Hey heads. Bruce Deveau - brought something to my attention today I thought was worth discussing. He mentioned on Mike Murray's "Southland Collision" thread that a drop shadow on a right-slanting letter should be on the right. This makes a great deal of sense even though it is contrary to what I was taught and have always followed. Think about it - placing a shade down and to the left on an italicised capital "I" would put it pretty much dead in line with the letter, leaving very little stroke along the side of the letter.
This strikes me as a great revelation that need to be shared, because I was taught by the old brush slingers who trained me to put all drop shades down and to the left. I understood it at the time but can't seem to come up with the reasoning for it now. It's easier to paint that way right? (at least for right handed painters because of the stroke directions). I thought it had something to do with the amount of cutting in required too, on certain letters. Was anyone else trained that way?
I've done it left for so long, I don't even think about it anymore. I just automatically do it to the left - universally - every time. It's so ingrained that when I see shades on the right it looks amateur to me - a sign of either poor training of maybe a lefty painter. Now I'll need to stop and remember there are exceptions to every rule.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Joe
I've always done shadows down and to the right... but then I'm self taught too. I've always done things backwards it seems, and the hard way too.
But I agree with the logic on this one. with the lettering slanted to the right, the shadow should too just for balance.
The letterville logo is the same way.... do we have to rethink everything we do now???
Maybe if you are a morning person the shadow goes left and of yopu sleep through mornings and only see afternoon sun then the light always comes from the right???
hmmmmm.
-dan
[ March 27, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Mark Neurohr (Member # 2470) on :
Joe, Dan,
I don't even want to put myself at your level (I've seen both of your work), much impressed I might add...... but here's my 2 cents..........
Almost all of my shadows drop down and to the right. Almost all lettering will slant to the right (most all) and the shadow dropping down and slightly to the right seem too be a natural. I have tried it in other directions, but they keep on leaning the same way??
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
I’m with Dan’s thought process on this one; down and to the right. Born and raised here in the states I read left to right, top to bottom. I want the person reading the copy to digest it this way as well, hence shadows, a complimentary component, go to the bottom and to the right.
However, IMHO, it is all relative to the light source. Put a light at the 5 o’clock position on right slanted text and I doubt very much that the shadow will be on the right side of the copy. I’d be curious to hear what is being taught on this subject in college?!
For an additional thought; shouldn’t shadows take on the color of the media that the shadow is being cast upon? Why do I see solid Black shadows cast upon Yellow backgrounds? Or even White backgrounds?
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
i was taught that the shadow goes botom left. but try that with an arc copy. i think the really issue is interpretation and the light source, and how it will be best read.
also i see so many signs with red letters with a black drop shadow or shade. black and red read the same visually so hense you have a big blob to try to read. im my opion the shadow or shade should inhance the letter not compete or take a way from the readability of your meassage!
just my 2 cents and opinon.
chris
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
Self taught here and I do the majority of my drop shadows down and to the right especially on Italic or script. Must have come naturally
Arced lettering looks good with a shadow straight down or to a vanishing point at the radiuss of the arc.
I also leave a "relief" gap between my drop shadow and the letter in most cases. Therfore you can get a good "readable" image when you put a black shadow on a red letter:)
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
As a recent example of a well executed shadow check out Bob Darnell’s recent post in the portfolio section. The second picture in particular reflects how Bob made the shadow take on the properties of the background color(s) the shadow falls upon. In that picture I see seven different colors that the shadow is cast upon and, IMHO, it is implemented perfectly.
Whether you push buttons or drag lines (or both) to achieve your output, it still requires competence on the “input” side of the equation.
Excellent job Mr. Darnell!!!
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
According to a number of books I have on signwork, in earlier times there were at least two levels of competence in the art of lettering.
Before automobiles came along, the high priests of the craft were the wagon letterers, and by extension I would guess those who lettered and striped carriages. These people looked down with contempt on the signpainters, in no small part because of shadow placement. The wagon/carriage crowd thought it was only right and proper to shade to the right and below the letters. It may have been slower going, but in those days, speed was not the big thing it is today.
These same people felt that the signpainters-- a lowly bunch-- bastardized the craft by placing shades to the left and below the letters. Whether speed was the issue, or somebody just thought it looked better this way is open to question.
I am sure there were other problems between the wagon/carriage people and the "just the signpainters"--- it sort of reminds me of the paint versus vinyl thing. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Hehehehehe Bill...ya ol'Horse...yer right! Signpainters used a down and left because the shadows were easier to paint! Very little, if any, slanted letters were used. Carraige decorators did it down and left it was technically more difficult! Both did arched letters as down to a vanishing point! Both did split shades.On very ornate letters, direction of the shade is equally difficult, with a brush.
Today's sign shops, use all 3 methods when on a puter!
Back in the really ol' days....when we were painting animals on cave walls, with fur on a stick....letters weren't invented yet! Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Waddya mean "we" Si? You keep tellin' me yer older than I am, and I only drew pics on the wallpaper, not the cave walls.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
As far as hand lettering goes, far fewer strokes shading to the left. E.C. Matthews basic philosophy on shading except on scripts where shading to right is preferable. I don't really believe you can have hard and fast rules on it though.
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
Just a little addition to Bob's thoughts, though most of you probably know this: the shadow colour of any colour is mixed by adding some of the complementary colour. Therefore the shadow colour on yellow,i.e., would be archieved by adding some proper purple to the yellow. Try and mix black into that yellow instead and you'll end up with some ugly green. BTW my drop shadows go mostly to the left and below, but there is really no rule to that.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Black on white is one of the highest contrasts there is. Why anyone would choose to make the shadow the strongest thing on a sign is beyond me. Adding a "relief" helps but it's still a poor choice of colors as far as legibility goes. This is not a matter of taste either but legibility. Substitute a soft gray for the black shadow and legibility will improve greatly. Plus the gray allows the red to keep it's richness, get black up against red , even with the relief and the eye sees a muddy red.
Ever wonder why red fire trucks look so good and read so well with the gold leaf and black shadow and the white and orange ambulances can't be read with the same gold leaf/ black shadow combo on the white doors? Gold leaf on a white vehicle ALWAYS threw me til I saw a photo of a white race car Bruce Deveau had used gold leaf on. Only he did the lettering in black and did the outline in gold leaf! Not only was it very readable it looked super classy! Seems Bruce knows more than just where to put the shadow:)
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
go look at my truck on the post "steve and barb are at the beach". SIGNS HERE & NOW is an old circus type letter, in chrome yellow, and geo says the shadow should have some of letter color, so i did an orange shadow, and then all of it outlined in process blue to seperate it from the metalic purple background. lot of colors...but very effect for drawing the eye to it. and its shadowed to the right, iam left handed...all my shadows go to the right.....
[ March 28, 2002, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on :
To determine the angle of a shadow on copy one must first determine the angle of sunlite during the majority of the day the sign would be visiable.,....
Posted by Miles Cullinane (Member # 980) on :
. . timi got it. but it hard to always where you customer is going to put the sign. I learned shadows from the signcraft magazine. But I was also taught that if ever the sign is well below eyelevel you put the shadow above the lettering and to the left.
Anyone hear the same thing? Posted by Bruce Deveau (Member # 1600) on :
Hello 'Heads,
It seems the issue is flexibility. As artists, we are required to integrate "rules" and apply them with common sense to the situation. In general, any decoration needs to enhance readability or it is a failure. We have all seen examples of shading that actually took attention away from the copy.
And so, the general rule for a shade is to promote contrast...for example, a white letter on red will usually be helped by a black or very dark shade.
It's a bit more complicated if you have a dark letter on a white or light background (as in the example above, white background, black letter, grey shade). The shade actually takes a small amount of contrast from the setting, but the relief of white next to the letter saves the readability and is a successful decoration, regardless of the side that it falls on.
And there are exceptions, of course. I have seen very successful works that apply the opposite...Such as a yellow background, white letter, and big black outline and shade to create contrast where there was none. This method works well on mid-tones such as light blue metallic, on which nothing shows up well without some decoration.
Thanks to Joe for the post and for all the great comments. In contrast to political and OT posts, these type of learning posts are what letterheads are all about!
Sincerely, Bruce Deveau
Posted by warpaint (Member # 2395) on :
I say the hell with all these stupid so-called rules. Shade it in the direction that is pleasing to the eye. I've broken almost all these stupid rules in the sign world (shade in this direction only ,no script on a curve, slant to the right only, etc.) The only one I can't get to work is lettering in all upper case script! heheheheee! How do you think some of this beautiful work that nobody's done before get popular? It's because somebody was daring enough to "step outside the lines".
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
I haven't read the other posts here, but I'm popping in to say that for me the rules on shadows are ... It's gotta work, it's gotta look good, and it's gotta be consistant thoughout the design. Hey! ... No switchin' light sources mid-stream!! Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
LOL I am with warpaint. If it looks good......do it. Why follow the rules.
Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
quote:As artists, we are required to integrate "rules" and apply them with common sense to the situation
Apply with common sense…. So that’s my problem!
Great post everyone, many thanks.
Posted by Mike Murray (Member # 840) on :
I agree, if it looks good then do it. Rules suck anyway, and are made to be broken. But I found it very interesting that there were rules in the first place. With all the work posted here I am very surprised this is the first time this topic has been brought to light. I almost always put shadows down and to the left, don't know why, just do. This has been a great post, very informative. I think I got more than my 50 bux worth the last few days......
Posted by Bernice Tornquist (Member # 16) on :
Hi Joe...
Am self-taught and do mine down and to the right.
I'd like to know the reasons 'why' your instructors taught you down and to the left.
Tell us what you remember.
Thanks.
Posted by Rob Clark (Member # 787) on :
A shade is just that....... a shadow of the text cast back onto the background and logically the color of that shade should be a tone of the background. Where that shadow falls is purely a matter of the most appropriate choice of light source. No hard and fast rules, just as has been said "common sense".
I have always thought it odd to see shades used as decoration, where the shade is more dominant than the letter itself, i.e. Black letter....Red shade. In this example the "Shade" is actually the "edge" of the letter and there needs to be a "shadow" cast from there. In my world, this was called "Mock Block"
We dont see "Mock Block" used much any more, too much work perhaps, but I find it interesting to figure out the shapes the shadows would make seeing as they are cast from a 3D shape.(letter + edge)
Anyone use "Mock Block" shades? If you really want your work to "Pop" off the background this is the kind of detail you need to pay attention to.
RobC
Posted by Scott Moyer (Member # 1433) on :
We do all shadows down and to the left, I was taught by an old snapper he said it was a sign of a beginner if the shadows were done on the right or the sign painter was a lefty, He said you read left to right and you don't want to read into the shadows gets confusing I think the computer has changed layout alot and it's not as critical anymore, I have a hard time painting them on the right side, I guess there is no right or wrong way. I for one never slant letters to the left either exceptions passenger side of race cars.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
This one is for Miles. Partially quoting from one of the old books titled "Antique Auto Body Decoration for the Restorer"-- there is a line which reads in part "except in the case of the sunk-bottom of cars, when the shade was thrown on the top and right side". There are other "rules" in here e.g. in split shades the darkest color goes next to the letter--the shade never looks right if it is greater than the bars of the letter, and a reference to angles on shades being usually 45 degrees.
From a personal point of view, I like to outline script all the way around with a heavier weight to the left and bottom. It looks better than it sounds.
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
I have always shadowed to the left and down. for some reason it seems more natural and easy, at least for me anyway.
this drives chuck berg crazy(chuck is an old sign buddy of mine, hand lettering since the early 50's) he says down and to the right.
i really don't think it matters as long as the contrast of the shadow doesn't overpower the letter itself.
great post, the debate goes on.
mark
Posted by Bob Darnell (Member # 27) on :
I place them both down and to the left and also to the right. I am about three times as likely to put the shadow to the right, however.
I seem to remember being chastised one time that putting them on the right was "wrong", but I can't see why someone would say it is undeniably incorrect. I've been following this post with great interest to see what other reasons people might have for this. Right or wrong, these are some of the considerations that I use:
To me, putting them on the right gives your eye a strong starting point on the letters themselves, instead of confusing things by introducing the shadow first. Putting them on the right also seems to fill in the negative spaces of the letters that are "open" on the right, while putting the shadow on the left seems to create an even greater emphasis on those spaces.
The only thing that bothers me about putting them on the right is that it tends to push the copy to the left, which is going against the direction we read. But it's all in how you want to look at what's happening.
I can't say getting the shadow correct in relationship to the sun and the sign's location was ever a factor for me... but may be something I consider in the future.
I also don't mind shadows that aren't a realistic colour, as long as was stated - it doesn't overpower the message. I feel that it is just another graphic element, and can be manipulated to achieve whatever goals you may have for the design.
...of course... I could be wrong
My conclusions? Whatever works.
(p.s. - Thanks, Mr. Gilliland!)
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Well, that was a pretty good response everybody. It's encouraging that more than a few were taught down and left - it means I'm not crazy.
Posted by Arthur Vanson (Member # 2855) on :
I shade down and to both left and write but, probably more often to the left when painting and to the right with vinyl. I like to weight the bottom strokes by about 10%. Seems to give the lettering more stability and a better grounding. Naturally it steepens the angle from 45 degrees, I like to think it look a little more dynamic for that reason.
When shading to the right I always feel compelled to put a thin stroke down the right hand side of ‘R’ and ‘K’ legs, even when, in strictly geometric terms, there shouldn’t be any.
Before vinyl, drop shadow was rarely used in Britain and looked very exotic on the few occasions I did see it. Wonder if it was the same in the States and elsewhere?
Apologies if this is a double post, nothing appeared to happen first time!
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Bob I like the way you think.
You are right in the fact of right shading make our eyes think that the lettering is slating against the Grain of how we read. And true enough it does fill in the negative spaces.
Working with a left shadow help the flow of things as this is the way we are taught.
But as you and others said (If it looks Good then do it!)
We all will draw a different picture of an Apple! Who's to say which picture is the right one!
I Don't Know! Posted by Jeffrey Vrstal (Member # 2271) on :
More often than not I do the "down and to the left" shadow. I am also left handed. I thought that the post above that talked about beginners and lefties was funny.
I also am self taught and probably learned that things look the way that they do from primarily "right handed" people. Down and to the left just looked more natural to me.
I have an old sign book that describes how to hand letter. After all of the instruction it apologizes for not being able to show left handers how to apply these techniques and wishes us "good luck".
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I'm gonna throw a wrench into the machine here..
I go yet a different way and use BOTH shadow directions on the same job.. ie: vehicles.
I do all shadows in vehicle applications as if the light source is coming from the front of the vehicle, which means on the left side I got shadows on the right, and on the right side I got shadows on the left.
Seems to me that's the only way to do it realistically, on a vehicle at least, and all I ever do are vehicles.. I rarely touch a static sign. Posted by Dave Hodge (Member # 1415) on :
I mostly do a block shadow down and to the left,with an offset so that it is quicker. I think that the point with a block shadow is that it is meant to make the letter appear as if it were fabricated from say HDU. Therefore the position of the shadow would depend on the position it was meant to be viewed from. I.e., if a letter were to be viewed from below the eyeline, a block shadow on the top would make the letter appear to be falling off the substrate. conversely a block shadow below a letter to be viewed from above would also be wrong. A drop shadow on the other hand represents a shadow cast by a light (sun) on a vertical surface so the position of the shadow would depend on the light source. Deciding on how to block or shade therefore depends on each particular job.
[ March 29, 2002, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hodge ]
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
it all depends on the light source. it comes down to which angle you want the light to play against the surface of the letter..
no rules, just right.
thanks joe rees, for calling attention to the shadow.
mark
Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
Interesting post.... Down and right here except for when I fell like breaking the rules I just did a logo for "Rapid Roofing" the letter was block italic RAPID and for a movent I shaded it to the left, I tried it the the right and it seemed to fight the Italic to the right
Posted by Jonathan Androsky (Member # 2806) on :
Y'know, I learned to paint my shadows down and to the right. Then once I moved halfway across the state, I noticed that everyone painted their shadows down and to the left. Could this be a goegraphical phenomenon? Posted by Scott Moyer (Member # 1433) on :
Jonathon It must be I work here in eastern pa & nj I've really never seen any shadows down and to the right I belive all the jersey style lettering is definetly down and to the left, when I moved to florida 8 years ago I started working for a billboard co. they put their shadows on the right it drove me crazy all those years doing it the other way I hated it, and actually I had to stop and think how to do them. Has any one ever seen quality jersey style lettering with heavy shading to the right?I don't think I have but thanks to joe for opening this can of worms I have something else to distract my driving.
Posted by warpaint (Member # 2395) on :
I'm from Jersey, so of course i do Jersey style lettering! For speed, down and to the left (less strokes).But I think most of the time if you are using a drop shadow it looks better to the right. Maybe us Joisey guys are either to busy adding all those background panels and airbrushing to shade to the right, or maybe we're just to damn lazy!
[ March 29, 2002, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: warpaint ]
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Hmm, on the contrary - I think most Jersey is stuff is down and to right...
At least all of my stuff, and RIch Dombeys and Berts are usually the same....drop to right...
I guess it depends on what angle you look at it...
GOod one about all the panels we're using, Warpaint...!!
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Hmm, on the contrary - I think most Jersey is stuff is down and to right...
At least all of my stuff, and RIch Dombeys and Berts are usually the same....drop to right...
I guess it depends on what angle you look at it...
GOod one about all the panels we're using, Warpaint...!!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
check out some of the national brand names...that have shadows...down and to the right..BARQS ROOT BEER, BUDWEISER, ARMOUR ALL,BUSCH, AUTOZONE,BASS, A&W ROOT BEER,OFF, COORS LIGHT,DIAL SOAP,MILLER AND LITE BEER,McDONALDS,MOROSO,WALGREENS, WRANGLER go look for more,...stock cars....shadow is alway to back of number....right side on left of car....and roof
Posted by Marty Happy (Member # 302) on :
Hi All....
The beauty of designing on a computer is that it let's us see how a shadow would work on particular lettering... whether is more appropriate and attractive on the left or the right side. I have done both because sometimes it just doesn't look right on one of the sides with certain letter combinations, especially those that leave little negative space and of course the aforementioned italicized lettering. Several times I have even used a shadow effect that disappears into the vanishing point centred usually below but sometimes above the line being shaded. That works particularly well with lettering on an arch. I don't think there should be any rules or guidelines... just what ever appears appropriate and enhances lettering.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......
not so loud. My competitors might overhear. Ya see, they seem to prefer "up and to the left."
Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Geesh, if I hadn't read the first post I mighta thought this was a survey of how you boiz pack your equiptment!!
I've always done my cast shadows and drop shadows as if the light source was in the upper right hand corner......habit....and it just feels right to me. A:)
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Packin' our equipment! Ah-Hahahahaha! I'm still laughing. Good one Adrienne.
Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :
Adrienne, I'm so embarrassed. I read your post while in the public library and everyone looked when I laughed out loud.
Joe, I think left and down was used so much for a very mundane reason: It was easier for right-handers. Somehow it became accepted as correct. I prefer right and down most of the time, and not just because I'm left-handed. Well, maybe it is. But on script? If a tree leans to the right, the shadow will be right and down. If it leans left, it will be left and down. But I also agree with the 'no rules' comments.
Brad in Kansas
Posted by Arthur Vanson (Member # 2855) on :
Oh yeah Brad? Well what if it was the dead of a moonless night, there were no street lamps, the tree was still leaning to the right, it was stood close by a building to the tree’s left and was floodlit from the ground to the right? And it wasn’t too foggy and someone was there to witness it. Where would the shadow fall then?
Never say never. Posted by warpaint (Member # 2395) on :
My equipment is supposed to be long enough to go left or right? NOW YOU TELL ME!
Posted by bill riedel (Member # 607) on :
This will probably be the last post on the subject. I was taught sho card lettering and it is all about speed. Shown in the example way above, the shadow on the left and bottom have less strokes and can be done quicker. You can make your days pay a lot quicker, finish the job sooner and go on to the next job. The bottom stroke of the shade looks better when a little heavier than the side stroke. The other element I find necessary, is to always leave a little space between the letter and the shade. This is like adding an outline between the letter and the shade without actually painting it in. As far as all the national brands having shades on the right, well they are done at advertising agencys, not sign painters.
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I’d be curious to hear what is being taught on this subject in college?!
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