I've been usin Amercan Traffic and Safety Materials high performance vinyl for a few years with no complaints untila feww weeks ago, I notced some vinyl peeling off a client's service truck. He's never mentioned it to me. I just noticed it. Another client just called to ask about a graphic peeling off his truck, just on one side, one of the colors. Iv'e also noticed that the vinyl on my showroom window is doing the same, not off the window surface but off itself (a two layer graphic). They( ATSM) have told me that using an application fluid would void the warranty so I don't use any. Anyone ever use this vinyl before? It's supposed to be super duper stuff.
Anyway, I can get Oracal, Arlon, or 3m Gerber from a couple of close suppliers of which the Arlon is the least expensive.
ATSM vinyl cost: $54.54 24''x10yd roll Arlon cost $41.50
Have I been paying top dollar for junk vinyl? Is Arlon good stuff? Can I use Rapid Tac with Arlon without "voiding the warranty"?
Which film is best?
[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :
I use Arlon and Avery, some gerber. All three are good. I like the avery the best. I do both wet and dry application. Some will swear that you have to use wet application for the physics of the vinyl to work right. I don't always believe that. I think in the end it will be up to you on what you are comfortable with. Don't let the price of a certain brand make you think it is the best. I have seen plenty of mercedes benzes broken down on the side of the road.
Posted by Lettercraft (Member # 268) on :
I USED TO USE ATSM HP VINYL UNTIL THEIR PRICING STRUCTURE WENT WAY TO HIGH.SINCE RTHEN I'VE SWITCHED ALMOST COMPLETELY TO MACTAC 9800 FOR EVERYTHING. IT'S VERY SHINY AND FLEXIBLE....GREAT FOR BANNERS ANF FOR THERMAL TRANSFER PRINTING, TOO! I'VE JUST ABOUT ENTIRELY QUIT EVERYTHING BUT HP VINYL FOR ALL APPLICATIONS. IT'S NOT WORTH THE AGGRAVATION!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
wayne i use intermediate avery, and GMI. hp avery or GREGORY. check out gregory prices....better then AMERIBAN.
Posted by Terry Scott (Member # 839) on :
I use all Avery vinyl, just make sure if you get Red it is a UV red especially if you are in a place like Florida. Terry
Posted by Dave Johnson (Member # 2535) on :
I use 3M's 7700 series vinyl in my plotter for most jobs and 3M's 3650 series for sheeting sign blanks. I use MacTac in my PC-60. I use ATSM transparent overlay and have had no problems with it. It's much easier to use than 3M's transparent gel.
Did you clean the first layer of vinyl before applying the second? I apply vinyl dry whenever possible. I also like to bottom hinge. Bottom hinging helps prevent premature contact with the application surface.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
The fact is, all vinyl manuf. will try to avoid a claim, using "wet application method" is just another "loop hole". If you have a failure, then tell the manuf. to give you proof of what failed!!
Wayne, can you describe the "cleaning and application" method and materials you used on these failed jobs?? I (of corse) for 1 beleive, if you HAD used Rapid Tac, you wouldn't have suffered this failure. He he he he
Roger
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
The graphic on my shop window is three layers instead of two:
Black is adhering just fine to the window surface.
But, Tan is peeling around the edges from the black.
Dark green is sticking just fine to the tan.
It was all put on the same way.same day.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Wayne, what I am asking is; What did you clean with(windows,vinyl,etc.)
What did you wipe with(cloth rag,lint free paper towell, cheap paper towell,etc.)
Roger
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Roger,
To be honest, I don't remember what I used to clean the glass. More than likely it was alcohol to clean the window. It is sticking like white on rice to the glass.
I used SOAPY WATER for application.
Now, read carefully Roger, before you reply.
#1 These folks (ATSM) told me that using an application fluid (other than soapy water) would void the warrantee.
#2 Their vinyl is warranted for 8-10 years for white and black and 6-8 years for colors. The vinyl didn't last even 3 years.
#3 I swear on my Mama's grave that I did not use anything but soapy water (one gallon of soap to three drops of water or was it one gallon water to three drops of Joy soap). Send it to a lab for analysis: I didn't use no Rapid Tac.
#4 Therefore it ain't my fault.Only one of three colors failed. Vinyl on top of vinyl.
#5 I already use Rapid Prep......
#6 So, be nice to me I'm switching vinyl brands........
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Wayne, Wayne, I'm just tryin to help ya man.
No lectures here, hope things go better with coke,No, No I mean I hope things go better from now on, yeah, yeah.
Just kiddin ya.
Roger
Posted by RonniesTintSigns (Member # 1669) on :
For the cheap jobs Oracal 651 Upper end.. Avery
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
3-M!!! M-3!!! 3-M!!!, Any 220 or better!!!
OK! I pay alittle more for it! But I like it.
[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Not a problem Roger.
Just wanted to make everything clear.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
So far, 3 prefer Avery. 2 Mactac, and 2 3M to name a few.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
I have always had good luck with 3m,Avery,Arlon. Roger
Posted by Steve Nuttle (Member # 2645) on :
We use 3m for almost everyting. No problems. For what it's worth.
Posted by Roy Frisby (Member # 736) on :
I use Oracal 751 exclusively. Good stuff.
One of the things that causes vinyl to delaminate, especially if it's on top of black is the plasticizers in the black vinyl. They migrate to the surface after a while and cause the adhesive to fail. I have had this problem with red on top of black. One way to avoid this happening is to cut the vinyl so that the black fits around the next layer of vinyl rather than underneath; thus, the top layer is adhered to the substrate material and not the black vinyl or whatever color is the first applied.
I hope this helps rather than confuses.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
That's interesting Roy, because I understood the client who called the other day to say that the white was peeling off the black on his graphic.
I had done a graphic of a Boston Terrier on his truck door and the one on the driver's side was peeling. Maybe he parks his truck in his yard with one side faceing south so it's delaminating first? I haven't seen it yet but told him to bring it by for me to redo.
Thanks everyone
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
You may have noticed that different vinyl colors feel differently (Arlon Ocean Blue and Bright Orange have a brittle feel and don't conform well, white and black seem to be the most elastic, from my experience). Although vinyl manufacturers give an overall rating for their products, I've found that it can't be relied on in regards to certain colors. Arlon rates their metallic silver as a seven year, but I've had it fail (on vehicles) in four. (shrinking/cracking)
Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :
Wayne, Some manufacturers do not want you to use a solvent-based application fluid for certain vinyls. I was told it was because a solvent weakens the adhesive. One of the calendered vinyls we use has this warning on their packaging.
Brad in Kansas
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Thanks Brad,
They have yet to give me an explanation on why application fluids can't be used with their vinyl and certainly haven't mentioned solvent based or otherwise for the reason.
Isn't Rapid Tac 2 made for use with non-solvent based adhesives?
Anyway, I'm switching brands.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thats right Wayne, we built it for "other then acrylic/solvent based" adhesives. Then in testing, realized it will work on acrylic as well(just a little less posistioning time).
So, that means it is a great help in "cold glass" applications as well!!
Roger
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
I should have put this in last post; A company as large as Avery marketing they're own "solvent based" application fluid, should send a message to not only the other "large manufacturers" but it tells you the consumer something as well, RIGHT??
When I have visited the likes of Arlon top execs.,and had lengthy conversation with "da boyz" at 3 M, they have expressed they're desire to market a line of "application aids", but as yet, they don't see the margin of "pay back" for the involvment. This is why you are not getting "the go ahead" from them!! We have been on nearly all the "vinyl test beds" in the last 12 years for 3M, they ask for samples,they call and tell us of the great results(in 3 states) but they stop there, they are not makeing any money on the deal, so why should they help? Well thats they're posistion on it anyway!!1
Roger
Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
Up till last month I was using Arlon, but I fear my supplier doesnt care about my business. I'm looking into other stuff.
Posted by Gray (Member # 168) on :
I'm switching from Arlon to Avery. Both are good vinyls but Avery seems to weed HEAPS better, esp. on smaller letters.
I'm fed up wasting time with weeding when I could be invoicing.
Posted by Mike Clayton Graphics (Member # 723) on :
I do alot of "short term" lettering (race cars) and I have been using GMI and MACTAC. I use Avery for commercial work. The first two brands seem two weed fine and hold up, the Avery is fantastic (premium), but man is it sticky if you are not careful weeding and drop it over the lettering
I have been sent a sample from Oracal and was very impressed by their product too.
Of course, I always apply with Rapid Tac!
MC
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I like Avery HP. great colors, feels good when you weed it (just be careful with the metallics - very aggressive adhesive. I managed it get it all wrapped up around my fingers ) For race cars, I use Mactac 3 mil stuff. I know, I know... it shrinks, it fades (someone will probably try to tell me it containcs arsenic) but, I did a car last season for a 16 yr old. His first lap, he rubbed another car. Came into the pits and there was paint from the other car imbedded into the Mactac #.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
3M 220 has NEVER failed me...ALL other brands have in one way or another.The only exception we allowed in our shop is Calon Intermediate and it is used only on banners.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
