Well, a friend of mine has asked me to go into business with him and open a sign shop. I've been in the business for 11 years & I think he has for longer. Just talking about it at this point. I was wondering if you shop owners might have some good advice.
Thanks
Glenn
Posted by Jonathan Androsky (Member # 2806) on :
As an aspiring shop owner (::sigh::, someday)I can pass on some of the advice that I've been handed.
Prepare and research, make sure you look at the business from every angle you can think of before you spend a penny, then start all over again and make sure you didn't miss anything. Write a business plan and refer to it often, lots of people try write plans then stick 'em in a file and forget about them. If you need a loan, having all this information presented in a tidy fashion will help you out to no end.
I've been told that before quiting your job and going out on your own, you should have a bare minimum of 6 to 8 months worth of salary for yourself in the bank as a cushion.
Get a copy of Working Solo by Terri Lonier and read it. This great little book is basically a "how to start your own business" guide, and while it's not specific to our trade, it contains a wealth of knowledge. If you can't find it at a book store, it is available from SignCraft, and Amazon.
Good luck! Maybe when I decide to jump off the deep end we can compare notes .
Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
I agree with the previous post. Do a lot of research on your business, what you are capable of doing now to generate revenue, whether or not you need financial assistance, how you are zoned, how you are taxed, what type of facility you will need, what you expect your overhead to be, what you expect your insurance costs to be... will you be hiring employees...WOW. That's just a small, small start. Check out the SBA, you have a rep nearby to answer questions. Talk to your local banker. Talk to your Chamber of Commerce. Talk to a lawyer. Take a small business management class at the local community college. Find an accountant or take that class too.
Best idea is to have a CRAPLOAD of bucks lying around that you don't know what to do with. Prepare for slow times. Get a deposit. Make this your battle cry AND STICK TO IT from the start. It will save you a lot of headaches down the road.
Then, after you have been in business for a few years, come back to this post and read it. Then, say out loud "Man, I should have listened to these guys (and gals)!"
Good luck. This is a GREAT business and I know how excited you are to get into it. Use your head.
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Glenn, Check out the competition in the Red Stick and see where they are located and what type of work they are doing. You're in a good growth area and can reach several major markets quickly. Go to the bank and ask about money even if you don't want it yet. Go to the SBA and use their books maybe talk to someone at SCORE. Then talk out your plans again with each other.
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
Thanx Folks,
As far as Baton Rouge is concerned, there are ALOT of sign companies. However, there aeren't alot of good looking signs. Generally people go for cheap. I think I'd like try & create a market for good design. We already do that at my current job, but it's very small and specialized (sandblasted redwood). I know I could succeed. It's just all about the upstart process.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
It's easier to chose a wife than it is a business partner. Make sure the partnership agreement is properly drawn up and both parties understand each ones rights and responsibilities... It is my opinion that a small business runs better as a dictatorship than a democracy. I would have to think long and hard before entering into a partnership, it's a good way to lose a friend.
Your header said it right.. "Starting my own shop" ... take it from there
[ April 25, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: TransLab ]
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
i'll second that! (about having a business partner). it is hard enough to go into business on your own (i've started and sold three different kinds of businesses) without having to get agreement with the other half.
if the two of you have a shared vision AND complimentary skills, then it might work. you both need good lawyers (you don't want his lawyer telling you what's in your best interest). they will help you two work out the details like: what happens if one of you dies (ie, do you want his wife to be your business partner)? if you disolve the partnership, who gets the good clients and who gets the dogs? if he buys a computer on the company credit card, does he get to take it home? and the biggie... what if he stops working and you're the one who's carrying the load -- does he still keep half the income?
a different approach might be for the two of you to have two businesses and to arrange a cooperative situation -- maybe you both share the same space and equipment, but you go after different kinds of work (he does trucks and you do real estate). that way you could see how it is before you "tie the knot".
--- all that is just about having a partner --
as for going into business... it really gets down to one thing: do you like to be the boss and responsible for everything that goes right (or wrong) or do you just want to do good work and let somebody else take the glory and the headaches? if you really want to run your own show, then do it -- the sooner you start, the sooner you'll be successful. (AND, the younger you are, the easier it is to work late nights and eat hot dogs and beans until the profits come in). Posted by Kathy Joiner (Member # 1814) on :
Glenn, I would think twice before taking on a partner. Been there, done that. In a partnership there should be an accountability that goes both ways. If you are married, imagine two wives to answer to! When it's over, the "divorce" can get NASTY.
If the two of you can agree on which responsibilities to share and divide it can work. Keep good books so that there is nothing left to either's imagination. There should also be no your jobs & mine. Put all the money in one pot, then divide.
Good luck to you. Come visit me and I can show you guys some mistakes I made, as well as some I didn't!
Posted by David Kilgore (Member # 110) on :
Ditto,
In business I think one head is better than two. The buck has one place to stop.
Although getting all the council and advice you can from good sources is a must. Weigh all the council and go with your heart.
After that work, work, work, work and work some more.
And yes it is one great line of work to be in.
Dave
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
starting your own business.....hummmmm. if i had a pocketful of money...it sure wouldnt go into...a sign business. but iam a sign painter, so it was either get into vinyl or get another job...i started in my own business full time 1986. worked 15 years in auto parts, mostly NAPA stores from maine to fl. tryed a few dealerships...those are real bad...at lest in fl. where dealerships are bought and sold like used cars. i started out with nothing but my brushes and paint(had been doing a part time sign painter thing for many years)and the southern half of sarasota fl of which i knew most of the business(garages, gas stations, body shops, parts houses, and tire shops. a lot of the guys who built stock cars and most of the marinas. this is the most important part.....CUSTOMER BASE. with out this..your aint got nothin. i know i moved from sarasota to pensacola....opened a shop, with no customer base, within 20 months i was back home..workin outa my car port. its been 4 years(this july) ive been here..and am just starting to be a part of the business here. geting jobs now because "i know so and so and he said you did good work" and from doing the work for people i did when i 1st got here..they come back. so if you want to get into it on your own...or with a partner....this is one thing you need to have in place more then money....but contacts are MONEY.
Posted by Mark Neurohr (Member # 2470) on :
Glen,
I have just completed a business plan for my sign shop with the help of the staff of Indiana University here in Pennsylvania. They work directly with the SBA (wonderful organization)!! E-Mail me if you would be intrested in a copy of my business plan to help you out. It's in an Excel 97 format, and can be edited to fit your needs.
Good luck! Mark
mneurohr@alltel.net
Posted by Steve Burke (Member # 2674) on :
Great answers, eh, Glenn?
My Dad and brother are both entrepreneurs, and they both would NEVER have a partner. My brother did, and it literally almost got bloody. Ego trips cost the 2 of them about $50K in the end. Had to split the business down the middle, etc.
If you need money, I've read the best thing is go to the bank. A banker knows his money, you know your business. Most private investors will be too busy making you count paperclips and checking the hot water bill to have any useful input.
Noticing a pattern to the answers? BTW if you DO go out on your own, find out what you have to do for Health & Safety compliance. Up in my part of Canada the inspectors have really been going hog-wild checking to make sure we have courses for dangerous goods, etc., but they don't tell you beforehand that you need them (that would make sense).
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
Thanks everyone for all the advice. Truth is, I've been thinking about this for several years. It got put in the back of my mind when some OTHER things came up. My friend asking me to join up with him has really got me stewing over it again. That & realizing things aren't changing fast enough at my current job. I saved this whole web page. I'll definitely be reading it some more.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Glenn,
While I can appreciate the opinions of others, I believe that a partnership can be a long time a fulfilling proposition.
I have a partner. We have been in business together since January of 1992. From the sounds of it, it seems as though we have defied the odds.
Tracy and I had our own shops before we joined forces. We met in the spring of 1991. He had a shop in a building where one of my clients was. I stopped in and said hello. He stopped at my shop one day to visit a few weeks later. He needed some help doing a screen job for one of his clients. We started to swap off labor with each other. It became apparent that our strengths complimented each other.
We shared a lot of thoughts together and came to the conclusion that it was becoming increasingly difficult to maintain a shop in the business enviroment of western New York. we had both recalled an article in SignCraft magazine about two signmen in the pacific northwest who maintained their own seperate businesses while sharing common space together. We thought of the benefits of eliminating one rent, phone bill, utility costs, etc. At this point, all this was just bantering between two disgruntled sign painters.
We had both reached a point in our shops growth where it was becoming apparent we needed to add additional help for our respective shops to grow, but given the logistics of adding an employee or, at least, a sub-contractor seemed out of the question.
One day when we were having lunch, tracy asked me some poignant questions and really caught me off guard. I guess I must have had the right answers... LOL! He told me that he had been giving the situation a lot of thought. He felt that if we were willing to go the "shared spaced" route then it was just a short hop and a skip to forming a partnership. The rest, as they say, is history...
Partnerships aren't for everybody. Some people can't or won't relinquish the power they have over their destiny to trust it to someone else. I trust Tracy with my share of the business when iI am not there. I have to or it would just drive me crazy. I know he isn't going to screw me just as he knows I am not going to do it to him. Some days he pulls more weight than I do and some days not. We both have our quirks and we have learned to deal with them.
Forming a partnership is a scary deal. You lose your own identity to assume a team attitude. You lose total control over the business to sharing the making of decisions. It is a major adjustment to the way you think, do business, and carry on with your life.
Communication is the key. Setting up ground rules, understanding them, and abiding by them is vital. We did and still do. Our agreement was simple. It was going to be a 50/50 partnership.
You want $500 to take home that week? There better be $1,000 in the account to cover it. There was going to be no "make up" money later. All your equipment was no longer yours. It belongs to the shop. All your clients are no longer yours. They belong to the shop, too. You want to cop an attitude and leave? there's the door. Feel free to leave anytime you want to. Only you leave with nothing.
Sound a little harsh? You bet it does. Why? it got us through the growing pains we knew we were bound to experience. It stopped the "I'm mad and i'm going to take my ball and go home" crap that so many partnerships suffer from. There were a few times where I had to bite my tongue and I guarantee that Tracy must have had his share, too.
So here we are, ten full years behind us. I can still count on my one hand the number of arguments we have had. We talk things through all the time. We are able to talk things over with no fear. We have experienced an amount of growth that would have been unobtainable on our own.
I believe the two biggest things that break a partnership are greed and unrealistic expectations. A partnership is a lot like any relationship. It has it's ups and downs. We have our happy moments and our down times, too.
I have never regretted taking on a partner. I no longer worry about personal glory and the such. We are a team and function extremely well together.
I thank my personal Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, each and every day for blessing me with a partner like Tracy Neal. I don't always feel like I deserve it but, boy, am I glad He found it in the big scope of things to.
I would be happy to discuss this with you anytime you want. Feel free to call me at the shop or e-mail me.
Have a great one!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
business plan...hehehehehehe....hers mine just like NIKE.....JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
Thanks for balancing this thread Bruce.
While my own post was negative towards partnerships, based on my own experiences, I did not wish to imply that partnerships were impossible, merely that finding the right partner is not an easy thing, nor is it something to be taken lightly. If it gels, the sum of two individuals, can indeed be greater than 2, but the odds of finding the right partner and building a business relationship that will endure is low.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Hey Mike,
I took no inference from what you had posted before. There was no offense taken because I am sure that none was meant.
I will agree wholeheartedly that Tracy and I are an unusual partnership, especially in the world of signs. Signwork being such a personal and artistic type of work being what it is, it is hard to balance personal tastes and styles while keeping one's emotions in check. it isn't like being a mechanic or some other line of work where there is usually one way of doing things. Each project offers it's own set of parameters and problems and such.
Fortunately, Tracy's and my styles of work were somewhat similar so a melding of the two different trains of thought weren't especially difficult.
As far as the rest of the business goes, Tracy pretty much gives me a free reign when I do designing. There are times when he will inject a thought but he usually waits until I ask for an opinion.
The same goes for the way that he runs the office. He has a system that works and I adapted my personal office habits to coincide with his because it was prudent.
We discuss all purchases (except for the rare "executive decision" items... ) before hand. We value each other's imput and have absolutely no fear of being "bashed" for having a different line of thinking.
The bottom line is that a partnership is something that should never be entered into casually. It requires a great deal of thought and planning.
I would like to address the people that told me (and Tracy for that matter) that I was stupid for having taken on a partner. They didn't have a clue of the preparation and ground work that the two of us went through. To make the blanket statements that they made, no matter how well intentioned, were unwelcomed and, at times, very cruel.
Besides, it looks like we proved that they weren't as smart as they envisioned and empowered themselves to be and that they really didn't have a clue of what was best for us.
Have a great one!
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
Glen;
after you get thru the legal parts, business plans, relationship issue...I might recomend that you seek a marketing plan. We Have joined a several building associations. Support them and attened the meetings(advertize in there news letters and offer discounts to the members). Join the chamber of commerce. find the area in those arenas that will support you as a sign shop. Get those face to face relationships built in the communitee. these are great ways to build the business to business relationships that make up the bulk of your customer base. save your money on yellow page adds and spend it on persuing a market.
there have been alot of good post here. i think that any partnership is like a marriage go into it with your eyes open and communicate. have daily stand up meetings. communicate thru your inhouse work oders, always get half down, contract everything from the quote to the drawings and never assume anything.
good luck! chris
good luck! chris
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
Bruce and Chris, Thanks for your input. I would probably consider a partnership, but I will have to get to know that person extremely well. My friend & I do kind of have complimentary talents. He has the gift of gab, & knows alot about the pricing & customer relations. I'm not much of a people person, but I definitely excel on the computer and in graphic design; plus I know alot more about the production side of lots of different signs than he does. Anyways, alot more investigation will have to be done before I "make that jump".
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Glenn,
I've been following this thread since it started. The information provided should be archived. Thank you.
Paying attention to your future now, will offer many benefits. Most of which, the realization that what you surround yourself with now, is your environment tomorrow. Just make sure it's peaceful and you get to eat plenty and laugh/dance a lot.
Show this contract to your friend and maybe you'll both learn more about each other than you ever thought humanly possible. Bruce and Tracy had the same reasons to think about it. Thinking together involves sharing research. It's a probability that your friend will take this seriously as well.
Much success in what you choose is right for you, Linda Silver Eagle
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) before hand. We value each other's imput and have absolutely no fear of being "bashed" for having a different line of thinking.