Im restoring period lettering on this old truck for a car dealership. The truck was painted and clear coated using modern day autobody refinishing techniques.
I bought new cans of 1 Shot paint. The paint was sitired, a little bit of paint was placed in a paper Dixie Cup and the paint was so creamy I only needed to add 1 drop of Mineral Spirits.
I cleaned the doors with Rapid Prep.
The paint has taken 2 days to dry. "Whilst" puttin on an outline, the paint just easily scratched off with my fingernail when i went to fix a boo boo. So I got a little carried away, as you can see and scratched off a lot of paint.
I have two questions:
1. What went wrong? or What did I not do correctly?
2. Where do I go from this point? Do I remove all the paint? Or Will a second or third coat of paint right over the top make it more stable?
here are the pictures:
LETS ALL LEARN FROM MY BOO BOO! 
I would like to know what caused this so I don't do it! hehehe!
J.G. Kurtzman
Norwalk, Ct.
BTW, Imron is the same as most any other urethanes and can be striped, lettered or graphics applied it you know what you are doing. A person who letters or stripes vehicles knows more then a person who doesn't and this is why certain tasks should be handled by qualified persons who do this on an everyday basis.
Sorry to be so blunt but thats just my no holds barred personality.
I agree with Joey that it's not related to Imron in anyway, I do hundreds of trucks a year painted with Imron, preped right it sticks fine. ask the dealership what material they used t paint it(brand name)...the rest are right,you can letter over any urethane without a problem,but you already said its not an imron product,its a basecoat/clearcoat and joey is right some of the heavy silicon glazes they use in final buffing can cause this....but where we've seen this happen b4 is when SIKKENS is the material used for the color or clear coat,for reasons i wont go into here,lets just say its not real user friendly to any other material other than Sikkens,regardless if you use rapid prep not,even roger will agree with me on that one....there is also a certain dupont clear that causes this prob,but its not used a whole lot and ya never know if they're being forced to use it due to VOC regs etc
[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Gavin Chachere ]
On my stripe site I state that 1-Shot lays over the surface and does not bite in like the aggressive HoK lettering and striping paint, but not everyone wants to use HoK which BTW would have been less of a problem because of its ability to bite in and pass whatever was stopping the 1-Shot from adhering and drying no matter what substance if any was left behind.
Also on the site are some how-to's as to using both HoK and 1-Shot together so drying time is really cut down to the minimum.
Bottom line is preperation, after design, preperation is everything.
1. Bad batch of paint
2. Glaze on the truck
If it is a bad batch ob 1Shot, I can't help you, call Kevin.
If it is a glaze on the truck, and it probably is, since it is a restoration:
A. Clean off the lettering
B. Reclean the surface with heavy rubbing compound, or Comet Cleanser
C. Clean with Rapid Prep, Reletter
d. Polish the dull spots with regular polishing compound.
You are not the first guy who got bit by an overzealous bodyshop!!!! i don't know how many times I've had them say: "It's all ready for you, I already cleaned and waxed it, cleaned and Armour-Alled it, cleaned and Blue Corraled it, cleaned and (you fill in any one of a dozen more)!!
Why is the tuition in the School of Hard Knocks so dang expensive?!
listen to the pros.
it has happened to me too.
like glenn said, "Why is the tuition in the School of Hard Knocks so dang expensive?!"
been there and done that brother.
mark
There is a very hard and fine powder that I bought from Esoteric Sicn Supply called 3 micron alumina. This stuff scratches the hard surface enough for enamel to bite and still doesn't dull the gloss. We use it for prep on powder coated vehicles mostly.
In the same respect I had the same thing happen to me when I lettered my personal vehicle this past spring,when I ran my van thru one of those new high presuure car washes. The paint had only been on the van for 3 days & I think it had dried on the surface & was still green underneath,not to mention a prep mistake in the beginning on my part. The way I fixed it was to put premask over the area tat chipped off & then with an exacto cut away a mask where the letter was. I then sanded with 600 wet & dry to scuff the area inside the mask & relettered it. No problems since!
hope this helps ya!
Thanks for the great information. Many of you have asked some question I failed to address.
1. I cleaned each door 3 times with Rapid Prep, changed paper towels frequently.
2. The blue tape is a guide line for my paper pounce pattern. The pattern has to be used three separate times.
a. for the lettering
b. for the shadow (didn't get that far)
c. for the lettering inside the orange and blue circles (old GMC logo)
3. I dusted the pounce paper with an old sock full of baby powder. Next I took an number 2 lead pencil and tediously drew lines over the dotted powdered lines. Then I cleaned off all the baby powder, because I didn't want any dust in the paint. I also kept washing my hands to make sure no oils were coming out of my skin to set on the surface.
4. Its been raining here all week, and a little on the chilly side, however, I have halogen lamps on both doors "cooking" the paint.
5. I had to double coat the orange color, and it started to lift the 1st coat of orange...real orange peal...and I quickly stopped that and it has almost cured out ( i think)
6. This job has to look circa 1964. Total paint, hand pounced pattern, no vinyl stencils used, no fine line tape, not even scotch tape, used to make the top and bottom of the edges straight.
I have to make this look the way a person "perceives" a sign shop would have painted this truck in the mid 60's. So even though many shops used scotch tape back in those days for straight edges, I can't use it because it "looks" like I cheated. No sign shop would have spent two days on this job...they would have knocked it out in 4 hours. Wish I could!
7. The white gallon container is mineral spirits,
the little spray bottle is a spent bottle of kitchen cleaner that now has soapy water in it.
( I use my wife's left over cleaning spray bottles)and this one has been used over and over all summer long, there are no chemicals in it other than a little
dish soap.
Have I missed anything?
I have had paint flake on me before, and after I coated the lettering with a second coat, it was harder to scratch off. It was like the second coat glued the first coat together.
This truck won't get pressure washed like the idiot truckers do to their freshly pinstriped trucks!
I'll let it cure some more, double coat every thing, and let you know what is going on in a few days.
The body shop had this truck 4 months, and I figure I can have it a few more days. It drives me nuts to work on this more than 3 hours a day.
I think it took me 1 hour to paint "BLOOMINGTON, ILL. on each door because I was so dang picky and have been tediously sharpening every corner.
Thanks again guys. This learning curve is something we can all benefit from.
ps. One of the first things that I learned in sign making last year, was don't use waxed cups.
this could have contaminated the surface.
along with incorrect surface prep, this could be a contributing factor to a failed lettering job.
i don't claim to be a hand lettering, off the brush sign artist like a george perkins, monte jumper, terry teague, etc.
hind sight is 20/20.
been there.
i would have surface prepped with something a little stronger than rapid prep or mineral spirits.(most commercial spirits are oily)
on most new paint and clear coat surfaces you must "etch" the surface to get good paint adhesion.
if it started "fisheyeing"that would have been a good indication that the surface was not clean.
i would have applied application tape or "tuffback", both a frisket.
and kiss cut on the truck doors with a good sharp exacto knife,(this would have given the hand done look) peeled the mask and wipe off any surface contaminate with isopryl alcohol.
just my opinion, for what is worth.
thanks for bearing your faux paux dave.
mark
[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
The 60's held lots together when it came to lettering and alot of the work is still used today, right down to comic book lettering. Check out the work on drag racing from that era, not too shabby if i remember correctly.
The "Perceived Look" is based on WHAT WAS DONE BY THE TOP SHOP(s) IN BLOOMINGTON ILLINOIS in the mid 60s.
Remember,we are talking Midwest USA, who were slow or even rebelious to catch on to the new ways of the right and left coast.
Everything in this town was the "old way" ( like 1925) My mentor's father wrote for SIGN OF THE TIMES as the freelance "OLD PRO" and now is part of the American Sign Museum (formerly Sign of the Times Museum.)
Their "look" is what I have to replicate, because for so long, for so many years, that is the only way this community looked at sign work. The local museum here if full of old pictures of buildings and vehicles all lettered up. I can't go sticking "JERSEY STYLE" layouts of the same era on a Midwestern truck....cause these people wouldn't understand.
By the way, the local Cadillac dealership is having me do this work. This dealership has been owned by the same family for a long, long time.
The also have pictures of all their old vehicles hanging on the walls. Another reason I can't do a "mod squad" lettering style on this truck.
And, one final note, after trying to drive this truck in and out of the garage, I am glad we are in the year 2001. I don't think power steering was invented yet....gheesh....my arms are sore from trying to steer that clunker!
-----------------
Laura, Im gonna find that typo and fix it!
(stir the paint right?)
I use a rag service and the rags they supply cannot be used for prep work...(something in them) that isn't condusive to sticking paint.
Another culprit is fabric softner that may be in a rag you use ...even vinyl won't stick after you use a rag with softner in it.
But my bet is "brush oil"...say what you like, lard oil never gave anyone fits...the new synthetic brush oils won't mix with the paint...(their not suppose to right?)
But I'll go a step further here...if I understand you right the paint only scratches off in some areas and not in others? My bet is you inadvertantly started lettering with out cleaning the oil out of you brush (done it myself)another problem arises as brush oil works down out of the healand into the paint...
This is especially a problem if you use motor oil or tranny fluid to oil your brushes.The paint drying time is retarded...scratches off easily in spots...gets a hazy film over the lettering in spots...any of this sound familiar.
My recommendation...clean it all off...prep as before (use paper towels) really clean your brushes well open another can of paint and proceed .
If none of this helps...I don't know any more than anyone else here does...
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
Have you also considered that the sign gods have decided to leave me alone and they are messing with you this week?
I clean the surface with mineral spirits on a new paper towel with ban ami sprinkled in to give it some tooth and wipe horizontally, like the wind (especially on surfaces which will get refleted light across and dark colors). I final wipe down with dry, old, cotton t-shirt direct from the laundry into a box in my truck for the clean ones. Bon Ami seems to scratch up the surface just enough to give the bite needed and does clean off the oils.
I might also refer to the theory about using hotter solvents? That one can make some sense, but only on the first coat and only if you are sure it does not lift the substrata! Afterwards using alkyd enamel, only use mineral spirits to slightly reduce One Shot.If in subsequent coats, you use lac. thin., you will definitely see lifting!
Time between coats??? I wait, if there is any way. The next day is better then in an hour.
I buy a gross of medical bottles in various sizes with lids. They are cheap, steril, impervious to solvents and always perfect. No wax cups!
I would also avoid ALL SQUIRTZ ALWAYS. Once you use it, it will take you years to get it out of yoyur system.
Good luck!
2 dont use mineral spirits. Take a rag and wipe mineral spirits on a painted material and let dry then use a good slow enamal reducer in the same way. After they dry one will be very very slippery and thats the only proof you should need.
3 1shot is a hydrated paint product if it is to thick it will skimover and it could take days to harden.
Theres my reply. Good luck!!!
pvt. bubba
If you have not run up against "sikkins fleet paint" (wet look for fleet tuck jobs)then you
will!!! And you won't like it !!!
This paint (as I understand)contains SILICONE
I know, what am I talking about ?
Well I painted cars begining in 1965,lots of "custom" stuff.
The calls I have processed from our customer help service all turned out "sikkins" it dosn't allow paint or adhesive to stick too well to its surface !!
Roger
Good luck with this.
Roger
I called the body shop. They told me they used Dupont V7500 production clear coat on this truck.
They claim they did not use buffing compounds or any waxes.
More clarification. I didn't use shop rags, never do, I only use Mardi Gra paper towels or Bounty...the quicker picker upper.
I went over the big city of Peoria, to the Dick Blick store, and picked out 3 of their finest quils in stock, a #4, 5, 7....they didn't have a lot.
The brushes NEVER got a taste of any oil, motor or lard oil, for the start of this job.
I used 1 brush for the white lettering, 1 brush for the orange, and one for the dark blue.
So lets review some things that are suspect:
1. The clearcoat: DUPONT V7500 may need special preping....but what?
2. The paint may not have been completely stired, however, but I practiced on some scraps of Kometex and aluminum and its sticking fine on them.
3. I did use paper cups, not waxed ones. But I did thin with 100% mineral spirits. Since the paint was new and creamy and did not pile up when I dipped into the paint with a pop sicle stick and let it run back into the can, I only used a couple drops of mineral spirits in a small dixie cup filled 1/4 of the way up.
4. I did not use hardner, Dick Blick didn't have any in stock the day I stopped in, and they didn't have any 1Shot reducer...or I would have bought them and used them.
5. Its been cool and rainy here all week. The only heat on in the shop right now is from 4 halogen work lamps which I placed on each side of me on each side of the truck to add some warmth and light my vision. I left the work lights focused directly on the truck door all last night at a distance of 40 inches to gently keep the truck doors warm.
6. Paint may need more time to cure ( and I didn't clarify it before, but this is 1Shot LETTERING enamel and NOT bullentin enamel.
Thanks everyone for the great tips that has come out of this.
What I will do next:
1. Wait one more day for the paint to cure, then double coat with hardner in the paint.
2. If it still comes off easily, then I'll take it to the Blue Becon Truck Wash around the corner and have them blast it all off.
3. Then, I go make another pot of coffee and start over. This job isn't about the money any more...this is a quest!
Here is one more pic of me laying on the floor with my legs underneath the truck and my back and neck proped up on a base ball base and and a catcher's "knee saver" ....thank God for baseball equipment!
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
) or the humidity. Like I said don't expect the body shop to admit to putting any thing on it. Really work over an area on the tailgate with Rapid Prep, 3812, alcohol, everything you can get your hands on and then spritz some water over the whole tailgate and see if you notice a difference anywhere. Is your tape sticking good to the doors? On a side note, and maybe this story will make you feel better. Like I said sometimes One Shot scrapes off easily the next day. Back about fifteen years ago I used to stripe cars at the local BMW dealer. I did them for about six or eight years until the body styles changed sales managers. One day one of the salesmen went around to about thirty cars I had striped the day before and took his thumbnail and scratched paint of the fender of every one of the thirty or so cars Why, I have no idea? I never got an explanation, I was to busy explaining how if he ever did it again I was gonna take his yuppiefied suspenders and shove them down his throat pull one end out his ass hook, them together and hang him from the industrial deco art beams in the showroom
I touched them all up, uggggggghhhhh!!!!!!! and everything was fine. It was always easy to scratch them up a day or so later. Did I have problems? I gave the same warranty on the stripes that BMW did on their paint, five years. I did over 3000 cars for that dealer and had to warranty 3 (three) cars.
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
I have a humidity guage (there's a name for it I can't recall) in my shop, and normal here is about 70%. I have seen paint dry slowly in 90% humidity, but there seems to be a real jump in drying time between 92-96%, where 1-Shot can take a couple of days to dry instead of the usual 8-10 hours. But it will dry eventually if humidity is the sole problem. A dehumidifier and a infrared heater may be something you should purchase.
If the paint's not drying below the skin, the surface incompatibility may keep it from drying at all, and it will all have to be stripped and started over.
Well, good news. I just came in from inspecting one letter "R" in the word "Barker" that I had double coated yesterday, (that would be Thursday morning of Oct 11. Now its 24 hours later and that letter is dry and not scratching.
I got a phone call that warned me against double coating the lettering with hardner because it would probably wrinkel up the first coat of white.
It doesn't take to long to double coat, and I am convinced the paint just didn't dry and cure like I thought it should.
So I just finished up double coating the big letters, and after another cup of coffee, I'll craw under the truck and double coat the "Bloomington, Ill."
Over the weekend, I'll let you know how stable the lettering is.
I really thought this job would be finished and I could start moving my shop to the new location this weekend....sigh! First things first!
As far as special prep...stick with the rapid prep,DO NOT use convential wax and grease remover for any reason and try this : soap n water wash first,wipe the surface with MEK on cheap paper towels,do not use shop rags or anything you washed yourself,then use rapid prep,then you should be ready to go,its worked for us in the past....also i forgot who recommended not using convential rag service rags...if you dont believe that,fill a jar with some lacquer thinner and sit the rag in ot for a day or so,and shake it periodically,you'll be amazed at the crap that comes out f it
Glyserin has replaced silicone and perrifin in final glazes. Its best to check the ingredients of any product used before you paint.
Ain't that so Z?
Just a footnote to what Gavin stated about towells(and Dave as well)
buy the "cheapest" you can find !!!!
The better ones may have CHEMICAL content !!
I know Bounty uses something that leaves a residue and thats something you want to avoid !!
L.E. why clean 2 or 3 times?? I thought you were called lazy for a reason !!
Want a sample of Rapid Prep ??
Roger
p.s. Ray once again, Gavin nailed it "your paint is different then our paint".
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: ray hill ]
Dave, glad you solved your problem...
Jack have been known to let go!!! 
Either jack it up high enuuf to work on it or just jack up one side (the tilt angle will make it easy to paint, even though it's low) 
Since AKZO (Sikkens) was the parent company for Chromatic before it was sold to 1Shot, I attended many company seminars about all products they manufacture. They do not use silicone in their products due to adhesion issues for multiple coating. Parafin oils are compatible with most alkyd enamels which is why I always reccomend their use as a brush oil. Parafin waxes were used in pre-1960 spar floor varnishes to enhance the top gloss and compatability with subsequent wax applicaitons. The tail solvent which floats on the top of the 1shot enamel should be thoroughly mixed back in to the paint. It is primarily a flow agent and carrier which is a significant component for ease of application and can retard the drying if too much is in that which is applied. The use of mieral spirits can often add top oil to the mix which will strongly retard dry time. Baby powder contains a trace amount of baby oil (mineral oil) and zinc oxide, both of which will retard drying of paint. Note that you may have three additional retarders added to this mix. While rapid prep is a valid cleaning agent, some surface contaminants which are a result of the outgassing properties generated durng the cure process of two component urethane coatings must be removed using a strong solvent. We have always had the best results with high-temp reducer as it drys slowly enough to continue to cut through the contaminants so they can be wiped away before they are redeposited as the solvent dries. When a clear coat has been applied, one should test a small area for adhesion by wiping on enamel and wiping it off to a thin layer. This will dry in a few minutes and can be tested for adhesion with the fingernail or magic mending tape applied over it. If it still lifts, then the surface must be physically abraided using any number of preparations from bon ami to scothchbrite pads to sandpaper. Paint relies upon a physical bond to the surface, not a chemical bond so there must be tooth to the surface. Many paints and primers have enough tooth to their surface naturally but some of the more sophisticated gloss products such as the clear top coats are so smooth that nothing will adhere to them.
Just a few points to ponder.
The funny part is... I'd venture to say everyone here would have solved the problem and not known anymore about whats wrong than any of us do now.
But it has been a good excercise in futility don't you think?
Glad you got it fixed Dave...let's hear your best reasoned out explanation of what went amiss.
My best guess of why the paint scratched off so easily is the humidity factor. The second coat of paint dried much quicker. So I think it felt dry, but was not cured.
Now a funny side point, a bird had **** all over the top of the cab, and I had to scrub very hard to get that off. So why does bird **** stick better than paint? I didn't even prep that part of the turck!
Next time I'm gonna mix bird **** in the paint!
Dave, I've gotta say in all my years in the business I've never seen anyone lay under the truck to letter it Get a bar stool top, the kind with a back. You can sit two inches off the floor, have great back support and easily work at 10 to 12 inches off the ground.
PS..ray...would love to hear sometime about the waterbase products from over there,up til now,all of em regardless of brand pretty much bite,and thats not a big secret,the only one worth a damn seems to be waterborne primers used as a sealer
Dateline Maui, Hawaii
Roger announces a new product:
Rapid Prep II
This product will solve any adhesion problem you ever had in life. It will remove humidity from the air in your shop to increase drying time. This product comes with its own sterile rags for wiping down the surface. It will even clean up bird Poop. Heck it will even cause paint to stick to liquid silicone.
Sign painters were heard at a recent splatter jam in Alabama saying that this stuff was so good they couldnt get their hands on it.
One sign painter said, "Its so powerful, the taliban is afriad it may rub them out."
DISCLAIMER TIME!
This was meant as a joke and not meant to offend anyone dead or undead.
I am curious to see the final prognosis of what went wrong and what was done to cure it. so far it sounds like its working out. If nothing else its been an educational string for me to see peoples opinion and ideas on how they would deal with such a nightmare of a problem. I hope I never experience such a dillemma.
Im sure that the double coat is going to save my butt on this job. I'm leaning towards a triple coat of white.
Its now Saturday, and it is raining again! Since when did Illinois become a rain forrest? It has been raining on and off all week.
Now as for laying under the truck.....
I grew up watching guys paint this way. They did use an automotive floor creepers sometimes, and I realize now it would have been a smart idea.
Vinyl really spoils a guy, ya know. You take for granted how easy it is to slap letters on a surface in a hard to get to area on a truck. After 14 years of vinyl work, I can still hand paint, but I really have forgotten a lot of little time saving tricks.
While doing this job, I kept remembering those little tricks AFTER the task was completed!
I'll post a picture on MOnday or Tuesday when the truck is finished. Maybe the sun will be out by then.
Gavin...when I get those Emails....I just laugh and think "OK do it the way yer freind said! I'll read yer post on the BB crying about yer problem!"
Roger
The paint/prep angles have been pretty much covered, so I wont add to them. With the truck, a floor jack under the frame on the side you are working on works well, or two short ramps on the same side, assuming they will fit without crunching bodywork. If you are still too high with a stool, throw down a piece of cardboard.
The sit-down angle-- if you can find one, an old wooden soft drink box-- the 24 bottle kind-- works as a 3 height stool. It is just a little narrow, and will once in a while tip over backwards, but then who ever said sitting down was easy?! Drawback with these is that the corners will start to loosen up after a while. I just cut some MDO to fit the open side and fastened around the edges. No more loose corners, but it didn't cure the tipping over.
These old boxes also work real well for gaining a couple inches of height when a step ladder is too much, or not available.
