What is the process to get your licence where you live? Here, you have to take a buisness and law test (about state and federal taxes, workmans comp laws, federal regulations, osha rules, accounting, bookkeeping, etc.) Have liability insurance, get three contractors to write letters that you can do the work. That only allows you to pull permits for signs up to 32 sq. ft. and 8' high. For larger signs (even non-electrical) you have to take another test for electrical sign contractors. It's a tough test about steel strenth, concrete technology and electrical knowlage. Most of the test is about stuff that needs to be enginneered anyway.
I hate doing installs anyway, so I let another shop pull the permits and install the bigger stuff.
What are your requirements?
Posted by Scott Moyer (Member # 1433) on :
None here in Pa went through all of that in fla you got to get the customer to pull the permit they who have no sign experience aka the customer can pull it but you the sign pro cannot, don't miss fla one bit except the fishing.you have no choice in fla but to take all the tests buy the books flunk a few times,maybe they should just start a state income tax there so they can afford to stop nickel & diming ya to death.
Posted by David Kilgore (Member # 110) on :
Here in Wellsville, PA (part of the USA yet) we still live in freedom and are not hampered by a bunch of bull crap laws like being licensed, yet. Being licensed sounds like more government control, which we have enough of.
Dave
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Scott, Where did you live in FL? I live in Volusia County and they require the sign shop to pull the permit regardless of who installs the sign. The customer can pull the city permits but why should they because even if they are in the city limits they still have to get a county permit. Just wondering if I was missing something here! Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Some of ya are going to wanna shoot me. I can't believe I'm saying this either considering my political beliefs........
I kinda wish they'd require some sort of licensing here in North Carolina.
Yeah, I know. Hard to believe.
The reason why I say this is because of some of the crap - especially the dangerous crap - I've seen go up in my town by the franchise and quickie shops that have cropped up around here over the last few years.
* 4x8 mdo signs mounted ten feet in the air on 4x4 posts which are buried a meager 12-18" inches in the ground.
* Improperly installed channel letters that caused building to catch fire (improperly wired).
* Undersized poles that get severely bent when the first wind storm crops up.
* Poorly trained staff that get killed when they go inside a large pole sign (made by someone else) to change a bulb, only to step in the wrong place and fall 60ft. to their death.
* Improperly mounted hanging sign that fall on top of passerbys because the wrought iron bracket wasn't bolted in a safe and secure manner.
I agree that licensing is a dangerous, slippery slope. But, I do wish that some basic testing was required without undue burden to those who want to do the best and be the best at what they enjoy.
***********
BTW, all of these things have happened within 25 miles of my shop within the last 5 years. All of them happened with new shops or new owners of existing shops.
[ April 30, 2002, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Jean Shimp (Member # 198) on :
I figure it cost us about $1000 to get licensed. When you figure a few hundred dollars for books, numerous fees to take the tests, credit reports, and hours of lost wages due to running around submitting paperwork, forms, applications, etc. it really adds up!
Posted by David Kilgore (Member # 110) on :
I'm all for safety Glenn, and we design our signs to be stronger than need be.
But I just don't like the idea of more constraining rules. I remember back before there was zoning around here and you didn't have to get a permit for any kind of sign. The good shops are going to put out good solid work, license or no license, rules or no rules.
Abraham Lincoln said it best "...a people less governed are best governed..."
Dave
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I agree, Dave. I hate regulations. I especially hate the bureaucracy that comes with it.
But, there are times.....
BTW, has anyone read the article in Signs of the Times "APA Conspires with HUD to Destroy American Freedoms"? (May 2002, pg. 108)
Stephen King couldn't write anything scarier.
[ April 30, 2002, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Scott Moyer (Member # 1433) on :
Amey I lived in pasco county on the west coast did some work, In pinenellas county too and hernando, a little in citrus,I don't know about today but when I was there the owner of the property could always pull the permit,they can't stop him from improving his personal property, I always wrote the estimate and invoice customer will install then I would install it anyway.Eventually I got the contractors liscense.Glen your right some regs are good but floridas laws are made for hurricane problems with bad contractors, somehow sign people got thrown in there, the test was expensive and hard,$800.00 for books, You can't even pull a permit to put up a2'x8' store front sign it's a little overkill down there.Amey do they still sell those magnetics for $19.95 and job sites on coroplst for $9.99,
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Yea Scott! Cheapo signs everywhere. That's where I wish there was more governing going on. Every street in FL looks like a tourist dump. I am still pretty new but I find it really hard to compete with the ridiculous prices around here. A guy up the road is doing two truck doors for $75 installed. He couldn't even spell magnetics correctly on his storefront window!! Go figure! Guess I just like to make a little $$ and eat sometimes! Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
$50.00 a year and posting a $5000.00 performance bond (another $50.00)
With this and an unmarked fast truck you can commit any crime you wish in our town.
The real kicker is the shops doing work here from out of town are virtually exempt.They can come in do as they please never purchase a permit collect their money and leave...When I queried the powers to be (at city hall permit department) I was told...(and this was an exact quote)"oh, we can't do anything about that because they aren't bonded" (meaning of course, that because you have a bond they can attach...they can punish the people that are willing to pay the dues it takes to belong to this elite club of licensed losers)
Thanks I needed that vent! Posted by Chris Davis (Member # 2944) on :
We are here in Gulf Breeze, FL and we sit basically between 2 counties, Escambia & Santa Rosa. As far as getting the 3 contractors to write recommendations, you might try neighboring counties. In some (Santa Rosa for example) you can pay a small fee and they will sponsor you in lieu of recommendations. Because it is a statewide license, you might try that. On a similar note, we lose jobs constantly to shops who do not permit or have a contractors license. They WAY undercut us because they do not have to pay the liability insurance required to have the license in addition to not paying for the permits. "fast trucks from out of town" cause problems for the customers. In Santa Rosa county "they" hold the owner of the property responsible if permits are not filed and the sign is not to code. This is something I try to mention to everyone who calls for a quote. Compare apples to apples...
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
Glenn, do you have to pull permits and get engineering on sign installs? Anything over 8' tall or 32 sq. ft. needs engineering. That usually means 14'x6"x6" post 4 ft.in the ground in concrete with 4-2"x4" stringers for a 4'x8' sign 10' tall! The panel may blow away but the post will be there forever. Maybe it's not the licensing but the permiting requirements (or lack thereof).
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Yep, I do it all the time. And believe it or not, I don't mind.
Now before anyone calls me a liar..........
There was a time when I bugged the tar out of me. I hated it.
So what changed?
I wasn't charging for the time it took to pull the permits.
As part of my quote, I charge the cost of the permit plus acquisition expenses. I do not give a set fee because I don't know what difficulties I may run into. Time is money to me. If I have to spend an hour getting permits, the customer is gonna pay me $68 for my time plus the cost of the permit.
I give the customer the option to get the permit himself as a way to save money. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, they opt to have me to handle it.
If I run into difficulties, I contact the client and make him aware of what is going on. I also invite him to meet with me at the Inspections Dept. to discuss the matter with the building inspectors. This builds my credibility with my client. They also don't complain when they get my bill for acquiring permits.
As the old saying goes, "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." Well, not only am I gonna make lemonade, but I'm gonna be selling it on my roadside lemonade stand and making a profit, not just covering my expenses.
As for the costs involved in becoming licensed, it doesn't matter what the fee is. The customers are paying for it - not you - assuming you are running your business properly. The fees and lost time should be folded into your overhead.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i worked in sarasota county from 86-98. did some installs nothing big, dont like to, never pulled a permit or wanted to. then sarsasota county sent a letter to all small shops as a CEISE AND DESIST order..if you didnt have a sign contractors licence you couldnt do work. like that stopped me. most of my work was on vehicles, windows ands boards and the customer installed those. iam here in escambia county now. their not bad...but the city is a pain in the a**. they have a HISTORIC DISTRICT sign approval committe, then the got the city sign permit office....talk about beauracratic b.s. did one sign for a ladt downtown, she got permits and the sign that was on her building was 13' after all the permits and crap they told her hers could be no more then 12'....had to move a bracket over one ft. if i had a contrators licence ..i would be buildng houses!!!!! then its worht spending all that money and time!
Posted by Ian Wilson (Member # 177) on :
4 years working for a licensed tradesman 20 weeks technical training in tech college then apply for business license. I have to go to Tech College at 50 Years old to get my trade certificate after 13 years Building signs so that I can have an apprentice. I have to go 2 days a week for 5 weeks to do some components of the trade that I have never done which means travelling 21/2 hours each way twice a week through peak hour traffic only 4 weeks to go
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
It's not so much the cost or time that bugs me, but the fact that I have to get the electrical sign contractors licence to install anything over 32 sq. ft. or over 8' tall. Even if it is non-electrical.
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