Ok………..this may seem quite rudimentary, but its got me thinking overtime.
This is a very simple sign ( no design critiques required for this one) but it doesn’t seem to have a simple price. If I were to price this sign out using all the minimum billing charges it would come in quite high. This is a ¾” - 24” x 48” painted MDO c/w cast vinyl lettering/border. (I used scrap MDO, but still charged @ 1/8 of a finished 4x8 sheet).
Design = $65.00 min. Shoptime = $65.00 min Material= $66.00 Installation= $65.00 min
Total $261.00
Of course this is out to lunch, but even if I cut the work time component in half, (which would be realistic, but tight) to $97.50 then add the materials @ $66.00…………this sign is now 163.50. I was thinking I’d charge him $150.00…………I think he’ll still think I’m stiffing him.
This is why I have a hard time doing stuff like this…………..when I do really nice stuff, I have no problem looking them in the eye, and demanding a solid fair price.
and you got to consider........this guy has given me other work, and possibly more in the future.
Maybe you just got to eat it some times.
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
HaY John,
The key is knocking out several at once. You can charge with the 4x8 method of measurement.
It was, somebody would keep you busy with these right and left and you could pull em outta yer butt faster with a prep guy and somebody at the easel with a brush and a mahl stick. Now, the materials are out the wazoo in cost and time is more money...but it takes more time to get things done when yer doin lots of different things.
You can get into a routine, like ordering on mondays, prep on tuesdays after first thing am delivery, painting on wednesday and then delivery install on thurs. That leaves friday for cashing checks and hitting chat to say hi to all your buddies in the biz. Is it supposed to be harder than that? LOL.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Are you sure that's 48"x24"? It looks like 48"x12".
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
you can't charge a "minium" of an hour on every part of a job -- the minimum in on the "total job". (in other words, you'd still sell it for your minimum if the customer brought you the letters and the substrate...)
if you were ONLY doing the design, then you could charge for the minimum on design.
otherwise, you've got 15 minutes (tops) on design, 15 minutes of production to load, cut, weed and apply the vinyl, and then the cost of the MDO. If you're using pre-painted MDO, then all you really need to do is cut and treat the edges.
The "Sign Contractors Pricing Guide" for 2001 comes in at $97 for a one-color, 4 sq ft plywood sign with vinyl lettering. They suggest $91 for a simple hand painted sign. I don't think they're including any edge treatment, so that's probably another $50 to sand the edges and give them three coats.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
for once glenn and i agree...it looks like 12" x 24" or 24" x 96". and with my way of figurin price it should be a 24" x 96". 2 x 8=16, 16 x $10= $160 plus instalation. and you are gettin top dollar for this one....at $5 a sq.ft. it would sell for $80.00 plus install. any sign i sell at $10 a sq.ft. is profitable.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Am I going senile and getting confused....or...have people's math skills gone down the drain???
1. 24x48 = 1/4 sheet of MDO...or 1/8 sheet of MDO = 12x24...which is it?
2. 1/8 sheet of MDO @ $66 = $528/sheet (10X markup on scrap?)
3. 1/2 hour to design + 1/2 to cut, weed and apply on prepainted MDO?
I have to agree with Ol'Paint on $10/sq ft for a simple "knock out" sign! Otherwise, you have some serious internal problems with your shop/work habits!!!!!
And some people wonder why "Quickie Shops" are taking away all their business!
Just my $1.06 worth (shop rate for typing time) Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Yeah I kinda have to agree. I don't classify this as a 'design' . A design to me is a layout where it takes some time. Logo...lettering....scrolls etc. This probably took 5 minutes. Yours is a nice clean looking sign, but no design fee would be charged from me. My price guide tells me 159.00. Not installed. Looks like approx. 12x48 to me. But then what do I know.......
[ May 29, 2002, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: cheryl nordby ]
Posted by John Martin Robson (Member # 1686) on :
Sorry folks........my error.
12" x 48"........not prefinished either.
I had to cut, edge, & paint (3 coats)
2 other things that need to be considered.
1. price is in Canadian dollars 2. consider where I live....30% higher living/working costs to southern market.(Alberta)
Glenn's price would be about $217.50 Canadian
Posted by John Martin Robson (Member # 1686) on :
Si
3/4" MDO 12" x 48" custom made, plus vinyl (cast) plus I'm going to install it.
I guess my point is.......It's tough to make top dollar on a job like this..........without looking like you are stiffing the customer.
There is nothing wrong with my pricing.......its just that a job like this comes at a premium.
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
You're looking at the actual time and material cost involved in making this sign, and you don't think you're making a dollar on it?? If you deduct your actual overhead from those $65 shoptime I think you would get away with a pretty decent hourly wage, even in the north.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Just to clarify something, in my "Hard Numbers" pic you'll notice the "Design Labor" expense of $29.71. In using EstiMate, I have it set as a default to 30 minutes regardless of what I do. This 30 minutes is to cover my overhead for the time I spend talking to the customer, doing any necessary paperwork,and making out an invoice.
Since the layout John has is pretty much a no-brainer, I didn't add any additional time to the "Design Labor".
Regardless of what you do or how much time it takes to do it, I firmly believe that the customer must pay for everything.
[ May 29, 2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on :
I have to agree with Glenn here,...if you go to a doctor for anything other than a normal checkup he is gonna charge you for each and everything he does/supplies be it time or services.The same for any other proffession and or trade.Granted some things can be included in our service charges and not necessarily itemized but in the end the customer pays for a service to produce a custom product and or maintinance.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
My first thought on this would be that on a job this basic, your customer deserves a price up front. Then you could tell them that if they don't want to spend $260 or even $160 for such a basic sign, that you could use a banner for $50 & they could get a staple gun & install it themselves. Or a coroplast sign would look exactly the same from 50 feet, probably outlast wood 10 to 1 against rain & termites. Sell that for $75 & you do the staple gun, nail, or construction adhesive for $25 (plus travel time if any). Or you could offer them 1/4" PVC as another alternative that could save you more production time painting then your additional material costs.
I've explained to my customers how simple signs can get expensive based on the several steps that would be needed, & sometimes get them to buy 2 or 3 to bring down unit cost. Also I might offer a larger sign with the name or price of the carwash & only add $25-$50 for additional material cost. At least if they are going to be upset with a price it's better that they know before the work is done. The only jobs I wait till completion to figure time & materials is for unusual hard-to-bid challenges being done for very trustworthy clients.
[ May 29, 2002, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
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