Got a "go ahead" for a 5' X 9' Cedar sandblasted sign (only- no install or deliv.) I quoted the guy $4800.00 which included design costs. I was willing to shave $500 or so off the price if need be. Getting costs on wood this morning, the "lumber man" mentioned that 2 X 4 would be cheaper than 2 X 6 (so instead of a 2 inch thick x 5' x 9', it would be a 5' x 9' x 4" thick). Price for enough 2 x 6 or 2 x 8 to do the job is roughly $600.00 Price for enough 2 X 4 is $1100.00 I will lose $500.00 (which was my haggleing cushion but, give the customer a much more structuraly sound sign. Should I reccomend a small amount more cash (because labor is more intense with this fabrication as well?) Should I just do it knowing that I will still make a profit?? What's your input????
Thanks for your time.
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
Corey,
It sounds like the 2X4 would not be cheaper if you have to laminate twice as many boards together. If the customer already accepted your quote for a 2" thick sign, why not go ahead with it and pocket the extra $500.00?
Suelynn
Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
Suelynn has a point. But I'd probably offer him the 4" option...for another 500 & something bucks!
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
The older you get, the more the "bottom line" gains in importance.
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
Corey ;would it not be wiser to call a blank maker to price or make you the 5x9 blank.You could also band saw the 4in. stock in half and make two signs.Just a thought!!!! Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
Your "PROFIT" is temporary and will pay todays bills and food. Your REPUTAION is for a longer period of time.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
Corey, If you make a 2"x5'x9' blanks it will need inch and a half metal strips mounted to the back for strength. Or if possible wood verticle stiffeners (cheaper)screwd to the back. It is way too big of a panel for only 2x wood. It can and will break just by lifting it up in the shop. Trust me, I have had this happen on 4' tall signs. By all means make the profit or don't do it! John Arnott
Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
I saw those All-wood cedar blanks at the last sign show, although I dont do a ton of sandblasted stuff, I loved those blanks. I would get a price on them.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
those are some important "words of wisdom" Pat!!
Lots of shops could benefit from this knowledge.
Roger Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
The mere fact you question this, should be your answer.
Besides a 4" panel will be more stable anyway.
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
I agree with John, Pat and Monte. I have made some 5'x9' signs out of 4x4's and used 1/2" all-thread as a stiffener. Many years ago had a 4" thick break in the shop as John indicated. I also would consider using oversize HDU and faux wood graining it in blasting which would save the labor of gluing and last longer. Also I calculate $5680 for this size so it should be tight anyway you fabricate. I hope you are not using a square foot formula and are actually considering the factors of the project to develop a price.
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Man, I wouldn't even want to lug a 4" thick sign that size around my shop. How many helpers does it take to flip that sucker over? Let alone somebody having to install it... On the basis of efficiency, I'd make that thing out of 2" nominal stock and run 2x2 battens up the backside. (or metal angles).
As for the extra cost, it's an upgrade in my opinion. The client has a choice of spending extra for it if he perceives it as an added value. IF he even wants it. Does he know how much it will weigh? It could be a problem.
Posted by J & N Signs (Member # 901) on :
4" thick sign...gotta be something wrong. The sign should be 2" thick regardless if you use 2x4 or 2x6. The only difference is the amount of boards needed! 2 6" for a foot, 3 4" for a foot..
The price of 2x4 cannot be more than 2x6 or 2x8.. Been there done that! Board Feet Measure BFM = (width x thickness x length)/12 2x4x8=5.333 board feet 2x6x8=8 board feet Price is normally based on one thousand board feet.(ie.$500.00 for 2x4x8 (for one thousand bfm)which would be 1000/5.333=188 boards of 2x4x8
Lineal foot is measured by the running foot. Hardware and lumber stores usually sell in lineal foot. Beware!
[ April 05, 2002, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: J & N Signs ]
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
WOW! Some great responses here...thanks! I have decided to stick with the 2" thickness and am now settling on back bracing. My present employer (not SignCONCEPTS-me) did the last signs 8x8 with 2" x 2" square iron tubing all welded together- that's how I am leaning however, I've been told if I throw (3 or 4) 2x6 pressure treated on the back, it would be even stronger than the iron. Perhaps the iron is overkill.?
Posted by dveenema (Member # 833) on :
Is this a double or single sided sign?
4" thick? Your kidding right?
Why anybody would even think about screwing around making the blank themselves is beyond me. You a lumberjack or a signmaker?
Order a blank, use the time you'd spend making one yourself to go sell the next job, finish the sign and pocket the money.
It ain't rocket science, folks!
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
I trust my skills to produce a sandblasted sign but, I DO NOT do the sandblasting, that I farm out. Besides, this is a fun project...it beats doing a NO PARKING sign. One of my past employers did a 3'X12' sandblasted sign with 2x4 cedar and used threaded rod (x3) down the center of 'em. It came out BITCHEN so I thought I would toy with the idea. I am not.
As far as having someone else make the sign for me...I am not sure I would trust the place as much as I trust myself. Maybe overflow coroplast jobs or MDO or banners but, for the price I am getting, I want to give the customer the white glove treatment and be able to aswer any fabricating questions they may throw out at me.
A fun job........I can look at my sign and say...I DID THAT!!!
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Like Joe, my first thought is that a 5'x 9' sign will be HEAVY at 2" thick and incredibly heavy at 4". Assuming this sign is single faced (you don't tell us) some sort of back-bracing might be called for. It's tough to offer realistic advice without more info. Is the format vertical or horizontal? Which way does your grain run? How is it to be installed (between posts? on a wall? hanging? All of these factors come into play. Also consider the expansion and contraction of a wood sign that size - at 5" across the grain, it could swell and shrink over 1/2 inch due to humidity and temp. What are you using on your end grain to control moisture infiltration? Unless your planks are well-matched for grain and internal moisture content, and unless the bracing on the back allows for some movement, that sign will tear itself apart.
On anything that size, I'd seriously consider HDU with a plywood backer. But if you are absolutely committed to wood, take all of these factors into consideration. Talk to people who have actually built wood signs that size, listen to their advice, and good luck.
Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
Corey, I feel that if the sign is single faced, the thickness of 2" would be fine but needing rear braces. The back bracing of 2 x 2 x 1/8" steel will be the way to go. It costs hardly any more than wood and will never warp. It will constantly pull the sign towards flat, unlike wood bracing which will warp and reside with the face. You can also weld on steel brackets to the outside 2 braces for side hangers to the posts. All in all, I would go with the steel frame and paint it. Jack
[ April 08, 2002, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: bronzeo ]
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
That's what I decided. with angle iron welded on the sides for easy installation and Cam,as far as your advice to get advice from people who do this stuff.....that's what I am doing...on Letterhead.
Here's another question that I'd like advice on.
I am clear staining and solid color staining portions of the single faced sign(oil), it still needs the sanding sealed before I lay down my blast stencil. right??(laquer?) to avoid grain peel up. The laquer won't attack the oil stain will it?
Posted by Steve Nuttle (Member # 2645) on :
Corey, We just finished two 42 x 82 inch sandblasted redwood signs. On all our cedar/redwood blamks we use sanding sealer before appling mask for the reasons you mentioned. After blasting, we sand all the masked areas to free them of the sealer. I have found that while you should be able to paint over the sealer, it often times gives an uneven finish. For staining I would definitely sand off the sealer. The two sign we just finised were finished with Cabots semi-solid oil stain. When I get to work today I will take some pics and post. We braced the backs with angle iron for all the reasons already mentioned. If you use angle make sure that you slot the holes for your screws so that there is room for expansion and contraction.
Best Regards, Steve
P.S.- I would have really pushed for HDU and blasted it with a grain frame. Sometime though clients have their little hearts set on a real wood sign. Go figure!
I have edited this post to include my email response to Corey and add some pics.
Corey, Thanks for the mail. I am attaching a couple of pics for the one sign we just finished. Unfortunately the slots don't show on the close up I took of the angle. I used outside corner trim that you can buy at the lumber yard. It is used for dry wall applications I think. It's not the real thin stuff but somewhere in between. I just used inch screw and not lags. The whole idea is to stiffen the sign so it will not break apart along the grain. I slot the holes the same size as the screws but make them elongated. Since I only run angle up each side I am not concerned about expansion across the sign only along the length of the angle brackets. The signs are supported top and bottom with brackets made of angle that the sign sits in. I am not convinced that more than one coat of sealer really helps. I do know that when pulling the mask off a little care goes a long way. Some of my guys pulled it off like a band aid on a hairy arm. Fast and furious! Not the way to go. Hope this helps and feel free to contact me with any more questions.
Best Regards, Steve
[ April 09, 2002, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Steve Nuttle ]
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Corey, What you apply prior to masking for the blast depends on the mask. I use a mask that requires nothing. I also don't find a laques sanding sealer to be a dependable exterior base coat. We do several signs a year in that size range and usually run threaded rod through the boards. On a sandblasted sign, some splitting can actually enhance the effect, as long as the structural integrity remains. If I'm only doing a 3/4" blast and I want the sign to look heavier, I'll often make a thicker frame around the 2x sign. Have fun!
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Good advice above. Also, if I were making one that size single sided, I would choose all vertical grain boards. All of it will not be true 90 degree vertical grain though.
Choose boards with consistent growth rings/density, not wide and narrow, if possible. Their expansion/contraction differential will be less.
Choose boards which are perfectly straight. If they have slight crowns, turn all the crowns the same way if possible. If you don't they will "remember" if you forced them to bend in the clamps and will be under constant tension.
I would definitely alternate the grain when stacking the boards together.//////\\\\\/////\\\\\ like so. This will help keep the sign from warping.
Make the joints on a table saw instead of a joiner which will leave shallow saw marks to allow th glue to penetrate and let it grip better.
Clean the joints meticulously with a brush and air. Use a filter on the air hose. Glue wont stick to dirt and dust.
Use West System epoxy.
Clamp the boards just enough for the glue to begin to squeeze out. Stop! Don't clamp any tighter.
If it's one sided, use backer boards perpendicular to the grain. I would use 2x6's. At least 3 of them maybe 4 on a sign of that size. Glue them on with epoxy and screws. Put at least 2 screws per batten. The boards will expand/contract at closer to the same rate as the blank.
[ April 08, 2002, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
I had a question (or two) for you...I am aware the expansion and contraction that wood goes through daily however, am concerned with the backing frame being installed the correct way. When you say "slot the holes", do you mean drill your holes 30-40% larger than your lag bolts-please explain? Are lag bolts overkill? Also would you drill holes through the underside of the square tubing so there's not as much water build-up? And last question...would two coats of lacquer sanding sealer be recommended? I have had the grain pull up on me more than once. Or should I just put one coat on and let it dry for 2-3 days.
Can you tell I haven't done one of these in 4 1/2 years???
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