quote:

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Catch a fish for someone and you have fed them for a day. Teach that person how to fish and they have the knowledge to feed themselves for life.

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The above quote pretty well reflects our goal here in Letterville. There is nothing wrong with teaching Leslie Alan how to find public domain clipart and/or font websites. Someone may even recommend a good book or course to help all of us improve our drawing.

I'm troubled by some of the responses posted. There is never a need to be rude. In this case, the original poster may not know the difference between copywritten artwork and the public domain stuff.

It's important to remember that the original Letterheads were apprentices...not yet highly skilled professionals. I've often said that the only dumb question is the one a new person is too afraid to post out of fear of ridicule or rejection.

Our policy concerning the trading of copywritten is clearly stated in the Laws Of Letterville that all of us agree to follow when we register for the priviledge of posting here on The Letterville BB. In this case Leslie did not ask for something that I would consider illegal.

If these requests for artwork drive you nuts, and I know how many of you feel, why not just ignore the post? Those that want to help are more than welcome to suggest sources of free clipart or recommend one of our quality Letterville Merchants that carry clipart.
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There are days this place reminds me of that song "Harper Valley PTA." I want to ask Leslie to please remove his reference to the hockey game and the rest of you to remember to insure you have clean hands before jumping all over others.

 

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Posted by Ron Helliar (Member # 398) on :
 


[ July 03, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Ron Helliar ]
 

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Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
 
When love and skill work together ... they don't ask for free clip art.


 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I've been gone for the weekend & saw a clipart topic Friday but didn't check it out. Tonight I saw the ...protocol topic by the same person & figured I'd check out the drama. I still have not checked out the original post, but although I totally agree with David's "broad brush" comment, I figure Leslie endured a fair amount of attitude to warrent the offhand remark.

I can't believe Steve would find it worth the time & trouble to oppose a "I'm glad your team lost" kind of remark. Sounds like kindergarten. I'm glad you did not delete it yourself Steve although I would have never known, but I think that would be way too petty.

I was rooting for Canada too! So I was stoked that they won. (Can I say that?)

I will go and read the clipart replies before too much further comment, but I think begged, borrowed, or even stolen clipart does not negate the possibility of "skill" being involved in a design, or a masterpiece for that matter. I do not endorse plagerism, I just don't think true creativity & the use of clipart (regardless of the cost or source)are mutually exclusive.

[ February 26, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
 

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Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
 
Idea Alert!!!
Something Steve would have to approve and set up - what if Letterville had a download area where people could submit original vector art for downloading (like racing horses)? They would have to certify it as their own (copyright free) to put it up on permanent display. I know I have a lot of clips I use on a regular basis that came from all over...a rather small part of it is actually MINE - created by ME for my own use. It's not much on it's own, a scallop shell here, a unique panel shape there, a rope font and a chain font, but if we all pooled together it could grow into a useful database of royalty free graphics. For example, just yesterday I created a group of multiple pilings with rope wrappings. Somebody could use that. I bet if we all looked around we've got a collective wealth of unique, original stuff we could offer. What say you?
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
excellent idea Joe!!
 

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Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
 
If the few people who appointed themselves moderators would resign , ,then there would be less bad feelings, and more peace.

Let Steve do his job and the chance of broadsiding someone by mistake would stop. I wonder how many good people stopped visiting because of the pot shots.

There are a few posts on other boards about a perceived double standard. This is just another example of it. Looking back ive watched a person request some art and get it. Ive also watched others ask for some art and get blasted.

Peace
 

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Posted by leslie alan emery (Member # 2681) on :
 
gday again....
Maybe steve is right...maybe we are all a tad uptight about the whole thing and I guess it was silly chucking the remark in about the hockey....bad timing and bad humour....I apologise... but yu can bet yur sweet booties I wont be asking for clipart again....phew....
sorry steve for all the commotion this has caused, you do an excellent job with the board and it would be silly to see it in anyway threatened over such trivial affairs such as this

regards
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
No harm done Leslie. Many of us in Letterville, including myseld are fanatical Letterheads. We meet each other throughout the year at live meets, talk to each other half the night on the phone and dream about Letterheads when we sleep.

When you are consumed with something this much, it is easy to forget that we are the minority compared to most in the sign business. It's hard for us to comprehend that most involved in our trade consider it just a job...another way to make money.

Like any decent fanatics, we want to share our Letterhead experience with everyone in the hope that they will join us. Why someone would not want to join in is a mystery that I will never understand. I guess that's part of what makes us fanatics.

I guess my point is that we want to see others get beyond this asking for clipart stage and learn to do things in other ways. Truth is that most free clipart is worth exactly what you pay for it. There is a pride that comes with investing in your own tools and paying your own way. The easy path is not always the best path. At least in the minds of us crazy Letterheads.

On the other hand, us oldtimers need to exercise a little more patience. In my early years, learning the most basic information was next to impossible. I know I asked a pile of dumb questions along the way. We like to ask everyone to "Leave your guns and egos at the door," but it's easier said than done. It would be a shame if a future Letterhead was discouraged from going to their first live meet because of a silly, misunderstanding here in Letterville.

It's almost 3:30am here. Does any of this make any sense or am I rambling again? Don't answer that! I have feelings too you know.



[ February 26, 2002, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
 

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Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
 
Actually this has been a very productive thread when viewed right.
The comments from Steve that it is best to encourage others to think out of the box and come up with a variety of different ways to achive the goal(in this case..harness racing)cimes right in with Joe's idea of a collective resource for Vector Images used in our trade!
I hesitate to use the term "clip art" as it has the conotation of basic laziness and/or thievery.
I for one will draw an original ANYTHING in black and white line art.
Send it via snail mail for some one to scan and vectorize themselfs for thier use IF that is what is wished.
MY OWN PERSONAL VIEW ON THIS "NEED" CLIP ART
is......you wouldn't need it so much if you REQUIRED the customer to supply said Clip Art.
Which falls in line with REQUIRED deposits from customers.
For some reason that seems to escape me.The customers are running the sign business'of the people that NEED thier friends here on the BB
to get them out from under a situation they,themselves created by NOT standing up to the customer and being the professional they NEED to be!

Hope I didn't get anyone mad.
As I see this a GREAT opportunity for everyone!

P.S. What does Hockey have to do with all this?

[ February 26, 2002, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: PKing ]
 

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Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
 
My note on clipart in general. About 90% of it out there is royalty free to begin with. No one can convince me that most of the clipart suppliers, sticking a copyright on their disc actually have legal license to the artwork that they have on it. Are any artist receiving royalties that you know of? I know of at least 4 artists that were scammed out of their work by these companies. In many (not all) cases, every piece on the disc has been scavanged from another source that they are not paying for......for instance. Holy Cow,, with 140,000 clips,, how many royalty checks do you think they send out per month? Does anyone think that they employ the artists who did the work or purchase the licensing........That said, I am totally in agreement with protecting "artists rights" when they really exist. When it is obvious that they do, I certainly pay the respect. On the other hand, when it is obvious that they don't, this stolen crap on my discs, is free for the asking. The clipart market in general is a sess pool, and I don't really respect it much. Its kind of like meeting a bank robber leaving the scene, and him asking me not to tell anyone. I really don't like making deals with the devil... That said, I am looking forward to buying a Butler Gold disc, and keeping it to myself, out of respect for the artist. I'm pretty sure its one of the few legit ones. If you ask why I use the discs myself, I reply .....Try to be competitive in this market without them. If everyone is playing with a high percentage of stolen chips, I would hate to sit in the game with my paycheck...... Oh! I think Joe's idea about the clip gallery is great and a very fair way to proceed... Jack

[ February 26, 2002, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: bronzeo ]
 

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Posted by Andrew Holmes (Member # 2064) on :
 
My company sells the product, VECTOR ART, to which we claim copyright and trademark. We sell, I believe, the "original" VECTOR ART product first offered to the sign industry in 1990. Hardly anyone knew what the word vector meant then. We nearly changed the product name then as we had to keep explaining to folks what VECTOR ART was. I am glad we did not change the name as now much line art is referred to as "vector art,"
a little bit like photo copying being naturally refered to as "xeroxing," no matter the brand of machine.

In turn, the artists in our "clipart" collections (now combined in THE MEGA COLLECTION) hold copyright to their original artwork, and a royalty is paid to each of 52 artists every quarter for the use of their original artwork. Every penny due on royalty has been paid, and no person has ever been "ripped off." On the other hand, every time someone provides an illegal copy of a VECTOR ART product, or even one image for that matter, the artists, as well as my company are stolen from.

I am pleased to announce that we just recently became a letterville merchant and our web site, maintained by RolandDGA is under construction so and the new product is not yet shown there. However, the MEGA COLLECTION is available at leading sign supply distributors world wide.
 

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Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
 
I was amazed at some of the responses yesterday to the request for harness artwork...that's been dealt with, and people have apologised.

I hate the way people get jumped on by "regulars" for a simple request for lineart.

Nobody asked for copywrited artwork it was a help for something that perhaps was not so everyday.

I think if we can help one another without infringing on copyright then why not or help in pointing somebody in the right direction, and sure in a perfect world everybody could draw and scan what they need....but we don't live in a perfect world...but I always figured we were on the same side here.

I own CD's from Vector Art, Bee-line, Mike Jackson,David Butler, Aurora Graphics, Designers cafe, Sign DNA etc, and have not traded files from them, but if I am caught out and in need of some help, then I figure this is the place to ask, somebody might have something they have digitised or scanned years back and know it would fit the bill and help out, or with a link to somewhere where that type of material could be purchased. I would do the same with any of "my" drawings or public domain artwork.

But not copywrited, or protected stuff....like the Hells Angel's font I have here for example. (there was a request for help there, a few weeks back).

I think we need to come down off the pedestal give people a break, help and make them feel welcome, without stepping on the toes of the companies putting this stuff together, or the artists creating it in the first place, and if we can't help perhaps think abit before having at dig at those that do ask.

We all started somewhere, and I for one learn new stuff everyday, that's what makes the job a challenge.
 

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Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
 
Andrew, My hat is off to you for your integrity, and my post not aimed at anyone like your company. In my disgust, of what many many others are doing, I rage. I think you know what I mean. Thanks for stating your position as fairly as I have stated mine.
 

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Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
 
I agree with Henry and Bronzeo. Some people sure have high pedestals they put themselves up on!! My~O~My! I notice it is always the same people trying to slap others in place.

[ February 26, 2002, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: cheryl nordby ]
 

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Posted by John Cordova (Member # 220) on :
 
Well said Henry!
 

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Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
 
Me again, with a couple thoughts regarding a clipart archive - addressing what may be concerns on Steve's part; Extra work for him and potential liability.

Having such an archive would be an excellent place to strongly reinforce Letterville's stand on art protection. Anyone who didn't grasp those rules would be reminded of it throughout the process of accessing the archive, with disclaimers and a registration process or "I Agree" button.

It would also be our first line of referral to anyone asking for art.

People submitting art would have a similar afidavit to agree to, stating they are the sole originator of the art and solely liabile for any ownership disputes arising from its public distribution.

That still leaves Steve & Barb with the task of setting it all up. I don't know any way around that...(having an open FTP area would not be an option I'm sure), but some firm rules about file formats, file sizes, and allowable content or catagories, should keep the maintenance time and bandwidth in check.

I hope the Shortreed's will consider the possibilities. Might be a nice addition to the site. I know things only get done by discussion, so I'll defer to other opinions now.
 

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Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
 
Since Leslie and I have the same by-line ... I couldn't resist having alittle fun with it!

I just can't take this issue and get all worked up over it. My feelings on clipart swapping remain as they always have ... much in the vane of what Pat King touches upon in this thread, and what Dan Sawatzky has expressed on this board before. I would hate to see this board become a clipart swap meet.

I view clip art as a tool, and the acquisition of it as part of MY job description.

They're part of what the customer is paying me for, and another phase of my services to them. To me, coming on this board for that kind of help is equated with coming on looking for a hammer. Or like asking someone to do part of my job for me. Just not part of my thinking process I guess.

Asking for the resource to tools, and asking for the actual tools are two different requests, in my line of thinking.

Janette
 

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Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
 
Joe,others,,, I think it could be as simple as a page of vector drawing offerings to members only. The thing could be as easy as several people offering empty webspace for housing the images along with right to use.. I could give up 10 meg right now. Actually most internet provider services come with 10 meg free, that subscribers don't even know about. Put the meg space in a bank, and update that space amount as you need to.... Now it is as simple as making downloadable links from files or thumbs to request from other members by e-mail. Another reason, and a great one for being a member or Letterville. If you no longer want to participate, or share the file then pull it. How simple is that? Jack
 

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Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
 
What I get from this is a clear picture of the old saying "Straddling a fence". If you don't know what that means just start a post and ask for a drawing. If you receive a copyrighted version, just ignore it. If you receive a shareware version then let your mind digest it for unlimited use. Either way you get it just the way you want it free, without any effort of yours.
Just go ahead use someone else's piece and sign your name to your work and collect the check.

[ February 26, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Santo ]
 

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Posted by taurus signcraft (Member # 572) on :
 
I have always stayed right out of controversial topics and refrained from posting when the debate was heated
what could be misconstrued or misinterpreted easily serves no purpose in building a community,
only in causing rifts which end in destruction of what I feel is a vital link to like minded professionals in our industry
as a disclaimer; I have no doubt, by accident, offended folk in my many years here however

like Steve I am a fanatic when it comes to the letterhead movement, I am passionate about a system which includes all folk travelling along the same path, wether they are 1 or 100 steps into the journey

sharing ideas and know-how, experience and asking questions is what drives a letterhead in my opinion to progress and develop their talents

inspiration comes from many quarters, who among us hasn't gotten a great idea from a copy of Signcraft, AMAL, Signs of the Times, or any of the other great mags out there

remember where you came from, and that the only way to get to where your going as a letterhead is to turn and help the person behind or beside you, just as you are helped at times (in my case many, many times)
the minute you answer someone's request for support with a negative message they stop asking

as intelligent humans we can find a way to say what we think while being considerate of how folk feel

I agree with Steve that teaching someone is far superior to doing it for them.
who wants a teacher who is forever criticising and judging your imperfections with out any regard to your inexperience in any given area

just recently I was looking around my system for a file I’d made a while back, after looking thru a heap of backup cd’s it occurred to me that I had lots of artwork there that represented not only hundreds of hours of work but also lots of $’s of my time which had already been paid for, it now owes me nothing

what's wrong with sharing this original art or design for inspirational purpose, until someone sees an idea, how can they know what is possible

all ships rise on an incoming tide

cheers
gail
 

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Posted by leslie alan emery (Member # 2681) on :
 
If nothing else has eventuated on this whole debate it has least bought to attention the fact that maybe a "vector" bank may be the way to go...with a charge for each withdrawl...
As I have quoted before I had a helluva lot of clipart as I know most of you have.....some Cds of which I paid near $500 for .... but you find when you open it up that with every 100 images you see you may find 5 that you can honestly expect to use....I have coral draw 8 and it did have harness horses on it, but not in the vein of which I wanted so I guess I took the "lazy mans" way out and tried to do it the easy way...
I have spent many an evening browsing the web for good clipart sites and have found some great ones,
but how many sites can you join ....it tends to become quite expensive...even Arttoday with the way the aussie dollar is situated costs twice as muchhere to join as it does in america..... anyway it is food for thought....
regards
 

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Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
 
Leslie, You touched on a great point there. You can own a dozen books with 10 of everything, and still yearn for a usable something you can't find. It's not that we didn't pay our dues (if you think you owe them), but more that we recieve more crap than usable material. My favorite clipart CD is 85% bitmap, so you know what this leads to. I vectorized a locomotive train with 3 cars the other day that took over 2 hours, at my own time/expense to land a job. You can't always get paid for this. Anymore with all the clipart, it is more of your failing to find it than it not being available. Is that our customers fault? I hate clipart...It is the artists demise, and its here. Its the "new fangle" Bronzeo
 

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Posted by paul taylor (Member # 2782) on :
 
gosh not to encourage people to take copyrighted materail and be pirates but have you ever look at the printing equipment section of E bay? Tons of stuff for what a audio cd costs. It is a fact of life People the CD burner is out there and here to stay. Every Stupid Peeing calvins it is there. You name it you got it. I am not saying it is right but if your competitor does it you have another ethics problem to cross. I have created in the past my own computer artwork from scratch. I have digitized scanned artwork manually and I have had to node edit my corel clipart too. So as far as skill and ORIGINAL ARTWORK nothing is the world is very original It is usually recycled,inspired,
revamped or imitated from somewheres else. The logo sites in russia have logo that I know came from cd s like AdArt becasue I bought those CD's 5 years ago.
 

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