yeah....you heard me. I just lost a job to them due to 'my prices were too high'. I had a nice layout....(no I didn't give it to the customer) I was fast and friendly. But TOO EXPENSIVE. Now this will be interesting to see what the signs look like. Most work I have seen from them sucks. (Yeah Steve......go ahead. Delete this post.) I am just ****ed. Going to go jump on the trampoline.....yeah might have a brewskie later tonight too. Boy......talk about sign companies needing to raise their prices! Get a f*@~!*@ clue sign franchises. Oh and as far as giving a freebie now and then......some of these stupid sign companies GIVE their sh*t away daily. Go ahead.......work your butts off. No wonder your work sucks. You have to do each sign so fast because you didn't CHARGE enough. GET IT?
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
CHERYL.... DON'T MINCE WORDS!....TELL US HOW YOU REALLY FEEL! DON'T YOU JUST LOVE THE "FAST FOOD" SIGN SHOPS? IT'S A WALMART WORLD WE'RE MOVING INTO. DON'T GET ME STARTED!
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
So, do we put you down as being "Undecided"? Maybe you could make up a special little window decal that reads "Half-Fast Signs" for Half-Wits. I'd be willing to bet that if you stuck one on their storefront, they wouldn't even notice it for several days.Heck, they might even adopt that as a franchise slogan!
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
And it just keeps getting better!! I go an e-mail this week, about writing a business plan for a guy in Atlanta thinking about opening a sign bizzzness there. When I asked about his experience, he said he and his partner were thinking of opting for a deal through SignWorld and didn't need any experience. He also stated that his brother was going to take a crack at writing the plan. Go for it. Watch out Atlanta, here comes another success story!
Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
I think I'm in love... Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Cheryl
Well I guess we can welcome you to the Real World!
Dust off the Dandriff and Walk On...
Now for your next Project.... I hope it's Bigger and Better then they can ever Handle!!!!!!
Look Boss the Plane!!!! Smiles everybody (SMILES!)
Got to add one here... Posted by CJ Allan (Member # 52) on :
Cheryl's definatly my kinda girl........
............cj
Posted by Ron Helliar (Member # 398) on :
[ July 03, 2003, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Ron Helliar ]
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
I've been making signs for 27 years Stephen, in the 'real world'. And I don't have dandruff, thank you very much. I just get tired of dumb asses. They all need to go off to some big island and underbid each other and see which one can make the UGLIEST sign. They all suck. Just get them out of Seattle. sheesh. We fricking need MORE helvetica red on white around here. Bring it on man.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Just for you, Cheryl.
(Thanks to Chuck Davis for his graciousness)
SignBusiness Magazine, April 2001 issue.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Got an Island in mind for your idea. Kaho'olawe was used exclusively for bombing practice. There are no people there & not much vegetation, and a minimum of un-exploded live ordnance. Probably a little room for Brush script caps! (on an arc)
Posted by Roy Frisby (Member # 736) on :
Whoooweee! You go girl. I know you have some Southern Belle in you! Maybe you should just go kick their a... Have a great Memorial Day weekend!
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
Don't you like it when you price a sign say using just for example .080 aluminum with High Performance Vinyl and somebody else beats your price because they used .026 with calendered. I use what material the job calls for to last. I hate guys who undercut and don't care if a sign is there in a year or not. I have also seen a lot of young kids getting cutters just because they saw the "Fast And The Furious", they want start cutting car graphics in their mama's garage and then they think they can do signs too. I can't remember where I was at but I even saw a Sign/Produce stand the other day. About franchises, I worked for one a long tome ago (not a sign franchise) who's advertising gimmick in the classifieds of the buisness and investment mags was "why put your money in the uncertainty of stocks when you can invest in a restaraunt". I saw people who had no knowledge of that industry getting tossed in and turned loose and if they fell flat on their faces, oh well, at least we got their franchise fee! I know that I haven't been doing signs for too long but I have done art stuff since I was a kid, I am really good with tools and building stuff and I really do want to be in this for the long haul so I really care about what I put out even if it takes me a little extra time and effort.
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
GET THIS!.....WE HAVE A BARBER SHOP HERE THAT DOES LETTERING WITH A LAPTOP, CORELDRAW7, AND AN 8"ROLAND PLOTTER!!!!!!
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Geez I need a beer. I will be back later. Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I hope that barber shop doesn't ever have to do several 4 X 8 signs quick. I have a 12" Stika just for doing car tags at fairs and I couldn't bear the thought of that being my only cutter. As a matter of fact it bothers me so much that if my 24" machine was to croak, it would, that I am going to buy another plotter at least a 24" for a just in case machine. I think that a lot of those kids and the such don't even have a clue about the materials that they are using or how long they last let alone how to apply them correctly.
Posted by FranCisco Vargas (Member # 145) on :
One ice cold BREWSKY coming up! It's a 24 oz 'er From the way you sound you could knock it out in one shot. Hey don't let no one get you down, it happens to all of us. Even though I hate it too when that happens!
Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on :
It ain't how ya git knocked down in this ol' world that counts Cheryl,...It's how ya get back up,...
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
You'd better make that a MARGARITA! Doesn't sound like the beer's gonna do it!! LOL
Relax, have that drink...IT'S FRIDAY!!!!!!!
Have a great weekend Cheryl. Thank your lucky stars you're not here - it's damn near 100º today with no end in sight. I'm off to the pool, then BBQ some sea bass and have that aforementioned margarita.
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
my revised "quickie-signs-24-7" motto: 24 min./hour, 7 hours/day, 24 days/month, 7 months/year. hey wait aminute that doesn't sound so bad!!!
some comfort in knowing that I'm not the only one who gets frustrated at people comparing apples to canaloupes.
stopped by a new bank yesterday just to visit with the bank prez, introduce myself, present a business card, offer any of my services... the guy just about shook my hand off, he was glad that I took time out of my day to stop by... he needed a banner just like the one he has been borrowing from another branch, nothing much to look at: a 4'x10' ugly maroon with two lines of helvetica copy and a poorly cut, jagged image of a computer mouse. He had to know how much, how much, HOW MUCH???? I just priced it based on my standard sq.ft. price:($6/sq.ft.) with better graphics,fonts, layout, ropes, etc. The guy just about fell over! THAT MUCH!!!, that sounds WAY HIGH!!! I didn't budge on my rate...he went on to inform me that the other branch only paid about $100 for the 4'x10'-- oh well, let THEM have that job!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I feel your pain. The SignsNow franchise here is offering custom 3x8 banners for $50.
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
True Story
Friend of mine had a "Quickie-Stickie" open near him. He ha d a phone call from them asking if he could spare some vinyl glue as none had been in cluded with their first shipment
hahahahahhahahahahahhaha
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
How do those guys make any money paying for supplies, overhead and the usual plus the biggie FRANCHISE FEES? Also, they are usually in an overpriced shopping center. I guess they must get their supplies for a 10th what we all are paying for them.
Posted by John Smith (Member # 1308) on :
When my good friend Ricky Jackson was in Warner Robins, GA.... he had a big advertisement ad painted on his wall about Earl Shibe... the shiftless car salesman.... It says... I will paint any sign for $99.00 !! Well, it was done in jest. But, in todays fast moving, money-hungry world.... talent and good products sort of fall off to the ditch for the cheaper price. It is a real shame that the talented folks such as yourself have to suffer to those that want the bottom dollar products. We all feel your pain !!
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
OURSIGNS NOW FRANCHISE HERE WENT OUT OF BUSINESS! SO DID KINKO'S! I GUESS THE BARBER SHOP UNDERBID THEM!
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Well....I am sitting here having my brewskie..and prit near spit the whole gulp out. Bob you are a funny one. Thanks fer the laugh! Haw haw haw!Good one. Yeah....you are all fun. Let's have a party. (psssst BOB....party is at YOUR place!)
[ May 24, 2002, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: cheryl nordby ]
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Cheryl.....I'll have one of my "old Country" cousins ship you a bomb that you can toss into their front door!
[ May 24, 2002, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
par T!....par T!.....par T!!!!! HEY CHERYL..... I TAKE MY PARTYING SERIOUSLY! YOU BRING THE CHIPS & DIPS, AND I'LL SUPPLY THE AMBER BOCK!
Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :
"Breath people, Breath"!!!!
Hey Cheryl.....
Happy Birthday..Cisco, mi amigo. Posted by John Lennig (Member # 2455) on :
Cheryl, take comfort in the fact that you.re in one of the best States in the Union for
Posted by John Lennig (Member # 2455) on :
Cheryl, TAKE COMFORT in that YOU'RE IN ONE OF THE FEW best states in the union FOR awesome microbrew!
Don't let the buzzards grind you down!
John / BIG TOP Graphics
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
CHERYL... i feel your pain..got a SIGNS NOW HERE....i think the guy workin there does stuff without makin recipts....and sticks the money in his pocket....without lettin the owner know.... does stuff way to cheap
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
Ahh, my Friday is over. Had too much wine & beer & pinchos (shiskabobs) & junk food. I just thought I'd jump in & see how far this post would get.
Don't worry about it babe. Monday's around the corner.
G'nite!
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Cheryl,
I've been biting my lip on this one for 6 years now. I just spent a week takin digital photos, picking letterstyles and jumping through hoops between a husband and his wife on this. Plans included a Virgin Mary and a giant market place mural. Long story short..."We found someone who speak spanish and do it for way less that you said."
When they ask me if I can beat it, I tell them I don't do anything for $25. When they ask if they can pick it up 5 minutes, I tell them it takes me more than 2.5 minutes to produce it, and that it has to dry overnight. I'm not trying to be a smart ass or be negative, it's just that I didn't jump into the vinyl game and that seems to blow off all the paying customers...me not being convenient or proficient.
One thing I haven't tried is, passing out cards with George in tow, LOL. I could "explain" that if I can't afford to feed him, I may have to turn him loose. <mischievous grin> (I was trying to laugh at myself here, we all know I'm not totin a canine bear to somebody's business) LOL
*George, Donna knows him as Pookie. He grew to be 120 pounds, he's half lab, qtr. chow and qtr. rott.
I hope you get to unwind from this, it's chappin my butt! Ya got another beer over there? I'm lookin for my car keys, LOL. Do you like to play pool? It allows me a chance to hit stuff, LOL.
[ May 28, 2002, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Hi Cheryl!
How's your head this morning?
I think Timi has the right attitude, here. Blowing off steam with your friends in Letterville is fine (and good) but it won't help you solve the problem.
The reality Franchises / franchise owners aren't really the problem...they're just a symptom -- a "sign of the times". The reality is that (no matter what business you are in) eventually, way too many competitors will be fighting it out; the market will become oversupplied, pricing and margins will drop, etc. To maintain or improve your position in the market, each of you need to constantly be finding new ways to add value.
Taking stock of your value added Your talent, experience and skill as Letterheads is of value to your customer (though they may not always know it) because the signs you create for them attract new customers and say a good deal about their values, as a business. However, if all of that were enough, "quickie stickies" (as you call them) wouldn't be cause for concern.
I am all for Letterheads being the keepers of the quill and the guilder's tip (in fact, when I finally make it to a meet, I want to learn to carve and paint and guild) but all of you should strongly consider what other ways you can find to add value for the customer...
When was the last time you took a marketing or sales course? Knowledge truly is power. Acquire the knowledge and skills to develop a deeper understanding of what your customers (and the market) needs. This gives you the facility to develop SMART strategic plans to target and deliver the most effective solutions; to the most profitable market segments - and to close the most profitable sales...so what are you going to do with all of this profit?!
Reinvest in your business Forego the "toys" as much as possible...that new pick-up won't make you more money. Plan (and budget) to get ahead -- and stay ahead -- of the technology curve. Invest in the technology that will deliver the fastest ROI and plan to re-invest within 12-36 months (technology cycles keep getting shorter). Plan to keep taking courses in things like colour management and Adobe Illustrator (or whatever).
Choose your business partners wisely Who do you buy from and why? Consider developing partnerships with industry leaders: the vendors who invest in constantly finding new ways to add value...the guys who are the innovators and experts in your market applications (technology, materials selection, marketing)...the guys who believe that "Your success is our success". These organizations offer your business a good deal more than simply "me too" products, at "low, low prices".
Sorry for "soapboxing"...strongly held views on my part.
[ May 25, 2002, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Jon has it exactly right. Expecting the world to see our intrinsic value is fruitless. I lose bids to these companies every month, but I still sell some nice jobs in the process also. The types that keep them coming back because they can't get it from the others. Everyone has to develop a niche. Hopefully one that will continue to provide for us long into the future.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Hey friends. My head is fine. I only had one beer.(one in each hand) I can't handle more than 2.
As far as all this franchise stuff......I don't dwell. I get over it real fast. It is one of those cases of...."I don't wanna be like them" However I DO get fired up for a 1/2 day or so!
UPDATE: The Customer just called me and was sorry over and over again (and again)! She said her husband was who ordered from FastSignsaJokeShop. She is going to call me Tuesday to make a round front sign, another banner and A-Board as she LOVED my designs. She also said she cut her husband off. (didn't want her to elaborate on this, but he deserves it)
Thanks for all your support!
Have a great weekend.
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
HEY CHERYL.... IF IT DOESN'T WORK OUT,,,,,,I CAN RECOMMEND THIS BARBER I KNOW........!
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I think it's time to make a new 3D level for the game "Quake".. I could call it "Sign Franchise Alley".. and model the first person shooter character after Cheryl... then she could run through the streets and blow the crap out of all the franchises without getting tossed into jail.
Posted by Robin Sharrard (Member # 388) on :
Cheryl, I could share a few beers with you...just saw a post on another Bill Board showing a picture of a FASTSIGNS shop that had installed screen printing equipment and was offering quick turn around on screen printed signs and banners. It never ends! Our local Beer Distributer has been doing free banners and small graphics to all his retailers and now he's going after the car clubs and race tracks. It's time to break out the hard stuff cus the beer just ain't maken it! Robin
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
I'm starting to get this feeling that there is probably alot of sign franchises that lurk around here. God forbid, some of them may even charge the appropriate amount of $$ for their work....and better yet, may even have some design skill. But, unfortunately they will probably never be able to speak up out of fear that they will get completely flamed.
No offense intended, but it is kind of a shame.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Bruce you could possibly be correct. However if you are going to be in the game of signs...then play fair. Don't send out work that looks like every other job. Don't underbid every job. I am sure there are sign franchises that do nice work. I just haven't met any yet. If they are out there......post your work and stand up for yourselves. Be proud of what you do!
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Spoken like true Letterheads!
I know plenty of very nice and very capable Franchise owners in Canada. I have no idea if any of them "lurk" here or not, but I would like to see them speak up if they do.
Posted by Frank Weidman (Member # 3004) on :
Hello from the new guy, just wanting to add something real quick here. I have been designing for about a year now seriously and my work is great because I love what I do. Now when the customers see the design they love it, but (there is always a (_!_) somewhere) The one shop I was going thru was a get rich and cut corners guy (my only mentor), (good thing I know value) I learned so much from his mistakes that I know that the good majority of customers want craftmanship and will pay for what it is worth. Again I just want to say also that i really love this place and i have learned alot just reading from you all and absorbing so much knowledge. Maybe one night the lil green guys will come and vaporise the franchises and take the barber back to their planet. (<>(<>(<> .. <>)<>)<>)
Posted by Mark Neurohr (Member # 2470) on :
Hey Cheryl,
BEER ME!! Posted by Scott Moyer (Member # 1433) on :
Fastsigns and other franchise shops should be the least of our worries, I heard a rumor that the biggest orange home center with 1300 stores is going to sell signs and truck lettering in their stores they are going to start a pilot program by the end of 2002 and hope to have all their stores up and running by 2005 of course they will have the best of everything equipment wise fantastic marketing and 90% of their customers [and ours] will walk thru their doors everyday. I think the mom & pop shop days are over. Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Scott - don't loose any sleep over that big orange store putting us all out of business. Mom and Pop will continue to do well - they just won't have to deal with all the cheapskates.
Sam's Clubs tried to same thing with magnetic signs and bannners and we are all still in business.
Sure, they will get some folks to buy their signs, but just because they have the latest technical gizmos they stil won't have what the folks here have inside their brains. Remember, computers can't think and they can't make signs. It takes a person to tell them what to do.
Over the past 40 plus years I have heard every kind of wolf cry that is possible and yet, here I am, still in business, doing more work then ever, and more than doubling last years gross sales for the first four months of the year....and doing less signs.
In my estimation, the only advantage that we have over those whom you have described is the ability to design. As Glenn says, "design is the difference"...or whatever it is that he says. If you try to compete on price you will loose every time, but compete on design and you have the upper hand at every turn.
The sky isn't falling.
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
Even if the big orange monster gets into the game...it's apples and oranges, if even that close.
It's like the food business. You can go to McDonald's or another one of these fast food places or you can go out for a nice meal. You're not going to pay $4.69 for a nice meal in a restaurant with a tablecloth but you get what you pay for.
It's the same thing with signs. Let the yahoos who are looking for another "red helvetica on a white background" go to the franchises. Yes, I know that there are bills to be paid and the franchises are taking money out of your pocket but there really are clients out there who know the difference and are willing to pay for a decent quality product.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I think that if the big O gets into the biz, it'll hurt the franchise shops more than it'll hurt us "mom'n'pop" shops. They will have to draw from the same labor pool as the franchise shops for one thing. And, if the service isn't there, neither will the customers no matter what the price.
In the meantime, something that many "Mom'n'Pop" shops will have to do is diversify. And since they can't do everything, it will be important to be able to farm some jobs out. It might be sandblasted signs or pens'n'pencils, but it will help level out the economic rollercoaster ride many shops experience.
Look ahead, learn, anticipate, plan and grow.
[ May 25, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
Some see the glass half full while others see it half empty. Something witty should probably follow that but I’ll just ask you to read the tag line below the name and call it a day.
Posted by Colleen Henderson (Member # 906) on :
I've considered myself to be a Letterhead since I attended my first meet back in 1985 and I try to get to a Letterhead or Walldog meet yearly, but I also chose to buy a sign franchise. The franchise bashing on this site gets a little annoying - obviously your cities & towns are much different than the city I live in. In my city it is the small one man shops that give the work away. Why would you worry about a franchise giving work away when in most cases their overhead expenses are much higher than yours and they'll be out of business sooner than the guy/gal operating out of their garage. I don't waste my time & energy worrying about them as I have a highly respected sign business that offers QUALITY, SERVICE & FAIR PRICING with sales that have increased yearly. I lose customers to pricing but they usually end up back because they don't get the QUALITY, & SERVICE and then they are willing to pay my FAIR PRICES. I've lost nothing if they don't come back, they are probably not someone I want to do work for. Maybe a few of you need to take a good look at your businesses & quit being so negative.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Colleen,
I hope you'll understand some of the animosity independent shops have against franchise shops. What I am about to say is not directed at you personally in any way whatsoever.
Yes, there are some "good" franchise shops. A local American Sign Shops franchise and I are on good terms. Not so with our local SignsNow shop. Why? Because of the owner's attitude and business practices.
I've been told by several former employees that this owner sees us at the "enemy". They were instructed that if a customer came to them with one of our quotes, they were to do anything to get the business away from us. Our prices were automatically undercut by 10%.
I've had my fun with her too. When I knew that the customer was going to her for a quote, I would give that person a ridiculously low price just to see what would happen. I got a call a couple weeks ago from a auto parts business looking for quotes on doing 15 pickup trucks - two doors, the bed and the tailgate. I gave a price of $50 each. I did a follow up call a few days later. I was told that the SignsNow store beat my price.
Now, do I gripe that she undercut the price or that she is ruining the market that I spent better than 15 years trying to build up from a guy who still handletters truck doors for $35 a pair?
quote:Why would you worry about a franchise giving work away when in most cases their overhead expenses are much higher than yours and they'll be out of business sooner than the guy/gal operating out of their garage.
I don't worry about them. I worry about the market being ruined and about how much time and work it will take to repair the damage before the next franchise shop pops up only to start the cycle all over again.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Right ON Glenn.
Colleen thanks for joining in. But what exactly do you mean by 'FAIR PRICING'? Fair for who? Fair for you? Fair for the customer? Fair for the world? I don't mean to be a smart ass. But alot of us were in business many years before the sign franchises. Since all the SignsNOW, FastSigns, Signs by Tomorrow, SignsRus etc. have come around.. sign prices have dropped. Quality appears to have gone downhill. Cost of materials have gone up. When signs were handlettered each sign seemed to be a unique masterpiece. I made good money! Now pricing has gone all to hell. People think because the SpeedyramaRightNOW guys charge peanuts for their signs, all of us 'signpeople' should do the same. It gets very annoying. And I am not speaking about you, but just try going into a sign franchise! Talk about attitudes! Talk about not being friendly! The way I see it, they are people trying to earn a buck just like the rest of us, but at times they are very insecure and paranoid about the quality of their work as they 'sometimes' have zero design, art, or sign experience. So instead of working on the quality and higher pricing....they just keep lowering their prices to get the work. Sure...they are working their asses off. And I am sure some are making a ton of money. good! I just wish some would put more effort into their designs. Then they would realize the value of their work.
Maybe some franchise owners need to take a good look at the quality of signs they are putting out, then other sign designers wouldn't be so negative.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Lotti....OBIOUSLY you are not the typical frnachise shop that we have around here!
You take an interest in design, price and quality...just like all the other Letterheads!
You have the best of both worlds!
keep it up! Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
We had a guy running an "Inovative Signs" shop here. He to set the bench mark so low it was almost a joke.. Once i got a call from a dude who wanted his Wells Cargo done up. Saw his quote from Inovative.. So. i bid the whole job at $90 bux. Knowing Inovative would bid less,, and he did.... I found out that lots of others were playing the same game.. He got lots of work. but no money.. Guess what? Inovative is now gone... HAHAHAAAHA!!!!
Posted by Scott Moyer (Member # 1433) on :
Glenn is definetly right they do see us as the enemy,I still can't see all these corps getting into the sign world as a good thing,I know design is important and it doe's sell and keep good customers but this buisness is constintly being chipped away,I've been doing this a long time and it gets worse & worse my billboard buisness is completly wiped out lucky if I do two a year the trailer buisness is pretty much gone they got ther own cutter, and the big company's get their decals from large suppliers,still doing alot of wraps but they get boring,ten years ago the phone would ring 30 times a day now it's lucky if it rings 30 time per month,I used to laugh at people when they wanted me to paint their offices and homes now I've been taking on more and more paint jobs you know what it's very profitable no complaints they pick the colors and I paint it get done they pay me the hardest part is staying awake don't think I'll be doing signs too much longer maybe a couple of race cars, some wall work, but I think it's time to get out. Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on :
As much as I hate to say it The market place here has become saturated. The supply is much higher than the demand for any of the vinyl type signage the current technology can produce.The only people making true profits with vinyl signage that were there before technology found a place in our industry are the sign suppliers selling the vinyl.Sure there are folks out there making good money doing signs but not the kind of money that was the standard for the trade 15 years ago.Glad I still make my living with a brush here.
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
THE TIMES THEY ARE A'CHANGIN'! IN MY LIFETIME THE MOST NOTABLE WAS THE CORNER GROCERY STORE,THE LOCAL DRUG STORE; 50 CENTS FOR A CENTER FIELD SEAT IN THE POLO GROUNDS FOR VA WORLD SERIES GAME; A NEW CAR FOR $1800.....IT'S ALL GONE PEOPLE.THE CUSTOMER BELIEVES THAT THE "GOOD SUFF" IS AS JUNKY AS THE "BAD STUFF", AND "ONE-STOP SHOPPING" RULES! THE LITTLE GUY HAS GOT TO GET CREATIVE BUSINESS-WISE.IT'S NOT RIGHT....IT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS!....AND CHERYL HAS RUN SMACK INTO IT HEAD-ON!
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Things are not so great for the Big Orange Homer..
We've now got about 50,000 population here in Havasu, AZ and a new Home Depot went up last fall..
I thought for sure all the mom and pop hardware stores in town would lose sales and have to close up, but guess what... After talking with them (I frequent their shops often and know em on first name basis) none of them are having any problems at all! It seems as though this town, while it enjoys having the HD open on weekends (cause the mom and pop places are closed Sat-Mon.) hates having to go there to pick up something quick, plus they cannot beat the prices the other shops in town can provide! There's also a stocking issue, when they run out of something it takes a few weeks for them to restock it, the mom and pop stores here have the connections to get what you need the next day!
So, dont fear the franchise! Utilize them to make YOUR business BETTER!
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
Thanks Si, but I'll gladly pass that nice compliment on to Colleen Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
iam with timi....the brush will alway make you a living.....i do both, vinly for the ballfield signs and cheepi quicky and do stuff from the mobile unit.....but i can swing a brush, make it look better then vinyl use more colors, get more detail...and make more money then if i had to use vinyl...only problem....it still has to DRY!!!!! HEHEHEHEHE. the SAMS here had an airbrush setup in it..lasted maybe 2 months.....also they have the order your magnetics...dont see a lot of activite...
Posted by Carl Wood (Member # 1223) on :
Hey this "Pricing " deal is all just a game to me - down here in Olive Branch, (Fastest growing county in Miss.) I charge what the market will bear - just like in any other community in the U.S. If you have 'nuff customers you can pick & choose the work you want to do - today I chose to letter a new Dry-cleaners van, do a few coroplast store signs, hung 2 3x8 banners for a new market in Memphis, then went to visit Mom, played frisbee golf after that, 'nother words, sometimes you just have to turn away work if it is'nt worth your time..............Carl
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Hi Guys.
First, an aside... If Lotti wasn't Lotti (apart from being somebody else) she might be getting a complex by now. Si's slip was one thing, but I actually mistook her for Steve Shortreed the other day. Anyone who has met both of them would easily know the difference.
Let's look at the big picture... The problem that we have all been experiencing over the course of the past decade or so is that of an increasing overabundance of supply vs demand for signage. This started when Roland (if it wasn't Roland, someone else would have come along) entered the market with low-cost, "entry level" plotters...which essentially obliterated the market's existing barriers to entry.
Suddenly, anyone with a couple of thousand dollars and a garage could start a sign company...and they did, in large numbers. Some devoted themselves to actually learning about the trade (learned layout & design, for example) but most didn't. Without adding any real value, these companies began turning signage into a commodity - sold on price. I think we've finally seen the trough of this cycle. With leadership and vision, the sign business can renew and rebound...
Another digression... When the Gerber EDGE arrived on the scene, my colleagues and I thought we had the solution to this problem I have been describing...we were convinced that we had a bigger revolution on our hands than the original vinyl cutting plotter (signmaker IV...also brought to you by Gerber Scientific Products) . We're still scratching our heads as to why the EDGE really only every managed to be evolutionary.
Franchises are just fancy plotters... When you stop and think about it, franchises are really just plotters with varying degrees of value added...stuff like marketing is "thrown in", for example. Not unlike plotters, some franchises (not all, obviously) are "entry level" packages. "Good" Franchisees will (or already are) facing the same business cycles that the rest of you have been through over the course of the past several years. The good ones also face the "backlash" of "independents", determined to fight back. At the end of the day, we're all just doing the best we can to earn a living and send our kids to school...price wars are not conducive to achieving our goals, however.
Here's an alternative... Rather than drawing a line in the sand between us ("independents") and them ("franchisees"), I think a more productive tact would be to create and continue to build more inclusive alliances (such as through the Letterhead movement) devoted to "raising the bar".
Let's go Ghandi... Invite your worst and most fearsome competitors to come and check out Letterville. Maybe, just by "lurking" they will discover that there are better, more profitable ways to win business...for everyone's benefit (yours and theirs). It would also be arrogant to think that people like Colleen don't have a thing or two to teach the rest of us.
Surely this is a more valuable use of Letterville than some of the silly, non-productive feuding that goes on around here sometimes (and I don't mean this thread).
If you actually read this far, I will buy you a beer when we finally meet face to face...
[ May 26, 2002, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
jon your too funny....roland(and others) sold plotters at "fair market value" because GREEDY GERBER was makin a killin sell theirs so overpriced...that somebody was gona do it! lincoln navigator or susuki sumari...both will do the same thing,and $25,000 seperates them. GERBER $100 A FONT, remember? the extra board(not included when you bought plotter)$400, a crapie sign program $4000 and told everybody nothing was as good as theirs...and corel fonts are crap, they dont cut as clean as gebers. well...it worked for a while...just like polititians.....people arent as dumb as the "suits" belive. we do search out better, faster, cheaper ways to do things.....i remember back in 93 i posted on this board i was cuttin from corle 3....and one of the GERBER GOTCHA people read me the riot act. because he was told what i was doing couldnt be done....by guess who. this point about supply and demand..is true...i see a lot more people jumpin in here from penna, now more then i have seen in the past. and here in pensacola, i havent seen a new sign shop open in couple of years. most here are workin form the house(as i do and my mobile unit). as for pricing when iam at someones shop, and i got the mobile sign shop, i never get haggled on price....becuse they can have there sign done HERE & NOW might be the reason. now they see the money iam saving them by being there rather then them have to leave to go to a shop somewhere else. your right that the business is changing. as for the edge....it has its place, same as the machine that GREGORY uses for the big printed graphics. iam doing more paint work....because i can make a detailed sign, at the same price and mostly way less then the only vinyl shop can. and i spend less time with paint(iam quick with a brush, and rivits and screws dont need any extra attention)and no bubbles!!!! i read one post here a guy is gona close up and become a interior painter...says hell make more money....i can do that and paint words and pictures ...and make more money.....i leave the door open on all types of jobs....but i will survive.....
Posted by Ernie&DianeBalch (Member # 1301) on :
About 4 years ago, 5 new sign shops opened within a 10 mile radius of here. Soon we started hearing that our prices were too high. Well most of those shops are long gone.
We like to get about 80% of the work we quote. If we start winning every quote I know my prices are too low. Also when we get too busy and I don't want to do a particular job we raise the price.
ernie
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Old Paint!
I'm laughing with you. Where is Pensicola in relation to Orlando? The next time I'm at the ISA show, let's get together, get loaded, have a few larfs...then duke it out! I'll kick yer saggin' hide yer head in the sand butt all over town if you don't pass out before me. Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Now Now Jon and Joe!!!
First off Jon..Joe doesn't drink..So maybe you could buy me the drinks!!!! And I will guarantee that I will still be standing when you fall off the bar stool!!!! LOL
Thanks for the e-mails of late Jon..much appreciated...Obviously this site DOES have a positive effect on all of our businesses.
Now for Joe...He MUST be REALLY old..I can remember 1993 and I can remember Corel 2 at the time...(that's what I was using then, wasn't as rich as Joe back then!! Couldn't afford the latest version. LOL)...BUT I can't remember this website or bulletin board back in 1993...MAYBE 1995 or 1996..but NOT 1993!!!!!! LOL LOL
But Joe IS correct..when I bought my first Roland cutter, having CorelDraw 2 already, I was told that "Ya CAN'T cut vinyl from CorelDraw" So I bought a signmaking program (not one of the "popular" ones, and it WAS needed for cutting beyond the 30" x30" limitation of the "desktop publishing" limitations of Corel 2)
And finally, after doing a "southern tour" holiday, and meeting the "famous" Joe Pribish I found out how to actually cut vinyl from Corel..THEN Corel finally expanded the page limitations of 30" and I was away to the races.
THANK YOU Joe!!!!
Joe might not type well but he sure as hell knows what he is typing about!!
Oh..and if anyone needs to know..Joe ain't all that old..he is about 10 months younger than me..and NOT as good lookin!!!!!!!! Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Hi Dave.
I'm only havin' a bit of fun with Joe because I know it would be a waste of my time and his for me to try to convince him that the first guys to market with an innovative new technology aren't greedy or evil.
Still, I would like to address the issue...
The Gerbers and 3Ms (not the Rolands) of this world are the guys who invest enormous resource into researching and developing new technologies to bring to market. They also re-invest a large amount of their profits into continually developing new, innovative solutions to bring to market in future.
You want unfair and greedy? Consider the "china copies" made by latecomers who -- having made none of the initial investment -- enter the market with predatory pricing, to take an unfair and greedy share of the profit from the innovator in question's enormous investment.
I don't expect anyone to shed a tear for Gerber, but sometimes I wish people would free themselves of whatever misguided prejudice they carry that leads to the "Gerber have been ripping us off, man" conclusion.
'nough said on that subject.
Glad to by you a beer, Dave...You too Joe!
[ May 26, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Just a quick question....not to carry on or anything.......but once I went to a sign show party in Vegas put on by Roland. The band that played that night played Roland keyboards and synthesizers. Would that be the same company as Roland plotters? They sure know their stuff if it is.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
It is the same company. I have been playing guitar for near 20 years and their digital and analog effects are the best built there are. Their old stuff is built like a tank. They are also one of the pioneers of digital synthesizers. Today they make digital recording machines, effects processors for all musical instruments and all kinds of other digital stuff. Those Japanese companies make all kind of stuff just look at Yamaha, Honda and Mitsubishi. Yamaha makes verything from violins to motorcycles. Mitsubishi make everything from Cars to TV's Reckon we'll ever see a Ford Plotter?
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
That's cool John. I always wondered about that. Looks like Roland has been around quite awhile. thanks!
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I have a Roland synthesizer, a DX21 circa 1987 and a half dozen or so Roland "pedals" some from about 1982-83. It all still works like the day it was bought. Their DX-7 synth revolutionized the "semi-afforable, I beleive it was $1999 in 1985 or so" digital synth market I beleive it came out in 1983 or so. If you check out VH-1 and watch any of the 80's video's you're bound to see one. It's cool, I saw the Roland logo when I started signs and I was like no way! I don't know if they make anything else though.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
Curious, go here www.rolandus.com and check out their music stuff. I haven't been into music for a while so I am out of the loop as far as newer equiment goes, I do have a modest computer based recording studio but I haven't got time to mess with it anymore. Wander if they sell more plotters or music stuff, I put my money on the music stuff.
Posted by Stephen Bolin (Member # 2234) on :
I visit this site every day (night) and appreciate all the information here. I have posted a number of times, trying to help others too.
I own a franchise sign shop. I have been flamed here before because of it. But I am tuff- skinned, and can get along with almost anybody.
I deal with a lot of the same issues that have been raised in this thread. I compete against independents, other franchises, garage newbies, Kinkos, and companies that have set up their own sign departments.
I won't deceive myself that in 4 years my design skills are as good as yours, Cheryl. But I take pride in what I do, I keep learning, and my business is growing. We get our share of quicky Arial red on white signs- the customer determines a lot of what we sell.
I have a 'cordial' relationship with most of the independents in my area. We help each other out with material when the need arises. The independents (that work out of their homes) are a bit "cheaper" than me. Those that pay rent like I do, usually are more in line with my pricing.
Jon, I agree with your view--we need to take stock of what we can do to add value to our customers, and diversify into different products.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
jon...henry ford was inovative....and when he got the "car" goin....he brought the price down..so everybody could afford it....and GERBER sure dont follow his lead!!!! then all the other car companys got thers going..some sold for way more, other competed with ford....and they all do the same job....just how much you wana spend. i was aware of GERBER when they cameout with the old 4a or b....and saw people spend rediculus amounts of money for them. was not in my budget...nor did i want to be caught up in something that was forever gona be....upgrade, upgrade, upgrade,.....i was paintin signs..for many years before this...and my 1st computer was a compaq suitcase with a 7" green screen...and the only program that was available was BANNERMANIA. ran in dos 4.1. i had that hooked up to a epson wide carriage printer..and made a lot of pounce patterns with it. all the time i was lookin to get some kinda sign softwear and a better computer... got a 386dx40 4 megs ram 130 meg h/d....i was in business wih corel draw 3....still usin the epson printer....then i got a chance to buy a ROLAND PNC-1000 for $1500.....and picked it up and set it up at the house and was cuttin from corel draw 3, arts & letters express 5.0....and ALE would cut longer runs then corels 30". i watched the big shops buy gerbers..and i was one of those who do the same job for less money....yep....because i didnt have $$$$$1000's tied up in equip. i still use that $1500 roland, bought another used PNC-1100 for $1000 and they both are built like tanks and give me no problems....when i get rich...and can afford a new plotter...guess what iam gona buy.....as for kickin butt.....heheheheh jon....you got good hospitalization? if ther is one thing i like better then paintin signs.....it kickin some butt....heheheheh
[ May 27, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
gosh, I remember using Corel to make plt files....then sending it to the DOS based "Cadlink" to cut to the Gerber 4B with an OmniCad board. I think it had to be Corel 2. This was even on a monochrome monitor.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Guys: I'm not Roland bashing, nor am I on the attack against Roland users...I just think it is wrong to characterize companies like Gerber as "greedy".
BTW: It was Yamaha Corporation (not Roland) who introduced the DX7 in 1983. Yamaha's DX7 was the first digital synthesizer to use FM synthesis techniques developed by a guy named John Chowning. If you look into the history of effects pedals, my guess is that you will find that Roland weren't the innovators in that department, either.
Joe: Henry ford innovated mass production, not the automobile. You're right that this made the automobile much more easily affordable for the consumer.
Now how's this for an irony: Gerber innovated MASS CUSTOMIZATION for the sign industry. In other words, by introducing us to vinyl cutting (Signmaker) and, later, to thermal mass transfer printing (Gerber EDGE), Gerber gave us the tools to "mass produce" customized signage for the end-user (your customers), at lower cost.
Stephen: Good on you for letting your views be known.
Cheryl: I seem to have got your discussion off track here. My apologies.
Here's wishing everyone a great day! Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Jon, you're arguements are right on. Basic economics and good business. Too bad it will be lost on some here who are stuck in simple minded prejudices that they will not relinquish.
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
Joe, You're abslutely right on the 1100 ROLAND....I still use it every day....I keep thinking about getting a new one, but after I think about it, a second 1100 makes more sense. If I can find one and rebuild it...new rollers, etc., I'd probably NEVER need to buy a new one! As far as all this talk of innovation goes....I suppose everything has it's place....progress, and like that! But I have a Hiller striping brush I've had for 40 years (it was 30 yrs. old when it was given to me), that has made me thousands of bux! I've made more money with this brush than all the latest innovative crap I've ever had! When I started almost 50 yrs. ago, all you needed was 4 cans of lettering paint , a striping brush, a #4 & #8 quill, and a fitch. If you had $25 in it all, it would be surprising. Imagine starting a competetive business today with $25!!!!!!! So, even tho PROGRESS has taken us to new HIGHS, it's also screwed everything up!
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
Jon your absolutly right and that is what I get for being on the internet at 1 and 2 in the morning, I get the duhhhhhhh! syndrome. Anyways I have a Yamaha DX21 and it a good keyboard too.Roland made the famous Jupiter and JX series of analog synths. Anyways their pedals rule. I have an old phaser pedal that is lime green from about '83 or so and it has been dropped, a cat pee'ed on it, I have had a tantrum or two and thorwn it and a few batteries have corroded to death in it but it still works like new.
Posted by Fernando Ocampo (Member # 2133) on :
Scot Moyer is on to something. Home depot in the Los Angeles area started hiring students from Los Angeles Trade Technical College to run their in house sign shop. A few of these guys are freinds of mine and they are old fashion sign painters. About 5 to 10 stores now have a all hand lettered signs and they look fantastic. I think upper management has noticed the difference. One friend in particular can't keep up with the in house stuff and the snapped up work from the contractors walking down the isles.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Hey Fernando How ya doing?! Now THAT makes me smile about Home Depot. Hope it catches on here! Maybe there is hope after all. And Stephen Bolin thank you for posting. Taking pride in our work is the most important thing. I haven't seen any 'American Sign Shops' around my area. But best of luck to you. Thanks again for posting.
Roland rules. Posted by Frank Weidman (Member # 3004) on :
let me throw in my 2 cents and if i have any change left over I wil throw in a xtra 3 to make it a even nickel. Roland, Gerber, Hand brush, Krylon spray paint, or even Crayola crayon. The materail and supplies don't do the work, it's the person who uses them, and the customer will pay for what they want. I read earlier that some people wont touch a project if it is not worth thier time and money, that is your standards and that is good. But thier is others that will take because it is $$$. The main thing tho, is that As a artist it is your talent that counts the most.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
jon....i did a number of years in drug rehab(both sides, patient and counselor)and we learned a lot about "RATIONALZATION":and for us(as counselors)there came a point in all that we did to help people, that the way they RATIONALIZED, was the only thing holding them back from "total" recovery. and i understand....if i spent a large amount of money for something(drugs,women, wine, or equip)...i will RATIONALIZE it to be the most intelligent thing ive ever done, defend that decision with fervor. i was an outside salesman for NAPA for quite a few years, this was before they had MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKERS. we had product knowledge meetings and the company reps would sit us down buy us a big steak dinner, feed us all the booze we wanted and filled our heads with PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE and that there was no better products out there.........so my point being some of us RATIONALIZE what we do as the best thing for us..(reality based) and those who are prone to belive what they are told is the best thing for them(programed behavior)and to grab a line from the serenity prayer..."the wisdom to know the differance." some of us are weller !!!!
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Now wait a sec Cheryl. You just said Home Depot making signs brings a smile to your face. Your confusing me? Hasn't Home Deopt price cut the little guys and put most of them out of business? Don't you think that's their aim with signs now? If you don't, you better take a better look. So what if they have Michelangelo painting the signs. Is your beef the way the signs look or what they charge for them? cause I can guarantee their gonna charge less than you. Sounds pretty smart of them to me. Maybe they get the talented artists in there to paint signs. They charge next to nothing for the work....heck, even lose money on the signs. But guess what?, they just sold that same contractor all his supplies for the day. Grocery stores use this practice on items all the time. I think they call them "loss leaders" or something like that.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Bruce, I think they are talking about HD using handpainted signs in there own store, not selling them. At least the "hand painted" look is not dead within the big box franchises. When they run their own sign shops they will probably sell vinyl, so folks like Cheryl & O.P. and so many others here will still have that advantage. I use & profit from the Edge & I hope the big Orange that just moved up the street doesn't get into that game. BTW Joe, I got a Roland PNC 1050 that built up this business for years. It still runs like a tank, but when I tried out a Color Camm, it sucked! Affordable plotters that make money are great, but an if it takes 20K to get a good digital printing system, so what if it's buying me a house, new wheels, & the freedom to say Aloha now so I can clock out at 10:30 am & go home & set up for a memorial day BBQ.
[ May 27, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Bruce Evans
You talk about "Lost Leaders" with the Grocery Stores..
Yes Sir! You are very right on the button with this.
But then again can you tell myself that you have the millions of dollars to loose in order to gain the money spent?
I myself have never drop the (Price Bomb) in order to gain the customer and never will.....
Once it is down (Tag Wise!) in the hopes of (You will shop here Again!)..It doesnt happen as they look at the next flyer for... Savings.
We have to look at the income of the customer that we are dealing with.....
Start-Up Shop!
Been there for Sometime!
Or the Stock Companies with Backing!
But I like to treat all the same with Designs.
I am hoping that the Start-up company ,Grows and grows and grows! To become the (Stock Company). Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
It still comes down to how you run your business, not the other guy.
So what if some schmuck in his garage is selling $10 signs?
So what if some franchise is lowballin' everyone to get into the game.. isn't that what everyone else did in the beginning to get their feet wet and build a customer base? Or did everyone here start from day one charging premiums for 4x8's even though you didnt have the skills? Maybe you apprenticed at a shop for a while and siphoned their customers to get yourself started?
If your business goes down the toilet, who's fault is that? the franchise's? the goofball in his garage?
Neither, it's YOUR fault because YOU got LAZY and decided everyone is gonna flock to your door just because you have a business license and lettering on your truck door.
You didnt get off your tail and promote your business, or you ceased to learn something new and cool that nobody else in town does but everybody has just got to have. You just sit back on your laurels and expect the business to come your way when other companies are offering customers incentives to utilize their services.
This isnt directed at anyone in particular, it's more for anyone that needs to feel sorry for themselves because "that damn sign franchise (or garage-based lowballer) has priced me right out of business".
I'm just gettin a little tired of people pinning their failure on some other business and their practices. I just cant feel any sympathy for any business owner that can't venture out and find new ways to bring in profits.. not when I've only been in business for 3 years and have gone from whoring out riceboy decals with my STIKA cutter to being the TOP source for custom jetski graphics on the planet. I know I'm on top because my customers tell me so, and my potential buyers all say the same thing: "Man, you've got the coolest designs around! I definitely wanna buy my graphics from you!"
Anyway... You have to put your skills into demand.. offer something irresistable to your customers.
Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
Blah, Blah, Blah..... who cares! lets just all make good signs and not worry about the other guy.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Hey Joe:
Was all that talk about RATIONALIZATION aimed at me? Seems to me that you are the guy doing all of the RATIONALIZATION.
What did "they" teach you about PROJECTION?
In any case, you won't convince me of your point of view any more than I seem to be able to convince you of mine...so we'll have to agree to disagree if we want to remain friends.
Don't make me open up a can-o-whoopass on you, now. Posted by aaronssigns (Member # 490) on :
something that has been missed here that I have felt all along in the sign traid not only doing good designs useing good matterals and enjoy what your doing from hand lettering to vinyl to dig.printing and charging a fair price..it is key to give good CUSTOMER SERVICE .....say what you do...and then do what you say for your customers. be honest and friendly develop a repore with them.Let them feel that your working for them and not just taking there money, I feel that will keep bring them back more than anything. sure there will allways be the cheapy shoppers the low ballers working out there homes and the big boys trying to get into the act.Face it your never going to gat all the jobs that come your way. good compatition has allways made me work harder and has been the main driving force to become better at what I choose to do for a living produce a good product at a price were you can make a good living wage and develop good customer service...and it wont matter what the other guy is doing
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
I stand corrected. I didn't realize that Home Depot was using these people to make their own signs.
Stephen, I think that Home Depot could very well one day be willing to lose money on signs in order to get the other business. I myself couldn't, but they could. I'm willin to bet that they already are losing money on some loss leaders in order to get you in the store. You can almost bet that they'll have a guy makin signs right next to that guy cuttin keys.
Posted by Carl Wood (Member # 1223) on :
Hey please Home Depot come take some of the pressure off----too many price shoppers round here for me - I'm too busy to talk to them - just be sure to have plenty of white coroplast & cheep red vinyl - maybe stock some pre-cut 12x24 magnetic material- that's where that market is-----------Carl
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
hey jon..just cause you look like mr.me-aggie........i taught him all he knows..........HI-YA....CHI-HI...AW SO....heheheheheheheheheheh
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Hay Joe,
Put yer leg down, LOL.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Thanks, Mike. What you said needed saying.
It's always interesting to get another point of view. Last week I had a call from a local doofus (I'll call him Joe), who owns an RV/trailer/marine supply place. I've done some work for Joe - traded a sign for the cap on my pickup - but hadn't heard from him in a couple of years (not that I really minded). He called about some vinyl for a boat customer; in the conversation he said he'd been going to a new shop in town, but that this new shop "forgot where he came from" and had doubled his prices in the past few months. I wisely refrained from commenting that the new guy had obviously decided to make a living instead of buying work from nitwits like him, and mentally filed his comment for future reference.
Fast forward a week. I was stuck for some vinyl that "brown" managed to lose in the 40-minute drive from my supplier in East Providence, so I went to see the "new guy" that "Joe" had mentioned. We'd heard of each other, of course - it's a small town - but hadn't actually met. In the course of a half-hour friendly conversation, (during which he gave me the 6 ft of vinyl I needed and refused to let me pay for it) I mentioned that I'd heard complaints about how expensive he'd become. He grinned ear-to-ear. "Good. F#^% 'em. I'm sick of guys riding in here in brand-new 35k Dodge Ram pickups and bustin' balls about what I charge." His point was that no matter how low his prices were, SOME CUSTOMERS STILL COMPLAINED, or whined, or wanted to haggle. I left, feeling like I'd learned something valuable, besides knowing I have a competitor who has enough sense not to give work away. He's primarily a vehicle shop - doesn't do many signs - whereas I do maybe a dozen trucks a year, so it's not like we are going to fight over the same work. But at the same time we can stay in touch, warn each other about deadbeat customers, and not get played off on one another. That in itself is a lot more valuable than worrying about his prices, or whether he's going to "steal" all my work, or any number of other paranoid obsessions that have nothing to do with anything.
Posted by Daniel Craig (Member # 971) on :
quote:Our local Beer Distributer has been doing free banners and small graphics to all his retailers and now he's going after the car clubs and race tracks. [/QB]
Granted, beer distributors have been doing this for years. We simply advanced past the age of the magic marker. So, instead of sloppy prices on a pre-printed counter card, we load a template (designed by the brewer), chance the prices and wording, and print - "Quantity With Quality".
Sign shops, at least in our area, were never supplying grocery stores, convenience stores, or bars with static clings, table tents, small banners, or counter cards. Even by cranking out hundreds to thousands of them a week, I have not effected my local sign shops.
And yes, I do take pride in what I do; especially when I take business away from a rival distributor.
I recall one grocery store who had a "Kegs to Go" banner; a vinyl and Edge logo on chloroplast abomination. I looked at the space I had available and designed a 15'x18' banner (six 3'x15' vertical banners hung side by side...gotta love PowerClip). The store went from selling 3-4 kegs a week, to selling over 40 a week. That one still makes me smile.
Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on :
Daniel,...I don't want to pop yer bubble there,...but there aren't many sign shops in the triad that can compete with free,...much less give away 6 3'x15' banners to a possible client.I know it's your job but the small mom and pop sign shop hasn't supplied these items in the past because the client was to cheap to pay a reasonable price.If I were the beverage distributor I would do the same thing as you but I'm not and I can't compete with free, and I do signage for several bars here in town.
Posted by Daniel Craig (Member # 971) on :
quote:...I do signage for several bars here in town.[/QB]
I suppose I should have clarified that the majority of the types of signage we produce are temporary; hanging a few weeks at the most. For the more permanent placements, we settle for clocks, neons, and the like. When a promotion ends in a grocery store, the banners get trashed. When the store wants to "clean up" its look, the signs get trashed. When the competition gets overzealous, the signs get trashed.
Mind you, I'm one of those newfangled graphic artists. I have been using CorelDRAW since version 3, use both a Mac and a PC, and enjoy dabbling with website creation and interactive 3D graphics. Given my own two hands, I cannot draw a circle or a straight line. I have more than a great deal of respect for artists who can render the human form, be it a cartoon or realistic; I need Poser for that. A beach scene drawn freehand? I'd need Bryce. And lets not even get started, about the legibility of my handwriting.
If you have ever lost a sale, because the beer guy can make a banner for free, then I apologize. The overlap was unintentional. Our sales force is rewarded, for the signs they get placed in an account. But we do have our limitations. You'll never see foam letters or painted artwork coming out my sign shop. If it can't be designed in Corel and printed on an ENCAD, Summa cutter, or color laser, then I simply don't play.
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
100
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Just my 2.8 cents worth...
We had a beer distributor in town that we supplied banners to for years. We did 24+ banners a year for them. They supplied the preprinted banners and we hand lettered them or vinyled them, whatever the case may be.
They got bought out by a bigger distributor and started an in-house sign departmemt. They bought the latest and greatest equipment with absolutely no clue how to use it.
Guess who they called to come and "just give them the basics..."? Guess what I said.... LOL!
I can't and will not compete with free. If I am going to lose money, I'll go hit 18 holes and smile about it. A bad day at a golf beats a good day working for nothing.
Have a great one!
[ May 28, 2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Ddamn, I watched this to be 100, but nature called
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
DO I SEE A '200' IN OUR FUTURE? -------------------------------------------------- I HAD A LADY THE OTHER DAY CALLING FOR A PRICE ON A "TEMPORARY A-FRAME". I TOLD HER....WE'RE A DONUT SHOP NOW!......LAST WEEK WE WERE A SIGN SHOP, AND IF THE DONUTS DON'T WORK OUT, NEXT WEEK WE'LL BE A LAUNDROMAT!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Nah....gotta long ways to go to beat the longest thread. A bit over 200 I think.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
Just posting this so we can head for the 200 mark. Oh by the way, franchises can kiss my #$$!!!!
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
Hey you'sa guys gotta help me, I only gotta 28-k. download speed. It'sa gonna take me a week to get this post up to 200 by myself. Ha!Ha!Ha! just kidding.
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
I LIKE YER STYLE, JOHN!
Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :
i think i will see if homr depot wants to buy all my stuff and give me a job. maybe they will give me insurance and all the other benifits.
i have experience and maybe they will send me around to train the other people. who do i contact.
this should get this over 200. haha
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
From what i hear from friends thet work at Home Depot....It is a good place to work! Around here, they hire people that are experienced in the trade, that their department services, so that customers can get proper advice. Unlike WallMart and Lowe's, where the clerk can lead you to the stuff you need, but doesn't know anything about them!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
A guy who works for one of my suppliers also works at the Big Orange nights. I asked him why there are never enough employees there to get one to find an item (even if they know nothing about it)He said they are ready and willing to hire a few dozen people (I've seen the "now hiring" banner) but no one who applies can pass the drug test! I guess that says something about the cross section of humanity around here thats looking for that type of job. From what I've seen of the sign-maker types around here, (myself excluded-of course ) I've got nothing to worry about them ever staffing anyone for that job description.
Posted by Tony Lucero (Member # 1470) on :
heres a positive view of the franchaise shops. When I started our sign biz in '89 the Signs Now and Fast Signs had the nicest shops around the Grand Rapids area. They were charging fair and more important...consistant pricing. I was a car wash operator who got tired of buying signs from very talented, but very slow artistic types (that is slow in the production sense...not intellectually) We've tried to emulate the professional business appearance and policies the successful franchaises practiced. After reading virtually every Sign of the Times Vinyl Surveys over the years, I am not surprised to see that they typically are the gross$ leaders. Granted they kick back a percentage to the home office...but you cant argue with success. Lo-ball pricing sucks...I can honestly say I've seen most of this coming from the homebased independent. BTW I dont think many franchaise guys hang around (lurk) this site...but think they could learn and contribute a lot.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Hey Cheryl- It happens to the best of us. Why dontcha hog-tie the franchise owner, UPS him/her to Mars, and we'll barbeque them? You know, the secret's in the sauce.... love- JILL
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I only had one beer.(one in each hand) I can't handle more than 2.![[Frown]](frown.gif)