If so, how is the over all pro's and con's of the machine
Posted by William Holohan (Member # 2514) on :
Steve, Don't have a DC2-3, but have a wholesale to the trade co. that does work for us on large truck photo graphics. The output is superior, donee on #m material wit overlaminate. Very happy with the output. Goes on well and is easy to conform over rivets.
Posted by Brian (Member # 39) on :
We have a DC1 and love it. Prints great and the contour cutting with the DuraSign is a piece of cake and very accurate. Great cupport from Summa, I almost always get someone when I call and know they wil call back if I dont. Cons - not a lot of spot colors compared to the Edge (but more than I need for what we do)We are also merchants here if you ever need some output. If you have any specific questions let me know.
Posted by steve simpson (Member # 3298) on :
Thank you for the responses...I appreciate every bit of information that I can aquire because this is such a big purchase for us.
Thanks again Steve
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Steve:
Is this going to be your first foray into digital printing? What attracted you to Summa?
Please share.
Thanks!
Posted by steve simpson (Member # 3298) on :
Jon Aston, Getting back to your question....I am attracted to the larger output of the Durachrome... I am familiar with the edge from past employment...have no complaints with this machine...but I'm getting alot of requests for larger output and some customers would prefer that there be no overlap. I would like to target some of the 4x8 signage and auto wrap markets and this could possibly cut down on the labor involved of the smaller panels... I've already considered the thought that someone suggested about the smaller panels being easier to handle and/or replace.
The edge seems to be a proven performer...although I am concerned with the time needed to keep the edge producing because of the intervention of cartridge changes.
I haven't been able to get much feedback from end users of the summa machines and that kinda makes me a little leary of such a large purchase.
I have spoke with Brian Stoddard of the sign zone and plan to speak with him further, But he seems to have extensive experience with the Summa Durachrome 1.
I would also like to here from anyone else that could lend any info on line of Durachromes
Thanks Steve Simpson
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Hi Steve!
Thanks for "filling in the blanks".
I can't tell you how many times I've heard the concern re the EDGE's small print width (and the subsequent need to panel larger jobs).
If you ask your prospective digital customers what they would prefer...without question, all of them will tell you "no overlaps" or "no panels, please". While it is true that small panels are easier to install and replace, etc., this whole argument is all a bit of a "red herring". Here's why:
From normal viewing distances of less-than 6ft, the "seams" of a panelled, well-installed EDGE job are all but invisible (unless you're looking for them; in the worst lighting conditions). To prove this...
Get your hands on a hot looking 4-colour process job with 2 or 3 panels in it...something "poster size", mounted on styrene.
Stand 20 feet away from your customer and ask them what they think of the image.
Start walking toward them and ask them to stop you when they pick-out "anything objectionable" about the print (don't tell them what it is that they are looking for).
You'll be within 6' of them when they stop you (and it might not even be the panels, but the dots that they stop you for).
Ask them to imagine the sign 10 ft in the air, or zipping by them at 40 miles an hour...so what was the issue with those panels, again?
I recently had a conversation with a very good customer of ours who (when I was in Sales) wouldn't buy and EDGE from me for several years because of the panelling concerns you have expressed. They finally bought the a few years ago EDGE to do EVERYTHING BUT panelled work and the EDGE is STILL far more versatile than any other product on the market today...more products to sell existing products and faster ROI potential as a result). They admitted to me that -- as I had told them time and time again -- the panelling issue is mostly an imaginary problem. (PLEASE DROP ME AN E-MAIL IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH THEM DIRECTLY). Changing color cartridges on the EDGE is no big deal, really -- and especially if you are running large jobs...you just listen for that signature "hummmmm" to stop and make the changeover in less than 5 seconds. Gerber/3M 250C will reduce your application time/labour by up to 30%...truly amazing stuff!
An EDGE is a better first investment (by a long shot). The faster your return on investment, the faster you can re-nvest in (by then) a proven wide format solution.
[ September 30, 2002, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Kevin Mead (Member # 3314) on :
We used to own DC1 and just had it replaced with a DC2 because of mechanical issues. We are happy with the new machine, but... Soon after we acquired the machine, we've already had a small part fall off and had to send the carriage back for adjustments. I also can't stand the "SMART RIBBON" chips. Summa sent a bunch of extras to use that are bad and when they're bad, you can't print at all. Seems like I'm spending more time looking for a "good" chip than I am printing. The quality is very nice, but I really hate the fact that I'm stuck using only their material and ribbons (so I don't void my warranty) to print with. It keeps pressure on me to only buy from them, therefore eliminating any competition and any ability for me to look for more cost effective alternatives. Back to quality: When the file is set up right, the quality is VERY NICE. Banding is sometimes an issue, but is dependant upon which colors you're printing. If you have any more questions, feel free to drop me a line.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Kevin: You forgot to mention this to Steve... FOR SALE Posted by Kevin Mead (Member # 3314) on :
oh yeah it's FOR SALE.
that better?
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
As per the e-mail, Kevin...just trying to help you and Steve both out if he decides to go the Durachrome route.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Just thought I'd throw in my 2cents on panelling.. the only time panelling is an issue, is for museum type of work, yes then it may become an issue. But after thousands of prints I don't think I ever had a customer say anything about it. Look at wallpaper in a house, unless the panels aren't lined up you don't ever hear your company say anything about it do you? Afterall a vehicle has panels all over the place, door seems, creases, mouldings, door handles, etc. And Jon is right it is easier to install smaller panels than larger ones.
[ October 01, 2002, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
I have to totally agree with Neil's point. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is panelled. It's a little joke I use in one of my seminars, but no matter what size printer you buy, you'll always wind up panelling-----it'll never be big enough!
Look at a McDonald's truck, or a beer truck. Very likely off a 3M Scotchprint machine---that job is panelled, probably in about 4' x 5' panels.
Anyways, don't let the panel size of the EDGE scare you off. Ask yourself if you can apply that 3' x 8' graphic off the Summa by yourself, or do you need someone to hold the end for you. Plus, if you do biff the application, you're reprinting the whole graphic-----biff an EDGE panel and you can reprint the one panel.
I've heard lots of great things from SUMMA owners, but I have no real tech knowledge on them. I've been an EDGEhead for almost 10 years however, and love it!
Posted by Brian (Member # 39) on :
There are times when an overlap is a problem (at least in my book) such as a truck door graphic with a contour cut. Now you can either make it fit on the Edge or create an overlap. Either way its poor form to me since it will come under closer scrutiny than a large print or a wrap.
On big stuff (we do a lot of box trucks) it would be silly for me to lay down small strips when I could slap on 3 48" panels and be done. A good example of a job that would be fine on the Edge is Neils last post on the portfolio page (nice stuff Neil) - I could put that all on in one piece but the panels are no big deal from the edge it looks like.
As far as changing between colors, its not a matter of how long it takes to swap them out - the point is you have to be there to do it. Just last night I started a print that is 46" x 210" with CMYK and two spot colors. I started the print before I left and there it is all finished this morning nicely wrapped on the take-up reel.
What Steve needs to look at is where his work is now and the type printer that is needed for the majority of his work. I was buying from a wholesale printer until I was paying as much for the prints as the lease payment was going to be. Now the real advantages of an inhouse printer are better quality, better color matching, and easy upgrades - meaning I can offer an upgrade to a customer from plain cut vinyl to a print and have it done the same day.
Hope that helps Steve...
[ October 01, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Brian ]
Posted by steve simpson (Member # 3298) on :
Jon,Kevin,Neil,Ted, etc— Thanks for all the talk...when we get going on this subject it brings up interesting points, whether it be good or bad. This is what I am looking for.
The issue about the "smart ribbon" technology to me is a real concern. Sometimes I think companies try every way possilbe to limit access to the outside world (third party vendors). I'm sure it has it's good things according to Summa, but according to you the end user it has been a costly burden.
The durachrome3 that I am considering prints 36" but only accepts 40 inch material(???) Kinda puzzleing huh? This keeps more of the vinyl supplying to the machine left to Summa. 40" is not common (at least in my area) and especially 3M. I guess you could work out something with a vendor for slitting, although I find it hard to believe that the yield drop from a 40" roll would be much use—Except for 20" roll buyers.
I have some sample prints from the guys at summa...Which by the way are very pleasant to work with. The samples look great and they requested for me to send them some of my files for sample output.
I would also be concerned with the print head life...
It seems that you can put a variety of materials thru the edge and it provides exceptional results. Summa only wants you to use (Their) 3M premium vinyl and a product called vision print for view thru clarity. I can understand that the material must be extra clean for output, but the edge will print on so much more(clean as well). Does this mean that the head is that sensitive or proan to destruction from some foreign material or it can't handle various changes in head temp?
Sorry if I'm rambling but I am so overwhelmed with this decision and there are so many under answered questions.
Thanks again
Steve
Posted by steve simpson (Member # 3298) on :
Brian, thanks for the response I was posting at the same time you were and didn't see your thread til I returned....I am still going to contact you about contract printing as soon as we work the finals out with the customer. Steve
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Steve:
From here, you don't seem at all "overwhelmed"...Go back and read through your own posts within the context of the discussion you started. If anything, it strikes me as though you ought to go with what your gut is telling you.
There are way to many satisfied users out their (many of whom only scrape the surface of what can actually be accomplished with an EDGE) to suggest that the EDGE is anything other than an excellent investment.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Here are a couple of examples, As you can see the substantial size difference that we do. By the way the brake photo is one I took using my Kodak dc260 digital Camera, Every sign shop should own one. I took the photo right in their showroom. The one of the muffler and spark plug is taken from brochures, oh and all edge printed by the way. Also note the natural seams in the muffler, body lines and that sort of thing, a non issue.
[ October 01, 2002, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Nice work, Neil!
(and thanks for "backing me up")
Posted by steve simpson (Member # 3298) on :
Yes in deed...nice work! About how long did it take to print the panel job? How long to apply? Was the end price profitable? Steve
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Thanks.. and no problem Jon, the furniture truck took about 10 hrs to print.... the yellow is solid vinyl and cut black lettering installed over it. It took about 10 hrs to install.... lots and lots of rivets... lots of them. Enough to drive you nuts. We actually did 3 trucks like this, so the customer was extremely happy. How much do you think it went for? By the way, I'm not getting compensated for backing the edge.. I'ts just a great versatile machine, It's humming away as we speak.. can you hear it? it's going ch-ching! ch-ching!
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
Great Point! Material stream is an important consideration when considering a machine and it's viability for your business. I do have a couple of customers that buy 3M 7725 (poly liner) from us for use in their Durachrome for considerably less than the Summa distributor, but the distributor got a little freaky on them!
Remember, an EDGE prints on much more than WHITE!
Take the time and see what YOU want this machine to do for your business. If it's smaller jobs with P.O.P. tendencies, an EDGE may be excellent due to it's versatility. If it is indeed larger format, then maybe the size thing is more important to you.
Remember, the easiest way to grow your business is by selling more products to customers already dealing with you.....
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Neil:
The next time you get a job with lots of rivets, you have to try Gerber's new 250C (featuring 3M Comply Performance Technology)...you will thank me for suggesting it.
Posted by Bill Biggs (Member # 18) on :
I've had an Edge for 3 years now, It paid for itself the first year, I've had no maintenance, and I bought it used.(a demo from the supply co) I have done billboards and hardhat decals with the edge. Static Cling and screen printing films, refrigerator magnets and oilchange decals. portacan labels and church podium logos. I have never had a customer or myself dissatisfied with the output. But I just purchased a 30inch summa plotter, and it is great! If they make printers like their plotters I might be tempted. Bill
Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
Steve- in answer to your dust comment- The EDGE isn't harmed by dust in the true sense of the word...the dust creates little specks in prints sometimes.
Neil- if that EDGE is hummin' that much it's time to upgrade the PT Cruiser to a Prowler...if you can still get one. Any bites on the Tartan foil?
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Hi Steve, no I can't afford the prowler just yet, I want a harley first, but I just leased a new 2002 Ford king cab 4x4 for my new shop truck. We still have the PT Cruiser that's my wife's sled. Still no word on the tartan foil from gerber, I thought it was an excellent Idea. Good to hear from you.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Hi Steve, no I can't afford the prowler just yet, I want a harley first, but I just leased a new 2002 Ford king cab 4x4 for my new shop truck. We still have the PT Cruiser that's my wife's sled. Still no word on the tartan foil from gerber, I thought it was an excellent Idea. Good to hear from you.
Posted by Kevin Mead (Member # 3314) on :
HEY STEVE, GREAT LOOKING WORK! But I can't believe you'd do that large boxvan with the edge. You probably could've subbed the work out, still printed jobs on your Edge and still made money with the outsourced printing, plus you could have installed in much less time. My guys(2 of them) can wrap a boxvan that size on all 3 sides in about 6 hours, using 180c controltac laminated with no tranfertape. The Edge is an awesome machine, but dang is it slow!
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Kevin, No I disagree, why have the machine if all you're gonna do is outsource the work, I made the same per ft, for the small jobs as I do for the large jobs overall. Remember the only part of the box truck that's edge printed is the Images themselves. The revets took most of the install time.. maybe next time I will try the new 3m vinyl. Oh by the way the names "Neil" (lol) I do that too.
Posted by Kevin Mead (Member # 3314) on :
Sorry "Neil", for some reason I thought you were Steve, my bad! "Why outsource the work?" you ask. Why not? If you can still sell the work at a decent sq. ft. price and install the job in almost half the time and get on another job that much quicker, even while the Edge is printing other work still making money, what's wrong with that? We are lucky enough to own an Edge and a Durachrome, but we know our limitations on output. We had an order for 50 truck wraps and we outsourced the printing to a company with a vutek. They got the work out 10 times faster than we could have, plus we still output work on our other machines, making even more money. Isn't that business is all about, making money?
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
I do agree with you.. up to a point. If I was doing 50 trucks, or even 5 of the same I would outsource the job also. But since we do have the edge why not use it. It prints away while we're doing other work.. no problem at all. The next time we do a job with lots of revets, I'm going to try that new 3m comform Vinyl. By the way thanks for the Kind words and comments.
Posted by Kevin Mead (Member # 3314) on :
AAAAAAAGH!!!! i can't stand this DC2!!! so much for the "smart" ribbon technology! i ordered white ribbons and didn't get a chip with it. i need to print their "vision print" and now i can't because i have to have one of the chips to make this thing work! aaaagggghhhh!! thanks to technological advances, i can't print!!!
