Sorry to see you suspect of dispursions on my part. I only meant to ad from my own experience of 40+ yrs time what has been noted to me by professional lab technicians. My deepest apology..........!
Posted by Jeff Bailey (Member # 1975) on :
Wilard, there is no reason to apologize. Though you are entitled to your opinion, I have to disagree with your opinion regarding comercial application fluids. Application fluid ( I can speak for Rapid Tac, and Rapid Tac II) will not promote poly migration of vinyl film.
The vinyl failure discussed in the topic leads me and several other people to believe that heat was the factor, and not any of the application variables. In other words, I do not believe the result would have been any different had a dry application been utilized. The adhesive system did not seem to be degraded in any way, and the vinyl clearly stayed on the vehicle for 2 1/2 years. I also don't wish to speculate just why you speak so poorly of Application Fluids ( especially considering that your friend "Crazy" Jack Wills was the co founder ( along with his brother, Roger Bailey). of the original Rapid Tac Application fluid, in the small town of Rocklin, CA, right next to your location of Auburn, CA. If memory serves me correctly "Crazy Jack" also played a large part in developing Splash, and Window Juice after his volluntary departure from the Rapid Tac Co.
Most vinyl manufactures do not get into application fluid issues because of the variable it introduces to vinyl warrenties. From their perspective, they have no way of determining exactly what the film was exposed to during an application ( Did a customer cut an application fluid with something harmful such as acetone, etc..., or use a contaminated bottle to spray it from, experince a failure, then attempt to blame the film for that failure?) This in no way implies that quality commercial application fluids are not appropriate for vinyl applications, or that they contribute to a perticular films failure.
The following was copied directly from the Arlon website and it's Calon film tips:
"NOT ALL APPLICATION FLUIDS ARE CREATED EQUAL. USE ONLY WETTING SOLUTIONS PRODUCED FOR THE EXPRESSED PURPOSE OF INSTALLING PRESSURE SENSITIVE GRAPHICS.
EXAMPLES OF GOOD APPLICATION FLUIDS FOR DE - TACKIFYING ARE:
RAPIDTAC - U.S.
SPLASH - U.S.
VINYL LUBE - AUSTRALIA"
Good luck with your future applications... wet or dry. And as always, if you would like to try Rapid Tac for yourself at no charge, simply email us an address to send the samples to.
[ September 04, 2002, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Bailey ]
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Wilson, I've seen your signature on signs around Auburn.....nice work! Welcome to Letterville! (I recently moved from CA)
Adrienne:)
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I didn't see Roger going public with any suspicions, so I guess that must have been private. Your public apology, however, seems less then sincere.
quote: I hope you did'nt use any of that commercial fluid that everbody seems to get sucked into.
If that's your way to add from your "own experience of 40+ yrs time..." I would find it somewhat confrontational if I was a merchant supporting this site & a general reference like that was posted regarding my type of product.
I do 75% dry application, & the 25% wet is usually just water, but Rapid Tac has it's place in my shop & I appreciate it for the jobs that require it.
Posted by Kenneth Sandlin (Member # 3014) on :
While we do not have an official position on any particular application fluids at this time(pending my sending samples to our lab guys in Germany for extensive testing), I have never had a failure attributed to Rapid Tac.
In the vinyl failure topic, my opinion is still that heat was the primary contributor among whatever other random chance that caused it.
I do have some Rapid Tac in my office for when I do wet apps because my teacher (Jay Lansburg) recommended it and so many other authoritative types swear by it.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Jay Lansburg is still in the sign business? ...I didn't know that. That's great! I remember giving him some design pointers several years ago when I worked for a company as a designer. Funny little guy. Glad to see he's off and running and instructing others now. He still out of California? Tell him I said "hi" if you see him. Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I have used Rapid Tac as well as my own mixture of soap and water with a trace amount of alcohol. They both work great and I have NEVER experienced vinyl failure with either in my 20 years experience.
I personally like Rogers & Jeff's mixture because it is the same everytime and I don't like dinking around mixing my own...although sometimes I still do if I'm out of RT and need a wet app.
I too, like Doug, prefer to do as much as I can dry.
I find it very difficult to believe a vinyl install failure would be due to using RT.
It's more likely the vinyl itself that is the problem. Bad batches of vinyl can include all sorts of anomilies...including adhesion "skip", bad adhesive, etc.
Vinyl failure can often be traced to improper surface prep, harsh climate, horizontal exposure, and even someone that put waaaaaay to much soap in his own "wet method" mixture.
Overlapping different types of vinyl in hot climates can cause problems too....calandared over cast and vise-versa.....different shrinking rates pull against each other.
Metallics, as posted on another thread...have their own inherent problems.
Todd
[ September 04, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Well, I guess I am the guilty party "jumping" on the respectfully stated opinions being discussed. I guess respect is in the eye of the beholder, so if I am out of line here, I will back down & welcome the open discussion of opinions, as that is what I love about this place anyway.
Also, welcome to letterville Wilson. The weather gets cool sometimes, but basically a very warm place to be.
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
that was a real warm welcome doug.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I can bring genuine warmth some days better then others.
I'll just do my best taking my knocks when I've slipped into the ice.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
.....
Posted by Kenneth Sandlin (Member # 3014) on :
Sure Todd! Jay's been doing vehicle graphics out there in CA and we used to use him as our company demo/spokesperson in our big tradeshow booth. We brought him in shortly after I started, to do a company sign training day. He is a funny guy ...he's great. He is still doing his class at some of the show. I saw him a couple weeks ago at the Long Beach BIG Show. He's doing well. Email me and I'll give you his email address if you'd like to say hey.
Posted by dave simpson (Member # 1627) on :
i've never understood all the talk about vinyl fluids???
i apply dry and use a little soapy water if i need to.. ...simple, done, ...while i'm in my easy chair relaxing, ..others are jamming down to the sign supply to get another bottle of..... who cares!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I remember giving him some design pointers several years ago when I worked for a company as a designer. Funny little guy. Glad to see he's off and running and instructing others now. He still out of California? Tell him I said "hi" if you see him. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)