I am practicing some carving in HDU. Finished my first today, and am happy with the results. It ended up being a little deep though, about 3/4". What depth would you recomend for carved letters to be gilded? Thanks alot for any help.
[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: AZBrad ]
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
How thick is the material? The deeper the better. Gives it far more visual drama/impact when the relief is deep.
Posted by AZBrad (Member # 1351) on :
Pierre, I am using 1.5" 15lb. HDU. To me it looked a bit deep, compared to simmilar signs i have seen. Thanks!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
The letters in my "Fairfield" project were 1/2" deep. "The Village of" were also 1/2" deep, but I think they would have been better at 1/4" deep.
Pierre and I may disagree on this one. I'm a fan of shallow carving. More specifically, a small carving angle. Obviously a 3" wide letter stroke is going to be a LOT deeper than a 1/2" wide letter stroke, but neither (in my opinion) needs a V-angle greater than 20 degrees. Case in point, a job we did this summer with strokes approaching 6" wide was carved in 1" thick foam. Nowhere did we carve deeper than 3/4", and up on the wall, those letters look as deep and thick as you'd want them, reflecting that gold leaf like crazy. I find deeply carved letters cast shadows on themselves than can make them hard to read in bright sunlight. Even worse when they're gilded.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Being a newbie carver, I used to think that deeper was better as well, but now that I am carving myself ( we used to sub it out ) I find a not so deep carved letter can reflect gold more evenly like Joe said. Sometimes when it is too deep like in a narrow stroke letter such as Americana, the shadows and highlights contrast too much.
Not to mention it is a bitch to get gold in those really deep narrow letters.
I do find it reall easy to carve too deep, I figure that will get better as my experience increases. As Cam would say " you digging to china boy " hehehehe
Posted by AZBrad (Member # 1351) on :
I also like the shallower look myself. Guess i should have mentioned the sign is only 12"x8". I wasnt trying to carve deep, it just ended up that way. Kept taking off more and more til i was satisfied. Fun stuff, I had a good time with it!
[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: AZBrad ]
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
12"x8"?? Good grief! I always seem to think in "mural" sizes. Anyway..........if you're carving 1/4" to 1/2" deep, why use anything thicker than 1" material?? Back it with 5/8" or 3/4" MDO and save the bucks. Thick is thick. Who cares what the substrata is if you're carving that shallow?
Posted by AZBrad (Member # 1351) on :
Like i said pierre, First attempt! Hate to carve into anything bigger til i know what i am doing.
Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Email me if I can help in any way.
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
I spoke with Paul White a few years back on the same subject. He said that the deeper carved letters let in less light and the shallow letters let in more light. I made up a sample board with three diffrent depths carved with the same letter and then guilded them. The color diffrence of the three is amazing. The deepest one had almost a copper color, whereas the shallow one had the brilliant gold color we all love. The question that now arises, is the dreaded "flash" of guilded letters, whether from the sun or from the lighting. I believe that a carved + guilded sign that has a south orientation should have a deeper carved letter to prevent "flash" and that the north side should have a shallow carved letter to let in more light to brighten it. Thats me, over anaylizing again! Just like to add to the confusion. Makin Chips and Havin Fun! Joe Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
This is exTREMEly subjective. There are NO hard fast rules for depth, and those of you who may be long time carvers know this. Go to www.stmariegraphics.com/carvings3.html Scroll to the bottom to the Village Commons carving. 4" thick Precision Board, lettering carved 2" deep for the large copy, 1" deep for the small copy. Darkness? Not enough light? THAT, my friend, depends on any and all other colors involved. There are NO absolutes in carving.
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
REALAX Piere, Did you see any absolutes in my post? If you did, I missed it. I also didn"t mention anything about absolute depth. I absolutly agree that it is realitive to many things, including size. I'm only suggesting that we DO look at the variables, and that by considering the facts, we can, in each diffrent situation, make informed decisions to produce a product that will not only be outstanding but will stand out. Sorry if I misrepresented myself in my last post, Ijust wanted to discuss one variable that is not frequently discussed. PEACE! Makin Chips and Havin Fun! Joe Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
RelAX?!? What's reLAX!?! I'm relaxed! I'm ALways relaxed! heh Didn't intend my own post to come across as hostile at all. Just my typing technique or lack thereof. I don't really know how any of us can discuss all of the aspects of carving anyway. If there was ever an artform requiring complete hand-on instruction.....carving is the one.
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
Piere, Thank You! Now I can RELAX! too........ah. I'm gonna think about what you just said, and i'll try to post tonight with my thoughts......Be Coooooooool! Joe Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
A very subjective set of opinions, all valid for their own reasons. One thing I find is much more important than carving technique is layout and letter kerning. A carved sign is more readable with simple typefaces and plenty of spacing - if possible, I'll increase spacing between letters, as I think they tend to run together visually when they are too tight. I think most of us tend to lay out carved signs as we would a painted or vinyl sign, and we ought to be taking these factors into consideration; it's not just a different technique, but a whole different look we are trying to achieve - I've seen plenty of carved signs that are terrific examples of skilled, precision carving, but don't work very well as signs. Also when gilding carved letters I don't look for a super bright gild - I'd rather gild on size that's a bit softer, and get a velvety, rather than a bright flashy burnish.
And BTW, I tend to carve letters fairly shallow.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
In most cases! Never carve over 1/3 the thickness off the material.
A Tad over but only slightly.
The more the V carve (Side to Side angle The better the gold will shine!
But it still depends on your Lettering style that your using..
Most stroke sizes will allow a 3rd. V cutting.
Judgement on most of this will come with practice.
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
To Cam, I never thought about adding spacing. That makes a lot of sense. I'll pay more attention to it on future jobs and when as I drive past old jobs to critique them. Thanks.
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
WEll,,,,, I wrote a long one last night and got hung up on, so I gave up! Piere, Debbie set me an email and said that she was glad that we are RELAXED!!!!(since we both carry knives). hahahaha! I think that we can teach the craft of carving (or process) and the art part is the result of our efforts. Carving is no diffrent an ART than any other of the ARTS that are used in the industry. I think we first learn the craft (process) and then by mastering it, someone may call it ART. I think the posts in this topic are a great example...everyone is talking about the design of the structure of an incised letter and its results under certain conditions. No ART here. No CRAFT either. Process! What do you think? Should this be a NEW topic on the Bull Board? Gotta Go! Happy Holidays everyone! Makin Chips and Havin Fun! Joe Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Would make a good topic, Joe. I'd help you. AND........I depend heavily on my ability as an illustrator to accomplish many of our carvings, so, for us at least, artwork is very important.
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
I think you just made my point! We all come with our own skills and talents. You come with a strong art talent! You and the others like you, produce work in two dimensions to give the illusion of three dimensions. When you begin relief carving, you have to work now with three dimensions. But, ooooooops, you don't get the whole third! so, even though you you are working in 3 dimensions, you still need to use the same illusionary techniques that you use in 2. I'll bet that when you started carving, you knew what the piece should look like and then you just had to figure out how to make the chips! That's the CRAFT part! Thats the part that I think can be taught. Knowing how to carve will not make you an artist, but can you really find out if you are an artist (in 3d) if you don"t learn to carve? My greatest joy in teaching is helping folks with a very strong art background to experience "3D". Yes, lets start a new topic and see what the rest of the gang thinks. I'm super busy right now so I'll be on and off the board...........hay! Why not set a meeting in the chat room for some time after Xmas? Could be fun!!! Makin Chips and Havin Fun! Happy Holidays! Joe Posted by pierre (Member # 1462) on :
Cool, Joe. I'll have my son show me how to get in.
Posted by Debbie Delzell (Member # 1965) on :
If I know the date and time on Chat I will show up for the carving talk. I think I can learn a lot from you two. Joe and Pierre, I like both of your carving styles. Joe, I hope to see you on Mars with enough practice I will be able to soak everything in. Now I do not know which I want to do more. Paint or carve on Mars. Relax Jill, I will work on a wall because I like to paint. Debbie
Posted by AZBrad (Member # 1351) on :
Thanks for your honest replies. Its obviously comes down to taste and carving experience. I will try another and decide for myself.
