Is the economy low or what? I find the business tougher this year than it was in 1992. Especially with the car dealers. Usually we have an average of 12 to 15 car dealers to do every months and we did maybe only 20 since may!! Seems they ran the same promotion over and over. It's even worst with the supermarkets. Most of them tell that they cut their advertising budget. Is this low economy only in Quebec or you feel the same in Canada and in the States? Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
We are busy beyond belief, though 6 months ago we were hating life, the nature of the business, but we are on the high end, and when that dries up fast we get in big trouble. At least you small shops can do the quickie small jobs, and at least survive. Rick
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Hi Pierre...I have had an exceptionally busy year so far. My main customer base is trucking companies and marinas and both have been experiencing a booming business here in Ontario.
Hope things pick up for you too!
Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
Great year so far. It's really sad how influential the economy has become. It seems that every time some analyst makes a statement on a major news network about "how bad the economy is" it only gets worse. The economy IS YOU AND I. If we go out and spend as usual, then demand is created. Etc... Right now ( because some damage has already been done) is a great time to go refinance the house ( interest rates are low again..) take your equity and make soe purchases. Build the deck you have been talking about. Put in the hot tub. Take the kids on a Disney vacation. Buy the new plotter you've been thinking about. Do some advertising. Buy that new shop truck. Do some clothes shopping. Take your spouse out for a really nice dinner and a movie. Your business depends on people spending money. And everyone elses business depends on you spending money as well.
Let's put an end to this nonsense.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Jeff...AMEN!!!!!
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
The sign biz here is pretty slow for me as well.
Fortunatly, I have a large faux finish job to start any day now, a $15,000-$18,000 job.
I am bidding on a high-end resturant interior faux job. I just wish they didn't want you to match wallpaper! Some of it is difficult to impossibe to match.
I would dump the sign work altogether, but it does fill in between on some of the bigger jobs.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
all i got to say..."OH HOW I MISS THOSE BAD OLD CLINTON DAYS"!!!!!
Posted by Pierre Tardif (Member # 3229) on :
Hey Jeff You are right! By the way a year ago I moved my shop in a new and bigger building investing a fair amount of money, Building new offices, 6 months ago I bought a brand new mini-van, Only two weeks ago I bought a brand new plotter (Allen-Datagraph 860) the biggest plotter in the market (60") and yesterday I bought another master roll of tyvek (2200 yards). At my home now, I builded my house on june 2001 (a nice american colonial 3 stories style), so this summer was the time to finish all the landscape, put on the grass, I builded a deck, put on a swimming pool. We just had our third kid, So we could'nt make it for Disney this year But I guess I did my part for the economy in the last two years!!
Have Fun! Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
Pierre, "Is this low economy only in Quebec or you feel the same in Canada and in the States?"
I thought Quebec WAS in Canada... LOL Posted by Pierre Tardif (Member # 3229) on :
Quebec is still in Canada and I hope it will stay! Sorry, Steve I did'nt intend to hurt you I guess I have'nt found the right english words. I know how the economy is in Quebec province I just wanted to know how it was OUTSIDE Quebec in north america. By the way I'm a french-canadian not a separatist! You got a place for me in case of separation?
Have Fun!
Posted by Jim Mulligan (Member # 1956) on :
I miss the old Clinton days too. When Clinton was president corporations kept accurate books and government did not cook the books. The way to get this economy rolling is to raise taxes. Spend more money on public schools, head start, environmental regulation, prescription drug benefits for seniors, unlimited unemployment benefits, drug rehab programs, more W.I.C., increase spending on medicare and medicade, increase social security taxes for the lockbox, cut defense spending, make it easier for trial lawyers to punish manufacturers of faulty products, limit federal deductibility of state and property taxes, increase capital gains taxes, limit deductions for stock market loses, pay teachers $ 100,000.00 per year, eliminate all domestic oil drilling and research, teach voters how to punch chad, increase public spending on abortion for teen mothers, punish enterprising and successful people. I think if we elect Democrats we can accomplish these goals.
Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
Pierre,
I was being a little sarcastic; I did live in Montreal for 6 years and I can smell a separatiste farther away than a mouffette...mais j'imagine que t'ecrit l'anglais meilleur que j'ecris le francais. J'ai aucune probleme avec mes confreres a Quebec- je ne voulais pas t'insulter. I would be glad to host you here in la belle Nouvelle Ecosse.
[ October 17, 2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Steve Burke ]
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Pretty much the economy sucks in Seattle. Unemployment is over 7%. I am very busy right now, but this past summer wasn't as busy as it usually is. Lots of businesses have gone out of business. Where I live alot depends on Boeing. And that isn't looking so good right now either. All you can do is keep on keepin on. And be happy for the jobs that you do have. Since I have weeded out my cheap customers....I work less, plus get more for the jobs I am doing. It does get scary tho when the ecomomy is shakey and unpredictable.
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
Hey Joe...
If you added a few notes to that one ya have, you could sing a whole song...maybe?
Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
Jim.. I like your style.....
Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
Jim.. I like your style.....
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
And you belive things are better now...boy you need to open your eyes and get your head out of that dark place........
[ October 17, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
My answer is that yes, the economy is affected negatively.
Musing over my personal observations of administrations in power as they come and go, it seems that the Democrats, accused of raising taxes, are maybe performing a balancing act against the Republicans, who are allowing the economy to tank. Or maybe the Democrats with their raising tax policies get voted out just when everybody is riding high and doing well and the coffers are filled, and the Republicans have to divert attention from an economy that was secretly going bad already.
I am a very small sign company, a member of this economy, and yes, I see the people who are my clients hurting all around me. I am more slowly affected than a lot of others, I do work that helps them sell or make a comeback or stay visible. The work that is very much reduced, such as awnings that need to be replaced, or company images that need to be properly designed, is made up for by the more dire work that spells survival to my customers.
How long I will be able to coast I do not know. My personal experience was that when voodoo (trickle down) economics was stopped by a raise taxes administration, it was just in time before the people hiring me to do their “Going Out of Business” banners started doing their own in Magic Marker. I got to design Images for the new Boom and started to make money again.
So whichever scenario above suits you, I for one want my taxes raised again. Whenever I have to pay more taxes, I way make up for it in blooming earnings.
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
I just got back from doing a 17 day country fair in Mass., my 24th year, 1,200,000 people. Not many were buying anything. They weren't even going into booths to pick up leaflets...even during the last two recessions it was never this bad. I think this is diffrent...folks don't know if they are gonna have a job tomorrow, if their retirement is safe, if they will ever get their investments back, we're goin to war against a Man? Corperations promise to be good. $5 trillion surplus now $3, 4, 500, billion defficit in less than 2 years. This is different, we haven't as a nation been in a place like this before....I think folks are just scared...Spread em!, whats in yer shoes?, Whats in yer bag?, UPS lookin in yer windows, yer mail, yer putter....snippers, 650 miles on a major highway to catch up to 3 suspected terriorsts? You guessed it! I'm not too comfy either.....
On the bright side, a portable sticker shop did GREAT at the same show....I guess a lot of folks are lookin to get something going on the side.
I'm glad those folks in DC are a lot smarter than me.
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun! At Atlantic City!
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
We're up in both our businesses this year... with the theme work going so crazy I have had to turn down a bunch of stuff.
But in the golf business we depend on weather as the business is pretty well recession proof. And the theme work is based on a few good customers each year as we can't handle more than that as the jobs are quite large. We are currently booked two years.
While our business is different than most I have a philosphy that business is as good as your attitude.
I find it much easier to make a sale or even upsell substancially if I have a genuine upbeat attitude. Folks who talk to me will get a good news story and smile - even if I may be down at that particular moment. They don't come to me to hear bad news. Success breeds success even if the appearant success is only a show. If my customers want bad news they can watch the six o'clock news, listen to the radio or read the paper... in my shop I talk about positive stuff and encourage our employees to do the same.
I dream big dreams, with a smile and then work my butt off to make it happen. In the process we are very successful.
If times are slow, it is a perfect opportunity to fix up your storefront, letter up your vehicle, do up your showroom, rebuild your website...
Look prosperous (without spending money you don't have.) Most important, always have a positive attitude (at least in public) and you will succeed.
-dan
[ October 17, 2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
OP, not trying to make negative comments here, but my head is clearly where is should be, and you're attitude is exactly why there are economic problems. The moment George Bush was elected some moron announced that the country was heading for recession. Well, it doesn't take a genious to see that all it took was a small mention of the word "recession" and people had the typical knee jerk reaction, and slowed their spending. How does cutting taxes scare people from making purchases? Do you just enjoy working hard and getting less at the end of the day? Do you really think the majority of the nation is against the idea of paying less taxes? The real trouble seems to have come from several factors, but the largest always seems to be the Moron who announces the economic doom. As soon as the words are spoken on CNN, the sheep get in line and follow.... It's a fear driven economy at times, and this is a prime example of it.
Our economy is suppoirted by consumers.
Example:
When you decide to splurge and order DSL for your home, a communication company thrives. When they thrive, they in turn purchase new equipment such as Cisco routers, etc.. Cisco stock shows gains, attracting new investors, etc... You decide to go ahead and buy that new RV you've been dreaming about because your Cisco stock is doing so well. The RV dealer makes a profit, and decides to go ahead and build that new sign they had been quoted a month prior. Etc... It goes on and on.
So, If my taxes are raised, then logically I'd be taking less money home. How can me taking less money home stimulate me to spend more???
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
iam sorry guess iam to dumb to handle any "deep thought" in this...I SEE WHAT I SEE!!!! and since the change in power, its been downhill, all the way not only econmic, but in all other things. if you belive this is a GOOD LIFE we have, ok, i used to work in rehab, i understand how some people rationalize bad things so they dont have to deal with the reality of bad situation. have a won-erful next 2 years.....iam sure you will.
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
WHAA WHAA WHAA! ... I've been rich and broke, currently ridding the lowest low ever. My "economy" is all mine it is what I make it I never waited on anal-ists or politicians to fix my situation. Thank goodness and the ability to see over the B.S. and the fact that I live in a capitalistic republic where I can do for myself and to myself as I see fit. Oh yeah and as some Democrates may have forgoten.... this is a Republic not a Democracy.... 'Scuse me while I trip getting off the soap box here ... heh heh Time to saddle up the old shovelhead and get the knees in the breeze Posted by John Hugentober (Member # 3316) on :
Jeff,
I subscribe to your philosophy completely. Who is in control of the Country anyway?? I would like to believe that there is strength in numbers.
We became victims of the recession this year when my wife was laid off from her job as a Tool-and-Die-Maker in April. The positive thing is that it has forced our hand to diversify and that has led us into the sign business. All my life, I wanted to have my own business and control my destiny, but I am not the greatest risk taker. I work for a big company and probably will need to do that for many years to come, but at least some of our income is in our direct control. I am very pleased to hear that many shops are doing very well this year.
Good Luck to all,
Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
When the "economy" is Good.I make more For RENT signs! When the "economy" is Bad. I make more For SALE signs! I Guess it depends on who's "economy" we are referring to.
DAMN THE TORPEDOS,FULL SPEED AHEAD!!
Posted by Mark Yearwood (Member # 2723) on :
Jeff, you are right on! All the sheeple listen to the talking heads on the tube and dive under the covers to hide everytime someone says "recession", "downturn","falling stocks","war", blah blah blah. People's fears are the cause of all this. We have had our best year ever in the sign business and have started another business. God is my banker and has never let me starve!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
sheeple....i think if you really really look at that statement...those that listen to the head "sheep"(lintbag) will all follow him off the cliff!!!!and if rush litnbag is your idea of "HONEST AND UNBIASED-NESS.....you people need to really get a reality check!!!!!! we used to say in rehab "turn of the volume and watch the picture" apperently you are the ones wearing blinders and only listening to what "they" want you to hear! i really feel compassion for all the missguided people!!
Posted by DannyD (Member # 94) on :
Out-of-control busy. Has been for over 4 years. Always hiring. Always overtime. Should top 5M this year.
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
Hey Joe...
You and I have something in common besides lovin signs. That is, there isn't a single person that visits this board that gives a rat's @$$ about either of our politics.
So, don't take it personal when the posts in a thread like this bypass your soapboxing and answer the topic question instead. You're not talkin in a vacuum like you might think...just, nobody cares. We all have our OWN views, and don't log onto a sign site to get them changed. Ever.
I think we all, or most of us anyway, love ya. I know I do.
Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
OP, Who said anything about Rush? I do my thinking for myself, thank you...... Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
If it's not Lintbag as Joe says, it's fat asss Kennedy. You can't trust any of them. They all suck. Bush didn't ruin the economy in two short years. If you think that, your a moron. The books were being cooked long before he or anyone else got into office. IT"S CALLED GREED, STUPID. Both Parties have it. The rich just wanting more money. It will never change. Now we as SIGN PEOPLE should not be arguing who is to blame, but how we can collectively find a way to make more money for ourselves in this market and in this industry. Pierre asked a simple question, if the economy was bad everywhere. It's bad hear right now Pierre. I just cashed in my 401K to pay my bills. That said, sometimes things turn on a dime and I'm right back in the thick of it. Good Luck to you.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Yeah Rob! I love it when people speak honestly, instead of saying how wonderful it all is when we just 'think positive'. Being positive is usually part of the personality of being self employed, otherwise we wouldn't even consider being in business for ourselves. But to say 'just think positive' and to say 'go out and spend spend spend' is ridiculous. Through the 27 years I have been self employed, I have always spent accordingly. If business is great...spend as you want. But when business isn't as good as usual.....spend cautiously. Otherwise you will be in debt up the ying yang like the majority of Americans, and wonder why you are unhappy. And you can't blame anybody but your bad self for that one. duh.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I really was going to avoid this one, but two dead on answers from Rob and Cheryl have to be responded to. Right on to both of your answers. And I say that in an upbeat and positive spirit. Cashing in a 401k account seems desperate, though I have done that, but now, why not for all the crap any of them are worth. Pierre, the economy here in southeastern Michigan has been bad for quite a while now. I have to be more proactive in making a living than I normally have been.
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
I'm with Cheryl. Don't spend what you haven't got, just to spend.
All of this talk about war, war war, isn't helping the economy. Terrorism at home and abroad is scaring people. Stocks are way down, mine included. I am being a little cautious with my money, but I am also spending all I can without going into debt. When the economy gets better I will spend more, because I will have more to spend.
I think some people that are doing well or have never had to struggle, do not have a realistic grasp on the common persons realities. (Bush and others)
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
DON wasnt directed at you you and i have a friendship that is ..."above" our political views. and iam with rob, i never said that ONLY the republicans are dishonest......as for thinking for yourself... good, the less lintbag in your life the more you can think...
Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
Cheryl, you're a wise person, and I hope you did not take my comments as a push for people to spend what they don't have, and put themselves in debt.
What I'm talking about is not waiting for a report on CNN giving us the all clear to spend and consume as we normally would. With the economy being a little slow at the moment comes much opportunity. If we don't make the best of it and move forward, niether will our econlmy.
I know sometimes comments turn sour on this board ( especially when talking politics.. , but this really shouldn't be a political discussion. I definitly have witnessed some economic slowing, but as far as our business is concerned, we're having the best year ever. and we're expanding, and improving to better meet demand. There aren't lines of people in our community out of work and waiting for free cheese, and I'm not about to change my spending habits based on the NASDAQ, or what someone claiming to be a financial expert is saying about the economy. In fact, now may be a good time to purchase some stock while it is at a low. I'm not a day trader.. so in the long run it may be a good opportunity.
My point though, is that obviously people are letting these factors change their spending. We may very well go to war, and I'm nervous about that. But I'm still living my life. I just had a great weakend fishing with my Father, despite the world economic state, and the possibility of a war in the middle east. Hang in there everyone.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Jeff...I have always been a cautious spender. Now more so than ever. Going out and spending more is not the answer. I see too many people in deep trouble financially. I am in the process of building a shop, but instead of refinancing and doing it all at once, I am taking my time and paying as I go. If more people lived 'within their means' I think there would be less anger and hostility.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Hey, OP, how is it every time there's a discussion about politics or economics, you bring up "Lintbag"? Here's a news flash for you - just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't automatically make them a Lintbag follower. I personally can't stand the fat pompous bastard, and haven't heard him in years - he doesn't represent my views, nor does anyone else in the media or the Guvmint. My views are my own, Joe; I don't need a talking head to argue, bellyache or think for me. Assuming, as you seem to do, that anyone who disagrees with you is automatically lined up lock-step behind a so-called conservative radio loudmouth is a serious error on your part, because it limits the discussion to what you THINK someone else's opinions might be, rather than actually listening, and god forbid, actually learning something from a differing point of view. And that, my friend, is a truth you need not be wary of.
Posted by Chris Elliott (Member # 1262) on :
Thank you Cam!!! OP, try to restrain your knee-jerk response until you've at least given some consideration to the points Cam made. Who knows, maybe you'll finally start to understand that some of your thinking and living in fear is just as deadly as you think meat is!!
Pierre, to answer your question, things are good AND bad around here. Wheat's up but cattle are down.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
cam & chris....only reason i said anything about lintbag(tokyo rose, of the air ways) was the use of some of his canned phrases: SHEEPLE, TALKING HEAD..... that is his retoric. i didnt ass-u-me anything.......
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
Now that Ronny Raygun can no loner remember which way to guide and lead us - have the Republicans come up with "The Trickle Up^ Theory", now? Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
It wasn't just this thread, Joe, you bust out Limbaugh as your whipping boy all the time. I don't know what his pet phrases are, or much else about his views, as I just don't listen - you seem to know much more about Rush and his views... c'mon Joe, fess up. You're a secret "dittohead", aren't cha? Heh heh ehe....
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
Haha Mike, I think it always has been a trickle UP economy. Tricle down never worked, the rich just kept their money or spent it on yachts and expensive vacations. You would not beleive the amount of $80,000-$4,000,000 yachts down here. Yacht slips are going for $1,000,000+ here.
It's funny how the WORLD economy is so based on the USA's economy. The original post is from Canada.
[ October 19, 2002, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Robert Thomas ]
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
OP, If you know that is some of LINTBAGS retoric, then you are admitting you listen to old lintbag. Now we know, deep down in side you are a lintbag fan. The truth finally comes out. OP LOVES LINTBAG!!!!!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
yeap ya all got me.....heheheheeheheh
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I don't have any political statement to make, and no knowledge of the economy at large, but figured I'd weigh in on this topic with my thoughts.
Business is good for me this year. I think it's pretty good for Maui & Hawaii in general. I know it will be my best year. Closed on my first house in December. Only put 5% down, but homes are up by an average of over 20% since then, so I should be able to re-finance already. Also just won a bid for over 12K for ADA signs to be supplied & installed for the County. For my one-man shop, that's a nice chunk to help boost my fourth quarter. After 3 years of living in my shop working 24/7 I now spend a huge amount of time & money on the house & yard, but even with a fat new bill to pay, things just seem to take care of themselves.
I really don't spend time following the news & can't grasp global or even national economics. My economics are very simple-minded. Someone mentioned that people who don't worry about money, or never had it rough, do not have a realistic grasp on the common persons realities. While I agree in that truth, & I feel it is true for me as well. I may not have enough income to justify the fact that I don't worry, but as a lifestyle choice: I don't worry!
I have had it rough financially for the first 15 years of my adult life, due to my unwillingness to "play the game". I had my fun, didn't mind being broke, & let my anti-establishment, counter-culture ideologies run their course. Now in retrospect I would say that I was as much a sheeple as any yuppie capitalist who bought in to "the game" from long before they could even understand or consider not playing. Now I am stoked on free enterprise capitalism & sometimes can't believe I am lucky enough to make a living doing something I love.
I am careful about some overspending such as credit card debt, but without any budgeting beyond the occassional glance at my accounts recievable, If I want something for the house or the business I look at my check register. If the money is there I get it. I pay my bills ahead of time to keep from having much money there, but when it is there, I have no fear about transfering it into "living" because that is what I want in exchange for my hard work. When I get older I guess "financial security" will mean more to me, but since I lived without that so long, right now spending as fast as I earn is part of my version of Dan Sawatzky's theory. It is an investment of trust in myself, my business & in the positive repercussions of my attitude.
Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
Doug, you're outlook is refreshing. If more people lived like you, the word "recession" would have no meaning. I'm glad to see you're doing well. :-)
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I'm always amazed at what people think about economic theories, including the idea that the "rich" (a different species, obviously) either "keep their money" (how? and what for?) "or spend it on yachts and fancy vacations". Who cares how the "rich", or anyone else, spends their money? As soon as money is spent, it returns to the economy, where it moves as a measure of value. Money doesn't "trickle down", or up, or anywhere; money is a measuring stick for value, nothing more.
So let's examine this. A "rich" person buys a yacht, for $300k. That yacht was built by a shipyard, which employs workers, who are paid salaries and benefits (there are no Asian sweat-shops building $300k yachts. They are built in the US by well-paid Americans, mostly. I'll be happy to introduce you to some of them if you like.) Those workers use their money just like you do - they buy food, clothes, shelter, cars, etc. Thinking about where the money spent on a $300k yacht actually goes is not as emotionally satisfying as envying a rich guy who owns that yacht, but it's necessary if you want to actually understand an issue, rather than just play word games with it, which is what politicians teach us to do.
So what if the "rich" just keep their money? Answer: They don't. In fact, they can't, any more than you can. The only way to keep money is to stuff it in a mattress. As soon as you spend it (on yachts, big houses, parties, booze, jet-setting to Vegas, or however else we imagine the "rich" throw away money), it goes back into the economy. If, instead of spending it, the "rich" put their money in a bank - or stocks, CDs, bonds, whatever - back it goes, into the economy, working, again, as a measure of economic value.
But there is a way to screw up the flow of money. It's called Government. Government interferes constantly with the flow of money. Out of the $300k spent on the above-mentioned yacht, about 60% - $180,000 - goes to the Government in taxes - sales taxes, payroll taxes, excise taxes, transportation taxes, etc. What happens to that money? It no longer is used to measure value in the marketplace, because it is now under the control of people who use money, not for spending or investing, but as a means of political manipulation. The political class of our great nation operates a scheme that staggers anything the "rich" could imagine - it takes money from people by force, and uses that money to purchase influence (including votes) for the specific purpose of maintaining itself in a position of power. Since that power has no real economic measure, it can only be maintained by the seizure and manipulation of money through taxes and Government "spending" programs. And where does Government "spend" its money? On whatever and whomever will assist it in maintaining and increasing its power, which is based on its authority to remove money from the economy by force.
A caveat here. This is not a "conservative/liberal" or "republican/democrat" issue. Both major parties are deeply emeshed in this system; as political entities, they cannot be otherwise. The only difference between parties is that they tell a different group of people whatever it is they wish to hear, in order to maintain the influence among, and the loyalty of, that particular group. It is nothing more than two competing factions of the same group, struggling endlessly to have their hands on the levers of power. In this type of system any deeply-held political philosophy or set of committed principles is a liability: people who have them (think Ralph Nader or Ross Perot) are marginalized and rejected in favor of creatures such as Mssrs. Clinton and Bush, Hastert and Gephart, etc ad nauseum.
So why am I sitting here on a Sunday morning writing a treatise on economics and politics to a bunch of sign people? I'll tell you why. We are operating our lives and our businesses on the killing floor of the American (or Canadian, as the case may be)economic marketplace. Our survival - as independent businesspeople, as individuals, as artists and producers - is wholly dependent on our ability to think clearly, to understand issues, to know the difference between reality and the choking smokescreen generated by the political Wizards Of Oz whose every waking moment is spent trying to influence and manipulate us for their own ends. Every time someone here, or anywhere else, uses political boilerplate phrases or expresses unexamined opinions, they laugh - and keep picking our pockets. Our only defense is to look them in the eye, hold reality up as a measure of value, and tell them I DON'T F***ING THINK SO, PAL. And as a final word, though I may sometimes be a bit rough on some things people write here, PLEASE don't take anything as a personal attack. That's not my intent. I respect anyone who can keep their head above water in this trade, in this economy, given the bull we get fed every day. End of sermon.
[ October 20, 2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Cam Bortz ]
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
It always amazes me the economic theories people come up with when their personal money problems arise. Some need a figure head, be it a president, political party or talk show host to focus their attention and blame on. I guess it's better than blaming your parents.
None of us really know the big picture as to why economic downturns happen. Economics is theory not science as they would have us believe. Sure their are schools of thought I agree with (Mises), but how to keep the engine going full steam is beyond all of us. Suffice it to say free enterprise is the best way for all of us to live, and less encumbered by government and it's associated leeches, the better.
Jeff, if spending would cure all our problems, then why doesn't everybody go out and do it. It reminds me of a science fiction story I read years ago where a future fascist state existed where the major crime was not spending your quota and the repurcussions of not doing so.
What was the saying? A recession is when your neighbor is out of work and a depression is when you are. It all seems tied to our self centered view of life.
All that being said, I think the economy in general is in for a rough ride. Just an impression, my feelings probably no more insightful than most. It just seems there was way too much overvalued stocks, bogus businesses and their attendant financial statements. It just seems there is way too much unsound spending, saving and buying practices existing in our economy. If so, no amount of positive thinking can right that, only sound living and thinking.
Hey, we just might need some rich business people to help rejuvenate this economy. By some standards, a few of the posters in this thread just might qualify as rich.
[ October 20, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: David Wright ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
I LOVE IT....thank you cam, doug and dave. we are all inteligent individuals here, and any political beliefs SET ASIDE, i agree that govt(left, right, conservative, liberal,demo/repub) is the bigger problem within. as for MY ECONOMY, ive got all the work i want....yes this is going to be a good year for me(total income)best ive had since i moved here in 98. 2000 and 2001 were my worst. i also agree with those that say you are responsible for your own ECONOMY. if you get out and sell yourself and your business, then you can make money. in some areas of world, this wont help. i see in the news BOEING, AT&T, INTEL etc. are laying people off, they are not making any money so this inturn affects those areas where the workers live. so if there is non working people then your area is in a "recession". others are in a boom. and no matter what you do, is gona make any diff....untill the money flow is back to what it was. doug, i was in maui and took one of the bus tours the guy said something about buying homes there, that $300,000 was a median price for most homes. and something about you never own the land, it belongs to the people and you just lease it..am i close?
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I think it was Mises (Ludwig von, 18??, founder of the Austrian school of economics) who wrote that "recession is the means by which the market returns capital to its rightful owners." The idea is that in an economic expansion, capital (money, goods and information) is invested in a wide- ranging variety of enterprises. Some of them are efficient, cost-effective and productive; some are not. Eventually, the amount of capital invested in non-productive or inefficient enterprises begins to siphon capital from its "rightful owners", those who ARE efficient and productive. Starved for capital, those enterprises produce less goods and services, which creates less wealth, which tightens credit. Investors begin demanding repayment; inefficient or non-productive enterprises either fold or reform their practices. Either way, eventually capital is returned to its rightful owners, who are defined as those who make the most valuable and efficient use of their resources.
That's the theory, and it works remarkably well, left alone. The problem is, it is never left to function on its own; enter political considerations. A company with political connections - in the real world, almost any large business or corporation - uses those connections to seek some form of "protection" from market forces. It's easier to beg and deal for political favors than it is to operate efficiently; every MBA graduate from every university is taught how to do so, at the expense of learning real-world economics and reality-based business practices. The result is the grotesque spectacle of an Enron or a Tyco or an Arthur Anderson, groveling before its political masters, trying to excuse its behavior to the political class that made that very behavior a requirement in the first place. They call this capitalism - but it's nothing of the kind. Capitalism dies with every subsidy, campaign-contribution, or political "fix" that shields corporations - or individuals - from the economic consequences of their actions.
So who are the genuine "capitalists" of a so-called capitalist economy? It's anyone who operates a business without some sort of government intervention to shield them from the consequences of their behavior. In other words, folks, it's all of US. The small business person who has no option but to operate efficiently, make responsible choices, and live in the real world. For us there's no safety net, no big accounting firm to cook the books and swindle investors, no congressman on the payroll to make sure we get a contract, or fix our prices to guarantee a profit, or squeeze a competitor out of our market. We are the REAL capitalists - we live, work, and do business in a market that isn't rigged according to the political manipulation of the moment.
The satisfaction of being part of this elite group - and we are an elite - is that we succeed or fail according to our own choices and our own efforts, not according to who's campaign we paid for or who's arse we kissed for a favor. We make our money the old-fashioned way: we earn it, every damn dime of it, and we do it with our integrity and our competence. We don't have to. Any or all of us can go get a job whoring our skills to some corporate pimp, but for most of us, the price - that being our self-respect - is waay to steep.
So, as an answer to the question, how does the economy as a whole affect us? Only as much as we allow it to. If, as I quoted at the beginning of this diatribe, a recession is the return of capital to its rightful owners, and if its rightful owners are those who operate efficiently and with integrity, therefore, to that extent, we are recession-proof. But like everything else in life, the outcome depends on the cumulative effect of small decisions made every day. To make those decisions properly, we have to be able to think. To think we have to see the world as it is, not through the distortion of the endless smokescreen and bull****e coming from our political class and their corporate-media ankle-biters. They operate by setting up false premises, by manipulating our emotions, by blaming it all on the "rich" or on "extremists" or the "excesses of the free market", or whatever bogeyman-du-jour suits their purposes - but the purpose is to distract you while they pick your pocket and infringe on your liberty. That part of it never changes, the rest is window-dressing.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Cam, you make a lot of sense. Did I altready try to nominate you for president? if not you got my vote.
OP my $300,000.00 house came with a deed to the land. I think, like anywhere else the deed is only good as long as the power structure that created & required the deed is still in power. Personally I don't believe completely in land ownership (a throwback to my afore-mentioned anti-establishmentarism) but as part of "playing the game" having "my" land secures me a place where no other game-players can kick me off. You must have been talking to a Hawaiian. Since the circumstances of Hawaii becoming part of our Nation are suspect (as is, of course, so much of our history)There is a strong sovreignty movement here wanting to "take it back"
Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
Cam, very well said. Wisdom is amazing.
David. Why don't people go spend as usual, thus solving allot of our economic issues? Fear. Ignorance. Doubt.
OP. Here is my opinion on action, and reaction. Everything happens for a reason.
Why did Boeing Lay off so many employees? Supply and demand. you can't justify paying people when the demand for your products have dropped. Why have they dropped? Airlines are obviously not placing as many orders as they had projected. Why are the airlines not buying as many new aircraft? They are not selling as many tickets. Why are they not selling as many tickets? Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. Ignorance.
When I say Ignorance I am not speaking of anyone personally. I just mean people don't always understand why things around them are happening ( I for one admit to knowing very little of the world I live in, just lack of actual experience ( I'm only 28 ) but I'm definitly learning more every day). It takes time to see for yourself, apply logic, and experience, and a little learned wisdom and knowledge to realize how and why life is the way it is.
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