Can someone give me some advice here? This is a sign design I did last fall. I had it hanging like you see here with chains but I didn't have guide wires. I also had a smaller braket on the bottom of the sign which I don't show here in this design. (I guess that was my first mistake having a braket on the bottom) Well getting to my problem. We had some intense winds, like I've never seen before, about a month ago and it pulled the bottom bracket right out of the wall and the sign and pulled the top out and was hanging by one screw. The sign is made of 18lb sign foam and its dimensions are 36" x 36" x 1.5". There are brackets out there that my vender showed me that are very heavy duty, the material is carbon steel, high tensile strength, dimensions 1/4" x 1 x 1/2". The cost is around $300!! Do I need something like that? Should I be using metal rods instead of chains? Is there a curved bracket out there that will work better? Can someone coach me on this? In case you were wondering about the sign...it was repairable. A couple of knicks and chips but OK. Thanks for your input. Judy (As you can see "no picture" I didn't know, can you help me without a pic?)
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Judy,
You should contact Cam Bortz at Ponside Ironworks for a bracket for your sign. I am sure that he will have something in his vast arsenal of brackets to help you out.
Have a great one.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Hi, Judy,
Been mulling over your post, and without the picture, it is a little tough to see where the problem lies. It doesn't sound as though the bracket is at fault in and of itself.
According to your dimensions, the sign should weigh about 20 lbs. at 18 lb. density-- not real heavy. You have 9 square feet of surface for the wind to work on, and at that weight it wont take much to make it swing a lot. It sounds as though with a top and bottom bracket that it would not swing, and all the wind strain went to the fasteners to the sign and the fasteners to the wall. Just a question of what is going to give first.
Foam is tough to put fasteners to-- no grain as wood has, so through rods may be the way to go. But, at only 1.5 inches thickness and 36" to go through, well, good luck. Did this sign have any woodwork or framing around the edges?
The other brackets you mentioned-- are you saying 1.5 by 1/4 ? No 3 dimensions as in 1.x .25 x .5 Plenty heavy enough.
Have always felt that with chain hangers, anything more than about 3 links each side from the bracket to the attachment points on the sign is risky. Too many links allows the panel to not only swing parallel to the wall, but also to a lesser extent into the wall.
Guy wires to the end of a bracket never hurt, one to each side, and if weight is a concern, then one or even two up at different angles.
Hope this helps-- really wish you were able to post the pic.
Posted by Mark Matyjakowski (Member # 294) on :
Judging by your post ... the sign didn't give... the brackets didn't break ... if they pulled out of the wall you have to look at how they were attached... just screwed into wall? (what are they screwed into, how big of screws), anchored? if you didn't have the bottom bracket I could see the sign swinging very dangerously on chain. I tend to overkill installations.
around here, after that windstorm there were broken panfaces all over, grabbed up a few new jobs
BTW nice work in your galleries on your site
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Judy,
If you'll e-mail the pic to me, I'll be happy to post it for you.
creativesigns@bbnp.com (my office address)
Posted by Steve Nuttle (Member # 2645) on :
Judy,
Without a pic it is hard to see what is going on, but did the screws pull out of the HDU. When screwing into signfoam it recommended that you drill slightly over sized hole and add epoxy with the screw. We use a lot of rod on swinging signs. If I can I will try and post a pic.
Best Regards, Steve
Posted by Steve Nuttle (Member # 2645) on :
Judy here are some pic of a hanging sign we did in the fall. Hope these give you some ideas. As I said in my previous post we use alot of rod. The pic doesn't show it well but the rods have flat tab welded on one end and a peice of channel on the other. On the support arm there are slots to fit the flat tabs with holes. This allows the sign to swing in the wind but keeps it swinging in one plane and allows no side to side swinging or flopping.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Best Regards, Steve
Posted by Steve Nuttle (Member # 2645) on :
Sorry one pic.... Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Here's Judy's pic............
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Hi Judy Brackets being my (new) business, I feel qualified to remark on the problem you've presented. Most brackets on the market have a major design flaw: They provide adequate vertical support, with little or no concern for lateral wind loads. The attachments to the wall are all placed in a vertical line, so that even moderate wind loading can literally twist the heads right off the lags or pull them loose from the wall. Most folks end up supporting these types of brackets with guy wires, chains, or cables running back to the wall on each side of the bracket. While this may solve the problem, it adds significant time and expense to installations, and the resulting "extra" hardware detracts from the appearence of both sign and bracket.
The solution - and the major difference between my line of brackets and most others - is to add lateral support by adding horizontal "ribs" to the "spine" of the bracket. This spreads the attachments across the face of the wall, and resists the twisting pressures of lateral wind loading. All of our brackets have these ribs; depending on the size of the bracket they range from eight to sixteen inches wide.
So why aren't other manufacturers doing this? Simple. Money. They are selling a mass-produced, machine-welded bracket, retailing from $30 to $60. My brackets are made from one-and-one-half inch by one-quarter inch carbon steel, hand-welded, designed BY a sign maker (that would be me!) FOR sign makers who are looking for a solid and attractive installation, and prices range from $95 to just under $300. Expensive? Maybe. What is it worth to a sign maker - or to the sign maker's client - NOT to have the kind of failure you described?
I'm not going to pretend I'm not writing this as an advertisement for myself. I'm a merchant here; It's what we do. I started designing brackets for myself over seven years ago, out of frustration with the products on the market and the kind of problems you described. Two and a half years ago, upon the retirement of the local metalworker who was making these brackets, I bought the equipment and now, after two years of working out designs and experimenting with making brackets for my own signs, I feel confident enough to offer them on the market. If you would like to see what we offer, or would like to personally discuss how we might help solve your current problem, I invite you to call me at 860-599-0477, or email me at bracketguys@yahoo.com.
