i seem to by struggling lately with oracal. if i get a good cut to weed well...then it is cutting the backing so when you transfer tape, the backing is splitting and tring to stick to the letter. i have changed knives..changing forces..knive depth, and can't seem to find the right spot.i have a Mimaki CG-60st cutter and have been usung aftermarket blades($15), not Mamaki brand blades($30).
what is a good brand to switch to..or is anyone had this same experiance.
help!
chris
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Chris,
I go through a ton of Oracal 651 each week. What is the cutting angle of the blade that you are using?
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
im using 37 degrees. it seems to be acting different with different colors?
chris
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
iam not a fan of ORACAL..dont like, to plastic, roll is short, and in my experiance with it it eats blades....for good vinyl try avery A-5
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
I only use Oracal when I don't have time to get other Intermediate vinyls. Oracal is cheap, but it smells very strong, weeds like crap, goes thru blades like crazy and is shorter, so I can't cut long runs on my old Roland, as it goes off track easier. Oracal certainly is not my favorite.
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF A JOB USING HP ORACAL 751, ON A TRUCK. OUTLINES...SHADOWS, ETC. IT REALLY CUT GREAT, AND THE WEEDING WAS A CINCH. IT'S MY FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH ORACAL....SO FAR....SO GOOD! I NORMALLY USE MACTAC, AVERY, AND CALON VINYLS DEPENDING ON THE APPLICATION. I'M JUST TRYING THIS ORACAL STUFF, BECAUSE MY SUPPLIER IS OFFERING PRETTY GOOD DISCOUNTS RIGHT NOW.
Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
Hey Bob, be a bit careful with the 751. Regardless of how careful you apply it across door mouldings etc. it will shrink back over the valleys.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Oracal 651 is a tad thinner than most calendared vinyls - 2.5 mils thick. I don't know much about what blades are available for your plotter, but I'd recommend trying a 45 degree blade. It takes less pressure to cut through the vinyl.
We went through 3 50yd rolls of Beige today. Weeding was a snap. The only one that gives us any trouble is the Red. Dunno why, just does.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
I too use alot of Oracal, the 651 and 751. Both weed great and as of yet, no problems. Actually, the 651 is better to me than any calendered vinyl I have used. Different strokes I guess. I do use a 45 degree also as Glenn specified.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I just this week cut over 450 feet of Oracal 651, we used to use MACTAC but it is real junk or at least I think. I noticed one thing strange, we cut red, black, silver, blue and yellow. Some of the colors weeded better than others with no changes at all to the setting of our machine, for example we cut red and it was a nightmare, I thought it was my settings so I put in a new blade and incereased the pressure, same problem, it was awful weeding then immediatly after that red we cut black. You could rip weed the whole thing all 45-50 feet of lettering. I was amazed, the best weeding ever then as soon as we did the black we cut more red and it weeded like, well #$(%. Whats up with that. My wife and I both did this so I know it isn't just me. Some colors weed good, some don't.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Its good to know I'm not the only one having problems with the Red.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
My theroy is that it is the adhesive layer after it is cut sealing back together and making it seem as if it isn't cut well. I had a lot of trouble with MACTAC doing this. I even have seen vinyl that was cut into the liner not weed good that is why I think my theory holds water. I beleive that ORACAL uses different "recipes" for different colors. Ever used the gold, it smells just like butterscotch whereas others don't, go figure. I really like ORACAL but I only use Avery A8 or A9 for cars and sometimes Tape Tech for flat applications. I really don't like Avery A's (3,4,5) for cal. vinyl, I just don't like the feel of it. Also, Why in the heck have so many lines of vinyl, no distributor always has all of the Avery stuff in and I know why, that is about 150 colors to keep in stock with a lot of repeats and so close they might as well be's. No matter what, I will NEVER use MACTAC again though.
Posted by Tom Bahr (Member # 2925) on :
I use alot of Oracal 651. The price is right. I too, have trouble weeding the red & white. The black does weed better. My blades are sharp & I can see the knife mark in the paper so I know its cutting. I agree with John, the adhesive is resealing after cutting. Don't know what to do. Guess I'll have to try some different brands.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
Yeah white is another bad one maybe even the worst of all. The other day I had 75 white 6X12 window stickers to do for a car dealer and they all had small points like arrows all over them. What a misery it was, if these hadn't been temporary stickers and I hadn't already have given a quote, I would have switched to cast halfway through.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
I'm curious to know why anybody would buy Oracal 751. The way the product is marketed as "2mil", "high performance" and "7 year" seems awfully misleading to me. The stuff is polymeric calendered film. Strikes me as though you're getting "milked" into paying very near to cast film prices for calendered film..
Try the word association game with your customers...you know: you say a name and they say the first thing that comes to mind. "Oracal" means nothing to them. Now try "3M"...means things like "quality", "performance" and "value" (once you get past Scotch tape and Post-it notes, anyways). You can charge more for this option and give your customers a better, more satisfactory product.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I haven't ever figured out they have a 7 year cal. vinyl either. I love Avery A8 and A9 cast but I use cal. vinyl on lots of stuff but only when it is something that won't last more than a year or two like a corplas sign or a low end banner. I also use it on race cars and go karts. Cars, Permanant signs, glass I would only use cast. I also have the problem of my competiton in the area quoting out jos with cal. vinyl so I make it one of my selling points to expalain the difference in cal. and cast just in case my bid is higher due to the materials cost difference. My wifes daddy got a truck lettered before we started doing vinyl and he paid a hefty price and it was done with calenderd vinyl, 4-5 years later it has all peeled off..
Posted by KEN SCOTT (Member # 2979) on :
I also have been having trouble weeding oracal red and white vinyl. Old rolls of my oracal stock in the same colors weed great. I am only having trouble with rolls that I have purchased in the last 4 months. Kenneth Scott
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
i don't use much vinyl at all, so this is a great thread for me. so far i've been using mostly Arlon/Calon (i wish they'd figure out thier name and stick with it) for colors and Avery for all the special stuff (reflective, mylar, paint mask).
yesterday i used some white Oracal 651 and it felt terrible in my hands. its for a banner, so i thought i'd give it a shot. i'd laid down black Arlon II HP shadows with some (painted) white Oracal 651 10" letters. No problem weeding... but the stuff was stiff and didn't want to stick down (i tried wet and dry). i guess i'll try another color (not red!) before i cross it off my list.
i'm thinking that with my small volume i'm probably better off sticking with the more expensive cast materials -- fewer headaches and no worries about which one to use.
Posted by james perkins (Member # 2628) on :
I LOVE THE SMELL OF 3M VINYL IN THE MORNING OVER IN EAST ST. PAUL.
TIME FOR A SCHMITTY! Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
iam usin bannercal intermediate...made by flexcon. std mat finish, but weeds great, and for signs that dont last more then 2 years..its great.oracal is only bought when i cant get anything else....or have to match existing vinyl.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
EEEyyyoooooo! Bannercal is terrible! I used to use it till I found out that it fades within 6 months. Yellow, reds, and burgundy's have turned almost white within 1 year....and that's in Michigan...where you don't have the sun like Florida or out in the SWest. I think Oracal is tons better. That's been my experience anyway. I guess everyone uses what seems to work best for them. Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I have seen MACTAC 8300 yellow fade within a year, but yellow is the only one I've personally seen. It just got lighter but it didn't peel at least.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
sorry todd...but the "old" bannercal did fade quite badly, especiasly the red....and it still does...this is why the also sell "dura red" got a 10 yrd roll of it i like it....see how it holds up. as for the other colors of bannercal..never had a yellow, blue, green, orange fade any quicker then other vinly. as for ora crap.....enjoy......it....for most i still prefer avery a5, a8, gregory hp, permacast hp.....good stuff....
Posted by Jim Hansen (Member # 1927) on :
We have been using Oracal 651 exclusivly for our calandered vinyl work for about 4 years now, hands down the best calandered we've worked with. We use it mostly for race cars, but we did a "temporary" sign with it when we first started using it and it still looks good, it actually seemed to have less shrinkage than we have been experiencing lately on Avery A8. This time of year with all the race car decals, we probably cut 100 yds. a day, I find it to be very easy on cutter blades (Graphtec). I have noticed though recently that the white, red & black have been much harder to weed, Glad to see we are not alone. Still recent weeding problems & all I would not switch to another brand.
Posted by aaronssigns (Member # 490) on :
I tried oracl in the past and hated the way it cut and weeded...just did not like the plastic feel. I use hp calon and cal plus and love the soft way it cuts and weeds and found the cost was only a few dollars a roll difference and when broken down per job to job the cost was no real big differance
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
Avery a-5 for me (for calendered) but, for premium, nothing holds its ground like 3-M on a nice synthetic liner........awesome and user friendly for those "wet application" jobs....no MUSHY paper sticking to your letters.
Posted by dpsign (Member # 1769) on :
"I don't like the plastic feel"...I don't understand this comment. Isn't vinyl plastic? What do you expect? I like that it has a high gloss for an intermediate vinyl, and doesn’t have a lot of stretch. It’s great for edge prints you don’t want to cover with application tape. We use a lot of it, but we also have been noticing some weeding performance problems.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Consistency was always a problem with cheaper vinyls with me. Gerber/3M, Arlon/Calon and CalPlus, SparCal/Universal(now Avery) and Ameriban's vinyls were always reliable choices. Anything else was just headaches in the long run. Maybe the less expensive products have improved since I used them last, but I'd rather not find out the hard way. BTW, according to their website, Arlon is still giving away a free roll of vinyl. Visit http://www.arlon.com/html/contest.html Havin' fun, Checkers
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
Oracal isn't really that cheap. It is really glossy and it looks good. I don't like the way A5 looks and it seems to feel cheaper that most other Cal. vinyl. I use it ocassionally but since SSKY started carrying ORACAL, I haven't used hardly any other Cal. vinyl. I still likes me A8 and A9 for cast. It'll conform to anything, I like carrying a bit around with me so when I am bored I can see what I can wrap it around, just rub it a second really fast to heat it up and stick it'll streeeeetch over anything.
Posted by EmpY (Member # 138) on :
I sub-contract or help out at a high volume shop that's been using LOTS of Oracal intermediate.
Oracal has recently had a problem with the adhesive sticking back to itself after it's been cut. This is why it's been harder to weed. This info comes from the boss talking to one of the presidents of Oracal directly. They know of the problem and are trying to fix it.
My guess is, whoever mixed the batch of adhesive that went into these problem rolls will soon be out of a job if they aren't already.
Only certain parts of the country have been shipped material that has this problem. This explains why some people think the stuff is great, and other people can't stand it.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Empy, from your description, the problem sound like "flowback". Its where the adhesive flows back together after its been cut. We've found that if we have a "problem" roll, we put it in the 'fridge for about a half hour or so and then try weeding it. That seems to cure it most of the time.
By the way, I sent a link of this thread to OraCal a couple days ago. I would love to see them participate in the discussion.
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
i Am so glad that i posted this thred. i at some point thought that my struggles have been my equiptment. i am going to buy some 45 degree blades. am am interested in knowing what the solution is going to be from Oracal.
thanks for all the awsome posts and keep them coming as this seems to be a hot topic.
chris
Posted by aaronssigns (Member # 490) on :
what iI ment in my post before as that I dident like the oracal plastic feel....I ment it is very stiff and not plyable or soft when weeding and would probily never try to use it when forming over truck rivets or something like that i just dont care for the way it cuts, weeds and transfers so i dont use it.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
That's one of the nice things about having access to different brands. Each has its own "personality."
Where Aaron doesn't like the stiffness of Oracal, we do. In fact, one of my biggest clients prefers it because of the fact that it is stiff. He tells me that his installation crew finds it easier to apply.
There is no right or wrong in this area, as I see it. You've got to select what does best for you.
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Chris,
Tried the Oracal, hated it because I had similar problems as you. Went back to Avery. Staying there. That's why I can't compete with vinyl shops around here because they all buy cheap vinyls and sell for cheap. I refuse to! Good to hear from you.
Posted by John Thompson (Member # 2750) on :
I have only had the problems with weeding only with certain colors and other than that, I think that Oracal is really good stuff. Most of the time you can rip-weed just about anything even small letters with it. It is just as far as I can tell red, white and I know I had another color the other day that did it I just can't remember which. I have just about every color of Oracal too and most weed awesome. If you want real weeding problems, use MACTAC than you will love anything. Oracal isn't cheap vinyl and you can't compare it to a cast vinyl. Cast vinyl has it's place and calendered vinyl has it's. It is sort of like paints you have interior and you have exterior and when you use one where you should have used the other is when somebody gets in trouble. I do have a problem in my area with sign shops using calendered vinyl for everything even cars and boats so what I do is educate my customers on the difference so when they may here of a lowball price they will know why. I also explain the difference (just in easy to understand everyday terms) in my flyers I send out.
Posted by John Zant (Member # 1619) on :
okay...my two cents ..... personally i like the oracal...for a low end vinyl it outperforms allot of other stuff...sure its cheap...and i tell the customers that....and i only give them 3 years guarantee.....but it works well...never had a problem weeding it either....and as far as rivets...works well for me.....guess its all in the application....if i want superior then 3-m or avery....but only if the customer is willing to pay the upcharge....i actually find that it weeds better than just about anything else i've used....
Posted by Robb Lowe (Member # 2121) on :
I like the stuff (651). It's cheap, glossy and easy to work with, with excellent batch-to-batch quality control. It's also the most versatile of vinyls, since it looks great for almost all signage - short to medium-long term.
I just dont get the 'I dont use the *#$*%@!! cheap stuff!' mentality. Why make 1 sign every 7 years, when you can make one every 3? (the cost-to-produce it is the same, with a cheaper vinyl being the difference in making the sale, and losing the sale initially). I cant speak for everyone since area to area varies so, but around here, I've lost a job over twenty-seven cents - so Oracal versus Avery makes a big difference.
The only downside to 651 is the shrinkage. I would not recommend it for outside for layered vinyl. Just too much movement, and that damn adhesive residue. ugh. (this occurs in other brands as well, it is not exclusive to oracal)
One more thing I can say about 651 versus the other brands - if you leave a roll laying around for several years (the lesser used colors, like say, grey), the Oracal seems to remain workable where as the others I've had seem to go bad sooner (those being Gerber and Rexcal).
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I see where Oracal is offering a 5 year warranty on the 651. I wonder if that would include vinyl shrinkage.
Posted by aaronssigns (Member # 490) on :
Im with you Glenn! if it works for you and you like it the go for it! and if it dont then try something new and have a open mind about it
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I used to use it till I found out that it fades within 6 months. Yellow, reds, and burgundy's have turned almost white within 1 year....and that's in Michigan...where you don't have the sun like Florida or out in the SWest. I think Oracal is tons better. That's been my experience anyway. I guess everyone uses what seems to work best for them. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)