Well I guess nobody has graphix advantage 6.2 software for sale, so I guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet and buy Omega, I think ND will give me some kind of deal on it, afterall i did buy 2 full blown versions of 6.2 over the last 3 yrs. Hint Hint to John Aston.. I know that some of you cursed this software in the beginning, but what are your thoughts on it now. Is there a very big learning curve? and how does it compare to the old software, such as tools, importing files and so on. I would really like to hear your comments on this one... Thanks in advance... Neil
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Neil..go for OMEGA. I choked a bit on the price too, but I had occasion work on GA6.2 again last month and that's when I really appreciated the features of OMEGA. Aside from design tools and better interface, one of the major benefits for us was the move to windows file management - long file names, creating new folders from the save window, etc. That alone was worth the price.
I can't remember specifics now about which tools OMEGA has that GA6.2 doesn't, but I can tell you that for us the program is very stable. There were some bugs when it first came out, but the Canadian release was held up awhile till things stablized. I got mine the minute it was available in Canada and haven't had any problems with crashing, etc.
I don't remember seeing you post at all on the Edge forum 4edgetalk.com, but there are discussions there regarding OMEGA you might want to check out.
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
Hi Neil,
I saw your asking for used GA software....although all of us that upgraded to Omega have 6.0 or 6.2 in the draw....the dongle is re-written when you upgrade, and the software is no good without it.
I never understood why like Cadlink, you can't run GA 6.0 and Omega parallel, while learning, it works like that with Signlab 5 and E6.
As for Omega.....well where do you begin!!
I must say today I was thinking that it was an improvement, and I was begining to get to grips with it. I may be missing some things here, as we dont get any formal education here when you upgrade.
You get a video here which in Europe has no sound and is in B/W. WHy can't Gerber put it on a CD-Rom even if we had NTSC instead of PAL how many shops have tv and video next to the workstation??
There are some long overdue improvements like Diane says long file names are a big plus.
I don't like the blacksquares to mark objects I think when they turned red before it was better, I know it goes blue now but its those black squares especially when editing.
Colors are no good....or at least something is not right, I tried to calibrate using the Monaco CD etc. You open a file in Illustrator 8,9 or 10 and import it into Omega and its not just small color differences it huge, and their pallettes are no good. I loaded a Avery 800 pallette and most colors came up black, why include pallettes with software if they are not even half complete??
I have installed service pack 1.54, you can be in the middle of doing something and Omega closes without warning, you can hit save occassionally and Omega shuts down without warning...strange.
Like anything once you start adapting to it you get used to it. There are lots of good things that are a big plus, a few things that should have stayed from GA, and a few things that could be added.
Its growing on me....and seems inevitable if you are continiung with Gerber.
I run mine on a new Dell Dimension workstation, with Win 2K Pro, I bought it with a dual monitor card so I have my plot menu/output in one monitor and composer in the main 21"....I like that...thought it was a shame that the split screen feature that Omega has so you can work simultaneously in wireframe and filled can only be split on the one monitor...you cant open up one "double composer" and drag it over to the other screen to make a larger worksurface....
its really late here....if I think of more I will let you know tomorrow.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Henry you have the daylights scared out of me, Diane you had me excited for a while.. I talked to ND Yesterday and let them know how I feel about not being able to buy 6.2. Seems there only going to sell this to people buying a new edge, they said that they are giving away the software as an an added bonus for buying the edge. I bought my edge 3 yrs ago, just a couple of months before they announced the new edge 2, I did'nt get my software for free, also I bought another complete 6.2 software a year after I plunked down over $45,000.00 for software and hardware, and would'nt you know it a month or two after I paid for the second software they announced Omega. What else have Gerber got up their sleeve? I need to add another work station and they got me by the short and curlys.. now I don't think it's my supplier, ND Has always been decent, but this leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, I've just heard way to many horror stories on this software, I would really like to hear some positive testomonials. Thanks Diane and Henry so far it's split 50/50... now what do I do? Neil
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Neil,
I had 6.2 before I bought my Edge2 I never used color management in 6.2 so I can't compare. I will state I would never go back to 6.2. Omega has it' squirks but so did 6.2
Omega is by far a superior product over it's predicessor, the time saving features alone are worth the upgrade. If your looking for perfect software, let me know when you find it, and I'll tell you, you haven't used it long enough yet.
Yes Gerber is working on fixing some bugs but at least they haven't charged for any of the updates so far. Geee has microsoft ever done that?
If you have more than one work station this would be a great time to run this side by side and compare for yourself.
I'd jump in and don't look back. I certainly don't regret it.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Neil,
The original release of Omega was full of bugs. The current release, version 1.54, is a lot more stable.
According to a post on another BB by Gerber's senior software engineer, they are currently working on version 1.56, which will fee a free update. It is going to include Corel color palettes.
In any case, I'm using the latest release of Omega and I'm not having any problems.
[ April 12, 2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Hi Neil!
A bit of a historical perspective for you - and a glimmer of hope...
Although still one of the best that investments any commercial signshop owner can make, the EDGE is now about ten years old. This is already a much longer product life cycle than you will typically see...ever. With the introduction of the EDGE2, the EDGE's market value dropped substantially (as did the market price, almost overnight).
Increasingly, as time goes by, we are also selling EDGEs into an segment of the market who already own non-Gerber software and/or who can't afford (or won't pay for) OMEGA; on top of the $20K or so price that an EDGE still commands...so we now always include a "bare-bones" version of GA 6.2 - as a kind of value-added proposition. The only way to get one of these versions of 6.2 is to purchase an EDGE (it is a package). Have you considered a second EDGE?
As a relatively early adopter of the technology, you were bound to pay more than you would have if purchasing several years later. Typically, the payoff for being an early adopter comes in the form of enjoying competitive advantages, higher profit margins and much better ROI, as compared to the people who get in the game much later.
Was your $45K money well spent? Based on my experience with many other "early adopters", I expect that it was.
OMEGA wasn't released by ND GRAPHICS until about a year after Gerber launched the product. This was not an easy decision on our part (can you imagine defering millions of dollars worth of sales for an entire year?) and we took alot of "heat" for it ("I want it now! Why can't I have it now?!)...but we did so to protect our customers from serious aggrevation and costly downtime.
When we finally released OMEGA, you should have received an "Upgrade Today!" OMEGA package from ND GRAPHICS and (from the sounds of it) might have qualified for at least one free upgrade. Let me look into this and see if I can't swing something for you (no promises).
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Neil, I feel your pain. When we purchased our Edge1, I specifically asked Gerber - directly, not through ND - some very pointed questions about future developments, for obvious reasons. They gave me assurances that there was nothing in the works and the Edge2 burst onto the scene a very short time thereafter.
Their claim is that their own employees aren't informed of what's upcoming (yeah, right) so, technically, they weren't lying to me they just didn't know about it.
I understand that if people know of a new release coming it will slow sales of existing product, but wouldn't a better approach be to provide recent buyers with a free or discounted version of software and the option to trade up to new hardware that is introduced within a certain timeframe? I know of other companies that operate that way, and I think customers respond much more readily when there is not a fear of being burned. It's an issue of trust.
Anyway, enough complaining...we've found OMEGA to be much more productive than GA6.2 and when I get a chance this weekend I'll try to post some of the specific changes that we like. One thing I can say is that when we were using GA6.2 we did most of our designing in Freehand and exported AI files to GA6.2 where we assigned colours and output to the Edge. With OMEGA we're actually using the software to create jobs from start to finish.
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
Neil, I am not trying to scare you....I use Omega everyday, as I never get the time to learn my Signlab....you are in an enviable postion of being able to upgrade one station while continuing to work on your other GA set up side by side. Omega has as others have said many advantages over GA....I just feel that there are a couple of things that should have been kept from the old GA....I hate the colour side of it and make excuses to customers everyday for that.
It shut itself down this morning without warning....why does it do that....I know others have experienced the same. Actually while saving one job....but losing other jobs that were also open.....somebody explain that to me?
No program as Bob says is perfect....I waited and waited, and only upgraded as Gerber would not support GA with windows 2K. I bought this machine before christmas with Win2K an´d so had to take the plunge.
Lots of other things can cause a system to be unstable, and affect software.
I did my GA to Omega upgrade on my old system, so the dongle was changed on that, and then did a clean install on this computer so there was no GA in here, and much less chance of corrupting anything, I installed a later version of Omega and the 1.54 service pack. This computer is used solely for running sign equipment. Playing with the net etc, are done from home, so there is even less risk of problems.
I also have Norton Utilities running here to check for any faults.
So for me its still not bugfree, but again once you get thru the learning curve its much of what you are familiar with, and definetly an improvement and worth the cost....I just wanted to make you aware of some of my findings thru my set up.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
One of the worst (and unforgiveable) lack of features of Omega is that it doesn't have layer support!
What a crock! Corel has layers, Illustrator has layers, Photoshop has layers...everybody by Omega.
How nice it would be to have the ability to simply and easily click on and off different layers so you can see work with multi-level images. As it stands right now....you have to "cut" or move an image out of the way to see what's going on below it.
The way you have to "order" things around is ignorant....in my humble opinion. Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Well it looks like I'm going Omega, I just got off the phone and worked out the deal, I think, with ND Graphics, they really are great to deal with, so hopefully I'll have it next week, and I guess I am lucky to be able to have both versions of software, 6.21 and the new omega, so the learning curve should be softened a little. Thanks Jon Aston, AND Steve at ND Graphics. Thanks for all the opinions everyone.. by the way I'm typing this on my brand new p4 computer, 512 megs of ram, upgradable to 2gig. a 60 gig hardrive, with all he bells and whistles.. I tell you she's some sweet. Have a great weekend. I will. Neil
[ April 12, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Neil, I'm jealous! Glad to hear you'll be getting a copy of OMEGA. You won't be disappointed (unless of course the version with layers comes out next week and you have to re-upgrade ).
Todd's right about the layers, and we're all anxiously awaiting that feature (which, by the way has been standard issue in graphics software for the past eight years at least). But, the comparison here was between GA6.2 and OMEGA, so on that playing field OMEGA has to win. Put other players on the field and then you have a contest.
Have fun with your new toys.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote: What a crock! Corel has layers, Illustrator has layers, Photoshop has layers...everybody by Omega.
I think this is where everyone starts to make mistakes in what to expect. Corel, Illustator, Freehand and Photoshop are illustration programs. They are not production (i.e. - cut & print) programs. While they obviously have a lot of similarities, they are not intended to be the same.
I'm curious.....Do SignLab and Flexi handle layers? I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Glenn, I don't see the relevance. Layers are essential to the management of objects on the screen - it doesn't matter whether the output is laser printed, cut on a vinyl cutter, or plotted with a pen (as with Autocad). And since the introduction of the Edge, they can't fall back on the "it's a sign program" any longer. The Edge is marketed strongly for applications such as labels, decals, panel overlays, etc., and layers are a simple and invaluable means of designing.
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
I guess some of us get stuck in our ways, and take time to adjust....you will enjoy the benefits and the differences....I just think its harder in a 1 man shop where you are so reliant on the one program.
I haven't been waiting for layers!! I always think its a problem when you import a Corel or illustrator file thats made up of lots of boxes that are not visble in those programs but show up in Omega!....maybe I am slow and its just me...!
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Henry, that's a problem with the person doing the exporting. We have our program set to ignore invisible layers when outputing or exporting.
With layers...
when you have a complex design with lots of objects, it's nice to be able to isolate objects to a separate (but visible) layer so you can lock them in place. Then your marquee select tool will pickup only those items not locked, and it's a lot faster than individually selecting the items you want.
when you're manually digitizing an image, layers allows you to click the image on and off so you can see your outline without the distracting image behind it.
you can look at specific items without the distraction of the surrounding objects (OMEGA does have a lot of "select by" choices, which helps but is not the same as being able to see JUST those items selected on the screen).
Maybe layers weren't important when the function was simply cutting shapes out of vinyl, but it's near top on my list of needed features when working with the printed output of the Edge (expecially expensive Lexedge!).
Posted by Bob Boyd (Member # 2500) on :
I have never seen a program bring out so many opinions in my life. It always seems someone is critisizing or defending Omega. I use Omega everyday, make money with it and curse it. It is a strange relationship. I don't think I would go back to 6.2, but I look forward to a better Omega.
[ April 12, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Bob Boyd ]
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
You said it precisely Bob. Amen.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Diane,
Thank you. Layers are CRUCIAL to productive computer design.
I use them every single day in Illustrator and Photoshop.
I think a lot of the "poo-poo" on the revelence of layers comes from people being used to doing things a certain way for so long (the hard way).
I feel confident, that once they experience the productive powers of isolating objects on layers they will wonder how they ever got along without it, and will find it enhances their creativity by allowing them to manipulate their design in ways that before would only frustrate them, AND save them gobs and gobs of time and frustration trying to pick out an object or group of objects that are under several other objects.
You gotta trust me on this one guys....the omission of layers was a crucial mistake.
True, other sign programs don't have them either...some probably do...I don't know..but that is not a valid argument Glenn.
It's like saying back in the early eighties that Mercedes and BMW don't need anitlock brakes and airbags....because none of the American automakers feel the need to offer them.
It's all DESIGN software and as such should accomodate the designer in the best way possible.
Now, I do like many of Omega's features....but I gotta say....some are VERY user unfriendly in the way they were designed to work. The trimming feature where A minus B (but keep A) and all those goofy symbols is one of them....the visuals to my puny mind are confusing...not to mention they don't work correctly half the time.
The Drawing tool (pencil) is absolutely without a question the WORST designed way of creating shapes ever devised by man. A horrendous failure by the designers of this program.
I will ALWAYS draw my design in Illustrator or CorelDraw and then import it into Omega for this reason. Then, I'll tweak the design, round points, do outlines, etc in Omega prior to cutting.
Omega should have taken some clues on vector art creation from the pros....as it could have been a great program.
Whewwww. Ok then. there's my .50Cents.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I have been a Signlab user for about 8 years now and recently been using Graphics Advantage for my Edge output. If Omega is in any way still like GA you can keep it. Signlab is much more intuitive in the line of Corel and other Windows programs. I don't know what universe the Gerber people design in but it is not a logical one. Great Hardware though. Signlab has something like layers I would say, in that you can select by color. Alt-click on the color in the color palette and only those objects of that color are selectable.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I think it is a valid point, here why.
It all comes down to the limitation of computer language. I admit it is suposition on my part, but its based on observation and past experience.
I'm not so sure it is possible at this point to have what you are asking for. Layers are primarily used in paint programs such as PhotoShop and PhotoPaint. If it were easy enough to do, then why haven;t Adobe combined Illustrator and PhotoShop together? Why not a combination of CorelDraw and Photopaint? Why must there be two seperate programs?
As for Omega, it is designed for printing with the Edge. If layers were in some way implimented, how would the program recognize to use a particular spot color foil only once and not try to print it for each layer seperately, thereby wasting a lot of foil? Would you lose the ability to overprint colors
If you were writing the program, how would you solve these problems?
Its one thing to want something because you use it in another program which was created for an entirely different purpose. Its an entirely different matter to implement them.
As for a wish list for Omega, I have a long list. I agree that there are several areas where Omega falls short. Many of these are due to the fact that Gerber carried over several interfaces from GA to Omega with the intent of making the switch over easier for existing owners. I've always said that if was bad then, its bad now. The Detail Edit interface sucks. So does the Effects interface - both are carry-overs. And, I would like to see Omega be able to make use of transparent backgrounds.
But, in any case, Omega is still a heck of a lot better than GA.
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
Neil,
Congratulations on your decision. It appears I’m a bit late to this party but I’ll chip in a few random comments and observations for you digest anyway.
As already stated, Omega was very unstable when it was first released. The folks at Gerber have done a very commendable job, IMHO; they admitted there was a problem, continually strive to correct these known issues, and are working diligently to not repeat this process again. One, of many issues, they have and continually face are the various machine configurations in which the software can be installed. Something you may want to check out is Gerber FastFacts # 3540 titled Video Cards with Known Compatibility Issues (http://www.gspinc.com/support/fastfacts/3540.htm) to see if your particular video card is listed. This will give you a heads up to some potential problems that may, and I emphasis may, be on the horizon. Perhaps a call to the techs at ND to review your machines “inards” may, again may, be a good time investment.
Over the last few months I have been working within shops that are running GA 6.0, GA 6.2, and Omega. Do earlier versions still do the job? Yes. And many shops prove this on a daily basis. However, continued support from Gerber is diminishing on the older packages and older operating systems. If you have an Edge or setup files for Edge production, Omega is must for faster productivity and increased functionality.
A word of caution – A new learning curve. Some of the most basic tasks that you are use to doing are now executed differently. This will probably cause some frustration initially (Henry can confirm this ). Some quick examples:
Selection of objects; in 6.x you simply clicked on the objects that you wanted. In Omega you will have to discipline yourself to hold the [SHIFT] key in addition to click select.
Justification; in 6.x the first object selected was the basis for justification; with Omega it is now the last object.
There are many of these little instances to be found. These simple tasks can lead to some disheartening moments when first attempting to learn the software. As others have indirectly stated above, one overcomes these small obstacles quickly and it soon becomes second nature as it is now with your 6.x software. A piece of advice I have expressed to many is get the Learning Guide out and go through it front to back. This should accelerate the learning process and may even expose you to thinking differently about certain tasks. And review the online help file and/or manual on a somewhat regular basis. You will surprised to find out what some of those less often used commands or tools actually do.
Is Omega the “be all-end all” program that we end users would like to have? No! Does it offer some benefits over 6.x? Yes! Here are a few things off the top of my head and in no particular order.
Long file name support, ability to export raster based graphics, more importing and exporting formats supported, number of objects limited by system resources, multiple undoes, ability to work in filled mode, able to have multiple views of an open file, able to have multiple files open (not launching multiple instances of Composer like 6.x and prior), text on the work surface (similar to CorelDRAW and others), more fonts, font management, warp (similar to enveloping in other programs), multiple tint positions fills for spot colors, multiple color fills for process fill, dockable/unduockable toolbars, context sensitive menus, ability to set intensity level on placed images, more zoom options, slice and dice copy, and color management. There are more I’m sure, just don’t recall them at this time.
Some of the new tools and functionality could be improved upon. Some of the existing tools and interface could be improved upon. But hay, the coders need something to work towards for the next service release and full version. Again, as mentioned above, name one program that is complete, stable, and available today.
There are many things I would like to see added, changed, or dropped from within this software. That can be done on another thread at some time in the future. One I will address since it mentioned above is layers.
As for the lack of layers in Omega; I’m one that desires for it to be there. Or perhaps “object control” if “layers” is not proper terminology for some. For just one, of many examples, in support of layers/object control, think of the following. If a design done totally with Edge printing contains 100 “objects”, how do I take object number 34 and move it in front of object number 67 efficiently? Move to front, move forward one, move to back, move back one is very restrictive and non productive. More control is this area is a must!
Posted by Bill Modzel (Member # 22) on :
Hey Glen, You were mentioning potential problems dealing with layers, overprints, foil wasting etc. MacImprint uses layers in Illustrator just fine. You can use the same spot color on multipla layers and it will still print on one pass unless you assign a different heat setting to a stroke of the same color. You can use layers for Spectratone overprints or you can have the fills on the same layer and assign overprint there. In fact, MI uses a layer to assign the cut. You know exactly what will cut because it is on it's own layer. Nothing on the cut layer will print and nothing on other layers will cut, very simple. You can assign a layer not to print and it won't.
If you guys ever get a chance to see anyone using MacImprint, you should really take a few minutes and watch. I think you'd be amazed at it's capability and simplicity. After reading this whole discussion on Omega and the other assorted sign programs I'm just sitting her with a BIG smile on my face. Wouldn't trade my MacImprint , Illustrator and G4 for a maxed out PC and whatever software you could load on it.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Thanks for all your time and opinions, All of the comments are informative and very helpful. I'm not the sharpest when it comes to learning new software so this is a little scary for me. I don't have a choice in using this software so I guess patience will have to be in order. Maybe we should have forum on this software, where one can post tips and suggestions, something like this one. It's Saturday afternoon now so I'm going home to relax, my brain is starting to hurt. thanks again!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Bill,
That is what I was wondering. I look at how Omega functions, which to me is similar to how a screen printer seperates colors and prints them one layer at a time.
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Sorry, Glen, but there's a few problems with your assumptions.
You're assuming layers is a feature of bitmap editing programs and that is very far from the truth. You're correct that bitmap editing programs and vector editing programs are still two separate beasts, but layers has nothing to do with that.
You are already using and controlling layers in OMEGA by using "To Front" and "To Back". You may have dozens of "layers" going on, but you don't have the ability to lock some of them in place, or make them invisible for a minute while you look at everything else. It's not really a big deal, all vector-based illustration programs have that function, and I don't see how GA and OMEGA are not considered vector illustration programs.
Bill is absolutely right and if Macimprint had been around when we bought our Edge, we'd be using it, but I have too much invested on our PC side now; plus it's convenient to have both MAC and PC design stations going at the same time.
Anyway, the more discussion we have about what features are important to us, the more we may see them developed.
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Neil, we do have a forum...I posted it above, and Glen did also. Come join us there.
P.S. Steve, I hope posting the actual link is not a problem...if it is, please correct me. Thanks.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Well, you are right about that Diane. Whenever I've had discussions with others about Layers, it has always been in the context of Photoshop and bitmap manipulation.
Omega does need to catch up with other software. SignLab for one. Being able to turn off objects of a particular color (as in SignLab) is needed. Also, the ability to create groups inside of groups is needed from a design perspective.
But, again as I am looking at it from a screen printer's point of view, how will Omega contend with color traps and bleeds. It seems to me that by having a lot of different objects in various layers with the same colors is going to negate color traps. Since vinyl is known to shift during the printing process, it seems to me that hairline gaps are inevitable.
Bill, since I've no experience with MI, how does it handle this kind of situation?
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
Neil,
Sorry about keeping this thing off topic, but I’d like to see more discussion about the “layer” issue from other GA & Omega users. Below are selected excerpts from an archived correspondence sent to Gerber relative to “layers” and my thoughts on the subject. I believe Diane and I share similar frustrations and ultimate goals on this subject. Bill and other MacImprint users are already enjoying what some desire in Omega. (And Bill, we on the PC side experience the same thing when setting “Overprint” to a color, fill or stroke, in that it has to print separately from the standard and Overlap setting). So please, other users chime in, what are your thoughts???
*****
… image of layers is directed more towards digital printing than just the cutting of vinyl; however, I do see benefits for both applications. The thought of layers is not a unique concept and my vision of layers has been influenced by the use of such packages as Adobe Illustrator / PhotoShop, Corel Draw / PhotoPaint, and Macromedia Fireworks / Flash / Freehand and AutoCAD from AutoDesk.
As designs and layouts increase in complexity, it becomes very cumbersome and laborious to manipulate objects in the current state of OEMGA (just a continuation of GA). As it stands now, we have the ability to move selected object(s) to the front, to the front by 1, to the back, to the back by 1. This, combined with vinyl palettes and vinyl color, are, to the best of my knowledge, the only controls of “layering” as it is defined by OMEGA in its current state. This is severely limiting and extremely non-productive when compared to other object based programs, the amount of computational power that most computers are capable of delivering, and the additional graphic capabilities 32 bit code affords.
The vision of layers I have…
Layers contain object(s) and/or image(s) that are dependent on that layer only and are independent of other layers, unless linked by the end user.
Upon importing files that support layers, layer information is retained, and the user has the option of placing the imported file in front or to the rear of existing layers.
A layer managing window or docker allows the end user to directly manipulate the properties of layers.
End user has the option of “flattening” all layer information for the current supported .plt format.
Additional object(s) /image(s) order or move commands.
A bit of depth on the above comments. Layers contain object(s) and/or image(s) that are dependent on that layer only and are independent of other layers, unless linked by the end user.
The object(s) and/or image(s) on a layer can be manipulated and it is only reflected and relative to the layer it is placed within. If you send a selected object to the back, it goes to the rear of its layer only, not to the back of the entire job file. This would allow for complicated designs to be broken down to smaller, more manageable elements. It could also allow for the inclusion of “notes” or other non design essential elements on a separate, non printing or viewable layer, end user definable. Breaking complicated designs into more manageable elements allow for the possibility of quicker and more accurate design time and lower production cost.
Upon importing files that support layers, layer information is retained, and the user has the option of placing the imported file in front or to the rear of existing layers.
If a support file format contains layer information, the user should have the option of retaining layer information or not. User should also have the ability to place these layers before or after any existing layers, or the option to merge these layers directly between existing layers, albeit in a linear fashion.
There are times I believe it would be nice to have complete control of all imported layers independent of one another, (i.e. non-linear) however, I do not see it as a priority at this time. As an example; current OMEGA file has layer 1, 2, 3. Upon importing a .cdr file that has layers 1 and 2, the end user can place cdr layer 1 between OMEGA layer 1 and 2, but then places cdr layer 2 to the top of OMEGA layer 3. A layer manager would reflect the following
However, if the file format locks two layers together, that integrate must be followed by the importing filters.
A layer managing window or docker allows the end user to directly manipulate the properties of layers. (And objects within that layer as well)
This item would be key in my opinion to layers and their execution and management.
First, every object within the layer would be listed as a separate and editable item, whether it was an object or image. (limited editing on images naturally) Any modifications that could be implemented on the work surface should also be able to be performed in this docker window to any selected item(s) (via the selection of the item(s) than a right click to a context sensitive menu)(this would also entail that context sensitive menu issues be addressed). This docker would also allow the order of a selected object(s) to be changed by a simple drag and drop procedure. Additionally, object(s) can be linked to other object(s) and/or share common properties via this docker as well. Moving or duplicating object(s) to other layers should also be able to be completed here as well.
The layers themselves would have properties and should be controlled from this docker. Some layer options/properties would include, but not necessarily limited to…
visible or not
percentage of opacity
printable and/or plotable or not
editable or not
name of layer
duplication of selected layer(s)
linking of layer(s)
order of layer(s)
End user has the option of “flattening” all layer information for the current supported .plt format (or other layer supported formats).When saving the file as a .plt file (or other layer supporting formats) the user has the option of retaining or removing layer information.
Additional object(s) /image(s) order or move commands.
I would like to see additional order or move commands. Again, the four that are offered are very limiting with more complex designs or layouts. I would like to see the following offered in addition to the existing commands.
In front of. This would allow the end user to move selected object(s) / image(s) in front of a specified object or image.
In back of. This would allow the end user to move selected object(s) / image(s) in back of a specified object or image.
Reverse order. Would reverse the order of selected object(s) / image(s), reverse all remaining, non selected images within the layer, or, just reverse all object(s) / image(s) within the layer. All of which should be end user options.
*****
[ April 13, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Bob Gilliland ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Perhaps Gerber should consider turning Omega into a PC version of Illustrator and MI combined. I'd hate to be the programer assigned to pull that one off considering the work involved. Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
I do tracing of bitmap images in Omega for maps sometimes and it would be nice to be able to lock the background image so I don't keep selecting it accidentally. I can do this in Illustrator but then I have to import the file and that isn't always a simple task. Also it would be nice to be able to select all strokes of a certain width instead of just by color. Other than these few small annoyances, I like Omega just fine.
[ April 13, 2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Chuck Peterson ]
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
Now were getting somewhere!
I don’t know how excited I would be about turning Omega into a “PC version of Illustrator and MI combined” as this would appear to me as reinventing the wheel. Let the “illustration” software people worry about making the “illustration” software and let Gerber concentrate on making “plugins” to showcase there hardware from within those programs. Imagine how many Edge units come of the shelf if you could output direct from Freehand, Illustrator, or CorelDraw. And why stop there, how about SignLab and Flexi driving the Edge with more functionality then is currently offered? But than again, this lends itself to a whole new set of problems….
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Glenn, the program is dealing with colour traps and bleeds now with object upon object upon object. What's the difference? I know you're thinking about the screenprinting aspect, but we've used Freehand for 12 years to produce our output for screenprinting and, in fact, being able to review the layers individually actually assures you have everything set the way it should be.
Think of layers as sheets of acetate on your desk, sometimes you want to tape one layer down to keep it from sliding around while you work on the one above it, and sometimes you want to remove one for a minute to look at the relationship between two other ones - just like your colour separations in screenprinting except that the relationships may not be things of all the same colour but of some other logical relationship.
I'm sure there's some complexity to the programming, but probably not as much as some of the other features OMEGA does have. If it has been a staple of vector-based illustrating programs for a decade then it can't be the technical complexity of programming that's keeping it from being implemented. I suspect it's more likely the Gerber people don't realize how important this feature would be to us. And, that could well be because signmakers who don't use general illustrating programs don't know how functional layers are so they don't clamour for them.
Glenn, don't you find layers useful when working with CorelDraw? (I'm assuming it has a layers feature.)
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Actually, I don't use Layers all that often. I do everything in the default layer. The only time I've had need of it is when I'm doing color corrections or indexing colors in Photoshop for making color seperations.
Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :
A very good friend of mine has had his Edge for about six years. He has been told BY GERBER that his service contract will not be honored anymore. Seems Gerber is running out of parts and will no longer be able to support the original Edge. Sure glad I didn't spend all that dough on something that won't be able to be fixed down the road.
Posted by Bill Modzel (Member # 22) on :
I think that Gerber's move in incorporating MacImprint as an Illustrator plug in was a wise move on their part. There is this huge Mac market of screenprinters, graphic designers, advertising agencys, etc. who have been using Illustrator for years. It basically does all they need it to do. For GSP to make a simple yet fully functional plug in instead ot trying to force feed a "complete" new program to this market would be an effort in futility. Hey, I admit it, we're content in our Mac world. If there is a fault with MacImprint it has been the inability for GSP to get their dealers to actually market it. I've been running my Edge with it for over 4 years now and have truely been amazed at the large part of my business that has been enhanced by it, even after 20 years in the non textile screen business. Having said that, if it had not been ported over to the Mac platform, there still wouldn't be on in my shop. I just inventoried my foils today. I have 86 cartridges either in use or in stock as I speak. Sorry to get on my soapbox here. This started out about the use of layers if I remember correctly..... Actually Glen, all our graphic files contain "layers" as in stacking layer of the graphic components. It's just the ability of placing those parts on actuall "layers" makes it much easier to work on parts without selecting others that can be on a locked or invisible layer. If I flatten a file with 10 layers it will print no differently than it would if the layers were in tack, (except for the designated cut layer). Traps are handled by giving a shape a small stroke and selecting it for overprint. I usually use this feature on what will be my cut line also to avoid the evil hairline showing.
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
Rob,
quote: Sure glad I didn't spend all that dough on something that won't be able to be fixed down the road.
Yea, I’m glad as well. Cause if you did you would be complaining about what bank to use to store all the money the machine makes. and I’m not really interested in hearing about that. So Thank You for not spending a few “hundred” to make “thousands”. [I]You keep “painting with passion” while I “print for profit.”
Now, before you get bent out of shape, the above is stated in jest.
Perhaps someone here with a business degree can inform us what the proper, or state that as “book”, length of time is for ROI in regards to capital expenditures for machinery. I believe most operate on a 36 month time frame. For myself, if I can’t turn it in an 18 to 24 month time period, I have no business owning it. Either sub it out or don’t offer the service. Egos are nice but its tough to get the mortgage company to accept it as payment in full. I don’t have to personally make everything that is sold.
If, in a six year time period, the machine hasn’t paid for itself and reaped substantial profit, then perhaps your friend shouldn’t have bought one either. If, however, it has produced a higher return than other equipment he utilizes, then he is probably happy that he didn’t share your thought process when purchasing.
What is the expected life cycle of a lettering brush? A hammer? Your vehicle? The computer you are using to access this board? The more “technology” that is in a given tool, the faster it is going to become antiquated, hence, shorter life cycles.
Its about risk and reward. Those that invest in new technology usually can achieve greater profitability, either at higher selling cost or lower production cost, and on that rare occasions, both, then most others. However, it is traditionally a short lived advantage, as newer, cheaper, technology comes along and maintenance of existing equipment increases, thus, reversing the afore mentioned advantage. And , it’s a vicious circle. Some keep chasing it, others hop on and off, and some elect to never jump in.
Posted by Roy Somers (Member # 403) on :
To quote Glenn "Perhaps Gerber should consider turning Omega into a PC version of Illustrator and MI combined". If you ran a Mac emulator on your Pc, wouldn't you have that? So instead of buying that very expensive PC software you could just use they programe you probably already have and a plugin. Hmmm, maybe thats why Gerber doesn't make a plugin for the PC??
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Glenn,
The company I work for (regular job) is a very large screenprint company....They use Illustrator exclusively for creating their screen art, traps and all. Layers is an integral part of how they lay the art out.
Photoshop and Illustrator have different focal points, which is why they aren't "one" package....although those lines are being blurred rapidly as Illustrator has more raster capabilities than ever before and conversely, Photoshop has more vector drawing attributes than ever before.
And don't forget marketing strategy. Why sell only one "all-in-one" program to an individual customer, when you can sell them two?
All major drawing programs have layers capabilities. They all draw vector style objects just as sign programs do. It's awesome to actually know where one object actually lies in relationship to another rather than guessing and trying to toggle them forward and backward, and then try to send them back in the right level. With layers...they are exactly where you want them and instantly accessable. It's a powerful feature that once you use it, you'd just be amazed at it's usefullness.
Bill - - not to start a platform war...but the home office uses MacImprint with their Macs....and it doesn't hold a candle to the PC version of Omega. Not nearly as many functions as the PC version. They're always complaining about it and wishing they had a PC hooked to it. And this is coming from die-hard Mac'rs like yourself. The guy that runs the Mac Imprint came from a prior company that used Macs, but had an Edge hooked up to a PC with Omega. Having compared both programs...he would take the PC version hands down.
Now, I know you're gonna ask me "like what?" So, I'll try and get a list around.
I gotta be honest....Mac's don't impress me much. I'm on the phone with the home office artists and they will open the same file I'm opening at the same time....and I'll say, "ok, I have it opened." And they'll say, "dang that was fast, I'm still waiting."
They use G4's and I'm not even into a Pentium 4 yet. But, speed isn't everything...and of course it comes down to personal preference AND what you're used to I'll agree.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Rob, The first year I owned an Edge, I grossed $198,000 with it. It was a stupid thing for me to do, wasn't it.
*****************
As to the layers debate and Todd's comment about Omega not having layer support, again, I stand by my comment that Omega is not an illustration program. No "vinyl-cutting" software is going to compare to Illustrator, Corel, or PhotoShop. Neither Omega, SignLab, nor Flexi is capable of doing what the aforementioned are capable of. Nor are the illustration programs capable of doing all that Omega, SignLab and Flexi are capable of. To make the comparison between Omega and Illustrator/Corel/Photoshop is not realistic. Neither SignLab nor Flexi compare to Illustrator/Corel/Photoshop. Its not that one is better than the other, its just a simple matter than each is designed for a different purpose.
As Bob pointed out earier, Omega has two things to contend with - vinyl and color printed on vinyl. Neither Corel, Illustrator, nor Photoshop will deal with multiple substrates. Omega does. Having to deal with this creates a whole new set of difficulties when writing software.
Does Omega have a ways to go as far as features and ease of use are concerned? Yes, absolutely. Should Omega have better Object Control (i.e. - layers)? Yes. But even so, Omega is still the best program currently available to drive the Edge. And, if Gerber doesn't stay on its toes and strive to continually improve, it won't stay that way for long.
*****************
Todd,
quote: Photoshop and Illustrator have different focal points, which is why they aren't "one" package....
So does Omega. And, it does not have the same focal points as Photoshop or Illustrator. Its only focal point is to use the Edge to print on vinyl.
With time, that will change. Of that, I'm certain. But, even Adobe's software didn't reach its current state of development in just under two years.
And yes, I understand what you say about layers and its use for creating film positive for screen printing. But, Illustrator doesn't have to contend with more than one substrate being used in the design. Having only one substrate to deal with is easy. But, have more than one substrate combined with similar spot colors, you are going to give programers migraines trying to figure out how to write the software.
****************
I'm not saying all these things in an attempt to defend Omega. What I am attempting to do point to what should be reasonable expectations of any software given its intended purpose and market. And, given Omega's uniqueness to its intended purpose, comparing it to other "illustration" programs isn't realistic.
[ April 14, 2002, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Joel Peters (Member # 622) on :
This has been thee most informative thread I have read here since finding this site 3&1/2 years ago.
I was just talking to a friend and Edge user earlier this week about the ins and outs of this technology.
Great post and responses. Thanks to all.
Joel
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
well....i started into vinyl and computer in 92-93....1st thing i did was try to steer clear of GEBER-GOT-CHA stuff. i played with ga a couple of days...totally iratating...its so "dummy oriented" i couldnt stand it..sorta like the rush lintbag of cutting programs. her it is 2002 and iam still cutting from corel...gee..to easy...
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Joe,
When did Corel start driving the Edge?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Sorry Glenn,
But you're thinking inside the box on this one. Programs like Illustrator and Sign software are VERY much alike.
The focal points I'm referring to in regards to Illustrator and photoshop is that between vector and raster images....and you like to quote selected snippets of posts ...you should have included the following statements about the lines becoming blurred between the two programs.
Both Illustrator and Omega have the capabilities to draw vector objects, fill them with spot, cmyk, gradient fills, etc. They can weld, slice and dice, align objects, inline, outline, add and manipulate text, distort, skew, rotate objects, select and delete or move line segments and nodes, adjust anchor points with interactive handles etc. Yep you're right, their really different.
What does substrates have to do with why a program lacks layers?
I think Bill addressed this by pointing out that the MacImprint (Omega version for Macs and Illustrator)software doesn't have an issue with layers and driving the Edge?
Layers is without a doubt a reasonable expectation for sign software...and it's absence from some sign software just reinforces my belief that Omega software designers aren't nearly as proficient
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Todd,
As it was pointed out earlier, MacImprint does not have all of the same abilities as Omega.
Also, if you will go back and read Bob's posts, multiple substrates has a lot to do with things and the difficulties it creates.
Omega has layers as someone pointed out earlier. It does not have layer control other than the rudimentaries.
The difficulties in this for programming is, "How do you create a design in multiple layers without telling the Edge to print the same color multiple times?"
Yes, I know that in Corel that you can do this since substrates are not a consideration. However, the software user, the "artist", still has to take certain things into consideration when creating the design when considering the final printing method and its limitations.
Case in point. A while back, I did a design utilizing Corel's shadow feature. I sent it to Gregory for printing. What I got back was awful. The printer could not read and understand the tranparency of Corel's shadows. So, instead of getting a soft shadow effect like a saw on my monitor and what my deskjet printed out, I got an ugly solid gray mass which did not show any of the underlying color. I had to go back and rework the design and how Corel used shadows before the e-stat printer could print the image as intended. It seems that the printer could not properly interpret the "layers" in the ripping process prior to printing.
That is my concern with using the Edge. It's not so much that I'm trying to think inside the box. I'm thinking about the mechanics of what Omega is suppose to drive. Until Gerber gives the Edge a postscript interpreter and better rip, Omega is going to have limitations as to how the software can be written.
Then there is the matter of being able to properly trap colors without requiring traps and bleeds. By having the same color at multiple layer, the only thing the Edge can do is print the design with the colors butt-to-butt. And, any Edge user knows that vinyl has a tendency to shift ever so slightly during the printing process and creating gaps between the different colors. If you have the same color at different layers, and some are assigned to print with bleeds and some without, you open yourself to a mess. The current solution is to give each color its own layer. But, even that simple thing confuses the heck out of people. I've got the e-mails and phone calls from other Edge users to back that up.
[ April 14, 2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
I talked to Gerber a couple of weeks ago about this rumor I heard about the old Edge no longer being supported. They told me they have plenty of parts, I can get it repaired, I Just have to pay for it, can no longer renew my service contract.
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Glenn, go to OMEGA and create twelve shapes in twelve different vinyls and stack them on top of each other. Voila, you now have twelve layers. Now decide you want the backmost item to be fourth from the top, you click either "move to front 1" eight times or you click "move to front" once and "move back 1" three times. Anyway you slice it you're layering substrates right, left and centre, and OMEGA is managing quite well to keep track of it all. OMEGA already knows there are twelve items stacked up and it knows the hierarchy of the stack. None of that would change if the layers had names.
Now, pretend we had three named layers with four of the twelve objects on each layer, it could look like this:
Everything is still in the same order. The only difference is, if I want to keep from inadvertently selecting or moving items on Layer 2, I can lock them in place, and if I want to be able to see Items 5 through 8 without the distraction of the other items, I can make them invisible, and if I want to take Item 1 to be at the top of Layer 2 I'd just select the object and click on Layer 2 rather than "move to front" seven times.
We're not asking for the moon here, Glenn. I'm sure there are a lot more complex features in OMEGA than having named layers. I'll reiterate - the layers are already there; give us more freedom with them.
(By the way, I have the utmost respect for the difficulty of a programmer's job. I was a programmer for thirteen years.)
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Diane,
I understand, but what happens when you decide to put several different objects onto different layers with the same color. Then assign some of these objects with an overprint and some with a stroke + overprint?
What will happen?
How does Omega or the Edge differentiate and determine the user's intention and still avoid printing the same color several different times thereby wasting foil?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Me too! Especially about all the money it makes! Posted by Stephen Bolin (Member # 2234) on :
Yes, Flexi (v6.6) has layers and fairly good layer control (naming, ordering, coloring (the wireframe color), locking, on/off, etc.)
Since Flexi is both a raster and a vector based program the layers work with whatever design element is on the screen.
I would like to see Omega have raster editing capabilities. It is so handy and quick in Flexi to have the bitmap tools and Adobe as well as Eye Candy plug-ins right there.
I would still use Photoshop for more critical editing. But since a lot of the Edge output is raster based, it would sure be handy to have those tools right on board.
Stephen
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
ahhhhh, unless im mistaken, cocut can cut by color. You can cut all pieces of one color in a multi color lauyout.., and can trap too. It cannot be that hard to program..
But, i may be way off since i dont know anything about GA or Omege or the edge.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Stephen,
I would like to see Omega become more robust in that area too. I don't know what your experience is in Omega is, but did you know that you can have PhotoShop setup as your bitmap editing tool in Omega?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
THANK YOU DIANE! Good explaination...as layers, though crude, are already there...so why not make it function as the rest of software manufacturers do?! There's no excuse not to, and I'm with you.
Now Glenn, what really "wastes" foil is this: When you print a .tiff effect (whether part of a picture, a texture or whatnot) that has no VISIBLE image on one end, yet I suppose it technically contains data, and it "mock" prints or unrolls foil as if it were printing until it gets to the part of the tiff where there is actually a visible image to print...thereby wasting foil. I doubt this can be reconciled...but boy would it be nice.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Oh, and Glenn,
Giving each color it's own layer would not be confusing, but rather make logical sense if you could actually see each layer, name each layer, order each layer, and turn on/turn off each layer like layers were MEANT to work. And this I believe is the power of layers.
And that's the point...Omega's feeble attempt at layers is NOT industry standard and SHOULD be reworked to be so.....thereby making a currently tough job...an easy one.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Again Todd, answer my question....
How do you reconcile the different layers with the same color foil -- some with overprints, some with overprints & strokes, and some without. How do to tell the Edge to differentiate?
No one has answered that simple question yet. Do you have an answer?
As for your point about bitmaps, no other thermal printer manufacturer else has found a solution either. So the point is moot and has nothing to do with our discussion.
I still don't want to have to print the same color 2,3 and 4 times because of lazy file creation.
************
BTW, there is an answer.
[ April 15, 2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
quote:Again Todd, answer my question....
How do you reconcile the different layers with the same color foil -- some with overprints, some with overprints & strokes, and some without. How do to tell the Edge to differentiate?
No one has answered that simple question yet. Do you have an answer?
Glenn, it is a simple answer and I thought my previous post covered it. However they do it now is exactly how they would do it with layers.
OMEGA allows you to select whatever items you want and output them regardless of how much sense it makes to do so. It will take those items, reconcile the attributes in relation to one another and print them out. Whatever magic is involved to make that happen is already being done. Layers is simply a way of labelling the hierarchy of objects that already exists.
You can select individual objects and OMEGA knows what has been selected and what has not. It changes the screen display by assigning a different colour to the lines that are selected. It's not a quantum leap to NOT DISPLAY the objects that are not selected - which would be akin to having a layer turned off.
Macromedia Freehand handles chokes, spreads, bleeds, overlaps, overprints, etc. and still allows named layers. It has been that way almost forever, and if Gerber wants a good model that would be the one I'd suggest. It's simple and elegant and although I only use it when complexity demands, layers are a godsend. (Personally I find Photoshops implementation of layers more complex than it needs to be and sometimes it's downright irritating.)
So to answer your question "however they do it now is how they'd do it with layers".
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Diane to my rescue again. Great explaination. You have a great way of conveying your thoughts Diane. If I'm ever in Canada, I'll have to take you out to lunch and we can toast the powers of layers.
Glenn, I know bitmaps weren't part of the discussion...just a side thought that popped into my head as we were discussing wasted foil. I too, doubt that that particular problem can be addressed by the very nature of raster images. Just wishin'. I guess we can always "rewind" the vinyl to the unused spot for another project.
But the larger point is what Bill pointed out about 20 posts ago...which is that Gerber allows you to use layers now with MacImprint as an Illustrator plugin. And I agree with Diane that, it should not be a quantum leap to tweak the crude layers already in use by Omega.
This debate is great! There are always good points made and it keeps us learning and on our toes. Keep 'em coming. Posted by Bill Modzel (Member # 22) on :
Hi Todd, Getting back to MacImprints limitations. Other than having to use Illustrators maximum document size of about 18' and the lack of a consecutive numbering ability, what's missing?
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
Neil,
Look what you did, a 50+ post that didn’t include politics or religion. (Although, upon closer examination, is it really void of religion and politics? )
Chuck,
Please stop introducing facts into this type of discussion; it ruins everything!
Those that actually own the equipment and invest the time to stay informed already know that Service Contracts are being dropped for the older models, and not service of that piece of equipment in general. Service contracts are designed to help us, the end users, to reduce or control maintenance cost, among other things, while at the same time generating revenue to Gerber. When the equation becomes lopsided, its time for the SC’s to get the ax. It’s business, pure and simple. Thanks for posting accurate information as it relates to the issue.
Stephen and Glenn,
You guys have seen this in the past on another board, but here it is again for those that haven’t. Quoted from another board.
quote: And some would like to see raster based editing within the software as well. For my thoughts on that, view an October post from Stephen titled Digital Camera (JPG) output on Edge is too Greenand read the last two paragraphs from my response. I’m sure others don’t share my view on that, but that how I feel about the subject. ***** As for OMEGA and bitmap manipulation…yes it would be nice, and perhaps more convenient, and it may or may not be including someday. If it were to be included, would you be willing to pay more for the software? If you answered yes, how much more? Do you believe other shops would pay that much? If you answered no, would you expect it to be as robust as PS or just include “basic” capabilities? Define “basic” capabilities. How do you feel about an add in module with those capabilities? Would you expect it to take advantage of PS and other plug-ins?
I often thought I would like to see such a thing, but if it weren’t “full featured,” I’d still be shelling out to PS to do my work anyway. So what would I have gained? A bigger software package and a smaller wallet. I guess my answer would be “how much” for “how much.” What do some of the others think on the subject?
Diane,
Layers in Photoshop are greatly improved in version 7, IMHO. Others have felt your pain an Adobe made what I believe are positive changes. I’m more exited over 7 then any other upgrade in recent PS history. Coming to a store near you, soon!
Todd,
If I understand your situation correctly in regards to “wasted” foil usage when printing raster based files, check our Gerber FastFacts #3555. (http://www.gspinc.com/support/fastfacts/3555.htm) This may or may not help you out with your “waste” situation. Something else to consider; create and use a “mask” object. It doesn’t correct the underlying problem but usually does allow for the same end result you seek.
As for the great layer discussion…
I just don’t get it? Just because another program has this or that feature doesn’t automatically make it “right” for Omega. What I am interested in seeing within Omega is efficiencies for the way we, users of there hardware, work. With that in mind, some type of object level property control is needed. Call it what you want….
Yes Glenn, there is an answer.
Perhaps everyone in this discussion, myself included, is in “the box” on this issue. Why does “layer” usage within Omega have to conform to other program layer conventions? Why look at tools offered in those other packages and mold them to fit Omega. Perhaps its time for Omega to shed its shell and grow into an intuitive, industry leading productive program for all sign makers that is nothing like GA and Omega?! Perhaps its time for Omega users to learn a new and efficient way of working instead of extending the current model?!
Remember the Apple add campaign from a few years ago; “Think Different”! I believe now is a good time.
By the way, for the Gerber folks reading this, I’m with Glenn on Postscript support and would like to add USB v2.0 connectivity for the Edge!! Thanks!
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Bill - I knew you were gonna make me pay the piper on that one...I'll get back to you with specifics....maybe, just maybe you'll prove me full of beans! Haha
Bob - thanks for the tip on saving foil with raster images.
I gotta disagree with your comment on layers. Layers should be adopted by Omega because IT DOES work so well with other apps. Graphics professionals love layers...(at least the ones I know do.) Hey, I'll concede that if they can "best" layers....sure, go for it. But for now...layers are sweet relief! Better than Rolaids.
And, using your logic....why then would you want to implement Postscript support and usb support? Just because other plotter and hardware and software manufacturers do it? Does that make it good? Just playing devil's advocate here.
Keep the ideas coming. I'll embrace any better way of doing things that man or beast can dream up. Hey, this post is rapidly approaching the popularity of the Peein' Calvin one! Hehe.
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
Todd,
Ouch, touché!
Seriously, at least for a moment, PS support would allow for “some things” to happen differently from within Omega, and for the most part, in a positive direction. And for US; needs to happen sooner rather than later. Serial and Parallel are going the way the ISA bus went. ByeBye!! Plus, USB would make the distribution channel VERY HAPPY from an installation standpoint. Trust me on that one.
No back to your cut on me , yes correct, why PS or USB, come on Gerber, invent something better!
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
See how easy it is to have a civilized debate/discussion without it degenerating into a mudslinging contest. This is fun.
I like Bob's terminology along the lines of object control; maybe "layers" is complicating the discussion unnecessarily, although I do think that if and when this feature is implemented, layers is a good explanitory word.
Back to Glenn's questions:
quote:I understand, but what happens when you decide to put several different objects onto different layers with the same color. Then assign some of these objects with an overprint and some with a stroke + overprint?
What will happen?
How does Omega or the Edge differentiate and determine the user's intention and still avoid printing the same color several different times thereby wasting foil?
Unless I'm missing some new mindreading feature of the Edge, the onus is still on me to apply strokes and overprints properly. If I'm dumb enough (and I have been many times) to assign overprint to the fill and forget to do the stroke, the Edge will happily ignore my intention and instead go with my directive, thereby printing twice and wasting foil. Layers (or object control) won't change that.
My needs for object controls are very simple:
let me lock objects I don't want moved inadvertently; let me move objects to their desired location in an easier fashion; let me get some objects out of my viewing plane while I review other objects.
Whether you call it layers, object control, whatever, those are the three things I want from this feature. I don't care about "linking layers" as I think that's overly complicating the issue.
As far as multiple substrates goes, I don't do much vinyl designing with OMEGA so I might be missing something here, but traps, bleeds, overprints, etc. only apply to printed output anyway so object control shouldn't complicate the issue there either.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Hehehe....no offense Bob...just a little good nature elbow jab.
There's a lot to keep straight with Omega and the Edge. One overlooked eccentric rule, and the job is screwed up.
We now print everything super small as a test before sending a massive supplies gobbler through the Edge. It's saved us a ton of foil and vinyl more than once. It's so easy to miss something. Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
Todd,
Elbow accepted with a smile! Actually, this thing has kind of been therapeutic in a strange way. By the way, I’ve been informed by private email that “object control” in the past was defined as not spilling the 1-Shot can! I got a kick out of that one.
quote: There's a lot to keep straight with Omega and the Edge. One overlooked eccentric rule, and the job is screwed up.
Late last year, Glenn posted a thread over at 4edgetalk.com titled Omega and Edge - What would be on your Christmas wishlist? His question was simple; If Santa worked at Gerber, what would you wish he'd do different with Omega and the Edge? I still stick by my original answer; that it would print out the way I wanted it to, not the way I told it to!
Once someone invents a computer/operating system/software package that does what we want it to do as opposed to what we instruct it to do, I will show you a very rich person!
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
While we are on the Omega trail....
I had a couple of questions....why is it that when say you have a job saved in Omega...you open it ....select some of it copy and paste into a new Composer that colours change without warning. I did a layout today for a customer, then changed a couple of things for business cards, copied and pasted and the colour went from dark blue to burgundy.
I still find that my Omega closes down without warning.
Any quick tips on improving the colour side...I find it very frustrating.....when you load Illustrator 10 its fine from day 1....I calibrated Omega using Monaco color...not with the machine but the screen method, and nothing relates to the true colors in Illustrator.
Many thanks to Bob for the Avery pallettes...they're great now....you load the Gerber palletes and get alot of black squares where colour should be.
Like I posted about 50 posts back, I am getting the hang of it now, and enjoy it ´for the most part.
That said another small "whine" would be having to zoom in often (21" monitor) otherwise the select tool is very inclined to catch the wrong thing.
Would really appreciate any tips on color.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Hank....yes! the zoom out feature stinks to high heaven. It reminds me of the zoom tools in Street Atlas.
Bob...LOL....that is sooooo true! Hey, if they worked that well, they'd take over the human race......you know, bunch of evil terminators. Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
As Bill has already pointed out, MacImprint (MI) offers most everything that Omega offers. Some things are approached differently and require a bit more work than GA or Omega users are accustomed to. However, AI users have a plethora of tools at their disposal that GA or Omega simply don’t have.(Did anybody mention layers recently ) So here is a short list of things to jump start the dialog between Bill and Todd. Maybe somebody printing from Freehand, Quark, or Photoshop will pipe in here as well. I haven’t met any of them yet. Keep in mind, I’m not a MacImprint user, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. (TV commercial reference) Please correct any misstatements, as I would like to keep this factual.
AI doesn’t offer auto numbering like GA or Omega (GA&O) does. I don’t believe auto text is offered either, but I’m not 100% positive on that.
Bill stated that AI, as the host program, limits size to 18’, where GA&O is virtually limitless.
Illustrator is not designed to be a cutting program; therefore text has to be converted to outlines in order to be cut and placed on a cutting layer. (Along with any other object that needs to be cut.) An extra step or two that GA&O users are not use to.
The cut layer needs to have a special naming convention to be recognized. It needs to start with “cut”.
Text also needs to be converted to outlines in order to print.
I believe the ability to move cartridge order around was first done in MI then ported to GA 6.21 (SP3?)and standard with O.
MI has Standard and Overprint heat settings; GA&O has an additional setting of Overlap.
MI cannot simulate Gerber vinyl colors on screen like GA&O. (Everything is done on the same “vinyl”; sort of the staple in Glenn’s comment’s above about multiple substrates/layering issues)
Have at it Todd and Bill, add to the list. This was just to warm you guys up.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Back to the layers issue, how to impliment it is the problem. Gerber does not do things in Z-order like Corel and Illustrator.
One of the issues is the "Print Order" of things while designing in Omega. Simply put....you have 220 White vinyl, then Tomato Red foil, and then Colbalt Blue foil, and so on. Gradients make things more complicated.
Then the issue is "do you just take the various layers and flatten the image at output time or have some sort of post-processing done in Quick Plot?"
I think that if you are going to have Layers/Object Control, it is going to have to be done a little bit differently than what some are used to in Corel/Illustrator/PhotoShop. I think it is going to have to be done in a Layers+Sub-Layers manner. By this I mean that the Substrate would be a Master Layer 1. Then, there would be a Sub-Layer based on foil color. All of the objects of the same vinyl & color foil would be assigned to that particular Sub-Layer. This way, you could still be able to select a given object on any layer just like in Corel. In fact, Corel's "Object Manager" interface would be ideal in this case. Then, to move an object from one layer to another, all that the user has to do is either assign that object a different vinyl or foil. The object is then automatically moved to the proper vinyl/foil layer.
I think this could be doable without requiring a major software rewrite. And, it would solve the overprint and trap issues as well.
To have a Layers control as in Corel/Illustrator/PhotoShop, as I see it, will lead to potential problems. By having multiple objects on multiple layers with the same foil colors which have been assigned different attributes (i.e. - overprints, traps, & bleeds), there is going to problems when it comes time to tell the Edge to print. This is an issue that Corel has to face now when I used it to generate film positives with my imagesetter. In Corel, either all of the objects of a certain color fill must be set to overprint or not. You can't have some objects with a PMS 321 fill to overprint and other objects with a PMS 321 fill not to over print. It is strictly an all or nothing choice.
Having Layers is a wonderful idea. But, the devil is in the details.
*******
To Diane's response...
quote: Unless I'm missing some new mindreading feature of the Edge, the onus is still on me to apply strokes and overprints properly. If I'm dumb enough (and I have been many times) to assign overprint to the fill and forget to do the stroke, the Edge will happily ignore my intention and instead go with my directive, thereby printing twice and wasting foil. Layers (or object control) won't change that.
"Ease of Use" is part of the issue. If you have different objects at different layers with the same color foil but assigned different attributes, there is going to be problems. Especially for new users. Omega is already tough enough to learn. It doesn't need to be made any more difficult and confusing than it already is.
* * * * * * *
quote: My needs for object controls are very simple:
let me lock objects I don't want moved inadvertently; let me move objects to their desired location in an easier fashion; let me get some objects out of my viewing plane while I review other objects.
I think that if Layer/Object Control management were done as I suggested, I think your Object Control Needs can be done and done easily by right-clicking on a given sub-layer which would give you a menu of command choices.
* * * * *
Anyhow, that just my thoughts on it. Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Hi Glenn,
I'm going for the latest post tonight
I still personally think it can be done...as stated before, it's output now in MacImprint and ilustrator which uses layers...did you explain away this one, or am I just too tired and mush headed tonight to remember?
I can't believe that implementing some sort of logical layers function could be any more difficult to use than what they have now...which can drive a guy nutz!
There has to be a brainiac computer geek who can figure it all out without it being difficult for people like me. Put out an ad in the paper Gerber!
Glenn....how do you feel about the editing functions? I think they are unecessarily difficult: Is it me, or is it impossible to move more than one node at a time? And having to constantly switch between curve and sharp when moving handles is really annoying.
I'm going to bed....hopefully, I won't have any Omega nightmares. Have a good one. Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Todd,
Re-read Bob's post on MacImprint. It can only see all of the objects as a single substrate. This screws up any chance for what you consider to be "logical" if it were implimented in Omega. In fact, to make it work, you'd have to give up some existing features already in Omega. That's not good.
As for "Detail Edit", I agree 100%. I've harped on it since it was first released. That said, it is possible to select multiple nodes and move them at the same time. Its just not a intuitive way to do it. And, switching between curves and sharp is pure aggrevation.
The whole interface needs to be simplified and cleaned up. An interactive toolbar similar to Corel would be a very positive step. Cadlink has already implimented it with SignLab e6.
What do you think about having "diminsioning" added to Omega?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
BTW, while I was at the Orlando ISA show, I met a guy who loved the detail edit tools.
Go figure.
It makes me wonder what kind of survey data Gerber has and if that is why they've done things in Omega the way they have.
[ April 16, 2002, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Glenn,
Dimensioning as in laying down quick dimension tags on the artwork right on the screen to show a customer? Yes. And also to get an accurate size on the actual printable image, when your art contains a raster image that might extend beyond what you want to print? That would be helpful too.
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
My gut reaction is "flatten at output" since that's the way I'm seeing it anyway. It may be just the way I use layers (which is actually very simplistic as I've mentioned above), but I don't see my design as being "in layers". I see it as being flat, and I do see it in terms of output, i.e. substrate on the bottom, Yellow next, Black with overprint on next, etc.
As a test to see what you meant I created four overlapping objects. (I tried to insert a screen image here but couldn't) Mental assignment of layers is as follows: Layer 1 - blue circle (no overprints) Layer 2 - white box, yellow box (no overprints) Layer 3 - yellow circle, overprint
Now, in looking at it I see that the where the yellow circle overprints the yellow box it will give me a spectratone colour in that area, so I'd either move the yellow box to the top layer and "weld" it with the yellow circle, or I'd decide that the Spectratone colour is what I entended and leave it there. Where the yellow circle on layer 3 overlaps the blue circle on layer 1 I get a green segment.
I don't think my three wishes for layers (see previous post ) violate any of OMEGA's current means of determining output order because I don't see it being any different than it currently is. I currently have to set the job up with a view to how it is going to print; I have to know which items need bleeds, etc; and I have to have the items properly stacked (or, some might say layered). All this remains the same. I can't expect to have something placed on the middle layer that I expect to print on the top.
Now, what would be REALLY COOL would be if we could select by colour and have it display not the design elements but the actualy output - you know, what it looks like on the foil when you remove it from the machine. That way I could see that I had something knocking out that I hadn't intended to, and I wouldn't do so much nashing of teeth. Most of our work is with spot colour and it can get really difficult to look at your drawing and know if you've got all the overprints, traps, etc, properly applied. One quick look at each colour AS IT WOULD PRINT would be a godsend.
Most of our design work is industrial - say a control panel with dozens of holes for switches, some cutout, some clear LED's, some green areas that should NOT be backed with white, some green areas that SHOULD be backed with white, text, etc. This can get really complicated to look at and ensure you've got everything set up the way it should be.
Maybe those of you whose designs are more graphically complex need things to operate differently, so you'll have to put your 2 cents in and explain the way you need it to work. The more thoughts, the more opportunity to get a good balance of what's most useful in applying layers (just in case Santa's listening).
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Since we're brainstorming...regarding the multiple substrates issue, probably a lot of us acquired GA/OMEGA when we purchased our Edge and never think of it in terms of multiple substrates. In fact, that aspect trips me up a lot of the time. I'm seeing it as one substrate with multiple colours.
Maybe if the layers concept is too difficult to implement on both fronts, we would choose a "mode" to work in; i.e. cut vinyl OR edge print. How much of your work is the two combined? How would this impact those of you who use both at once?
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
And I thought I wanted to buy an Edge2. I knew there would be a learning curve, but my god! I didn't realize it was the size of the moon. How long does it take to learn all this? Is there any formal training that comes with the purchase. So, much to consider and think of and learn and compatibility and pc power and and and and.................gees louise!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
LOL Chuck!!
Actually, its not that difficult.
If you've ever screen printed before, file creation is not unlike making rubyliths where some colors will print butt-to-butt, some will overprint on top of another color and others will simply overprint just at the edge of the image. Diane, Bob and I are what some might call "power users" in that we really get pretty deep into what Omega can do. While most just use the default setting, we are poking around just to see how far we can push Omega's capabilies. Beside, we are gluttons for punishment.
What we are discussing is really programming issues, not so much the program in and of itself. One of the pitfalls of designing software is that it becomes overwhelming at first glance, visually speaking. Its like Photoshop. I find it very intimidating, but as I use it more and more, I find myself liking it and understanding why certain things are done the way they are. And, at the same time, you have previous users who get upset if you change things too much at one time, because then they feel like they are having to learn the software all over again every time there is an upgrade.
As far as training goes, thats up to whatever the distributor and you decide on. There is also a BB available that is dedicated to the Edge. I'll e-mail you the address.
Now do yourself a favor. Quit dawdling and get an Edge-2! Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Chuck,
For all the complaing we're doing here...the Edge 2 is a breadbox sized wonder. If you have a decent customer base and some imagination...you can do some awesome stuff. I've used my buddies quite a bit and it still amazes me and everyone else.
Once you get the basics...you'll be on your way. I think where it really shines is in combining raster images along with spot colors. (pictures incorporated with the usual effects.) I've done some pretty neat things.
Did a construction workers logo with the letters having a photographic woodgrain w/knots fading out towards the top to white, and then having an thin inline to pop it and separate it from the thicker outline dropshadow printed in spot colors. Behind the logo is a full color computer generated buzz saw blade. It turned out real cool.
Anyway...for it's quirkyness...it's a sweet tool.
Posted by Bill Modzel (Member # 22) on :
This is getting too long to remember all the issues but we'll give it a shot. First of all, Chuck, I agree totally with your learning curve comment. Most Illustrator users are up and running with MI within hours. Of course, that's already experianced users.
Bob, your comments... Yes, we need a cut layer. I don't find this as an extra step. Option dragging a selected object in the layers palett copies it to the cut layer in a wink. Yes, type has to be converted to curves there, command<shift< O, done. I personally like the cut layer. You can see at a glance what's set to be cut and make sure the shapes are welded, etc.
Fonts will print with MI.
The ability to shift the foil print order is a great asset. I guess Omega does that too from your comment.
No, there is no vinyl color pallet to work with. Simulating a color in CMYK is no major problem and putting it on a non-printing layer does work.
Frankly,I haven't seen Omea working since the SGIA show in LasVegas a couple of years ago, and it was still beta than, so forgive any ignorant statements or assumptions. Glen, I'm not sure about the multiple substrates comment. guess it's an issue that i haven't needed. If I were to be doing a sandblasted sign with and Edge print somewhere on it, I wouldn't print it out of that file anyhow but would place it in it's own ready to print file. It could be paneled though and selected as the only panel to print if I wanted to do it that way. Maybe I missed you here.
I hope everyone accomplished and learned something here, it's been a fun one.
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Chuck, we wouldn't be able to have these discussions if we weren't using our machines to death! For instance, this weekend I produced 500 6" x 8" 3-colour Lexan labels SERIALIZED, adhesive backed, while participating in this discussion. When all was done, I only had 13 pieces that I had to redo because of printing flaws. That was followed by 1100 1" x .75", three-colour, Lexan labels, again serialized, and adhesive backed, only 18 redos. Whew!!! What a weekend. I need a rest.
Don't worry about the learning curve. There is one, same as any other software or equipment you acquire. We love our Edge2's and we can make 'em dance. Join the party, we'll see you at the bank .
As Glenn said, the users group is invaluable - and so is practice.
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
I think I'm just a chicken. I've have perfect credit and I want to keep it that way. I will have to finance, so I'll have to make money with it fast and keep it making money to keep the bank off me. So, hence the learning curve. I see me opening the box and setting it all up, sitting down to it and having a heart attack watching the days pass until it's "payment" day on the equipment. I wonder if anyone is offering a crash course on using it?
Thanks guys and girls,
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
Just wondering if any of you Omega experts had time to glance over my post....about 20 posts back about colour problems....would really appreciate any tips there.
I have Omega CP but run it to emulate CS (vinyl only), as I found importing Illustrator files was even worse in regular mode, we outsource our Edge work so I normally just forward a regular plt file.
Thanks, and thanks for this thread!
Posted by Diane Crowther (Member # 120) on :
Chuck, your distributor may offer a crash course - ours did. Also, there is a tutorial manual comes with the software so if you work through the exercises you'll get the basics in no time.
You can make money on day one, and I always find it easier to learn something using my own jobs than the ones given in the samples.
Also, some projects are more complicated than others. For instance, today we worked on lexan panels which were fairly complicated because they're printed in reverse, some areas are left clear for LED's, some text is backlit, some holes are cutout, etc., BUT we also pumped out several hundred labels with a "cut finger" symbol on it. Simple, black image on yellow vinyl.
You should mosey over to the edgetalk forum to get some perspective on this. There are many there who are brand new users. One guy paid for half his machine with the first order.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Henry,
When I get home tonight, I'll poke around and see what I can find out about your color problem.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
You Know, I still have my headache. What did I start here? I just checked out EDGETALK and there is loads and loads of info there. Yes I do believe that Glenn gets Very Anal when it comes to the nitty gritty... but in a good way, because he's always first with advice and he know's what he's talking about. But like he said he pushing the envelope. I'm hoping my new software will be here by thursday..... then I'm sure I'll have many questions, do be there for me Glenn.. please?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Very Anal??!! hehehehehe......
Actually, I just like to hear myself type.
***********
Henry,
I thought I had Adobe Illustrator 10 installed on my computer at home, but I don't. If you'll give me a couple days, I'll get it put in along with Omega and do some experimenting.
Meanwhile, why don't you try posting your same question with as much detail as you can on 4edgetalk.com. Maybe we can coax a response from someone at Gerber.
**********
(sheesh....me anal?.....nah... ...........well, maybe just a little bit......hehehehehe)
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Chuck, here's a suggestion. I have begun selling edge work. I"ll outsource the orders until the BIG job hits.
Then I'll buy one, have the rep demonstrate the machine on the actual job, and head to the bank with the first years payments already in the bag.
This is how I purchased a router and slept at night.
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
Another small frustration....although I'm sure there is some check box that is not checked or whatever.
I often send artwork to printers for businesscards or to newspapers for ads etc. I open a customers job in Omega....sometimes in comes back in another color than what it was when previously saved, anyway I go up to save as then pick ai or eps save and also save as a jpg. so they see how it should look.I have had people ring me saying the centres of the letters are filled, and they have had problems fixing that??
I open the same file in Illustrator and see the probplem they have....if you select all in Illustrator you can see blue lines around everything including the centres of letters so the info is being sent OK. How can I fix so the centres of letters remain "open" so as to avoid confusion in the future
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Henry,
I meant to ask earlier, what version of Omega are you using?
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
Omega Version 1.5.4.20 Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Congratulations, guys for a really incredible disucssion thread!
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Elbow accepted with a smile!