What originally got me thinking about this was Old Paints topic about "Gerber/Roland print price".
I don't recall who originally said it, but "charge as much as you can while keeping a straight face". Seriously though, as the market becomes flooded with all these different types of printers, the available production hours on these machines keeps increasing. The raw prints weather they're ink jet, thermal or otherwise are becoming a commodity just like your basic vinyl signs. Soon enough, digital prints will also be sold by the pound. I believe that it's the skills that you have and the quality of goods and services that you offer will make the difference in your bottom line. Not how much you're going to save on a roll of vinyl or a sheet of plywood. Maybe I'm wrong. I would like to hear input from others on this. I feel it's something we as an industry need to address. Wouldn't it make more (dollars and) sense to get more use out of the machines that are already out there rather than me going out and spending $500 a month or more on a machine that will basically sit idle 16 hours a day or more?
Havin' fun, Checkers
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Hi Brian, If I understand, you're saying lets not flood the market with more and more machines. I believe that point is valid if there were only two types of digtal print users - those that already have units and want to keep them running, and those that use outside sources and are happy with the service they've been getting.
I find myself in a third place where I have neither a machine, nor a reliable source I'm comfortable with. Luckily, as a carved shop, I'm also positioned in my market where I get VERY few requests for digital. The few shops selling in my area are not very creative designers though, so it's kind of strange to realize that if I wanted to, I could get in that market and be a contender. But you're right, if I did that, I'd be up against a "By the Pound" mantality. I think I'll stick with what I'm known for.
Interesting - I DO see a correlation in the proliferation of automated routers. That strikes a lot closer to home for me. And I find myself SERIOUSLY considering purchasing one for the same reason I would consider digital - There are no ready sources that have given me decent, reliable results in the past. Since dimensional signs (and preserving their value) are my mainstay, I consider routers a parallel issue. I'll follow the responses you get to this thread and compare them to my situation.
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Of course it always will be your design skills that stand out the most no matter what type of sign you make. However I am not real thrilled about the idea of digital becoming the main way of making a sign. I just don't think a printed sign looks very good. But that's just my opinion. I like the way digital is used in a portion of detailed signs....but I am just having a hard time liking the way digital even looks. I know this is the way sign making is headed......sigh.....I guess I just like the old fashioned ways best. To me digital is just pushing a few buttons...and wha la.....there is your instant sign. Kinko and every other printer will completely take over signmaking to a degree of instant gratification type sign mentallity. Thus the reason I am taking a carving class...I like creating with my hands in a more creative way besides just prinitng something out. I don't mean to make anyone mad by my thoughts. I realize it is coming to this degree of signmaking very quickly. But hopefully the signs made with the artists heart and soul will never be completely lost.....
[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: cheryl nordby ]
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
As a recent buyer of a Gerber Edge system I have been somewhat surprised by the nature of the digital market. By the pound is an apt description with $15 to $20 a running foot for Edge prints (wholesale or retail). Where did this come from? There are too many variables in production and design time. I make more money when I sell cut vinyl graphics, so what gives with this? I think many are desperate to keep their machines running, exactly the attitude that kept me from purchasing for many years. Signs "by the pound" is well in force in the regular vinyl graphics around here also. No sense trying to compete with that to see who will drive his profits and business into the ground first.
Posted by Brian Cornwell (Member # 2509) on :
Cheryl . . . you've said it as well as any craftsperson could . . . and I'm in agreement 100%
There's a place for both as long as one doesn't step on the other in it's process
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
David,
Iam in agreement with you! $20 per foot for digital prints?
On what? using what foils? How much design time? are they contour cut?
SO someone will sell 40 small decals with 8 spot colors. 2 of them are medal foils on reflective for 20 bucks?
Yup that ought pay for that edge Reeeeeeeeaaaaal fast.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Thanks for the replies people. Please don't let this become a bashing of lowballers. Another reason for starting this discussion is because of a conversation I had with someone with a grand format printer facing a worse situation. His clients realised that these machines sat idle more often than not. So the clients decided to turn the tables and tried to tell him what they would pay for his finished product. While he didn't completely give in, he was forced to reduce his prices to a certain extent. I would hate to see this situation continue in the already battered and bruised sign industry. By no means am I trying to discourage anyone from purchasing one of these machines. I feel that if you have the market that will support the purchase of a digital printer, go right ahead. However, don't sell the farm to get one hoping that it will bring you new found business. I believe that this should apply to the purchase of any equipment, including routers. I still see a want & need for quality hand crafted products. However, with society still being in the "hurry up, I want it now mentality" automation and effieiency are the rule. There are exceptions but they are very few. I was hoping that if anything good came out of recent events, people would slow down a little and learn to appreciate that quality of life is more important than quantity. A lot of people, uneducated sign makers included, don't realize the advertising importance of a good sign. Some of us say "I can't charge that here". Compare signs to the ads in your local phone book. Most phone books are pretty thick and they charge a heck of a lot more when you compare the value of the 2. Enough ranting for now, I'm sorta getting off topic myself. Havin' fun, Checkers
Anyway, I've ranted enough for now.
Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
We are all bound by the whims of the public. I belive this is a fad, just because it is "the newest thing on the market" looks kwel and I gotta have one to keep up with the Jones' Once again the technology of the machine,far outways the durability of the materials it uses. Vinyl is NOT final! Inks are NOT paint! Foils are NOT either one! Personaly,I try to educate my customer to these facts. If the customer in question wants what I DO NOT do He has to go elsewhere. It is just a matter of time,that they come back. I can and do wait until then. After all....I have the rest of my LIFE!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I think that computer design work is a valid craft. So is vinyl application, but if I ever get an employee, weeding & applying vinyl is the first task I will delegate. For the most part I won't miss it. Then cutting substrates, sanding & coating out boards along with other various prep work would be the next responsibilities I could farm out.
My two favorite parts of this business are sign design & customer service. I think the integration of both occurs when consulting with a client to determine their design needs along with promoting the advertising value of the finished product.
I think with good sales skills (or people) any of us could charge more for the same service we already provide. Whatever level of design skill we have, it will sell for more if marketed with it's advertising value factored into the design as well as the salesmenship.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
You're right Doug. Salemanship has a lot to do with getting better prices for our work. The more credible we become in the eyes of the clients, the more we can charge.
