Now if that's not a vague question, I don't know what is. Anyhow, my 5-yr old Gerber FasTrack 650 konked out today (x-axis overload error????), and it's left me wondering what to do in the meantime. It wouldn't be so bad, but it's only been 18 months since the last time it did this, and that 2-wk hiatus cost $1400, not counting shipping (@$300 more!!. Just luckily, I had a vacation planned at the same time, so it didn't hurt so bad. Well, I did some searching here and on the other sites on the internet, and I've found that brands, sizes, and types of plotters are as plentiful as tires and wheels for your truck. After narrowing down what I want and what I NEED, I know that 24" is perfect for me still, but I know accuracy on both super-small lettering and long-run tracking is also important.
Graphtec and Ioline both have GREAT deals on these plotters right now. Two of my friends have the same plotter, and have been cutting ruthlessly for the past three years with no problem. However, I just want to be sure I have all my bases covered before I go throwing money around.
What's your opinion?
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Graphtec.
Posted by Ralph Lyon (Member # 2351) on :
Boy! You opened a can of worms on this one. Graphtec is good. Know a few that have them. My self though, I have 3 Summa machines in my shop. my oldest is comming up on its 5th birthday. no problems. Suggest you visit some local shops and see their machines at work... These are the only two I would suggest!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I'm enjoying my Gerber Odyssey. Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Good idea. Glenn..........send him your Odyssey.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Sure, just as soon as I'm finished with it. Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
If it is between Graphtec and Ioline, definately Graphtec. As for me, I am keeping my Acme 4000, Excalibur series with "Ultra-Sprockion" feed and spell check(TM). Or go with the Goober 4B available on this board.
Posted by Howard Keiper (Member # 1250) on :
Doggett MUST be in Europe. hk
Posted by Tasmus (Member # 445) on :
HAHAHAHA!!
Yeah, Jim is definitely asleep at the wheel on this one!
Barry
Posted by Karen Stein (Member # 241) on :
Summa all the way...best workhorse for the money on the market. I've had mine since '94 and no problems at all. Sweetest tracking friction feed there is too
Karen
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
well i gota get a hooray for ROLAND....i got a pnc-1000 was used in 93, still have it and works fine. bought a pnc-1100 24" and will cut down to 2" scraps, love it works fine. if i had money to spring for a new one..id look at the cm-300 pro model....24" or the cm-400 30".....and they all will cut right from corel.....so you dont need gerber softwear..
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
i can only speak from experience.
i am still running an old gerber 4b with composer 6.0
it serves my needs as far as cutting vinyl, masking, sandblast stencil and some pattern making as well as basic sign layout.
i use the plotter as i would any other tool.
choose your plotter wisely.
mark
Posted by Mark Matyjakowski (Member # 294) on :
Love our summa ... super sprint is now dusty paper weight. Whatever you decide make sure it is a tangentle (sp? ... lifts blade up) not drag knife ... for tiny letters
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
One thing I found with Graphtec is they offer this thing they call "Bullit Proof Support."
There was one time that I needed an adjustment and they "next day'd" me a padded case with another cutter. I put mine in the case and they had it picked up, made the repair, shipped it back, and when I had the loaner packed they did a pick up call for it.
Between it being the cadillac of cutters, having a warrantee like that, and folks that I can call when I want to brainstorm, I'd keep buying them.
There are a few quality machines on the market. Find someone that can provide real after sales service for you where you live.
Posted by Howard Keiper (Member # 1250) on :
Thanks, Rick...
Dwane ..By all means, whatever you do, get a machine capable of tangential operation. If cutting small characters in virtually ANY material is your hot button, you definitely need a swivel (drag) knife design...nothing else even comes close. Well, maybe close. hk
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Haven't tried anything but my Roland PNC 1000 (because I haven't HAD to) I have had it for about 12 years. No problemo.
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Howard:
Nope; not in Europe. Barry nailed it with "asleep at the wheel."
In re: "best plotter." T-Series Summa no question (tangential, speed, tracking, 600 grams down-force, OPOS, ...). But, Graphtec is a real close second ... IMHO (Howard may order them differently). Gerber also makes a quality cutter, albeit the Odyssee might have fallen short of the mark (in the opinion of folks that replaced theirs with a Summa DuraSign).
Support? Summa or Graphtec, hands down. Graphtec is bulletproof. We don't dodge bullets, but we don't dodge phone calls either (pretty easy to get us on the first try).
Asthetics? Black is beautiful baby.
The worms are out of the can Howard. Let's have some fun.
Best Regards,
Posted by Lettercraft (Member # 268) on :
Bought my ROLAND 1100 new in '92.....hasn't missed a beat yet!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Now Jim,
Problems with the Odyssey? Pish-Posh (always wanted to use that term ) I just ran a 48"x50yd. roll of reflective vinyl without a single problem! And I've had my Odyssey for 2 years.
If there is a problem, its only because they don't clean the lint out of the tracking sensors every six months or so.
Posted by Howard Keiper (Member # 1250) on :
I've noticed that when the question of the best cutter comes up, the subject of cutting is rarely addressed, and those that don't actually cut well resort to bragging about how well they track.
It pays, literally, to be competitive. If the guy (or gal) up the street has a Graphtec and you don't, you could be at a disadvantage. He or she will be able to do better work and more of it.
How's that, Jim? hk <BG>
Posted by Ryan Ursta (Member # 1738) on :
Add me for SUMMA ..... I love mine!!!
Posted by Mark M. Kottwitz (Member # 1764) on :
I have a Summa T-1300 with tagential head, and opos...and I love it.
I have done 70' and 80' long paper plots and it hasn't missed a beat yet...
I have two complaints... 1 is the fact that the tagential blade holder is plastic, and could be stripped out easily. I've had mine for (3) years and it hasn't happened yet, but I am careful with it. The second is the pen used in it is expensive. Paying $19 a pop for a ballpoint pen is not fun...
Other than that, I stand behind it 110%...
Posted by Karen Stein (Member # 241) on :
Hey Howard, I'll take ya on
Ok, so in my post I raved about the perfect tracking...ok, now I'll rave about the perfect cutting that I accomplish with my Summa..it does it all and if it doesn't, I know someone in Summa will be right on top of the problem immediately. And as a side thought...ya know, it doesn't really matter how well a cutter cuts if it's not tracking right
Cheers
Karen
Posted by Jim Hansen (Member # 1927) on :
We have 2 graphtec's in the shop,an older FC2100 and a newer CE1000. Both are great machines, But I personally like using the old FC2100 better. I guess once you get used to one machine another just never seems the same.
Posted by Mel Linn (Member # 2292) on :
Signmaker IV B --- no complaints!!
Posted by Brian (Member # 39) on :
I have had an Ioline, Roland, and now the Summa Durasign... its by far the winner in every aspect - cut quality, speed, tracking, and contour cutting. Cant compare to a Graphtec since I have never had one, but I will test one for a couple of years if you need me to Howard I have also been happy with the Summa support, I almost always get through right away and if not they actaully call me back!
Posted by RonniesTintSigns (Member # 1669) on :
I don't know how good the tech support is? Never had to use it, or the repair dept. Never had to use it
[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: RonniesTintSigns ]
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Wow!!!!
I am totally amazed and thankful for the kind things our customers are saying here!!!
Thank you so much Ralph, Mark @ Slam, Ryan, Mark K, Brian and Karen (and Howard for setting Karen up for the slam dunk ... go girl!).
I owe you. So, if your address isn't in this thread, shoot it to me at jim@summausa.com. Belgian chocolates are on their way ... er, going tomorrow (connection: our cutters are made in Belgium).
Huge Disclaimer: gotta cut it off here. I have a wife and kids who've developed and affinity for my paychecks.
Thanks again gang!
Jim
Posted by Howard Keiper (Member # 1250) on :
Well, there are those who insist that just getting the material through their machine at all represents some major technological victory. I don't know that many signmakers who enjoy the luxury of loading a single roll of vinyl and running it end to end without a change. I admit that I DO know one or two and, for them, having a great tracking machine may well be the ultimate feature/ benefit. I actualy heard of one last week who didn't cut anything at all, but did a lot of full scale paper paterns. OK, that's a good example of a rare example. On the other hand, this post is about the best cutter...which implies an interest in actual cutting. There is no other cutter equal to the Graphtec 4100+. Period. If you don't have one now, someday you'll wish you did. hk
Posted by Karen Stein (Member # 241) on :
Oh Howard You are a sales guy, I am a signmaker. I almost bought the almost comparable Graphtec years ago and the only reason it wasn't comparable to the Summa is that the Summa did everything the Graphtec did, as well as the Graphtec did it, but for less money. Did I buy second best to save a buck? No, I researched each machine, tried them both out at trade shows and decided a new great plotter and some leftover money in the bank was the best way to go...but then that's just me
Either of these machines will do the job you want,as good as you can get it done,with great support..you just have to decide how much you want to pay...or get Howard to sharpen that pencil
Karen
Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
I also have a roland cx-24 and it is a worker. When I was shopping I looked at Summa. Hey Jim, If you take trade in's I will think about it. Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Can a Summa cut 1/16th" letters like my Graphtec?? .............and cut them cleanly every time?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Of course, if money is tight, you can always go back to the original plotter.....
Just think of the money you save on software. It even works when the electricity is out!
Posted by Ralph Lyon (Member # 2351) on :
So Jim, I should see them Choc's by friday? MMMMMMM Good!
By the way everyone... Didn't we go through this subject last year?
Just curious, does Graphtec have OPOS? Or is it a bomb site device?
Posted by Howard Keiper (Member # 1250) on :
Howard's just getting antsy, I guess. There's a lot of talk nowdays about getting the most bang for the buck, especially as it pertains to the purchase of capital equipment. I know Graphtec is more expensive than most. My job is to convince those three year+ survivors in the business that if they expect ot survive another three years, they'd better equip themselves to do so...and you can't do that today with entry level aspirations or equipmemt. The best cutter won't be the least expensive...it will be the most capable. hk
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I wasn't aware that Graphtec was more expensive than Summa. I did a lot of checking recently, and Summa was not cheaper than Graphtec on comparable equipment. I presently own a Summa D610, but if I was to purchase another, Graphtec would be my only other option. I do like black though. I could go a whole lifetime and never need to cut 1/16" letters: nice, but not really necessary.
(Jim Doggett, why am I having tracking problems on my 6 year old D610, what needs to be tweaked?)
Posted by Bill Cosharek (Member # 1274) on :
Pierre,
Don't know but have cut 1/8" on my Summa - high accuracy setting - with excellent results.
Did you use a microscope to weed it?
Posted by Stephen Bolin (Member # 2234) on :
Graphtec is indeed a bullet-proof workhorse.
Stephen
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Send one to Pierre and let him test that theory. Posted by Howard Keiper (Member # 1250) on :
Whether or not one actually cuts 1/16" characters is not the whole story....one CAN cut that small accurately, and the ability to do so is simply a measure of the general precision the machine is capable of. I often see on this very board (or others), posts complaining about torn cutting strips, or the difficulty weeding metal-film, or having to round the corners, apply radius, or some other work around to cover a generally poor cut. The question was asked "do you need a microscope to weed it?" No, you don't....it's a snap! So you say that kind of precision isn't necessary? I would acede to your experience, but I might suggest that if this one, little, attribute can mean the difference between your taking on a project or not, or can save you hours on the weeding table, or just makes your work look better, then you should consider my previous statement more thoughtfully...if you need to compete, that 1/16" makes a very large statement. hk
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Yo....Willy! Actually I do cut them that small for copyright schtuff, BUT......you don't weed as usual. You actually premask the little copy beFORE weeding, hold the matrix down and pull the premask up. It brings just the copy with it.
Posted by Ralph Lyon (Member # 2351) on :
Hey Howard, I noticed you didn't answer my question about OPOS vrs bomb site.LOL.
Did you miss that question, or have those little letters messed up ... never mind, I won't go there,however I am curious about OPOS on your machine... Thanks
Posted by Howard Keiper (Member # 1250) on :
Well, it's interesting that you ask the question at this moment. We have always been very happy with the way we have accomplished re-registration when mounting printed material for contour cutting. It always works...no matter the printer, with or without registration marks, etc., etc. It seems that our new SignJet-Pro also has a feature that, if you want to laminate the print, it will print registration marks where it expects to find them when the laminated print is re-inserted, and then it finds them automatically....sound familiar?
Posted by Stevo Chartrand (Member # 2094) on :
Gerber anything. Wow, not many people using Gerber machines in here.
Posted by Ralph Lyon (Member # 2351) on :
Gerber? Don't they sell insurance and make baby food? Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
All Gerber stuff here!
And I LUV my Odyssey!
Posted by Ralph Lyon (Member # 2351) on :
Odyssey? Oh yeh, we used to ride them in the sand down on the ORE. Coast. Now Honda makes a van by the same name.... Just pullin you guys's legs. 2 of my friends have goobers... they like em'
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Ralph,
Odyssey plotters are so good, even Homer wrote a book about them!
(nyuk, nyuk)
Posted by Ian Wilson (Member # 177) on :
Gerber stuff with the exchange rate is toooo expensive to even think about here I had an old roland pnc1800 for 12 years was bullet proof finaly gave up the ghost my new CM500 and my pnc1210 are not as good a machines I have had trouble going from reflective to normal vinyl a real pain
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
I have a Sprint and S750, but bought a Summa T750 over a year ago and think its great. I looked at the Graphtec FC-4100 full width machine which was not much more money than the 30" Summa,( so over here a graphtec is chaeper) and although full width would be a help on odd occasions, I cope with most on a 30" machine. I buy full width material and have it slit 30" plus spill which gives you 2 handy widths.
Posted by fontking1a (Member # 763) on :
Chevrolet...all the way. These discussions are ridiculous. By the plotter that best suits your needs as well as your budget. Roland-Schmoland, Summa-Mumma, Graphtec, Ioline is fine, Mutah-putah, Gerber, ANA-banana, XYZ, ABC, Chevrolet or Ford. They're all good, they can all break and they can all be fixed.
