In Years past, when ever I went to ask for work at a sign business and or sell work to a prospective client, it was often as not a requirement to either show some sort of artistic sketch ability and or brush skills to get the work,...period.If one could not at least sketch and or letter a line of block copy proficiently for prospective employers and or clients chances of getting the job were next to nil if not impossible. The first test of employment consisted of some sort of adeptness at design and or production. Many is the time a "sign wannabe" & or old pro would ask for work from a client or shop & the first thing that was done he or she was handed a pencil & paper or brush & asked to display their skills. One didn't have to be a portrait artist or expert cartoonist but they did have to show that they knew thier basic "abc's" & "numbers" so to speak. I would like to assume this practice has been time honored over several centuries at the very least.

Now to my point,....what happened to these skills?
I see people ask here daily for clipart,...fonts or whatever copyrighted idea you can dream up & then some,but in the time I've been coming to this site I rarely see persons asking for help to develope these basic skills,... yet they expect others here to send them the efforts of people who actually took time to learn the basic skills needed in this trade. Rarely do they ask how to do anything in a traditional manner or expect to be able to even learn,...all they need to know is how to work a mouse and whatever software they can get.Where do these folks think clipart comes from? Who made the fonts? They are the product of the efforts of those who actually took time to learn the basic skills needed to ply their trade,..period. I think some one put it best "How would you feel if you did a sign & then your competitor broke into your shop, stole it then sold it to your client?"

My understanding of the intent of the "Letterhead" movement is to share these skills so they are not lost to technology. In years past one did not have to be a master artist to survive in this trade but they did have to possess a few basic skills if nothing else to know basic lettering & design layout skills and some basic tracing skills. One of my mentors once told me,.."All you need to know in this business, boy, is your abc's & 10 numbers,along with a few puntuation marks." That is my point,..period. It doesn't take an artist to learn your abc's it's required knowlege at any grade school. Yet why do people think that if they own the software & equipment that we all should share the ends to a mean. As Steve put it give a man fish & he eats meal,...teach him to fish & he can learn to feed himself.

My question is,...after all this rambling on is what happened to these basic trade skills needed for centuries & why do so many new people to this trade feel as tho they no longer need these skills? Why do we continue to share "clipart & fonts"(just an example,I'm sure it can be applied to many of our other efforts) rather than suggest they learn to sketch and or teach them how to create their own? It doesn't take a Leonardo DaVinci to create a cartoon and or edit traced photo's to a point it can be used as clipart. Why do we not tell them if they are not capapbleof these basic skills to either attempt to learn them and or pay a professional to produce them.In the past it wasn't an option seems nowadays myself included we "trade" or "share" in what basically is the efforts of professionals who are out there just like us trying to make a living.In years past it would never have been considered to steal anothers art to help a beginner or novice we would have sent them out to copy good examples maybe,but never actually stolen the art to help someone.
 

quote:

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...after all this rambling on is what happened to these basic trade skills needed for centuries & why do so many new people to this trade feel as tho they no longer need these skills?

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Simply put.....Money. The faster you can turn it, the more you make.

Its kinda like math. Remember when as school children, we had to learn our multiplication tables and learn to do the math in our heads? Now we have calculators.

The good news is that those who "truly" have skill are becoming fewer. This puts their talent on a higher plane and makes them able to command a higher price.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]

In all manners of life we have to learn to Walk,Talk,& Chew gum! So why do some of us stop there?
 

It's at 2am and you look at your work and face up to the fact that you could do better and wipe it out and start again. Thats the kind of commitment that it takes to become one of the best at what you do and sadly, often, that level of commitment is lacking today.

It's too easy to just "cut and paste" and I believe thats this is the reason so much signage today looks so damn generic and boring.

But as has been hinted at, it's also the reason original signage stands out so much more these days.

If you really want to be original you gotta throw the clip art disks out the window, and knuckle down and go back to the drawing board.

now I'm ducking for cover.......yikes!

RobC
 

Glad to hear your up all night like some of us Slapping,Airbrushing,Pinstriping,Leafing the paints to the boards or whatever the surface!

Sweet Dreams....
 

They don't want to take the time to find what they need legitimately. They should either source it out and buy it... or physically adapt something else they have to be the actual thing they need. Almost anyone can scan a picture and then modify it to be what they need. Its not rocket science or high end art. Its a basic skill we all need to master. In the old days this was done with a sheet of tracing paper and then modified by hand with a pencil as necessary. Now it is done on a computer... same basic skill.

Only this takes time... and it is so much easier to just come here and beg for it.

Or they don't want to spend the money necessary for them to do the professional job they do. Fonts and clip art discs cost money. Some a little and some a lot. If you are in the business you need tools to do the job.

But it is so much cheaper to just come online and beg for it.

This board is a great resource to find sources and a wonderful source of information and inspiration. And that is what it is meant to be.

Hard words... but true??

-dan
 

I wouldn't be near as good at layout and design without this formidable training early on.

What is nedded possibly is an apprentiship program for sign people as they have in England to learn the skills needed. Maybe a two year program to cover the basics and a few more years to earn your masters certificate. Then you can set out on your own knowing you possess the skills nessessary to produce acceptable work.

Cheers
 

So bring on the low buck shops Im ready.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Ryan E Young ]

You could develop a sketch using traditional methods, get a customer's approval & deposit, and schedule their work for delivery a week down the road. Truth is that many customers will not wait that amount of time so that you can have a sense of "personal fulfillment and job satisfaction". They can and will go where they can get a job done quickly and efficiently, and fits within THEIR time perameters. Like it or not, that too is a reality. Industry today functions on a "just in time" delivery schedule. With the introduction of computers as tools into the sign industry, a lot of customers expect you to give them whatever they want, when they want it, and if you're not equipped or prepared to supply their needs, they have lots of choices from those prepared to do so.

I guess our choice is which path to take that will provide you with what you need, to make your living in a way you find satisfying.
 

You can spend literally hours looking for a specific font or piece of clipart, more if you have a slow internet connection. What's the harm of coming here and asking your friends for a point in the right direction? Someone a while back asked about Bible clipart. I had spent a lot of time researching the same thing, and I was able to tell her what to buy and where to buy it.

Sometimes the shoe is on the other foot. It is easier to come here and ask other readers for a quick answer before launching a big search. Isn't sharing knowlege part of what we are here about?

I do agree with you about the people who come here looking for Fiddlesticks Bold Italic and the next post says "Check your e-mail"

But I don't buy the notion that asking any honest question is either lazy or cheap. Vic G
 

This is an area that I have mixed feelings about. Being an old way painter, and a slow learner to boot, I would most likely have been dead in the water had an apprenticeship program been required in this country. I am self taught, trial and error, and looking back, the skills such as they are, were slow in coming. I started in '62, and didn't get a handle on layout until after 1980 when Signcraft hit the market.
Sketching and brush skills came fairly easily, layout was a whole 'nother ball of wax. Even today, I look at what others are doing, and I wonder what I am doing in this field.

As far as the "begging" clip art and/or fonts-- there may be a bit of truth in what you and Dan have to say. On the other hand, I went stale on creativity some years ago, and clip art and software opened up a whole new world for me. Given that, maybe all of us ought to extend a bit of charity to those seeking whatever.
 

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: cheryl nordby ]

Rob Larkham, don't take the non-response to your post on the Portfolio page as a comment on you or hand painting. Maybe you are not part of the attaboy club yet. Some people only respond to certain posters anyways.
 

I agree with your intent that the traditional skills are lacking nowadays, but clipart is clipart and is very useful.

I used to draw a quick scale design for customers right in front of them, sometimes upside down! (to their amazment). Sometimes I could visualize the sign in seconds and sometimes it would take days.

I used to cheat and use Lettraset on acitate and then blow it up to size on an overhead projector, only to hand trace it, then pounce it, then hand paint...I felt bad...then I learned a new way of cheating, same steps as above but this time I would pounce the pattern on to a substrate covered in pre-mask, then cut and roll. I have learned many ways of cheating since.

Then the 4b came out, and now its whatever (make a sign in corel?, c'mon )

Some people are justified in just using vinyl and there is a market for their services, but I'm willing to bet they don't get the same "feeling" that the old time ways can produce!

Late at night...great music on, no phone or human interuptions...paint mixed and pattern pounced...palleting the brush and the first stroke(never do your first stroke on the first letter). The computer just does not give me the same "feeling"

I hand lettered a rig with corogated sides in Nov. on site and it was grand. I hope to do more traditional work in the future and if I get paid more as mentioned above, even better?

It's good to get your brush wet once in a while

Mark
 

The mini-meets that Rob Larkin & friends have been having are also a teriffic way to learn as well. Those who are truely committed will avail themselves of such resources, and make the necessary effort to LEARN. I sometimes wonder if those begging assistance have ever attended a live meet, taken a workshop, or made ANY investment of money or time to learn basic skills.
 

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]

I don't consider myself the next door neighbour Pizza Shop, One Slice, two slices, single topping or the works.
It will be ready in thirty minutes or it's free!

I am will to help train someone in this field as "Experience comes from job working."

But the customer has to know that everything isn't sitting in my shop on his command.

I allow them to know that within an appropriate time frame it will be done.

Even if at the last moment I have to work until 6 oclock in the morning for his 8 oclock appointment.
But in most cases it doesn't get that far out off hand.
And a quick call to say it's going to be a day or two late really doesn't hurt them.
Calling them into the shop and showing them why the delay is, will settle them down.

But the point Timi was saying is about sitting down with fresh talent and showning them that you really have to "Watch Paint Dry!"
There is truly a skill of knowing when you can overlay colour on top of each other without orange peeling the paints.

You can handle other tasks in between the other piece of work and keep the jobs in a flowing motion using nothing but your brain skills and paint.

Take a simple paper banner.
Some simple thought and an ounce of paint will make more money then the ton of vinyl and waste product from machines.

We talk about making money in our business.
Think about teaching a person the fast hand layout with a stick of charcoal and a pint of paint and he'll make you more than you can dream of!
Gives you a chance to give them a raise in life because the profit is there.
 

I have nothing against clipart.

The whole world and the ideas I see are a source of inspiration for me. Very little of what I create can I call truely original. I am constantly gathering ideas and images that I file away for future reference.

When I need an idea or reference and I can't locate it in my own library I set out immediately for my local Chapters store (any excuse to buy another book!). The web is something I love and is a great source of information and images. Very seldom do I find exactly what I am looking for no matter where I look... that would remove all the fun from my job in any case. Labels in the grocery store are wonderful inspiration.

But somehow I find an assortment of references from which I can draw an image. Sometimes I use the old fashioned tracing paper and sometimes my scanner is the tool of choice. Most often it is the good old fashioned pencil and paper.

I just resent (perhaps a bit strong) those who look for the easy/cheap way out as a matter of course.

I have nothing against modern technology or faster ways to do something... but often these ways can hinder good design if the basic skills aren't there.

Creativity happens best (in my humble opinion) when we work out at least some thumbnails with a good old fashioned pencil and paper. Not finished art... that happens so much easier on a computer.

Creativity happens in the brain. Everything else is just a tool.

In 'the old days' beginners were in a hurry to be sign professionals without seeing the need to take the time to practice and learn the skills necessary. I know because I was one of them. I got my education by doing it and my passion for my work drove me to get more skills and develop them.

Now it is exactly the same....only the tools have changed. We want to use a complex/powerful tool (computer) without learning the basics of design and drawing first.

I just wonder... how come you don't see Raymond Chapman, Mike Jackson, Gary Anderson, Bob Parsons, ... (I could list them forever and these names were picked at random from my brain for no other reason than they came to mind first) posting here for clipart? And it is my bet that they all use clip art.

Is it because they are way more talented than us?? Or is it because they took the time to develop their skills?

The folks above (and most others here) use modern tools like computers and plotters.

I take pride in my hand crafted work, but would really miss my computer if you took it away! But I could still do what I do, although not as efficiently perhaps.

Could the same be said for most signcrafters today??

-dan
 

quote:

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Creativity happens in the brain. Everything else is just a tool.

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This is the best quote I've seen on this board in a very long time!

Nettie

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Janette Balogh ]

Don't you know, that in today's world....INSANT GRATIFICATION takes too long?

Being a dinasaur, I did learn the hard ways to do things....and have progressed to a computer....BUT, I do have the necessary skills to use the computer as another tool, to make the old methods work the way that I want them to! I am not limited to published fonts and clipart!!!

If you are new in this biz...I strongly urge you to get to the next meet that you can attend! There you will find others more than willing to teach you how to use your puter and even a brush!
I gar-on-teee that your next sign will be at least 100% better than what you have been doing! Not only that, these meets are great fun! AND you will meet some of the nicest, most fun people around!

Just my very humble opinion!

Sheeeshhh!...now all I gotta do is learn to type!

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Si Allen ]

I think I mentioned it to several people there that in my opinion alot of cas & desktop publishing programs should include these basic fundamentals in the first step of their tutorial.

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: timi NC ]

Speed and effeciency. That is what a customer demands. Most customers walk in with a logo done. They say put it on a sign. I put it on a sign. I try to suggest and fit it around what they want but it never ceases to amaze me. They think that a sign is just words on a board. They forget the rest. Layout and colour are secondary to speed.

I had two customers that came into our shop last month that had the sign blank already up and the logo that they wanted already made. You can only guess what happened from there. The wording doesn't fit on that sign.

Kevin
 

I am printing this out to read all the replies. Without any other opinion said, I whole heartedly agree with you!

Just to state yesterday I continued teaching my employee to hand letter by letting him do 2 paper signs for the first time. He did a pretty good job.

I guess you can say the apprentise program is alive in my shop.

Don has no interest in computers, but learning the old trade fires the boy right up. This does not put down any computer only shop but gives us an advantage over most shops in our area.
 

The downside of looking at the past of signpainter shows that most of this knowledge was zealously guarded. The apprentice could expect the #@%*-end of the stick in order to prove he was worthy of this knowledge. A woman certainly did not qualify and certain forgeiners were thought to create volumes of inferior work.

So now we have a very few knowledgeable craftspeople, most stuggling to keep traditions alive, in a now high tech double-digit growth, profit hungry world. They are not finding the traditional apprentice of the past. There are not that many hungry-to-learn kid that hangs around the shop door. Instead they may find a rare young person looking to learn the craft. More commonly a more mature person seeking to improve on related skills or developing a second career. But there are people who want to learn out there.
So all I can say is: "Don't close the door, Timi."
 

In a competitive world such nonsense exists, but I feel it degrades our society and dulls our senses. It goes far beyound signs, but is found in the synthesized music and artificial foods and modular houses. I don't like the abandonment of human abilities, seeing them replaced by machines and accepted as progress, neither can I change much about it. Frustrating, huh?
 

I've worked for 36 shops - and in some it became up to me to give the test to the newbies that came scratching at our door. Not one of them in all those years had any clue as to how to start the job - let alone how to finish it up or how to make it look good. It bothers the crap out of me to know that those are the people who went out and bought vinyl machines, and ran me out of town.

I once took a test for the county sign shop and it involved 5 signs that had to be done by lunch time, all by hand - 5 people showed up and I was the only one that completed the test. The other 4 had such a mess going on, gold leaf all over their faces, paint all over their hands, I couldn't watch - but I refused the job because it was really just for banging out dull county stuff. One of the duds got the job - that's why government signs look like they do.

Working at Disneyland the past year has paid very well, but everything we get is structured by "graphic designers" (There's a swear word for sign painters!) and my lettering and layout skills have suffered tremendously as a result- -I don't do that anymore, and for the past 35 years I've basically spent all day at it. I was laid off this morning, though, so I'm looking forward to getting the shop put back in order and contacting some old customers.
_______________________________
"Lost to Technology" - what a good way to say it!
________________________________
and I like the saying - "Give a man a fish, etc. - teach him to fish and you will create such a liar that the truth will not be in him." Ha ha
________________________________

Yeah we have calculators, now, for those not in the know - but when they make a mistake they aren't aware of it - say if they hit the wrong key. For instance I bought an item at Home Depot a couple weeks ago and the total was $20. I paid with a $50 bill, but the kid typed in $500. He started to count $480 change but didn't have that much in the till (I'm watching this pathetic show) so he decides to figure it out by himself and gives me $48 instead. Cost me $2 for the item.
This is the same kid whose clone can't put an illustration on a sign no matter how simple unless it's clip art on his disk.
Kids that have grown up looking at digital clocks can't tell time on a round face clock - they have no concept that it reflects on the position of the sun. They won't think if they don't have to.
 

Man........I'm in hog Heaven !!!

Ps..............Gotta nuther stick of ram for this box.......sure do speed up my solitare game.......!!

When I started out pinstriping and lettering........they took all the labels off the paint cans.........cause it was all secret stuff then, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........maybe it still is........
 

This might be of some limited interest to newer folk. warning, i tend to go on a bit.

Before books or CDs of generic art were available, artists would keep files of images they had clipped out of books and magazines. They would refer to the clipped art file when they wanted to draw something, or trace it.

Sign artists have used clipped art files for at least 100 years. My 1902 edition of "Sign Painting" instructs beginners to maintaing a clipping file of pictures and ornaments. Some ornaments are now called "dingbats". Dingbats is a word the fisrt used -in this context - by typographer Herman Zaph to name his now-famous pi-font, Zaph Dingbats. Now people use dingbats to refer to special or unusual characters).

There is nothing new about asking a "sign man" for some clipped art.

The name "Clip-Art" used to be a trade name, by the way, for a company that began in the 50s selling books of cartoons and other printers "cuts" to the graphic arts trade. ("cuts" refers to photo engravings that are ganged onto a large sheet and the individual pictures are then cut out of it).

The biggest difference between clip-art and clipping files is that clip-art is intended to be "generic art" and clipping files are for reference use. it can be used for a variety of purposes. designers use the word to refer to unimaginative illustrations. It is a shortcut.

A clipping file is really a file for inspiration and detail. You want to draw the horse just right, so you study the photo to get the detail right, and make sure your drawing has the right proportions. You might trace a picture, but you're probably tracing selectively to give it your own style.

So, if you want to improve your design skills (see, i DID wander back to the original topic!), ask for reference art, and learn to make your own cartoons and illustrations. Your work will look better for it and you'll be able to offer your customer something that no other sign maker could offer them.
 

quote:

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So, if you want to improve your design skills (see, i DID wander back to the original topic!), ask for reference art, and learn to make your own cartoons and illustrations. Your work will look better for it and you'll be able to offer your customer something that no other sign maker could offer them.

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[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: timi NC ]

But like ya say......It was used for "REFERANCE" and Not just an easy way out for those too lazy to learn their craft !!

I've looked at clip-art........So far haven't seen anything I would ever want to use other than maybe for an idea that I could manipulate and expand on. But then again, I have a hell of a Morgue !!
 

A. I reckon they would be encouraged by the discussions like this one!!!

This fine trade WILL NOT DIE!! because of you people and I will not let it!

RobC
 

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]

I get Timi's point and I wholeheartdly agree with him..you see when I started out .the Electro Pounce was around.we couldn't afford one..we used a Transformer with one side burned out , a nail, a lot of rubber tape, and a Rheostat....worked great.
We had an Opaque Projector,and as CJ said a HUGE MORGUE..But we learned to use the pencil, chalk, charcoal or whatever to make our layouts.....
I taught my Daughter to do all of this.....and now she has her own Shop...(An Art and Custom Frame Business )
But I see an occassional Hand Lettered Sign in her window....that she did for herself......

Tradition is great.......but I personally don't believe there is much hope in getting the younger generation to take up the TRADE as we know it....They are to darn lazy.(Most of them) Granted there is an exception to the rule...

Shep'
 

Ps.......Can anybody here spell "Speedball".....heheheheheh!!!

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: CJ Allan ]

Lets face it we are in the lettering business & whether it comes out of a machine or the tip of a manual tool in your hand the rules haven't changed, just the way we get to the end result.
 

I agree with most everything said here! I am old school, my daddy used to do this for the guvment, he did the uncle sam signs, of course I didn't know it until I was 37-8 years old...I was signwriting for real cash money when I was 14...how's that for bizzare? hehehe!

I still haven't broke down and bought a plotter. I like doing the menu and pool rule signs. If I can make it look right, stay consistant with my letters, and have to insist it's not done with vinyl letters, I take it as a compliment!

It's not that I hate stickie work, just that I am proud of what I can do with my skills!

I think it should be a bare minimum pre-requisite for letterheads to know a speedball manual upside down and backwards, but that's just me and I digress, LOL!

Timi, this is one of the best threads I've seen here in a while! Not only is the information and the nostalgia great, the support for the old ways is inspiring and to top it off, the warm invitations to newbies to this fine trade is really heart warming to see!

Mr. Passion (Rob Larkham),

Thanks! I'd like to see you post all the wednesday nights projects. Maybe I'm one of a few who would love to see it, maybe one of many who are attempting the same. I think holding each other accountable for really teaching it to others when we have the opportunity would be fantastic! Do we live in the only country where sign writing is not taught in fine colleges?...as a real "job?"

Why aren't most of us teaching classes? hehehe!

I think I'll go put some ideas togeher...to get this off the ground!

Thank you everyone who posted and left egoes somewhere else! It's nice to see!

And to follow suit, make it to at least one Letterhead's Meet! Like a Lays potato chip, no one can do just one! There is absolutely no way to describe all the benefits of attending one of these, as there are so many!

Find a way to get there, you will not be disapointed!
 

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: timi NC ]

I personally am grateful for these fine examples....but am wondering if you hand lettering folks consider these sign guys "sellouts" or "traitors"?

I think there is a place for the traditional and the contemporary....and I have to tell you, I am solely into vinyl....but have a deep admiration for guys with hand lettering talents who care to take the time and effort to create something extended straight from the heart....stick with us guys.

Just wanted to add, It's a Big Mac society we live in now...if we don't get our food as soon as we pull up to the drive-in window we start throwing mean stares towards those inside.

Everything is instant gratification. Quicker, more, now! I personally think it would be great to take a trip into town on a horse and buggy...relaxing, time to think, the smell of the outdoors....but difficult or impossible in today's society. It is a bit of a shame.

I sit down and watch old Andy Griffith reruns every night on TV land just to mellow out and smile about the simpler times. I'm not kidding!

No angry hockey fathers beating people to death over a silly hockey practice on Andy's show....good ol' wholesome...nonviolent...sane entertainment. Sorry...I'm rambling on now.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]

If a person is going to survive much less excel in this trade they need at the very least the basic skills need to ply it. Many people once they own the software & equipment do not learn these skills. They expect the software to do it for them. There are & have been solid rules & techniques for layout & design of both clipart and copy. As far as I know they haven't changed in quite some time,yet many do not seek them out or try to learn them.

As for these for these fonts you speak of and the clipart available,..where do they come from in the first place? They were created by individuals who took the time to learn the skills neccessary to produce them. Where will new fonts or clipart for this trade come from if the skills are not learned?
 

For the most part I wholeheartedly agree. You're preaching to the choir here. I am a graphic designer by trade..and know how to design.

No doubt about it...you gotta know design regardless of what sign avenues you take on. I have personally found that the guys who buy equipment on a whim...who don't have any real artistic talent...don't affect me much if at all.

People know talent when they see it...and those are the people I work with. Sure, you're always gonna get someone looking for a "blue-light" special...but hasn't that always been the case?

Quote: <but have a deep admiration for guys with hand lettering talents who care to take the time and effort to create something extended straight from the heart...> No flame here.

So, yes...vinyl or paint...you really need the training and the God given gift and I agree with you on several points...but with a slant that leans towards David's point of view. Good post Timmi...great insights and discussion.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]

The old ways have given me an excellent foundation for the new, I feel that these basics are what is missing today but as has been said, what incentive is there for people to learn them?, do they see the need?

I have a young fellow coming to my shop once a week to learn brush skills, he part times with another sticker shop here. He has seen my work and wants to be able to do what I do.

I wonder if he will stick to it? It's very boring, getting a handle on brush skills when he can already pump out letters on a cutter.

We'll see.

RobC
 

All comments are with grins, winks, and a bit of good natured humor...mixed in with a bit of dopey sarcasm. I am smiling as I write this...so PLEASE don't picture me as being an angry argumentative flamer.

Just because you give a guy a saw doesn't make him a carpenter. Everyone knows how to operate an automobile, but that doesn't mean they have the capability of becoming a winning racecar driver. A little instruction might allow them to hack their way through the task...but it'll never be as good as someone with the inborn talent.

I like basketball...but no matter how much I practice and play...I gotta feeling that I'll never be a Michael Jordon.

And thus, knowing how to operate a vinyl cutter or dip a paintbrush in some paint, armed with some basic principles, doesn't mean that that person is going to produce anything interesting at all.

From the posts I've seen....almost everyone would agree that there is tons of crap design out there by guys with the equipment .... but NO talent.

Talent is everything. The accountant that buys a vinyl cutter doesn't scare me one bit....more power to him....it just means there will be one more "like new", "hardly used" good cutter out there for sale in a couple years for a bargain price.

I'm not disputing the power of apprenticeships of the trade by any means...please don't get me wrong...but artistic talent "way" to does matter. A guy with talent, combined WITH the skills of a master sign guy like Timmi can become a master himself. But a guy with no talent?.....I doubt it.

When I went through college (years ago), there were students that were "taught" design principles, color theory, layout, etc...and after 4 years of instruction, their stuff still looked as bad as a gradeschoolers crayon drawing.

Yes..you can teach a talented guy the trade and he can become a master...but you can't even come close to doing that with someone with no talent.
I feel confident I could learn to use the brush...but that doesn't mean I could ever come close to being the master that you...or someone else probably is. If you're an accomplished freehand "brush" painter....then you've GOT a tremendous amount of inborn talent.

Please...beat me up on this if you feel compelled..but just be gentle...I feel a storm brewing.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]

60 replies and no name-calling or flame-throwing!

I would just like to add this is not a unique situation to the Sign Trade. Photographers for major publications now use Auto-focus/Auto-exposure cameras they can edit/crop/color correct on a laptop and send to the magazine over a modem in a few minutes. Mechanics can't tell you what is wrong with your car without hooking it up to the computer. I could go on but you get the idea.

I think that this trade will be just fine as long as there are places like this for those who really care to educate themselves.
 

Just curious, but how many NEW books (computer program up to date books) are there on good layout?

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any!
I see the old Speedball book mentioned, Atkinson's book, mabe some others, but is there even a NEW book on the subject of good layout and design?

The reason there needs to be continual updates on these layout books is because of changes in advertising trends every few years. For instance, if you were doing retro signs of the 50's for a 1950's style restaurant(example), there is a certain layout "look" that has to be achieved.

Likewise, if your doing a 1920's retro restaurant theme you might use a lot of "BROADWAY" style fonts and solid black panels on a white background with some wavy stipes to fill in the negative space. You wouldn't use that look today because good sign layout reflects up to date trends set by television advertising, magazine and newspaper ads.

Maybe some Letterheads ought to get busy and make some useful up to date books on this subject of layout. A book like this isn't going to come from the "quicky sticky" shops anytime soon.

Just a thought
 

To address Timi's point, a person may ask for something here. Sometimes it's just something that isn't worth the time to create. There may not be any requirement to prove one's design/layout/whatever ability before making their first sign. As business picks up, clients will ask to see an example of work that person has done. If they lack the skills you talk about, the perspective client will be shown a bunch of ugly signs. It will then be up to that customer to determine if their only concern is price or if they actually want a sign that won't make them sick to look at. I am relatively new to the business. I love what I do. I have learned an enormous amount from this bb and the people here and in chat. Some of these people I look at in awe. I wouldn't say that the work I've done is amazing, but I can see a steady improvement in it. I would love to be able to paint. I had some awesome signpainters attempting to teach me the basics at Pat's meet. I think the skills are still being handed down, just not on such a grand scale as they once were.

I've heard some talk about us new people in a bad light. We haven't paid our dues, etc. Granted, I didn't work for an old time sign painter and work my way up from sweeping the floors. Today, our primary tools may be different and the "dues" we pay are different than they were 20-30-40 years ago, but there are still dues to pay. Today, most shops starting out use a lot of vinyl. The new shops have to set them self aside from the quicky-sticky shops. We have to show that we understand layout/colors/design better than the QS shops. Generally, QS shops can only produce signs that involve fonts they've bought somewhere or standard/existing vector art. We have to show people that we are capable of producing signs with modifying the font, recreating their logo (without the disk) or creating artwork from scratch.

And by the way Todd, I have degrees in Accounting and Business Management. I just don't find it necessary to put that in every post I make.
 

Chris...sorry about the accountant crack...I had no idea. And I only throw in my background for reference because a few people will jump to all sorts of conclusions about your worthiness unless you toss in some form of credibility...till they get to know you. Anyway, no personal offense.
 

If I were opening a shop today I wouldn't even think about using paint (except perhaps to do some blends on vinyl) on most signs. I would save that for the high end sandblasted and hand carved stuff.

The world has changed for the most part. Vinyl works. Most businesses trade in their vehicles every 2-3 years and a lot are even leased. Paint isn't even an option in most cases.

And there's few out there who can letter in a way that equals vinyl in price or quality. Price wise it's certainly hard to beat.

There will always be a high end market for things like gold leaf, glue chipping, hand carved signs and wierd stuff like I do.

But there is also a very large market for vinyl.

This said, I believe that what lacks in many shops (especially but not exclusively vinyl) is the design skills required to turn out an outstanding sign. The computer is a wonderful tool that allows us to make fabulous lettering... better than most of us (ESPECIALLY ME) could ever do by hand.

BUT I've never seen a computer that knows how to design. This is a basic skill we need to learn. It takes practice and experience and some would argue talent to truely master.

Unfortunately many own shops and/or make signs without first learning this necessary skill. It was no different when folks did signs 'the old fashioned way' with a brush and a can of paint.

There was no law way back when I started against doing bad signs (thank goodness) and there is no law against it now either. There were some folks mad at me when I first started for selling too cheap. I couldn't understand then why the 'oldtimers' needed to charge so much. How things change when I became an old timer myself. hahahahaha

As 'old guard' letterheads we can pass on the old fashioned design skills to the new generation no matter how they choose to execute the final product. If we can show them the joy of the brush so much the better. It's important!

-dan
 

Punch line first - Tim's original point about beginners taking the time to learn the basics of graphics is well taken.

I started in the sign biz with no graphics training. The first year, I would draw things and just move the pieces and parts around until the sign looked "correct". I had a good natural feel for layout, but it became obvious that there were "rules", and knowing the rules would save time. Tom McIltrot at SignCraft steered me to Mike Stevens book Mastering Layout. It was like being given the combination to the safe.

Now when I look at a bad layout, I usually understand the "why" well enough to coach less experienced employees. Not expert coaching, but capable coaching.

In that context, I really enjoy the layout discussions here because they are invariably educational. It is also the one time where the post never gets personal - it is all about the exchange of ideas. Everyone is very sensitive to the feelings of the person whose art is being discussed.

Where I depart from traditional thinking is the notion that all signwriters must know how to sketch or use a paintbrush. A computer is a very fancy piece of paper with an undo button. Love that undo button. And love my 42" inkjet.

Layout is layout whether accomplished by pen or computer.

Good brush work will continue to look better than computer work because our minds detect and appreciate the tiny asymmetries of hand work. But that is another discussion. Vic G
 

It wasn't Little Johnny... it was the office girl. I remember that that cartoon. the funniest one was "the day a fly landed on Bill's projector". LOL!

Have a great one!