxe
Subdivision package including lot signs, directionals, marquee & so forth.....that's why I love the sign business - every project is different - Carl
 

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Posted by vance galliher (Member # 581) on :
 
man o man !!.......interesting topic ya started here karyn.........you just asked if anyone used a cnc.....hahah ...welcome to letterville!!!!!!......hahaha... i too am of the old school..i've been making "handmade" work since 74..i need, want , must "touch" what i create.....that's how i have fun, all the frustrations , and all the joys !....my physical connection with what i make ! .......and that won't change !!........but man o man, those routers are pretty farout!!....i can't see my self ever getting one, but i'm sure glad i have an assosiation/friendship with a very fine woodcarving artist who did ! ......and he's not just knocking out "spheres"......thanks andrew for the information ..........technolgy is what it is ! and it will just become more technolgy !
......there is no stopping it. and those of us who want to use it only for itself will.......and others will have fun with what it can provide !!!!!!!vance

[ November 05, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: vance galliher ]
 

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Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
 
Hay Laura,

Glad you are gonna make it! Stop in at the Bull Pen too. This year I'm going to try to have some small "hands on" projects that folks can try.
I don't have the tech experience to answer your question... but I'm sure the vendors in AC will...or hang on here, I'm sure somone will know the answer.
Looking foward to meeting you!

Joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun! In Atlantic City!
 

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Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
 
I've already got myself into this conversation, so I'll do it again... I don't have anything against cnc routers per se - but I DO question the idea that one has to have one in order to "compete". To be successful in the "craft" is to invest, on a continual basis, in skills and knowledge. The sign biz is chock-a-block full of folks who invest in technology (plotters, printers, routers) rather than in knowledge, and the results are all around us - in mediocre work and depressed prices.
As for paying a bank a grand or more a month, to have a cnc router just to cut (a router does not "carve") incised letters in HDU for signs, well, if that's your pleasure, go for it. I'll put my knowledge and skills (and my eyes, hands and chisels) up to that pepsi challenge anytime. A cnc router can almost do what I do, but all that's gained is speed - and that's not enough, not by itself. I'm personally not interested in making furniture, doors, cabinets, whatever, and as I said, in the appropriate situation I will happily take a job to a subcontractor. But a grand a month? Thanks. I'll pass.
 

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Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
 
wow...i didn't mean to start a war here! it seems alot of folks are getting very defensive about this machine and the people that purchase them...(btw-its a $600 pymt/month not a grand)...if i've given the impression i'm just a hack puke i'm sorry..i am not. i live eat breath and sleep my sign business...i work 7 days a week(my choice)and i'm solo in this venture, so this machine is acting as an employee in my eyes. i crank out alot of signs, banners, vehicle lettering and logo designs. i certainly take pride in my work because i love what i do. i cut out my own shapes, prep, paint, apply and install..i can tackle just about anything(except sing..can't sing for sh*t) most carpenters and or woodworkers get a woody when they come into my shop...(because of my tools not me personally)so please don't judge me because i want a cnc. i totally appreciate the fine crafter...i cut glass, paint(watercolor is my favorite), resin inlays in wood etc.. so i know what's involved in a fine craft. i have the utmost respect for any gifted craftsman and i total appreciate the arts. i was just looking for anyone who was familiar with the artcam pro software...that's all. i'm not here to judge folks on how they make their living. i pretty much expected that i'd be picking up a chisel to do a few finishing touches..but be damn sure that my finished product will be a quality product without the "canned look" with great customer service to boot. thanks for letting me defend my view.

[ November 05, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
 

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Posted by Andrew Holmes (Member # 2064) on :
 
Every six months or so I get involved in one of these long and interesting exchanges and hardly ever know when to finally shut up. Having said that, I would like to make just a few more observations about ArtCam and CNC routers.

The learning curve is steep for the software, and also steep for learning to operate a router, and requires special skills of salemanship to sell very expensive signs.

One way around this challange is to partner with others who already have the skills that you lack. Make a new business partnership that works for everybody.

Lets say, for example, that a person is very good with graphic software and has good design skills as well. This kind of person could get good enough with ArtCam in about 4-6 weeks of intensive practice to create very good 2D and 3D designs and tool paths, if they were highly motivated. This person could also work at home or in some quiet place without dust and noise.

Lets say also that there is another person with a big shop, expensive router (perhaps under utilized) and not much time and interest for mastering ArtCam. This person is also very mechanical and does not mind a dusty and noisy work space.

And finally, lets say that there is yet another person who is best at sales and promotion and would enjoy selling very "upscale" signs, doors, plaques and sub-contracts with other shops, etc., etc.

Give it some thought.....but be sure to work through all the problems with a lawyer and consider every possibility you can imagine...especially the one about holding each other hostage to manipulate the situation to suit one's own wish...human nature you know will always rear it's less attractive head in situations like this, but it could be a big winner for all involved.
 

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Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
 
Karyn,

I am envious! A CNC is on the top of my want list. Personally, I don't give a crap about what anyone else thinks about it.

Anyone can buy a CNC router but not everyone can make works of art with one. I can't hand letter worth a flip but I can make and dream up some pretty nice dimensional stuff. Does that mean I am destroying the craft?? It's no different than any other aspect of the sign business.

I say, "You go Girl!"

Some people just never know when to zip their lips and most are probably just jealous that you have the guts to take a chance and buy something that you believe will not only be fun but make you a better signmaker as well.

I'd like to see some of these "Craftsmen" try to take the time to create something 3D on the router!!

If you like doing everything by hand then do what makes you happy! If you like doing computerized design, do it! But don't bash someone else because they don't like the same things as you.

Enjoy!

[ November 05, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
 

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Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
 
YEAH!
 

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Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
 
Hey Amy,

I hope I didn't come across as a basher....if I did it was unintended. I believe I said that the routers are a great tool and time saver....but....if you know its limitations then you can take your work to another level rather than just accepting it as is.

I believe the first time we met in GA I raved about the sign you did for the Information Booth showing. You cut it out by hand....the router could have saved you some time....but what you did next, by hand, would have required a 3D program that would have taken a lot of time to program if you already had the putter skills. You got there quicker than if the whole project was designed and cut on the router. Which is my point.
By the way, the router salesmen LOVE me. Without those machines the availabilty of dimensional signs across the world would be very limited....with them, the demand is high which increases MY business AND I have been able to raise my prices to match theirs....but I get to keep the money because I invested in my skills.
Everyone I'm sure has their own take on this topic and there are no right or wrongs. Invest in the tools that will make your business flurish! I'm only suggesting that those tools aren't always on your suppliers shelf.
Just a friendly offer here...for a $600 a month retainer...I'd be happy to come to your shop and carve the 3D work for ya and you can push my buttons to get it done to your liking {within a 2 hr radius} Just a thought.....
Buy routers, band saws, sabre saws, jig saws, dremels, hand grinders, chisels and gouges etc. and keep makin those beautiful dimensional signs!!!!!

Joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun! At Atlantic City!
 

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Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
Karyn,

I was writing you a personal e-mail but decided to post it here.

First I apologize for turning the focus on your post. And Please dont feal attacked personally or professionally here at all. The defense of those who are not in a position or interest of owning a CNC router comes from the attack from Andrew and the overall labeling he put on all those who prefere craft over technology. This is not speculation it is in his original post.

I for one am extremely happy for you and I applaud your decision. I am also open minded to the router and have romanced the idea of ownership myself.

I have confidently made my decision not to own one at this time for my own business needs. I also dont think anyone here that has posted thinks any less of you for owning one. If anything I read that most of us respect the CNC and your decision, but refse to be belittled into hobbiests and musem pieces just because of " thats the way it is done today "

As you can read in Cam's post as well it was the condencending tone from Andrew in his post.

Putting that aside, I will say I am impressed that you have taken on such a challenge, I wish you great success.

[ November 05, 2002, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
 

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Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
 
I'm not pointing at anyone Joe! You are absolutely great at what you do. I have seen signs made with CNC routers that I could never do by hand in a timely manner.

I am a computer geek. I admit it. I love technology. I can do things faster on the computer. I could probably do the 3D renderings faster than trying to figure it out by hand.

The point is, "That's what I like!"

Karyn came here asking for info about software and this turned into a "my way is better than your way debate," AGAIN!

This is the whole reason people quit coming around to post. They are sick of the bickering.

I will not be adding to the battle beyond this point!

P.S. Those letters took me 3-4 days just to get cutout and shaped properly. I bet someone with a CNC could do it in less than 30 minutes. As long as they are happy with the end product they should get the same gratification. At least I do!! The CNC won't paint for you!

[ November 05, 2002, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
 

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Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
 
WOW! A lot to digest on this one!

First, congrats on taking the step to the CNC machine. ArtCam's great, but be ready to pull your hair out while banging your head on the desk! Full relief 3-D is very complex, and gets even more complicated with bit selection. Don't let this scare your off!!!---just give yourself lots of lead/experiment time on projects as you get going.

One thing to look at is to not try to "prismatize"(?) everything. Depending on what you're working with, look at letting the router do ALL the 2-D work for you----then, take that and tweek it with a chisel, a Dremel, some sanding, whatever.

A tip for painting---with Gerber machines we have an auto-inlay feature. Paint your 'face' out and then hog(clean) the letters out of it. Then, cut your letters positive, paint them, then pop them into place---raised letters or whatever that require very little work in the paint dept.

I speak from production experience, not sales or Training here. I almost always found that there was some element of hand-finishing req'd once my job came off the table. Don't expect it perfect and you won't be disappointed. Besides, the finishing bits are the most fun sometimes!
 

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Posted by Andrew Holmes (Member # 2064) on :
 
Hi Folks,

I would like to offer a full and heart felt apology to any one who was offended or felt they were being attacked by my comments...I really did not mean that at all, and am shocked and saddened that my comments were taken in that way. I was prompted to get involved in the discussion because I have a high level of expertise with ArtCam and CNC 3D machining...I devoted about 5 years of my adult life to the subject,because for me it was the perfect blend of my life long devotion to craft and my facination with technology.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 

quote:

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I hear so many people bitching about what has happened to the "crafts." ...

The "craft" is now about mastering the newest technologies,...

Very, very few artists are able to make a decent living from their work.

...sign carvers using CNC machines and software...getting paid $5000 for a sign rather than settling for 5 bucks an hour...

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I didn't see Andrews remarks as attacks.

There are many sign artists posting on this board, as well as a fair amount of extremely talented & highly recognized artists. Most of us are not going to achieve the degree of recognition that an elite few well deserving masters of their crafts have achieved.

Of course any of us could learn one or more traditional crafts & many of us could become quite proficient with enough time invested.

Still the reality Andrew pointed out is that there are sign artists here grumbling about their income or the current percieved value of their product everyday.

Some may prefer to "invest" in knowledge of a traditional craft, and after "paying their dues" with a lengthy development of skill in their craft, they will gain a return on their investment in terms of satisfaction & passion for the creative process as well as financial gain through succesful marketing.

Others may need to prioritize the "investment" of their time/money (same thing right?)in equipment that can support itself almost immediately. Many comments about the monthly paymant sound as if it is a noose around your neck FOREVER. Obviously purchasing new equipment is not wise unless the revenues exceed the expenses (including time & learning curve), but if they do, then like Glenn always said (about the Edge)it's not "how much money it costs" it's "how much money it makes"

With the amount of time I would have to invest in something like learning to carve $5,000.00 signs, I am sure I would have a lot of efforts along the way that would bring me great creative satisfaction, but may also only bring in about $5.00/hour
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
The real issue here, as I see it, is not about what tools or materials we use to accomplish a project. As our old friend Glenn Taylor always says, design is everything.

Let's face it. Those of us who have been around long enough to learn hand lettering and/or carving will never react in a positive manner to any suggestion that machines can do things better than we can. Doing things by hand gives many of us a feeling of satisfaction and self-worth that we just can't get from a machine.

On the other hand, there is no denying today's technologies have changed our lives forever. We live in a fast paced World where everyone wants things now. The vasy majority of us Letterheads have invested in these new technologies, but our hearts are drawn to earlier, less complicated times.

I was fortunite enough to meet Steven Parrish at my first meet. Steve was an oldtime sign painter that worked out of the trunk of his car. He specialized in gold leaf work and his customer base was banks. Steven loved to tell stories and we all loved to listen to listen. At least for a few hours anyway.

Steven once walked around looking at projects and made a remark I've never forgotten. "Some of these kids are trying to learn the tricks before the trade."

Steven considered anyone under 50 a kid, but his words carry much wisdom. Today's programs give us the ability to achieve all sorts of special effects, but no program I know of can design for us. Good design skills can only be learned by years of study and associating with those that are doing the type of work we want to do.

Here's a link I know you will all enjoy, and hopefully learn from. You'll find 70 signs designed and fabricated by my favorite design software. The software is called Gary Anderson. The demensional signs are all hand carved, but Gary is exploring the use of CNC routers and digital printing in his work these days.

We may never agree on the computer vs hand debate, but we can all celebrate in the designs of this gifted Letterhead who has shared so much with all of us. Enjoy.

70 Gary Anderson Signs
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
Thanks Steve. I have made a "favorite" out of that link for a quick source of inspiration.

After looking through the 70 signs I had to go back & count. Only 4 signs out of 70 are a rectangle.
 

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Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
 
Karyn!

You still have my attention. To think that this has sooooo many capabilities..well, like my dad used to say, "Do it right, or don't do it at all!"
sounds to me you did it right!
ps. gee, the possibilities are endless, signs, canoes, surfboards,,, now I am thinking, totem poles, bowls and mugs, survival and ecletic things! Thanks for sharing!!!!
 

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Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
 
AMY, You're my hero!
If someone wants to blow a wad on hardware, and spend 8 days a week figuring out how to do masterpieces with it.....I"M ON THEIR SIDE!
It just so happens, I'm getting too cranky and lazy to jump into a new learning curve myself.....I'M FIGHTING DIGITAL....that's enough!.....BUT IF ANYBODY ELSE WANTS TO DO "WHATEVER"....KNOCK YOURSELF OUT!
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
Karyn,

I hope you have fun with your CNC router. CNC machines, whether they are 3,4,5,6 axis... automatic multi-head tool changers.. laser, waterjet, hotwire, plasma or rotary cutter.. are SO COOL!

Yes, there is a steep learning curve to do actual 3D work. You will have this learning curve with any 3D software package though, so just dig into it!

Doug: Rapid Prototyping (stereolithography) is some cool stuff. Basically what happens is the machine rolls a fine layer of powder (plastic resin) onto the work area, then a pair of lasers sinter (melt) the resin powder to solidify it. This process is very accurate because only the resin at the intersection of the two lasers is sintered together. The machine keeps rolling out more resin powder and sintering it, layer by layer, until eventually there's a part sitting there in the machine that appeared to come from nowhere. The part is completely finished just as it comes from the machine, ready to be put into service as a one-off or to use as a mold master.

Andrew, would you be able to make a comparison of the learning curve of ArtCAM vs. other CAD/CAM packages that are geared towards mechanical parts and engineering such as MasterCAMM, Mechanical Desktop, Unigraphics, Pro Engineer or Catia? I'm quite proficient with those as I've been doing 3D CAD/CAM Design for a bit over 10 years now.

Laura: AutoCAD itself is very difficult for complex 3D Design. It'll do 2D cuts or patterns well, but it was never written with powerful 3D tools in mind. Mechanical Desktop (a higher end AutoCAD package) or even Autodesk's Inventor are better, but still not as flexible as programs designed from the ground-up for 3D design.

As far as the "craft" vs. machine thing goes... It's not about *how* it's done, it's all about the END RESULT. What does it matter whether you sat there and whittled it from a branch, or had 10 migrant workers using their fingernails to dig it out, or cranked it out overnight from a router? If it looks good and you got paid for it, that's all that matters.

I can tell you this... the hand carvers fear being put out of business and undercut by the CNC guys, but the hand carvers have no idea of the skill it takes to program a 3D CNC job.

When it comes to hand carving, coming up with a good layout is the hard part. When you do 3D routing (or any other 3D design work) that good layout is the EASY part, you still have to generate the 3D pattern and tool paths (tool paths always require tweaking too).

3D routing is not a simple "type it and print it" operation like running a vinyl cutter, and the people that do it and make a living at it know this. You won't find some monkey sitting at a flea market doing true 3D routing.. 2D patterns, maybe, but no way will they be doing 3D... it takes skill and talent.
 

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Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
 
Interesting commentary on the idea of "investment", whether it is skills/knowledge or technology. Example: It's now been almost two years since Bob Rochon called me one day, told me he had just sold a carved sign (mahogany no less) and wanted to take me up on my offer, made at a letterhead meet, to teach him how to carve. I spent a weekend at Bob's shop, took him tool shopping, and showed him the basics of incised-letter carving. Since then Bob has made carved signs a regular (and profitable) part of his business. Bob's approach was to invest some time (a weekend) and $200 in tools to produce this type of work, and my "profit" was to be able to share my skills in the letterhead spirit of sharing. I've called on Bob's computer expertise many times since then (how the hell do I open this $&()%$@#@^ file??!!) and his help in doing my first EDGE job was invaluable (see! I'm not as much of a Luddite as you might think!)

I guess my annoyance is with the idea, promoted by the makers of certain technological systems and the bankers who finance for them, that to be "competitive" (whatever the hell that means) in the dimensional-sign market, requires a cnc router system. It's just not true. Incise-letter carving - the sort of which is seen on the vast majority of carved signs - is just not that hard to learn. Brush lettering is MUCH more difficult and time consuming a skill to master. I'm not comparing what I do with the kind of 3D artwork Joe C. does - that's a whole different realm, and no router is going to do that anyway.

What's missed here, as in so many aspects of the sign trade, is that the only really competitive advantage any of us can have is in design. Period.
In New England there are lots of great carvers who have produced poorly-designed signs - proof that technique (or technology) is NOT a substitute for design skills, no matter how sophisticated your router program, or whether those chisels are Swiss or you are carving with a utility knife. The customer who pays 5k for a carved sign doesn't care (nor should they) whether it was done by chisel, router, or the Keebler Elves - they expect a competent job, no more, no less.

Again, I don't want this to be a "craft vs computer" type of discussion - that's all beside the point. To me the question is, is a cnc router the best investment for a signmaker who wants to offer dimensional signs? In my opinion - no. Simple as that.

BTW, I had a call from Garston the other day; it seems they have a great deal on a used Gerber router, only 25k. Thanks, I'll pass.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
stereolithography huh? that has got my mind spinning! I wonder if something like a catscan machine could run a sequence of slice scans of an object & some program could convert the data instantly & send it to the stereolithography equipment & rebuild the object. Then how about the catscan lasers actually disolve the molecules of each layer of the "subject" as it scans them. Then if that believable step of lasers dissolving matter could extend a little to harnessing the energy from the dissolved "subject" & sending it to the stereolithography machine to be transformed into matter again on the other end of the wireless interface.

Hey, could you fax me that carved sign Mike? While I'm at it, beam me up Scotty!
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
Doug Doug Doug... news must take a while to get to Hawaii, but there are large format 3D scanners out there.. in fact, the company that builds the bodies for the 'vettes has one and offers scanning and milling services.

and there's also a group of scientists in Europe somewhere (saw this story on the news) that are close to transporting matter from one location to another.. they've figured out how to transport energy, so matter isn't too far from the horizon!
 

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Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
 
50 grand would be easy to make if you made carved logo miniature "half bats" souveniers for every major/minor baseball team in the country.

Match your equipment with your ideas. This one would be mine if I had one.

Please send commission check if you actually do start making these.
 

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Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
 
Mike Pipes, I like a good science fiction story now and then, but don't start believing it.
No one is going to be transporting matter, period.

I have sold a lot of sandblasted signs that I buy unfinished from a sub. Hopefully today I can close on my first 3d routed sign that I am not sure how I will get done. This may be the impetus for me to learn carving for future work. With the ready availability of Hdu, it seems like a nice adjunct to my present work.
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
David, I was being sarcastic which obviously still cannot be teletransported.

Oops!.. it was a group of Aussies, not Europeans that did it.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2049048.stm

[ November 06, 2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
 

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Posted by Steve Purcell (Member # 1140) on :
 
Experienced carvers do not fear the milling machines.
These machines do not, and will not produce the higher calibre of work produced by the skilled artisan.

Most of us view them for what they are: servile mechanical devices with the potential to perform the menial, repetitive tasks which we loathe.
 

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Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
 
What a crock..some things never change
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Purcell:
These machines do not, and will not produce the higher calibre of work produced by the skilled artisan.

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quote:

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If you can design it, the machine can produce it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Rochon:

quote:

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If you can design it, the machine can produce it.

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Can it do undercuts?

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