i just finished putting up four 2' x 2' squares of vinyl on some windows. these squares have a 1/2" outline offset by 1/2". i did a wet application because i was afraid of trapping a bubble in the middle of the square. i don't know why, but the vinyl didn't want to adhere to the glass.
1. i washed the glass twice with Rapid Tac and cheap paper towels (recycled paper, nothing added). 2. i applied a heavy coat of RT to the glass, peeled the vinyl (red Arlon HP) and rolled it down with a rubber brayer. 3. i waited 2 minutes, sprayed RT onto the mask, and when i went to peel up the mask (medium tack Ultra), the 1/2" stripe came up with it. 4. i rolled over everything again, with extra attention to the edges, went and applied the other two windows, then came back to the first hoping it had "set". it STILL came up. i did eventually manage to coax the vinyl to release from the tape and to sit on the glass. i'm hoping that it didn't blow away during the day, and that the adhesive finally bonded.
the weather was mild, i was working on the shady side of the building.
so, did i miss a step? is is possible there was some other contaminent on the glass? did i use too much Rapid Tac? (is that possible?). i probably should have used a low tack tape, but i didn't really want to buy a wide roll of tape for one job. mostly, it felt like the adhesive never activated -- it just kept sliding around. the Arlon is so soft, that it began to stretch out of shape just from trying to pull the tape off, and then i had to coax it back to its original shape.
any tips?
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
Scooter,
in my opinion,
I would not apply vinyl to glass using the wet method. But if the wet method is needed use the Rapid Rack II..(it drys faster), and make a final glass clean with straight alcohol before applying the vinyl.
chris
[ June 24, 2002, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Chris Lovelady ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ive said this before ...RT is good for its intended purpose. but some windows require more cleaning then RT will do. windows attract things like exhaust fumes, oil thats been splashed on them from the road, and other air born contaminates. if this window had not been washed for a long peroid of time it needs, PREP SOL OR LAQURE THINNER washed a couple times, if that doesnt make it clean then you will need to use a cleanser like comet or bon ami. when the window is clean..you can take a china marker to it and it will make a line with no seperations....if the china maker skips along..it aint clean.
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
Scooter I think your using way to muchwetness.When they say wet application they dont mean soaked.Your just killing the adhesive.Try a fine mist oc vinyl and apply.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Chris is right. If you're gonna do glass, Rapid Tac-2 is the stuff to use.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
A test I found usefull...
After cleaning drag your finger across the window glass and feel. If there is no slight tug, no resistance or does not feel like it will squeek then its not clean enuf. This is a subtle feeling but you can tell. Nothing will stick until it feels like the glass will squeek.. Rapid Prep is a great start. Ive never met up with a case like Old Paint describes.
Rubbing alcohol has oil in it. Read the label. its only 92% alcohol the rest is oil..
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Well, this one is gonna be fun ! first:
Scooter, next time do use low or mid tac tape, and definately don't use a roller in place of a squeegee !
It takes firm "squeegee preasure" to get the liquid out from under the vinyl, a roller won't do !
Don't ever clean glass with "lacquer thinner or prep sol. (oil derivitave) !!
Curtiss, the wrinkles (on the back of your knuckles) must "grab" the glass to prove its clean !
Randy, it does NOT matter how much you spray on, it can't be too wet (don't waste it, but get it covered good) if you just "mist it" then you will get bubbles where some of the vinyl went on dry and some wet this will trap air in SPOTS.
I don't know about "re-cycled paper", I mean, how do they clean the old peanut butter out of it ?? I think I want mine NEW no chemical enhancements please !
He he he hehe
Old Paint , well what can I say ? If yer happy, I'm happy !!
Roger Posted by Richard Doyle (Member # 2919) on :
In my experience with windows, I've found that the time it takes before the tape is ready to be peeled back off is significantly longer than with metal or wood. I don't think 2 minutes is enough time unless it is 90 degrees outside. I've had to wait as long as 25 minutes on cold days it can be frustrating I havn't tried rapid tack 2 yet but have heard good things.
[ June 21, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Richard Doyle ]
Posted by Cheryl Lucas (Member # 1656) on :
Tried and true, with Rapid Tac 2!!!
Before ya peel off the transfer tape, wet it and squeegee again, works for me everytime!
Cher.
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
i was going to use RT2, but i read the labels about 5 times, and it only said to use it with polyesters and other stuff. "i'm using High Perf vinyl" says i, "so i guess i shouldn't use the RT2."
I used a squeegee on the corners and the stripe, but it didn't seem to help.
well, next time i'm trying rapid tack two. (and maybe i'll do a little test with some bon ami just to be sure).
the thing is, i did a bunch of 6" x 36" strips using the same materials on the same windows -- only difference was that it was Arlon yellow (HP) instead of the red. i don't see why that should matter though.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Don't is all I will say about the Bon Ami.
Yes you CAN use R.T.II on the cast premium stuff, it will shorten the posistioning time is all.
Don't forget to clean the glass twice, use low or mid tac tape(fresh tape) if your low tac tape has been sittin in the open, seen the sun shine and lots of exposure to the air, then you now have "high tac tape' !
It grows more "tac"(adhesive quality) as it ages, so don't prematurly age it !
You must be firm with the squeegee for glass applications,. If you have to wait more then 2 minutes to remove trans tape you have a problem somewhere, CALL ME 800-350-7751, I love to talk !!! Roger Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I did a Rapid Tac 2 glass install at night and in the pretty cold Georgia winter. I had no problem and now I do 90% of my glass apps wet. I haven't had a problem yet and I use R-tape Conform, a hign tack tape but I do soak it down and let it sit then regqueegee before removing the premask (and I remove it SLOWLY and watch for vinyl lift. I use it with both Avery A8 and A9 as well as ORACAL 651. I beleive the key is surface prep.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Another thing I do is spray the vinyl, not the glass. As I peel back the liner, I wet the vinyl down, and then apply to the glass. Always works for me. No bubbles, and with reallllll good squeegee? pressure, it stays down good.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Johns got the squeegee thing "goin on"
Allright!!
Roger Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Roger made a good point which was the first thing that popped up in my head....use a squeegee instead of a "roller". I don't see how it would be possible to get the correct application pressure with a "roller brayer". I think that would trap far more bubbles than a squeegee.
That in itself will probably help.
I tend to do windows dry...but am going to give the Rapid Tac 2 a try...since I got my samples from Good Ol' Roger. Hey thanks for the samples Roger! I have a job where I can't wait to try the Rapid Remover.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I didn't catch that brayer thing up top. Man there ain't but one thing to do vinyl with and it'sa 3M Gold Squeegee with a nice sharp edge. I use brayers for one thing, going over the graphic after the premask is removed. You just don't get a good directed downforce with brayer. They look cool though.
Posted by Kevin Smith (Member # 1667) on :
GDAY Being a "Bushie" in australia i always do windows wet. Both surfaces and leave it 24 hours to dry. No problems.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Kevin, why come back the next day (using up time you could be spending on another profitable job) when you could use R.T.II and be done in minutes (no return) ?? Roger
P.S dosn't anybody like the Rapid Tac squeegee(formulated just for wet)??
Posted by aaronssigns (Member # 490) on :
I live not all that far from you in the Napa Valley and with the wonderfull mild weather we have here in this part of california i find no matter how wet you get your glass and vinyl and no matter how clean the glass is somedays it just takes a bit longer than you want and Ive even had to leave and come back to the job a bit later till it dryed.Ive done a bunch of vinyl stripes with lettering over them on windows, and what works for me for is the sripes i use no transfer tape at all (dont need it if there is no set spacing like for lettering,and if the stripes are small say 1/2 inch up to oh about 3 inches I will apply them dry anything over that allmost allways I will do them wet with R.T. (I love the stuff) and lots of times I will cut my stripes over size in lenth and then trim them once they are on the glass. The R.T. will dry very fast and stick faster with no tranfer tape and then also you save the step of pulling transfer tape. Then you can come right back and apply your 2nd color of vinyl stripes or lettering or what ever it is , Applying vinyl to vinyl with R.T. drys and sticks very fast and I allways use a squeege with lots of force when applying on glass (but not hard when squeeging over bare vinyl with no transfer tape on it, you dont want to skuff it up). and befor ya know it your back on the road home with that cash in your pocket
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
AAron, i get very consistant results on glass if I; 1- use the right quality vinyl, matched with the right type and quality trans tape.
2-clean the glass 2 times with nothing but R.R. or II
3-Use only a cheap papertowell from the grocery store
4-check glass with a clean hand, wrinkles on knuckles grip clean glass/slide over dirty or oily glass.
Glad it makes money for you !
Keep up the good work
Roger
P.S. e-mail me some pics of some a your work,include the time involved, I'll put some on the site soon.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Scooter, I also have had to wait sometimes hours before I could remove the app tape leaving the vinyl on the glass. We don't always get to do windows on the sunny side and cold glass just seems to take more time. Sometimes it goes fast, sometimes it takes a second trip.
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
well, at least the NoCal guys are with me on this one. maybe a combo of RT2 and just giving it extra time... cold glass and 50 percent humidity...
Roger, i'm not sure what a "wet" squeegee is -- i just use the 3m gold ones. and i DID squeegee after rollering. (i used the squeegee along all the stripes when i checked at 2 minutes and it still wasn't sticking -- the squeegee didn't seem to "activate" the adhesive either.) The tape was medium tack and pretty new, and i soaked it with RT before removing.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
As stated previously, we have applied "premium cast" to "frozen glass" at trade shows, I even applied vinyl to the inside of the freezer compartment of a refer at R.J sign supply in MO., with Rapid Tac, not Rapid Tac II.
After reading your new responce, you followed all instructions, that just leaves one thing to be wrong; "the glass was not clean enough".
The "hand test" will tell you, With clean hands, place your overturned hand (the top) on glass, let the wrinkled areas around your knuckles drag across glass,if it dosn't bounce and grip, its contaminated, it should not glide smoothly !
Sometimes there are things on glass that are difficult to get off, if these things(residues of window cleaners, nicoteen, wax, cooking oil,etc.)get mixed with the Rapid Tac, your done. If Rapid Tac or Tac II don't get everything off, then you need Rapid Prep. After The Prep, you will need to clean 1 time again with Rapid Tac or Tac II.
You should never have to wait more then a couple minutes !!!
Roger
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Oh yeah, Scooter, get rid a those RECYCLED paper towells, you may be rubbing someones discarded *BLEEP* ALL OVER THE GLASS ! HE HE HE HE HE HE
Roger
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Scooter...you say you are squeegeeing AFTER rolling. This, in my opinion, is a mistake. I'd suggest tossing out the roller and simply squeegee it good and hard. I'd bet my bottom dollar that the roller traps more bubbles into the application than it gets out.
Am I alone on this assumption? I've never heard of anyone using a roller to apply graphics....I really doubt you can get the kind of pressure and conforming power out of a roller that a squeegee delivers.
If Roger's Rapid Tac 2 works as well as stated (which I bet it does), I'd keep a jug of that around just for windows...because I know that soapy water DOES NOT work on glass...unless you leave it on with the transfer tape for several hours.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
I love all of Roger's products, but I almost always do windows dry unless they are incredibly large graphics.
Posted by aaronssigns (Member # 490) on :
Roger I use your r.t. and r.prep but have yet to use your r.t.2 but i have 2qt. coming monday morning and looking forward to giving it a try. if im reading you right the least bit of contamanation on glass will slow drying time???? i will tighten up my prep procedures like you said and try your r.t.2. I use mostly cal plus vinyl and med. tac transferight tape that is for the most part fresh (i use alot of it and dont keep alot on hand since my supplyer gives me next day service on my supplys) the only down side is the supplyer that i use the most only stocks gal. of r.t. and r.remover and only qt. in your other products. Something that i missed to say in my earlyer posted reply...whem appying large vinyl stripes with no transfertape I 1st wet the heck out of the back of the vinyl (so it dont stick to its self....a real B---- if ya know what i mean) then wet the glass and float the vinyl on and then wet the face of the vinyl and then squeege, weting the face of the vinyl helps to keep from skuffing it and helps the squeege glide better not catch and wrinkle, if the stripe is very large ive even used a large rubber window cleaning squeege for my 1st pass over the vinyl and it works the bulk wetness and bubbles out real fast and lays the vinyl out nicely then i rewet the face again and over one more time with a reg. vinyl squeege for pressure and then trim for lenth with a exacto and ruler if needed. I find the process to go very fast for me
I will try and dig up a few pics to send you..... thanks
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
One other test for glass........ Put a lenth of masking tape on the area that you prepped, if it sticks well, you are good to go. If not keep prepping.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Exelent tip Robert !!
I'll give that a shot as well !
Roger Posted by Kevin Smith (Member # 1667) on :
Roger---GDAY We r very laid back in country australia: Leaving the job 24 hrs to dry allows more time to "Have a Yarn" the next day. Cant say ive seen ur products in australia-- They sound Excellent,Good,Beaut--- Spose samples r out of the question? CYA
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Kevin, I'll send you samples if you line up a package of samples to your supplier,it is very "freight costly".
See if your supplier is interested?
Roger Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Client wanted graphics on the inside so I printed on clear with a white prime coat on top. Size is about 44" x 54" w/ about 1/4" overlaps on panels. It looks good inside & out, day & night. I got about $500 for it installed (right around the corner) Also got promise of a free kiteboarding lesson. After seeing my 22 years old daughter get belly-dragged around the bay on her first lesson, I think I will get in shape before I take advantage of that part of the deal!
I installed with the help of rapidtac. I like to install dry on glass when I can, & sometimes I would risk it on large stuff, but large stuff with expensive printing on it (as opposed to just cut vinyl) that is also being installed away from my shop, was not a low-risk situation. Since I needed to get the pre-mask off to move on to the next panel, I was pleased with the results of re-spraying Rapid tac on the outside of the pre-mask to help it's bond dissolve. I just use water for many wet app's, but on glass this sometimes requires a little time before removing the tape.
the white prime coat helps the overlaps look good in the day. Also looking through 1/4" of glass really makes the whole job more outstanding (& integrated I think w/ much less attention drawn to the seams) At night the seams show more but due to exterior lighting it's not too bad.
[ June 23, 2002, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
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I have a job where I can't wait to try the Rapid Remover.
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I installed with the help of rapidtac. I like to install dry on glass when I can, & sometimes I would risk it on large stuff, but large stuff with expensive printing on it (as opposed to just cut vinyl) that is also being installed away from my shop, was not a low-risk situation. Since I needed to get the pre-mask off to move on to the next panel, I was pleased with the results of re-spraying Rapid tac on the outside of the pre-mask to help it's bond dissolve. I just use water for many wet app's, but on glass this sometimes requires a little time before removing the tape.