This correspondence began with a design deposit. At that time they were charged $150 and given an invoice which stated that the $150 was a design deposit but would count toward the price of the sign. The invoice also stated 50% deposit on all work. Balance due on completion. At the bottom of the invoice it also listed "50% deposit". The design was completed and approved by the committee but the representative did not mention the deposit issue to them.
The total price of the sign is $1142.28. This price was tentative because they were debating the idea of incorporating hand painted details into the graphics. The design deposit($150) was paid at the shop in person but the client chose to conduct further correspondence via e-mail. I have rearranged these in chronological order:
> > Dear Mr. Webb: > > > > The committee voted last night to adopt version 8 > > or 10 (they appeared to be the same) of the sign > draft > > and to forego extra charges for handpainted > details. > > We want it done in the urethane with a smooth sky > and > > blasted waves on the water. The color hues should > > depict a serene and peaceful image. > > > > Please let me know if you need additional > information. > > Roger Wilson
--- Webb Sign Studio <webbsigns@digitalexp.com> wrote: > Mr. Wilson, > I'm pleased to hear that and am ordering the > urethane first thing this > morning. > We charge a 50% deposit upon commencement of a > project. > The charges are as follows: > $1039.20 main sign > $28.35 co-op logo plaque > $1067.55 subtotal > $74.73 FL sales tax > $1142.28 total price with tax > $571.14 50% deposit > -$150.00 (design fee already paid) > $571.14 remaining 50% due upon completion > Total due now $421.14 (deposit less $150.00 design > fee already paid) > > You can send a check or bring it anytime should you > want to come over to the > shop and approve the final colors. > I will go ahead and order the urethane this morning. > Thanks again > Wayne > 850.638.9329
> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Wilson" <**********@yahoo.com> > To: <webbsigns@digitalexp.com> > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 7:23 AM > Subject: blue pond sign > >
> > Dear Mr Webb: I am not inclined to call another special meeting nor to write another advance payment from my personal account to pay for something that our members have not yet received.
If you are willing to produce a quality sign based on the specifications and prices that we agreed upon, the association has agreed to pay you in full upon receipt of the sign. Otherwise, I will convey your deposit requirements to the board at the next quarterly meeting in July. At that time, they can decide if they wish to proceed further. Roger Wilson
Would you want to do this job?
[ May 01, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by John Cordova (Member # 220) on :
I say stand your ground. It sounds like they chose to ignore your clear 50% deposit clause.
I wouldn't do it without the deposit.
Good luck, let us know how it went.
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
I agree with John. You had it on everything you provided for them multiple times. Write him back or call and explain that you already stated that on the papers provided to him and in some polite but firm way make him understand that is how you always do business. Good luck!
Posted by Joe Endicott (Member # 628) on :
"I'm not inclined to produce your sign without the 50% deposit specified on the original invoice."
I hate these types.
We have a small job we are (possibly) doing for a finance company here in town. It is some additional signs to a set we made last year. With a Purchase Order and a signed "go-ahead" from the manager in-hand, we standardly waive the deposit. But this time the P.O. had two "conditions".
1. The above purchase order number must appear on all correspondence.....(sure, no problem)
2. This order is placed with the understanding that whole or part of the order is subject to cancellation upon request without penalty.
WHOA!! Hold on there! Red Flag!! Red Flag!!
How can they serious expect that?
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Ever dealt with a committee before?
Stand your ground....no 50% deposit = no start!!!!! At least you will have your materials cost covered!
You can expect at least 14 revisions before you finish the job...at "no cost" to the committee! AND when you finally get it done, there will be one or two members screaming that they want some changes, or no final payment! AND when you finally get your check ...it will be after the next quarterly meeting to dicuss when to issue said payment!
Been there, done that...got the Tshirt!
My rules for working for a committee: 1. I will deal ONLY with the designated spokesperson. 2. 50% deposit 3. ALL changes will be at additional cost, and added to the original price 4. Final payment BEFORE delivery/installation 5. EVERYTHING will be in writing...no "he said", "I think", or other vebals 6. Keep all communications in one folder
I know the above seems harsh...but life will be much more pleasant, if you follow those rules!
Good luck!
[ May 01, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
don't do it. Posted by VICTORGEORGIOU (Member # 474) on :
Sounds like you are doing business with a homeowners association. As the president of an HOA, I can tell you that HOA boards, out here anyway, are not inclined to pay deposits. They are much more likely to walk provided that they have an alternative. You might ask for payment for the sign after it is built and before it is installed, and then the rest after installation. It's the "Look, I'm a little guy and the cash flow kills me". The Association is "big", they have the cash, and they can pay cash if they want to.
The only time in twelve years that I had trouble getting paid by an association is when there was not a clear written and signed document. The HOA agent sometimes makes mistakes, and he expects you to cover his mistakes. He doesn't want to go to the board and ask for money to cover his error. They will ask him to eat the mistake. If the paper is in good order, and the job is done right, you get paid.
Always, always get the art signed. That's where the trouble lies. Some boardmember doesn't like the color of a pinstripe, and you need the paper to show you are right.
I suppose it is possible to have an insolvent association, but you can still lien the property.
Just one man's opinion. Vic G
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Gee, if only our movie theatre worked that way hahaha!
One cent down and we could just leave without paying the rest of the tab? OOOOOh lemme have a popcorn, at no cost to me, of course! OH, what if I get thirsty, shouldn't I get a free drink too?
I'd have a sit down with Mr Check Writer and tell him like it is. Explain to him the supply house does not subscribe to his way of thinking and you do not either. You're not running a social affair, but a business...a business to make money, not grab your ankles.
If you can't do it like Si suggests, then if it were me, I'd just shut it down.
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
Committees stink and usually everyone here will have to deal with this situation. I say stand your ground as well. You have the $150 plus some aggravation at this point. From what you have posted, everything was up front and you acted in a professional manner. If they want to push it off until the next meeting for approval, let them do that. They already have the understanding that you charge $150 whether or not they go with the sign, at this point services have been rendered. If they decide to go on, they pay the remainder of the deposit.
The only thing I would have changed is where you told the guy that you would order the material. You should have replied that "ONCE YOU HAVE RECEIVED THE REMAINDER OF THE DEPOSIT, YOU WOULD ORDER MATERIALS AND PROCEED WITH FABRICATION."
Do all of this in a friendly, professional manner.
Would I take the job? Sure. I have the $150.00 for what I have done so far. Come up with the rest and I'll deliver. Those are your terms.
Posted by Dennis Keeley (Member # 2868) on :
Right on Vic!
I will take on jobs with proper paperwork and no deposit.
At least half of my business is done this way, and I only have been burnt (over $100.00) once.
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Did you have noted on your bid that the price is good for 30 days? If so, Just remind them of that.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Hi Wayne,
It looks to me as though this person you are dealing with never told the rest of the committee about the 50% deposit requirement, and is trying in a way to cover his behind with them. But somebody else on that committee should have picked up on it.
The other thing that really bothers me is his statement about "not being inclined, etc." This comes across to me as a form of putdown, or "putting you in your place" sort of remark. Something I would not take kindly to. He is in effect saying "I am the great I am, and you are nothing but an underling".
FWIW, you do have your design fee in hand, and if you elect to insist on the 50%, then let him bring it up at the next regular meeting, and go from there. Other than having ordered the paint, it doesn't seem that you are out anything, except maybe a dose of aggravation.
Posted by Jerry Steward (Member # 2420) on :
uugghhhh. Why do work for any customer that gives you a bad feeling before work even begins? I have been burnt by this many times, not all by committees, but enough of them. If it is a city council, police, or fireman's organization, I give them the benefit of the doubt, otherwise - don't give them special treatment. We shouldn't be pressed to stick our necks out for the convenience of any committee. Posted by Bruce & Deb Newton (Member # 2312) on :
Wayne,
Wow, version 8 or 10? exactly how many designs did they get to choose from?
Si, hit the nail squarely on the head!
We have had limited experience with HOAs. We take a dominant approach when it comes to money. Our terms are: Order excepted with a 60% deposit, balance is C.O.D., or, prepay in full.
On several occasions I have had big corporations tell me there is no way that they could write a deposit check, or pay the balance C.O.D. everything with them is P.O.s and net 30 days. The very next day I get a check in full, delivered by FedEx. (Go Figure)
My contact at another company (non-profit), always complimented us on our work but, said we made it difficult by requiring a deposit check and C.O.D. on the balance. After completing one job on time, only to hear we don't have the balance check, but could you deliver them anyway. I replied, "call me when you do!" Later that same day I receive a call from the controller of the company and was told that getting a check was not a problem. Seems the problem was my "lazy" contact.
Stick to your guns, and pencil them in for July.
If they walk, feel good, you got paid a DESIGN FEE for your time spent.
Bruce
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Bruce, Actually they were variations of the same design. Some had the co-op logos on the sign and some had separate plaques for these (which I recommended). Some had slight variations in the wording on the secondary copy. Some were just large and small jpg files of the same image. Yes, I do have the consolation of having the design fee but, I'm not so sure they wouldn't pitch a fit about that should they walk. I hope they don't because I would really enjoy building this design.
We'll just have to see.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
I have to admit my pride does get the better of me sometimes but, does this sound mean or vindictive in any way? thanks everyone for the help.
Mr. Wilson, I will assure you that quality is not an object with me. My wife and I take great pride in our work and strive for perfection under any circumstances. We enjoy what we do and don't work for just a paycheck. Unfortunately it is our livelihood, materials are very expensive, and we must charge for our services. If I it were possible I wouldn't require any payment at all on any project until that project was completed. But I have agreed to make an exception in this case. I only ask that you please sign the work order contract which outlines the job specs., payment terms, and authorizes us to begin fabrication. I will make a note on it showing that you agree to pay the full balance on completion. Thanks for your help Wayne Webb
Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on :
If you stated your terms up front and they want different terms,...sure let them change the terms if you can change the final price to adjust for the added expenses on your behalf. I would feel confident to say tha finance charges are perfectly legal and are used by 99% of the businesses in the marketplace that offer goods without payment at the point of purchase
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
Does your letter sound mean or vindictive? No. It sounds like you are giving in to their whims or this particular person's mistake in either not informing the committee of the terms or not showing the information to the committee to see for themselves. (If the entire group DID see the paperwork... how come none of those people bothered to mention "hey, he needs 50% down?) It also sounds like things got heated (from the original trade of posts it did not look that way) and now YOU are the one trying to suck up in order to get the work. You also stated: "Unfortunately" it is our livelihood... Change that to "OUR BUSINESS IS ALSO OUR..." The way you have it indicates that you are SORRY for what you do or SORRY that YOU have nothing to say in this matter. You do.
I'm not trying to beat you up here,Wayne. I'm trying (and sometimes I can't seem to get my thoughts out correctly) to tell you that you are a professional, a business person and in order for you to maintain your standards there are some things that you can not allow yourself to do.
I don't know if this is the main person on this group but sometimes there are others that can expedite payment or change the rules. Maybe you should check around with some of the others in this group.
I think that if you maintain your standards and stick to your deposit requirement it will be just that simple. Maintain a calm and understanding disposition and then explain to this guy that you are more than willing to wait until the next meeting to see what happens. Also inform him that you own the rights to the design until it has been paid for.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
IMHO, Jeff Vrstal has it exactly right. This guy is playing head games with you, and if you give in, he wins. You also start to gain a reputation as someone who can be manipulated. A place you don't want to go.
I'm also not trying to beat up on you, but the picture that comes to mind is of someone with hat in hand and on bended knee approaching the king to ask --or beg-- a boon.
Don't let this happen. it isn't worth it.
Just .02 more.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Listen to Jeff, Bill and Timi....the voices of experience!
Just my $1.13 worth!
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Man, he is testing your "winning thru intimidation" deflector. You already got his money. Let him try to be a bigshot.
But, just be disciplined and you will get yur way..
good luck
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
Hi Wayne, short answer is "Sounds like you have a nice customer and you need to give them a bit more education AND get your deposit."
Longer answer:
let me recap the events to see if i have them correct:
1. Wilson, the primary contact paid you $150 out of his own pocket for the design deposit.
2. you gave him the total price estimate as well as design alternatives to choose from. he presented it all to the Board.
3. Board committee reviewed designs, picked one, and decided to nix the add-on.
4. Wilson wont write you a personal check and doesn't know how to get a deposit check cut before the next board meeting.
5. Wilson wants you to begin work without deposit, but promises the board will pay upon completion.
-- OK. to answer your question, YES, i'd take on the job. $1142 is a lot of money to walk away from. all you'll do is **** off a bunch of people.
Wayne, it seems Wilson has tweaked your nose, and you're getting a little hot over it and you want to say "screw him". Another way to look at this is that you have a little more education or negotiation to do. You want to get from "win/lose" to "win/win".
on the POSITIVE SIDE: 1. the board is happy with your designs 2. the board picked a design, and didn't ask for any changes. 3. the board agreed to your price. (unless Wilson is lying). 4. you already have $150 of their money. 5. Wilson is willing to bring it up to the board in July at their next quarterly meeting.
at this point you're negotiating with Wilson over the production deposit.
So... you think they're gonna eat the $150 deposit and go to somebody else? not likely.
You can offer Wilson a few options: 1. OK, give me a call in July with the deposit. 2. Give me a signed purchase order AND a completed credit form AND three credit references. if your credit checks out , i'll open a line of credit with you and you can pay upon delivery. 3. Let me speak to your board Treasurer, and maybe we can clear this up.
This way you aren't in a stand-off situation with him. (win/lose)
If he tries option 1, his board members will say, "hey Wilson, where's our sign?" and HE will be the bad guy, not you.
I'm guessing option 2 will promt the board president or the treasurer to call you, and then you can sort it out.
Option 3 will get you the treasurer, who will cut you the deposit check and away you go. After all, if the committee has agreed to a design and to a price, then there's no real problem. its just a matter of how to execute the contract.
(it also sounds like Wilson doesn't know how his group works -- after all, why does he think he needs to be the one to shell out the money in the first place? -- don't bother to answer that one -- ) Posted by Mike Kelly (Member # 2037) on :
Wayne, stick to your guns! You laid out the rules in the beginning and they agreed. Then they invested money in YOUR design. Don't budge. That letter makes you look weak.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Well said, Scooter!
Part of our job is to educate the customer. It comes with the territory whether we like it or not.
Everything Mike said will make you look like the professional. It will also give Wilson a way to save face and you won't look like the bad guy in the eyes of the committee.
Posted by Ben Sherr (Member # 2874) on :
I am also rankled by the "not inclined" thing. Sounds like the guy is on a power trip. I'd cut him loose, because it is doubtful he will get any easier to deal with as the project progresses.
Posted by LEE ATTEWELL (Member # 2407) on :
Sorry mate that you're in this mess. I'd be inclined not to loose the job, especially if its one you are looking forward to making. My advice is to be firm on your conditions but patient. If you have to wait until July...No problemo...You'll just have to re quote to take into consideration of any price rises etc that may occur between now and then.
I get caught all of the time, I'm a nice guy who likes to be liked by everyone. So I get trodden on too often. I'm getting harder now and sticking to what is important for me...Food and income to support my family. If this guy is too far up himself to see your position, I'd be worried about getting paid at all.
Hope it works out for you
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Hey Guys, I appreciate all the help and advice.
Posted by Bruce & Deb Newton (Member # 2312) on :
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