I keep reading the posts about the "franchised" sign companies underbidding you folks and thought I might give another side of the coin. As a consumer I look for a mixture of quality and price. I go to Wal-mart instead of the local stores because quite frankly I can travel 30 miles and still save a bundle! I can buy the same exact product for a lot less than the local stores. I fully understand that the locals have to charge an arm and a leg for things to keep the bills paid. I have learned over the years (49 of them) how to manage my money so that I can buy the things I desire. If that means buying from a franchise then I will do it. Here's an example, I buy car parts from a mail order speed shop in Ohio because, The price is lots lower and no shipping charges and no tax til the end of the year. I did buy some headers once from the local boys and paid $200 bucks more!! That won't happen again! What would you have done? I bet I know the answer. How many of you can say that they absolutely will not under any circumstances buy from a franchise??? If not then you shouldn't complain about them. Now having said that, a lot of business that are driven by cost savings will buy from the most logical source that will help them meet their goal.(Saving money) That's why Drive through sign companies do the business they do. As far as quality goes. You get what you pay for but sometimes you don't need a Rembrandt when Homer Simpson will do! As far as the fued between vinyl/paint goes... It seems to me that each has it's place. Go to an ISCA car show and count how many vinyl graphicized cars you see. NONE. ON the other hand Who would contract Craig Frazer to paint a window sign for them? Get my point?? Sometimes you folks need to try to see things from the customer's side. If you can't get along with each other in your trade, how do you expect to survive the franchise invasion? Go ahead I just put my official NHRA approved firesuit on!!! I'm ready for the flames now. Skip in Michigan
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Everybody buys from franchises, that's not the point. We are talking about trying to give as much business to the small operations as possible. Not just to help but because generally service is better and more personal. Let's not kid ourselves though, there are a lot of shoddy run small stores that it would be foolish to shop from. It's just that price is not going to be my only consideration when I shop. I can't believe that is your only criteria. If my customers shopped only price , I would be out of business. I believe I have plenty more to offer that gives them the reasons to keep coming back.
Posted by Skip Willis (Member # 2871) on :
Hi David Price isn't my only criteria for purchase. I do buy from some of the locals too. Depends on what it is I guess. As for service, I can only think of one time that the service was bad at a franchise. (Won't go into that) I can also name a few times that the locals have messed me over too. Don't get me wrong, I know where you guys are coming from and understand your frustrations. But the business that I'm in I get undercut and have had to learn to roll with the punches and see how the competition does things to keep the prices down. Somewhat of a challenge, win some loose some.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Skip,
Why did you take your Camero to Troxell for painting? Was it because they were cheaper than anyone else or was it because you trusted them to do the best possible job at a reasonable price?
Posted by Skip Willis (Member # 2871) on :
Hi Glen Actually, They were the only ones who would even talk to me about the flame job. I went first to a body shop that is supposed to be the "best of the best". They wouldn't get back with me. Second I went to a smaller body shop and he explained all the reasons why they couldn't do it for less than xxx amount of dollars.(I must look like I'm poor??) Third place I went to (small shop) they wouldn't even come to the door!!! Then I heard from a guy at work about Troxell. I didn't know he still was doing paint work. I ent out to his shop, (no sign or anything in front of the place) went inside and talked to one of the employees, looked at some pictures, set up a time, gave him a pic of what I wanted and 1300 dollars later I'm drivng around in flames. To be honest with you I have seen better flame jobs, and money wasn't an object for me to begin with. He just happened to be the only one in the area that acted like they wanted the work.(I was there last week and he's booked solid for the next few months) In my opinion that instance doesn't fall under the catagory of Mom and Pop's friendlier service attitude though because all the shops I went to were smaller ones. But I will let Tom Troxell do all my work from now on though!!!!
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I liked the flames and its paint too. Vinyl has no place on hot rods or street customs.
I buy from Summit and from locals when things are needed immediately for my ride. I rarely buy from Wal-Wal since Sam passed on, but will buy several pair of shorts there today cause of where I reside and 30 miles is abit far to travel to find a clothing store. As with some Americans, I buy American when I can and these days thats hard to do, even Toyota is made in Kentucky.
I am a consumer as well as a vehicle artist, I have 30 pairs of shoes and a well stocked clothing closet where everything has paint on it. Granted, I own a computer and the plotter keeps company with my clothing. I don't drive anything newer then 1972 or buy anything that won't last. I like to tinker and build tools that you can leave in your will.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
I personally support mom and pop shops as well as franchises. There's a place for everyone in this world. I'm also one that rarely if ever critisizes franchise sign shops. It just doesn't matter to me.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
No offense Donna....but if you had franchises on every corner within a couple miles of your shop, you might change your tune. Sure there is a place for everybody.....some places are just way more crowded. It sounds like where you live is not overly crowded. Am I right?
Posted by Robb Lowe (Member # 2121) on :
Perception is everything. Like a Rolex watch... it doesnt keep time any better than a Timex but there is a perception that it is special and worth the four digit price.
As a consumer, I see a franchise shop the same way I see a fast food restaurant. No BS, get close to what I want and I'm out of there. With a custom shop (i.e. - mom'n pop) I see a serious, artsy fartsy, detail oriented better quality but more time and cost. If I want a 'real' sign, I go to a pro, if I want a temporary sign with a basic message, I go franchise. I mean, why would I waste that talented signmaker's time and pay his professional rates, when I can get it at Burger/Sign King right now, and for cheap?
That's the perception. A better more effective product for jobs that call for it versus quick and dirty, but cheap.
For basic "FOR SALE" or "KEEP OFF GRASS" signs or "Stinky Bill's 40 Today!" banners, the perception is the franchise does that all the time and is more efficent. The other perception is they have zero to no creativity, they may cost a bit more but get it to me lickity split, and they are conveniently located in town on my way to somewhere else versus a special drive to a home, industrial park or other out of the way location of most real signshops.
Another perception is vinyl work can be done by any halfwit. I mean, you just type it in the computer and it comes out all purty... right? That can't take any talent, so that means $5 hour employees can do that, why should I pay a $50hr signmaker since he's just pocketing it all and getting rich rich rich! Plus, I (the consumer) feel bad that I'm wasting that artiste's time with my piddly sign, when they could be making masterpiece development signs or graphics on a racecar. Sigh. My "caution - slow men workin in trees" sign is just not worthy of such greatness.
The average 1-3 person sign shop has only a couple of chances of thriving. One, be great designers. Two, find a niche. Three, be a great salesperson and make strong relationships that no price war or flash in the pan can weasel in on.
If you're an average to poor designer or just capable of making stickers, it's best you have a regular job and if you must make signs, do it as a hobby. I cant imagine a vinyl only, mediocre design signmaker making a living anymore. UNLESS that person has a huge family, lots of friends and the one word that can make a mouthbreathing idiot the biggest in town - CONTACTS! Customers go with who they know 90 out of 100 times, and no talent or price can break that. Damn I hate that reality.
The franchises are only going to get worse, as they 'look fun' to people trying to get into a business. All one has to do is pick up a copy of 'get rich quick' type magazines on any rack, and you'll find a bunch of sign/t-shirt/embroidery/etc. business opportunities. It's artsy - and who doesnt like art? Compared to making sandwiches in a Subway or getting dirty in a 10-minute oil change (the other overflooded market) - you can see why a dullard who just received $100k in a car accident lawsuit would be attracted to a sign franchise.
My only surprise is how no one has snuck out the FastSigns sales book yet, and made it available to the world. I keep expecting it to show up on ebay any day. I'd like to read the sales books offered by the big franchises, but I'm not spending $80k to do it.
As a disclaimer, I'll say that I know there are some very talented franchise owners out there who bought into it as a business-expanding opportunity. But just like other stereotypes, the vast majority of franchise owners are as I described above.
[ June 01, 2002, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Robb Lowe ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
I'VE BEEN DOING SIGNS AND PISTRIPING AT THE SAME SPOT FOR 25 YEARS. I SPEND NOTHING ON ADVERTISING OR YELLOW PAGES, AND I'M IN A RESIDENTIAL LOCATION....NO SIGNS ALLOWED. I STAY GENERALLY BUSY, EARNING A GOOD LIVING, WITH A MORE THAN REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME OFF! WHEN I STARTED HERE, THERE WAS ONE OTHER SHOP....NOW THERE ARE 27! I'M DOING BETTER NOW THAN EVER, MAINLY DUE TO TECHNOLOGY IN ALL IT'S FORMS, AND THE LACK THEREOF, OF MY COMPETITION. BEING HERE A LONG TIME CERTAINLY IS AN ADVANTAGE, AS MY BUSINESS IS STRICTLY WORD-OF-MOUTH. I DO BETTER THAN AVERAGE WORK, AND GIVE AWESOME SERVICE, IF I DON'T SAY SO MYSELF. WE'VE HAD SIGN SHOPS COME AND GO, INCLUDING A SIGNS NOW AND A KINKOS. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS, AND I'M NOT EVEN SURE OF THE QUESTIONS! ALL I KNOW IS THAT WHATEVER I'M DOING WORKS FOR ME. HOOP-DE-DO!!!
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
I am a clone of the famous...
"Robert Burns.."
I am in Love with the Romance of this Art.....
I try to tell my customers why I will do it this way!
It not only makes them look Great! (But I Feel Great because of the Thanks that is given!)
Remember we don't walk long on this Planet but we like to leave our MARKS! Posted by Nevman (Member # 332) on :
There is a point that I see missing here.
Buying a popcorn machine or tires from a big box place doesn't make me any money.
My clients purchase signs from me because those signs will (hopefully) make them money. It is an investment in their company and their products.
If it costs them $ 100 (or $1000) more to buy a sign from me, and they have that sign advertising their business (or neighborhood or town) day-in-and-day-out for five to fifteen years, the cost consideration is litarally pennies a day.
If someone wants a "Homer Simpson" sign, I will gladly send them down the road to one of the drive-throughs; it costs ME more money to have to sell them a sign than it actually costs to produce one.
Purchasing a quality sign will always be the wise decision.
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
EDUCATING A CUSTOMER IS DAMN NEAR A LOST ART, AS IT MOSTLY FALLS ON DEAF EARS!
Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on :
I can remember sign folks complaining that the suppliers would sell paint and brushes to anyone,...Then there were the supporting complaints about poor layout,poor craftsmanship,unethical pricing,....slipshod production methods,...does any of this sound familiar???? Ok now we have the technology come along so anyone who can operate a computer and plotter can produce signage that appears to the public as good or better than any of the tedious efforts done by hand in years past,...At the time I was working across 3 states doing billboards on location and saw many a talented sign painter lay down their brushes and start sticking vinyl to painted plywood,....At the same time I saw people who just 5 years earlier would have not had a chance in hell of making a decent living in this business open and operate thriving businesses. As a result of this change in the nature of our trade I have also seen a trend towards a very small percentage if almost nonexistant number of trainees try to master the traditional methods of our trade. Probably due to the fact that they were not seeing the processes at work every day. The vast majority opt for the quick and easy way out learning the technology that can make the fast buck,...ie pushing a button on the keyboard and mouse,...and I personally don't blame them as that is where the quickest way is to make a buck right now,...however,...if it is the quickest and easiest way to do it then what makes us think that there will not be a flood of people trying to take the same course of action,...Will this trend change,..I think not,...if anything it will get horribly worse before it improves ,....Do we blame the franchise for our woes? I think not as they are only a new twist to an old game,....Seems I recall reading once about the old neon guys complaining the same way about the plastic sign cabinet folks in the early fifties,....By the mid seventies the neon trade was all but lost when it made a resurgance and neon demanded a premium price compared to other signage.Hopefully the laws of supply and demand will do that for premium brush work but I don't think I'm gonna hold my breath and or try to blame it on somebody else, just gonna play the cards I get dealt.
Posted by Mark Matyjakowski (Member # 294) on :
Are we arguing products or services ... stock merchandise or custom? If I need a kitchen faucet and W-Mart has it cheaper I may buy it there ... but will have a qualified plumber put it in ... not ask the guy with the blue vest stocking the plumbing isle. (actually I would put it in myself but you get my point) There are fine craftspeople that get into franchises for business reasons ... I don't think anyone here has a problem with those operations. The problem is clueless people with a pocket full of faces that want to own a business (any business) and say "hey signs are easy ... the franchise says so" ... hire a few minimum wage workers and away they go.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Well now, Timi has obviously been payin attention!
There have always been poor quality signs in this industry, there have always been those folks that would (fly by night, we called them)go around undercutting the established sign shops(the folks that paid rent and provided service, not just the lowest price).
Undercutting prices is not new to this industry, and didn't just arive with the advent of computers. How could someone who has overhead(shop in town with a sign out front, a telephone # in yell. pages, insurence, etc.) compete with someone working out of they're car, home, garage, etc. ?? Is this not still a fact in most all areas ?
Roger Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
The difference is WANT vs NEED.
Some people have already laid out a lot of cash to open a business and are pretty tapped out.. They'd rather not spend a ton of money on a sign cause they dont have the money to pay for it, but they realize they gotta have a sign out front.. They'll go to a franchise cause they can walk in and get what they want without the owner trying to teach them about layout, design, and they'll have it the next day.
They dont neccessarily WANT the sign to begin with, they're FORCED to get one... but they're gonna get it at the absolute minimal cost.
Other business owners realize the sign is a pretty important part of their business so they are willing to spend more on signage that sets them apart.. They gladly hand over the money because they WANT it, and they will go to the mom and pop custom sign place to get it cause thats the only place where they CAN get it.
Compare it to your vehicle.. when's the last time you hated letting loose of money for a repair? Let's say you slid in the rain and ended up goin over a curb and not only destroyed all the tires but bent all the wheels too. That'll probably cost ya $1200 to replace it all, and that's using CHEAP wheels and tires. Ya cant tell me you'd WANT to spend the money on that if you didnt HAVE to!
Let's turn the tables now.. your current wheels and tires are in great condition, but you picked up a Truckin' magazine and saw Boyd Coddington's newest 22" wheels.. you GOTTA have em, cause they're bitchin' lookin! Guess what? Those wheels are $1,000 EACH (no joke, they really are! and if you think that's expensive, I can show you a business selling their wheels at $9,000 each).. $4,000 for a set of wheels and you STILL need to get the tires.. which, in case you havent priced 22" tires, will be another $1600. You know $5600 is a lot of money for wheels and tires, but it's so cool lookin and they're really good products, so you are willing to spend it when you have the money to spend.
Now if two businesses offer the same exact product, there's no reason for anyone to spend more if they can get what they need cheaper. Black helvetica on corplast can be made at any sign shop. Why should a customer spend more at mom and pop's shop when they can go to the franchise place that's a mile closer, can do it that same day, and won't hassle them with design options or upgrades? This is where the niche comes in cause that seperates you from the rest. Customer Service only takes you so far, most people are reminded of voicemail systems when they hear those two words and they immediately clam up. Companies that include "Customer Service" in their ads are a joke. If they have to call attention to it, they probably don't offer it!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
roger, i work outa my truck, not my "trunk". i have a mobile sign shop, laptop computer, roland cutter, onan 6.5 kw gen. 300watt inverter. and an inventory of vinyl. I DONT UNDERCUT....i quote prices i can make a living at(with or without a permenent shop). and belive it or not...most of my income latly has been PAINTING SIGNS!!! imagine that!!!! iam with timi here....
Posted by Bill Cosharek (Member # 1274) on :
All I'm gonna say here is that Mark Smith of Estimate has created a free downloadable program called "Profit Watch". It is available at his website on the Merchants' page.
If the non-franchise shop uses this program & the franchised shop also uses it then there shouldn't be any problem; as long as both companies are making a profit.
The non-F can do the quick stuff also; but will probably offer to do a better looking version. What's the harm in asking? If they say no, then give them the quick version (with proper kerning & layout included, of course). That's no big deal.
Posted by Del Badry (Member # 114) on :
One time at a TrimLine get together, 3M gave a talk on paradigm (sp?) shift... and told the story of the swiss watch making industry, not understanding the introduction of a simple chip that texas instruments invented and the japanese jumped on to build digital watches.... the swiss scoffed at the idea, and in less than a decade, the industry was devastated.. however,,, the swiss have made a comeback in making quality watches....interesting comparisons to our business...
Posted by LEE ATTEWELL (Member # 2407) on :
I just wanted to make a comment on this. I am a one man operation, my trade was as a window tinter for eighteen years. Not a sign writer. I therefore can apply vinyl well over very large areas. I have a cheap plotter. I am purchasing an inkjet printer, I know next to nothing about digital printing(although I've had some great advice from this BB). I am in the lucky co incidence of having a qualified Graphic Designer who lives with me ( my wife). I am not an expert on almost anything, although I try my very best at whatever I choose to do.
I've given this rather candid expose of where I am so You all don't think that I'm something I'm not.
Now...Why can't you/we just give the bloody customer what they want?
If they approach you for a sign, find out their needs, and try to give them the very best you can while making a profit for yourself. Leave your ego's at the door, Ego isn't food on the table. If the customer is only interested in purchasing something too bloody cheap and nasty, If it can be worth your while to make it for them...Make it...If not...Don't let the door hit them in the arse on the way out.
Sorry I got on my high horse, I cherish this site and you people very much, and don't want to sound like I'm preaching.That's why I have put down where I'm at to give you an idea of my situation so I hope you can see my perception.
By the way...I've finally found what I should be doing, and plan to enrol next year to get some formal education on this game.
Cheers all
Lee
Posted by Skip Willis (Member # 2871) on :
I have one question for the vinyl guys. What all is involved in making a nice sign. Design it on the computer and send it to the cutter and then what?
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
Do NOTHING until you get a deposit! NO DEPOSIT....NO "NICE" SIGN! Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
The price gougers have been around as long as I have been in the business and they were there long before I started. Ask any old timer and they can tell you about how their town had a "Joe Wino" or "Whiskey Pete" and how some of them would actually letter a truck for a six pack of beer. The main difference today is numbers!!!!! Burns mentioned when he first opened his present shop there were two, now there are twenty seven. Now I don't know jack **** about Prescott but I would be willing to bet there is nowhere near thirteen times the demand for signs. The "pie" keeps getting cut into more and more pieces. It will effect everybody to one extent or another. As far as educating customers...that can turn into a full time job in itself. I prefer to deal with the ones that have already finished school.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Lee
You said one thing. (You work with the best Graphic Designer that you know!) Your wife.
Simple lettering on a board is one thing but with Design work it now is a different story.
Why do I want to up sell the customer? Becauce of that design they may become the next MicroSoft and I plan to be paid well for it.
I wish nothing but the best for the customer and hoping that my work for him brings in a ton of work on his part....
Image is very important these days to stay alive in this Dog eat Dog world...
All in all said if you like to flip out the quick and easy money maker work, it is not in the best interest of yourself or your customer..
Last but not least I want to make Heads turn...You as my competition and others asking who did that....
Thats why I think it is worth more and not less.
But as all here have said it is up to us to educate the customer as of why it is more.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Donna sums it up for me.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
George, good point and you can also see that Bob has created a niche he can excel at in Prescott: Digital printing. The number of sign shops may have gone up 13X but I doubt any of them are doing large format printing like Bob is.
Skip, after the vinyl is done on the plotter or printer, it's time for application or packaging it to ship it out. The important step here is the "Design it on the computer" part. The design aspect sets the masters apart from the wannabes, it doesnt matter if they're using vinyl or exotic woods or gold leaf. Good design is good design, and a computer is just a tool some use to get there. A computer doesnt make anyone a graphic designer although that's what seems to be happening.. if ya can't draw it with a pencil on paper, ya sure as hell aint gonna be able to draw it on a computer!
Posted by Skip Willis (Member # 2871) on :
Thanks Mike, now answer me this...Which would be FASTER, a good designer designing on the computer cutting on the plotter and laying it out on the vehicle or a good paint man drawing and taping out, then brush painting the same design by hand? (Given that both guys are masters and not just fly by nighters) Skip
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
SKIP: EASILY...THE COMPUTER!
Posted by Skip Willis (Member # 2871) on :
Thanks Bob, Now it's obvious how one can "undercut" the other and take away his business isn't it? Going back to my original post, Maybe the thing to do is see how the franchise does it and copy some of their techniques instead of getting bent out of shape(w/o sacrificing quality of course) Thanks for the posts all. Hope I haven't come across as an idiot, sarcastic jerk, or someone out to stir up trouble! Just trying to let you see another point of view. Skip
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Un-biased outsiders? are you sure your tuned into the right channel?
Interesting post tho...over the years I've seen no change in the opinions of the "sign trades" personnel...everyone that has little or no overhead (because they are working from home or out of their truck )and have little or no equipment (because they can't or won't invest in their own buissness)are complaining about the franchise shop that is located in the highest rent districts of any/all towns paying out the ridiculous franchise costs and payrolls for personell they (have) to maintain who are operating the highest cost, newest equipment available) are underpricing and producing an inferior product.
Hope everyone here was openminded enough to read the truth...
I have given up long ago worrying about what the other guy does...(I have little if no control over it)!
What I and everyone else here does have control of is what I do personally to make my business profitable. Thats what I concentrate on!
Oh and by the way...if they are "cutting" prices with "higher" overhead then the will take care of their own demise...and all of us outsider non-biased types can relax and have a good time doing what we do best.
Oh did I mention...I'm not a franchise...nor am I home based...nor am I working out of my truck...so I think it's safe to say...I'm an outsider! Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
OH my...I can't leave this one alone...
Have you ever noticed that the job that was undercut was the one you didn't get...So all the jobs you do get...be rest assured the guy in the franchise is hacked because you have "under cut" his prices...
Get on with your business...or he will!
[ June 02, 2002, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
MONTE'S RIGHT!
THE OTHER GUY IS ALWAYS GONNA DO WHAT HE'S GONNA DO. HE MAY BE A GOOD DESIGNER...A LOUSY BUSINESSMAN....FAST ON THE 'PUTER.....WHATEVER! FIND OUT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU ....THE HELL WITH EVERYBODY ELSE ! THEY'RE ALL TRYING TO DO WHAT'S GOOD FOR THEM ...SOMETIMES THEY MAKE IT....SOMETIMES THEY DON'T! THEY'LL COME AND GO AS OFTEN AS YOU CHANGE YOUR SHORTS....AND BELIEVE ME, THEY DON'T MUCH CARE HOW YOU RUN YOUR BUSINESS,AS IT HAS LITTLE OR NO EFFECT ON WHAT THEY'RE DOING. CUSTOMERS DO WHAT THEY DO,TOO! SOME LIKE YOUR PRICES...SOME DON'T...SOME BUY SIGNS FROM YOU....SOME DON'T! YOU HAVE TO GET ON WITH IT,LIKE MONTE SAYS!
Posted by Jeremy Vecoli (Member # 2278) on :
I have worked at a FastSigns, at a large commercial sign shop, and out of my truck at various times. I feel there is animosity between these groups, but in the end, they all have a right to be in business and try their best. It IS fair, even if it gets frustrating. When I worked at Fastsigns, I actually thought they were rather expensive, and the owner repeatedly said that always being the cheapest was a losing game in the end. I paint splashes on the side, and always tell customers that I am not the cheapest, but I will make sure they get good value for their dollar. I know another splasher who I always lose bids to, but if he wants to paint ugly splashes all day for nothing, that's his privelige. Sure, I wish he would leave town, but I have no right to restrict his right to support himself.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Skip had a question about who/which is faster--hand laid out paint or computer design/plot/vinyl. Bob B. replied "the computer" and no doubt he is right. The thing no one seems to have touched on is the materials cost of one versus the other. At least not in this thread.
Been a brush-hack most of my adult life--got in to vinyl only a few years ago.The greatest revelation was the way higher cost of vinyl for any given job as opposed to paint. Approximately $40 a roll of 15 inch by 10 yard premium cast. For that same $40, one can buy any number of the small cans of one-shot--an assortment of colors, and I guarantee that those little cans will make one a bunch more bucks than that one roll of vinyl.
Granted, it will take longer--and there is the rub --production speed is IMHO the only thing vinyl has going for it.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
How about this. A guy who paints cars and does it good may get $2500, $3500 heck even $5000 for a resto paint job. Earl Schibe will get what $250 for a paint job. If a person who should have gone to Earl Schibe in the first place because price is his main concern goes to that great painter, he's gonna go "what is up with that price, he's crazy, Earl Schibe will do it for $250". Both paint cars, both get lots of business but from a different clientele. One group worries about price, one worries about quality. A sign can be laid out and look good with paint or vinyl. Heck nowadays on some signs unless you are right up on it you can't tell what it's done with. If you do good work and you are a good businessman, you will get business. I do see a lot of kids doing vinyl but it is probably better for somebody who does really good signs. I like for people to get bad work somewhere else, it makes my prices seem more in line to somebody who thought they were higher and used mr. cheapo. One time, I lettered a vehicle of a business, 50 miles from my shop in their parking lot. The business that shared their paking lot and was in the building next to them was a graphics/sign shop. The guy that owned the graphics shop next door came over and asked the guy why he was letting me do his truck. The guy told him it was because he wanted his truck to get him business, not be "pretty" or "radical". I make my stuff look good but it is still very eye-catching and readable that guys stuff is all cursive or Rage/Stacatto fonts and really is hard to read. What is a sign or lettering for anyway, to attract business not just sit there and be pretty. His price was lower than mine but the guy saw my vehicle and was impressed so He asked me if I could do his truck. Felt good getting chosen over his own neighbor.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
THe thing that bothers me, is most customers cant really see the difference in signs, no matter who does them. I apply myself to every sign I do, whether it be a 4x8 with all the bells and whistles, or an 18x24 coroplast with one color vinyl. I use the same creativity and knowledge I have on each project I do. The cheaper work, such as signs on coroplast, etc. , are the ones I am really talking about. If I did an 18x24 for a customer an laid it up next to one done by someone with little experience in layout, some, not all, customers wouldn't recognize the difference. They are looking more at price, not good layout. With me, they get some of both. I won't "throw" a sign together no matter who it is, or what price it is. I make sure it looks like the rest of my work. I truly do like doing the high end work better, but sometimes I get some of the "cheap" stuff to do too. There are two other guys in town that do signs. They are print shops, and both do quite a bit of the coroplast, 040 metal, and decal work. I don't try to compete with them on price, and I have no idea what they charge. I just try to do my best on every job I turn out, and hope people keep coming back for the quality. I get along with both of the other shops I mentioned, and occasionally one of them helps me out, and I him. We both deal with the same supplier now, as I turned him onto Interstate Sign Supply, so when one of us goes to get supplies, we each pick up stuff for the other. Not being big headed here, but both of their work doesn't fall in the same category as mine. Neither even knows what Signcraft is or this site. THey dont really care. Its not what they are about, but it is what I am about. The same quality and experience on everything I do. Mike Stevens did it that way I am sure, and I really look up to him. And alot of the people on this board. Some legends in their own time.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
WHICH IS FASTER GUY WITH COMPUTER OR GUY WITH A BRUSH???????depends on what iam doin...18x24 coplast sign...computer hands down. single color signs up to 4x4..computer.. now a stock car, with 3 big numbers, 3-4 colors, 2-3 sponsors(without a logo) now my brush RULES!!!!!!aside from the cost of vinyl for theose big numbers, the PITA of hangin it, without bubbles or wrinkles....and the TIME TO LAYOUT, PLOT, WEED, TAPE....now mind you iam talkin A 1 MAN OPERATION....i can do the stock car from start to finish...in 3 -4 HOURS!!!!!! vinly would take 3 hours to get it all ready to apply!!!! and i can do the car for $125-200....and 90% of that goes in my pocket....look on the portfolio page, SPRINKLER....and tell me how much that woulda been in vinyl---"time and money".....i did it all in paint!
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I have had people who went with the cheaper guy come to me and say "I wished I had used you the first time", that feels good. I do a good bit of "customer education" in my flyers, ads and in my "in-person" sales pitch. It didn't take me long to figure out to do that. For instance I use opaque (if they have it in the color I'm using) coro-plas and really good stakes on most of my small coro-plas signs, there is a cheapy 18X24 right up from my house and I use it as a selling point. It has about 4 or 5 lines of 1/2" tall letters, a step stake and almost transparent coro. I also carry a sample of a cheapy like that around and a good one like I try to make to show prospective customers. I also use mostly non-wood boards for my big signs and I carry samples of it all around plus a book full of pictures of my work. I will explain the layout of the signs in it to my potential customer. I also explain the difference in cast and calenderd vinyl and each ones expected life, then I let them decide which one they want to go with. Most choose cast but a lot of new business choose cal. just because they figure that they will change signs in a couple of years if they do good anyway. I like knowing that these "educated" customers are going to my competion and asking them "do you use opaque coroplas? what guage aluminum do you use? Would you make my sign out of Fiber-Corr or Alum-Corr or what? Would you be using cast or cal. for that price? For that price am I getting Step-Stakes or a real sign stand? I wish my competition would do the same, 99% of the time a customer I have "educated" will get the job nowadays.
Posted by taurus signcraft (Member # 572) on :
there is lots here that i agree with and i guess the variables come down (as always) to individual localities (as was mentioned) and to your own perception (as was also mentioned)
gee i'm agreeable today
i have gone into the local francise shop in my area, asked as i was to train their workers to use the machinery they bought when they first set up shop.
what i found suprised me. yes, the decision to open a sign shop was purely a finacial one for these folk but, is that always a bad thing? we all need to make money to live
i know a lot of very talented tradesmen who are not good business people, on any given day i can guarentee that i will more than likely make at least one bad business decision, if not lots!
the prices i saw being quoted looked fine to me for what they did there. and the best part was that everyone who came to pick up a sign bought their money with them... seems that buying from a slick instant type shop meant that you dont expect credit, i liked that
the paint verses vinyl debate is endless and i for one charge about the same for work done with them. paint stock will cost me less to buy than vinyl but the time factor is greater in the finished product so it evens out, for a lot of the simple work that is the bread n butter of most shops
a lot of the time i find it more satisfying to work with paint and if the time is available then thats my first choice
we use a 4 tiered price structure which allows for lots of choice so that customers can decide and ballance price and style of work done. sumtimes that means they walk out having agreed to a higher price than they had originally thought their work would cost, but they always leave knowing exactly what they are going to get for their money... educating customers would have to account for the majority of time spent with them initialy
i see that information sharing as something that is as much a part of my job as design or application of product.
people come to us to be informed and supplied, just like i go to a motor mechanic to find out what is wrong with my car and have them fix it, or call the builder in to inform me of my options with a renovation or extention.
customers aren't signmakers.... we are! we know stuff and have talents that they dont have, that what their $$'s buy
as donna & nettie said, i to dont give much (if any) thought to the other shops in our area, just as customers dont set my prices nor do my competion.
the work i dont need are the jobs that either dont make any money or have annoying difficult customers attached to them
having said that, eveyday brings with it the opportunity to make bad business decisions, and i frequently take that option, if for no other reason than s*@t happens!
this job we all love so much is not an exact science (if it was everyone would do it)especially when we are sumdays good tradspeople but other days less than efficiant business people
the only thing i do know for sure is that everyone has the right to make a living, and that we all have to start somewhere, the rest is up to the individual
cheers gail
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Cheryl, you are wrong. There are loads of sign shops in my area. Why it doesn't bother me is that I don't even really regard them as competition. I could care less who they service.
But then I'm probably doing biz on a different angle than most. I'm not the sole provider of my family, so I'm not striving to make the largest dollars I possibly can. I'm servicing my regular clientelle that have been calling me for years, and I'm busy enough with that. Why they keep coming to me and don't wander off, only they can answer for sure.
When I had my storefront, I had a sign shop 1 minute from me. It didn't bother me in the least, in fact I liked it. I could see who they were servicing by who was parked in their lot. They were not my customers. I also enjoyed seeing them working on weekends when I was driving around with my son on a day off. LOL!
Now if these signshops were directly taking away my current business, I'd be going to those customers asking why they've converted over. If it was soley on price, I'd wish them well and bid them farewell. My target customers are not tirekickers. I'd rather be with my son.
This is my own perspective on my own business. I'm in no way dictating how someone else should feel, so I ask that the same respect be returned to me.
Posted by David Fisher (Member # 107) on :
Accoring to the experts, nature hates a vacuum. Meaning that if there is a niche then it will be filled. Find your niche and fill it and stop worrying about who is up who. David
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
hi Donna. First of all I think it's great you aren't bothered by the franchises. They only bother me when I get underbid for a job I really wanted to do ! and then YEP! I get mad! Secondly, I did a search...for Abbotsford it shows 7 sign shops listed. For my small town (outside of Seattle) there were 53, the first ones listed were all franchises. I know all shops were not listed for your town or mine. For Seattle there were literally hundreds! upper hundreds. But to put it in perspective, Seattle is only 10 minutes away from me. Hopefully your area will stay the way it is. It looks like it is beautiful there.
[ June 03, 2002, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: cheryl nordby ]
Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :
just had a lady call and wanted to know what i would charge to letter a 4x4 that she had painted with latex and it would have 27 letters on it. i told her around $75 and she told me she could get a banner with 12 inch letters for that amount. told her go for it. i may go to bed tired or i may go to bed hungry but i aint going to bed tired and hungry.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Cheryl, in Abbotsford there are 50 listed in our yellow pages. I'd say Seattle better compares to Vancouver, which is an hour away from me. All you implied was that in my area there probably weren't that many. Well, 50 in my area is alot and enough to do plenty of damage.
I'd rather not be challenged into answering if that's ok. Please feel free to email me direct anytime if you'd like to direct something to me. I prefer to be a part of more generalized type discussions on the bb.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Great contribution Gail, very weel said!
Roger Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Donna. I didn't mean to upset you. I was just trying to convey there really IS a difference depending on where you are located. It is just like real estate. The economic characteristics of real estate. Scarcity....area preference etc. Location DOES matter. Sure we all like to think we are masters at our trade and that silly things like franchises don't bother us in the least. It is very interesting to me to see just how many other sign shops really are close by. It is also refreshing to see that sometimes others see what is really happening. Maybe not yet in your neighborhood, but most likely someday soon. Like Dave Draper mentions in his post how he is preparing himself for what seems like a probable happening in the sign business, which none of us are exempt from.
have a great day!
Posted by CJ Allan (Member # 52) on :
The greatest thing about this whole thread is that Bob Burns actually typed out a response in BOTH..........UPPER & lower case.!!
It has been worth glancing through all this just to experience such a phenomenon........Truly something to be praised by ALL !!
"Hold on 'lizebeth...this might be the BIG one..!!
.........cj
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
"I'm SO-O-O-O-O talented"! I can actually chew gum and walk at the same time! AMAZING!
and CHERYL.....you're getting so diplomatic! You may just bypass the O.F. stage coming up (private joke, folks)!
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I had a guy the other day tell me they might start doing vinyl in my town, I've seen their work and I hope they do, it'll boost my reputation for doing good looking work, that way I'll be able to charge more cause I'll be the guy to call for decent looking work.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
LOL ....I know BOB. Diplomacy is not one of my virtues. I am workin' on it tho as you can see. Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
Not to jump into this one, but just one note...
I live near Nettie and can assure you that she is surrounded by dozens of franchise shops...and seems to be doing very well for herself with her immense talents.
And she's good lookin, too! Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
LOL, CJ!!
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Franchise shops have been around a long time.
Stay on top of your business by educating yourself, stay on top of your education by going to meets that pertain to what it is that you do, not just sign shows where new products are being shown. Every business has its place, stop worrying about every little thing, charge accordingly. Try not to bid on jobs, try getting them by putting out work which attract customers who will want your work and not your bids.
Conquer one thing at a time, do what you do best and go on from there.
Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :
quote: Which would be FASTER, a good designer designing on the computer cutting on the plotter and laying it out on the vehicle or a good paint man drawing and taping out, then brush painting the same design by hand? (Given that both guys are masters and not just fly by nighters)
I thought I would add to Joe P.'s comment. I can easily see a brush letterer doing a stock car faster than a computer person. And it will have more pizazz. Casual strokes, two-color letters, etc., fast and loose, not worrying about compound curves. And, who would consider splashing windows with vinyl? Or making paper banners with vinyl, which can sometimes be lettered in seconds with a brush? A decent shocard can be done in 45 minutes and it looks like a shocard should. Vinyl takes longer and will always look very out of place on a card. Many design operations may take longer on a computer depending on the program used. It's a mistake to think that 'computer' is always faster.
Brad in Kansas
Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)