The Letterville BullBoard: "Dibond "& Bubbles

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Posted by John Martin Robson (Member # 1686) on :

Why would I be getting bubbles?

(I’m sure this question has been asked a 1000 times or more)

I’m applying premium cast vinyl to “Dibond” panels
I have noticed this in the past especially with very smooth painted metal surfaces………….they seem very susceptible to bubbles………I laid it dry……I remove the plastic overlay film from one panel a day before applying vinyl. Read somewhere you should do this. On one exact same panel I just laid the vinyl right after removing the protective film & light wipe down……..used a new squeeegee too………..I got the same result with both panels.

Seems the smoother the surface the harder it is to avoid bubbles. Why would this be? What’s a good solution……I’m laying the vinyl the same as I would onto painted MDO or Coroplast?

My client will probably ask me “what’s with the bubbles” my only come back is “ you won’t notice them at 20ft in the air.

Anyone?

Posted by Brian Cornwell (Member # 2509) on :

quote:
I remove the plastic overlay film from one panel a day before applying vinyl. Read somewhere you should do this.

Suggest you do not do "this".

Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :

I'm sure Roger will love this.... I have noticed that if you flood your application fluid much heavier before applying the vinyl, the bubbles will do one of two things. They will either chase out with the fluid totally or they will trap up in larger areas where you can puncture and drain air and fluid. This method does not work well over rivets. Actually getting the vinyl to its intended home very quickly before the fluid settles and puddles helps also. In this method you are floating the vinyl until squeegeeing....Bronzeo

Posted by Jim Lue (Member # 2521) on :

I found that on smooth services likes trucks or dibold It is importent not to let the vinyl roll off the transfer but rather keep the vinyl flat and roll the backing up off the vinyl, when the vinyl rolls I believe it stretches just enough to cause the bubbles. This solved the problem I had with trucks. I didn't seem to haves this problem on other services such as MDO

Posted by John Martin Robson (Member # 1686) on :

Brian

You didn’t substantiate your comments. I removed the film on one Dibond panel the day prior to vinyl application and on another I did not. The result was the same……..bubbles. Fail to see how this (removing film or not )has any bearing. Still curious to know why you advise me not to remove the film a day prior to vinyl application. Perhaps there is some other reason?

bronzeo

Appreciate your comments………I don’t like laying material wet, and why do it if the results as you say is going to be one of two things (seems like a coin toss solution using a lot of solution)…….very few instances where I think wet application is necessary. A couple of months ago I did a truck, similar surface, different vinyl (automotive) application vertical, which I think is more difficult…….but very good results.

The other thing is:….. how do you lay a 24” x 96” piece of masked vinyl on a horizontal surface using the wet method (assuming one only has two hands) without getting the back liner wet……..cause you certainly don’t want to get the liner wet.

Jim

I’m not sure what you mean by all this” sometimes this stuff can be difficult to explain in words……………”let the vinyl roll off the transfer (do you mean liner rather than transfer) but rather keep the vinyl flat and roll the backing up off the vinyl, when the vinyl rolls I believe it stretches just enough to cause the bubbles.

This is what I’m doing: laying a 24” x 96” piece of masked vinyl onto a Dibond panel ( that’s a pre-finished aluminium PVC core panel). I apply it in one piece. First I hinge it, then I slowly pull the liner out squeegeeing as I go along, keeping the piece slightly taunt as I go……….I us this method with pretty much all applications.

I think I’m just going to experiment a little with scraps …….try different techniques

Thanks Folks

Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :

Perhaps I wasn't clear with my suggestions. In both cases the bubbles were totally gone. One easily, and the other with fair ease, since the fluid/air combo gathers in one spot for one pinhole. I use a sharp scalpel. Works as well on a vertical surface, if you don't mess around. I always fight dry applications on super smooth surfaces so I don't even try anymore. Bronzeo

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: bronzeo ]

Posted by John Martin Robson (Member # 1686) on :

bronzeo

You’re right……….I tried the heavy fluid application with a piece (unmasked)……..worked well!
Now ………how do you apply fluid with masked vinyl, especially, with big pieces?. That liner can’t get wet. So you remover the entire liner after the piece is hinged?………if it’s a big piece, it has very little rigidity now, tends to fold in on itself and stick together……….maybe work in small pieces?, but maybe I don’t want to slice up my graphics……….The wet method is better, but definitely a slower method. Need to consider that when pricing such a job….. right?…………..Am I caughting on? or just going on ?

Thanks for your time & help

Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :

Yeah it's a pain in the a$$ huh? Here's what I do....Use alot of RapidTac..Squeegie the heck out of it..then spray the transfer tape with RapidTac too....then right away start peeling the wet transfer tape off. Then work any bubbles out with your fingers.

Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :

Here's what I did with a 24"x10' section. I Layed it out and hinged top and bottom in the center, as well as one whole end taped in place. I lifted back 5 feet and layed it back on the fixed end, and started removing the backer one to two feet at a time from the center (. Cut that section of backer out and lay all over a heavy flood of the area that is unbacked. Lay over again and repeat until that side is finished (only about 3 steps). Repeat on other end. This works fairly well on tiling also. You can only do this method laying flat. Bronzeo

[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: bronzeo ]

Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :

Hi John,
I like dry application too, regardless of surface smoothness, graphic size or whether the panel is vertical or horizontal...BUT...With a piece of vinyl 2'x8', something has to give. You've either GOT to have a helper (so you can hold the entire graphic in place off-the-surface while you squeege), GOT to slice it up into smaller one-man sized chunks, or you've GOT to apply it wet. All of these will, however, usually negate using the hinged method.

The reason I say that is: I almost never have a helper. I can't effectively manage anything over 3' wide without a helper, so I cut it up into narrower widths. If it can't be cut (as in stripes) and I can't get help, I HAVE to wet it. But I almost never hinge. I'm tempted to say never, but I can recall at least once in my career I did, and it worked ok, just not my cup of tea. (Still one time out of thousands is pretty close to never). I have not experienced smoothness of the substrate making any difference in formation of bubbles. Granted, premium, cast vinyl is a lot more demanding than calendared. It's a challenge for anyone to apply dry and be completely bubble free. I suspect it's got more to do with your hinging preference, your choice of squeege or possibly your squeege technique.

Don't worry too much either way - all air bubbles will outgas and completely disappear in a relatively short period of time. (couple weeks).

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Joe Rees ]

Posted by Bill Cosharek (Member # 1274) on :

John,

Jack's method works really well as I use it all the time. I don't know why you need the transfer tape though. Seems like waste of materials. Just flood back of vinyl with plenty of fluid & squeegee down. Work as rapidly as possible. If your squeegee is smooth you shouldn't damage surface. As for telling the customer anything about the bubbles, with premium vinyl they'll all be gone in a few days. You can poke them to release some moisture & that may help, but in day or two they all will disappear anyhow.

If you have any work already done, check it to see if bubbles are still there. If you used premium they're probably gone.

But before you squeegee vinyl spray some fluid on top side also. This will help prevent scratches.

When using hinge method, do one side , retape side done & immediately work on side which still has backing. If done fast enough, you shouldn't have any problems with soaked backing. Spraying works best with applicator which puts out a mist.

To answer how to keep large areas from overlapping & adhering to itself, keep it wet until application. Respray it as often as needed. This may be a waste of application fluid but what would you rather waste?

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Bill Cosharek ]

Posted by John Martin Robson (Member # 1686) on :

Thank you kindly folks for your time & effort.

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

John Martin, try "hinging from top" Just a tip I have found to work well when the vinyl is large and your the only helper.
Tape graphic across top edge, attach to substrate firmly,check for alignment, peel liner from top down(only after cleaning and spraying very wet with Rapid Tac or Tac II)

Roger

Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :

quote:
how do you apply fluid with masked vinyl, especially, with big pieces?

Hi John,
We regularly lay very large pieces of masked vinyl, mostly translucent, to awning material. Today we laid a four by ninety foot piece of red onto a white panel. Tomorrow we will lay a 4'x100', which will be the longest we have ever done.
These very large pieces cannot be laid dry. We use dish soap and water, which gives us a long open time for squeegeeing out bubbles.
A center hinge is applied to the graphic, and half of it is then pulled back over itself so that the backing liner can be peeled and cut away. Then both vinyl and substrate are flooded with a garden sprayer. Two people then 'roll' the graphic onto the awning using a long cardboard tube, walking along on either side of our 80 foot work tables. One person makes sure that the graphic stays lined up as two others use rollers to burnish it down, working from opposite sides of the table. Two more follow behind them with squeegees and firmer pressure. Five people can perform large overlays like this rapidly and virtually bubble-free.

Obviously, pieces this large cannot be done by one person. But I have been able to successfully lay 4'x10' graphics by myself using the same method, that is, using a center hinge and removing half the liner at a time. I have even done pieces this big on vertical facias without help, though it is slow and wind can be a problem. Using a scissor-lift or some other scaffolding makes a big difference.

Incidentally, masking a 4'x90' piece of vinyl is quite a trick in itself. It usually calls for four sets of hands and has to be seen to be appreciated.

Brad in Kansas

Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :

Hiya John,
There's may be 3 reasons why you may be getting bubbles. The first is your
squeegee. Are there any nicks or grooves in the blade? If not, the second problem
may be your transfer tape. After the tape is applied to the vinyl, are there any
bubbles? If there are, these bubbles will transfer with the vinyl onto the substrate.
The third is application technique and the most likely culprit. Very smooth surfaces
like aluminum and acrylic are very unforgiving. When vinyl sticks (especially Gerber
225 series) to the smooth surface it's stuck for good. The trick is to not let the vinyl
touch the substrate before you squeegee it into place. Or more specifically, only use
the squeegee to make the vinyl contact the substrate Other substrates like MDO
and coroplast do not have the smooth surface and allow air to escape.
Havin' fun,
Checkers

Posted by John Martin Robson (Member # 1686) on :

Just a follow up folks……….”went the wet way” with the remainder of these panels. Very pleased with the results. I never really knew how to do the wet application, but I figured it out, it all came together.

Thanks Folks

I used to be a hard line dry man, but I’ve shifted ……..I’m a moderate wet man now. Perhaps I always was a wet man, trapped in the body of dry man……..never-the-less I’m please with the results. Got to admit it’s bit more time consuming, but the results are well worth it…………..besides I really enjoy the smell of Rapid Tac and a little nip before bed is most enjoyable………..it is ok to drink ….right?……. Roger?

[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: John Martin Robson ]

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

I think you were alwasy a "wet man" too !

Its really a sign of inteligence to know when to switch.

Roger

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