My thought last week was...make my own alumilite so I could use the burgundy color .o40 guage over exterior plywood on a double sided sign. I didn't want the drying time wait or the maroon background risk. I sold the customer on alumilite because of the location of the sign. It's against the highway and low, snowplows throw anti-skid and as soon as the surface of MDO is blasted with that it starts deteriorating. So after no luck with my laminating experiments (and afraid to experiment on a customer) I give up and will paint, wait and risk it with 1-shot unless someone can come up with a tried and tested burgundy color mix or laminating method. I can't use automotives....not set up for it. Just read the "anything other than 1-shot post" & I still feel like I'm guessing using any maroon. HELP??
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ok..you ever spray paint a car? this is how you want to treat that sheet of alminum. go to NAPA get a qt of ACRYLIC ENAMEL, pint of hardner, gal of 8832 reducer. get them to mix you a maroon paint you can pick from car paint book. get one with no metalic in it....mix paint and reduce in an an empty can, add only small amoutn of hardner to spray gun cup. shoot the alum(REQUIRES A GOOD CHARCOAL CANISTER FACE MASK. and this will last as long a br paint does!
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Ronan makes a Carmine that dries overnite no problem...It's better looking than maroon (redder and richer)
If you wish to use One Shot stay clear of their maroon (takes 3 days to dry) instead mix Bright red and Brilliant or Reflex blue...it will dry overnite...Scuff the surface well with 400 grit and add hardner, don't thin it... roller coat...dress it till bubbles quit.
You'll be happy with the results!
"werks fer me, it'll werk fer you!
Posted by Robin (Member # 1710) on :
Ok Monte, More questions.....I assume I'll have to double coat(?) so do I add the hardner to both coats? And the Carmine thing is great cuz I waited a week for Maroon once (one coat)...even contacted 1-shot over that! I can roll the bubbles out no problem. Thanks Again
Posted by Ian Wilson (Member # 177) on :
aluminium powdwer coated maroon great stuff lasts really well no dramas also can be polished if need be
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
the spray paint thing....ive done this and was letterin on it an hour later!!!!
Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
Robin, The best trick that I have learned about rolling paint, I learned here on the board. Very simple, but a little hard to describe..... Take a roller with plastic end caps on it. In the end that connects the handle screw a longer sheetrock screw in the plastic cap (off center). Screw it in until it clears the handle. Roll your full coat out quickly and evenly. Then, take a screwdriver and back the screw out until it catches on the handle and "locks" the roller. Drag this on the wet paint to kill the bubbles and leave a beautiful level finish. It takes about 6 drags to quickly level a 4x8. Best results that I have hed with rolling ever. I use a foam roller cover....... Yes, on the hardener on both coats. I only use about 5 percent.
Posted by Mark Neurohr (Member # 2470) on :
Robin' You've got a lot of alternitives posted for your sign. If you decide that you would benifit from an automotive Basecoat/Clearcoat system, gimme a call or e-mail. We can have your paint custom mixed to your specs and shoot it with "Supercharger". This stuff dries to touch in like 20 minutes and is ROCK hard!! I'm just down the road here in Kittanning.
I'd be glad to help out! Mark
Posted by David Fisher (Member # 107) on :
Jack, I'm curious, I think I'm with you on the technique you describe above. I do a similar process most times when I'm rolling except I lay it off with a soft bristle 4" brush. Doesn't the "screwed up tight roller" drag too heavily on the paint and leave tracks? If there is a way to get a similar result to laying it off with a brush I'd really like to try it, at least that'd one less brush that'd need cleaning. David
Posted by Robin (Member # 1710) on :
Not set up for automotive paint was girl talk for not set up to spray that large of an area (only a little air-brushing occassionally). I can roll the finish to look like glass...thanks bronzeo, but the hardener thing is what I need to know will work.....and hopefully make it last longer. I've switched to latex on mdo thinking I'd never have to deal with maroon 1-shot backgrounds again. But....think I'll e-mail the fella from 1-shot today. I just can't believe there aren't more colors of alumilite to choose from when there are soooooo many colors of painted aluminum. And those don't chalk or fade in 2 years!
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
Robin,
Take Mark up on his offer!
Suelynn
Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :
David, It works great for me on oil based paints if you do it fairly quickly. The pull off with a roller needs to be done slow and steady, but is rather easy. When you start and hit the end of the panel you will have a drip on the edge that a cloth or small brush will pick up. I have never got this good of results with a follow up brush. It does leave a mild track, but much better than the brushes. Robin, I like the latex for lastivity, but on that particular color, I got a worse fade problem, and also could not get the richness of color in maroon that I think you will want. I looked good wet, but dried kind of pathetic. Maybe a good UV clear rolled over it would bring some life to it and also make the vinyl hold better. I can't live with factory colors. Even the oneshot maroon sucks. Most suck pretty bad. White and Black, I even work over sometimes. The color choices of alumalite and like products are so generic, that they look like they used a wonderbread wrapper for a color chart. I would sometimes choose a color thats it the ballpark for a basecoat, so that one coat of my mix will cover well.
Posted by Robin (Member # 1710) on :
Dave, My rolling method is different than Jacks....just the opposite. I choose the most free rolling handles, use a foam roller, roll it on then gently, quickly & with the lightest touch go right back over the whole 4 by 8 panel....a barely there touch with a free spinning roller. Must admit I take some time choosing the handles at walmart!But whatever works for ya is the bottom line. I've been using val-spar latex's for the rich colors. Even get colors like brilliant blue mixed up ahead to have around to make rich hunters, deep chocolates....it still takes lots of coats but it beats waiting for oil to dry. Mixing clear tints(red devil makes a clear exterior waterbased) & sponging over the background or quickly ragging it off of a whole 4 by 8 with garbage bags gives a quick rich texture background in 2 coats with out the wait of trying to make a solid color. My last burgundy latex was deep rich and looked like leather for an office supply store....But I can't do that on aluminum! I try to use 1-shot for outlines & fades only. And this is a CHEEP sign so thanks Mark but I rather try the hardner & roll it.
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
Hay Robin,
Your last post indicated on aluminum...scuff it a bit so the paint will have sompn to hang on to. (gentle circular motion with angel hair or real fine grit sandpaper)
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Robin...If you do it right thee shouldn't be any "second" coat...least wise there never is around my shop.
You probably have it done by now...how'd it turn out?
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I also use Robin's method, rolling over the panel as lightly as you can. I've found that rolling out the roller on a glossy magazine first to get rid of the excess paint works even better. Extra paint on the roller is what lifts some of the paint off the board and when it snaps back it leaves a bubble, so the drier the roller is, the better.
Another tip I got from a great young signpainter from Dixon IL is to wait a few minutes before rolling it out to let some of the solvents come to the top. Hardner seems to help the paint smooth out too.
I have had second coat adhesion problems with hardner in both coats. I talked to Kevin at One Shot and he said the hardner makes the first coat dry so hard and smooth that it's too slick for the second coat to grab on tightly. Either skip the hardner in the first coat or scuff the first coat if you use hardner in both. When I had the problem, I maxed out the hardner at 10%. Maybe at 5% as in Bronzeo's method there is enough grip.
By the way, I've never needed to double coat Alumalite, just MDO.
[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Dave Sherby ]
Posted by Robin (Member # 1710) on :
Done yet ha....I plan on using white alumilite & I'm ordering it in today. I get once a week deliveries & it's buck season this mon. & tues so everything around here shuts down! I am so happy to hear you don't have to double coat aluminum. I've lettered enough alum. but never backgrounded it. I actually tape 400 grit sandpaper to the alum. so I remember to scuff it first... I'm moving from attention defficit disorder to alzimers as I get older. AND I was really wondering about the hardner in 2 coats cuz I heard the second coat can attact the 1st...so thanks Dave. I wrote one shot yesterday asking about that and haven't heard back. One of the only reasons I still feel like double coating is because it's burgundy...the red,blue mix(now)..and the location...so close to the road. Chips & stuff. It's different from a sign that going UP. Thanks Robin
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
Hey again Robin,
Just wanted to add a tip that was passed on to me from an experienced sign buddy. He told me after you scuff the surface of a painted aluminum product, give it a quick wipe with acetone (use sparingly) This really helps cut the gloss and bites into to factory finish, leaving a good, clean surface for the new coat to go on.
I've tried it and it works for me. Anyone else use this method?
Sue
Posted by Robin (Member # 1710) on :
Ever mix 1-shot hardner with RONAN & did it work ok. My su
Oh waaaaaaa.... My supplier no longers carries 1-shot bulletin but they do have the hardner. Hmmmmm can I add 5% to Ronan since that's all they plan on carrying (carmine). They will still carry the 1-shot lettering. It's been soooo long since I backgrounded with enamel but I still have plenty of qt.s of 1-shot bulletin's in green & blues....figures.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Hi, All,
Just to add to the confusion---- Never had any real trouble with 1-shots maroon on the fading issue-- but-- it's a 2-coater going in, background or lettering. For backgrounds, straight from the can, no hardener or reducer. Roll with foam rollers, and do the nail in the roller cage bit, or, use a dry wide foam brush to kill the bubbles. With the nail for brake thing, there is a certain amount of paint lift at the start of the pull. Haven't figured out how to get around that one, yet, but the second coat takes care of the problem.
Most of the colors seem to have their own durability and fade characteristics, even in any one particular brand. I've used a lot of Ronan bulletin in years past, and never liked it. Bad for fade, but it was the availability from a fella that used to come by every month, and I got whatever I needed right off the truck. Could never make their lettering enamel work, no matter what I did to it.
Lemon yellow-- poor covering in lettering but bulletproof in background use. Doesn't fade and seems to last forever. This is 1-shot brand now. Dark blue tends to fade, brilliant blue fades a lot less. Greens tend to hold up well. Reds are variable, but a second or even a third coat of background color and the fade resistance and durability goes way up.
I did a sign about eight or nine years ago for the local fire department, bright red background, imitation gold for the lettering, black outlines, and even now it still looks pretty darn good. This thing faces West, so there is a lot of sun exposure.
Best advice I got from an old-timer when I first started out-- "put the paint on like it doesn't cost anything." Not the one thick coat versus two thin ones, just don't skimp on it.
My .02, FWIW.
Posted by TimJohnson (Member # 2080) on :
I've read most of the replies to your question and all are good about the top coat of paint. But as someone who paints aluminum trailers for my nine to five job the best advice I can give you is no matter what top coat you apply aluminum must be etched and veriprimed for any paint to hold. These products can be found at an automotive paint store. Paint will stick to alumunum if the surface is not etched and primed. I hope this helps.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Tim ...the material he's using is pre-coated so no need to prime (just scuff) on the secondd coat ...I'd avoid it ...your just asking for wrinkles or an "alligator skin" finish. Jusst one good coat will suffice.
Please report back and let us know how it all went...ok?
Posted by Robin (Member # 1710) on :
The material SHE'S using is pre-coated...right. I plan on scuffing & wipeing it down with Rapid prep but all I could get was Ronan carmine. Have to find a new supplier for 1-shot bulletin. Still wonder if I can add 5% hardner to Ronan? And my mentor 20 years ago preached double-coat. Although I assume I could get away with one. I'll up-date.....may call Ronan about the hardner. I stopped using any 1-shot or oil based a year ago when the maroon didn't dry in a week....bad batch. Swore I'd stick with latexes with great results....then this lady wants Burgundy alumilite.... another learning experience.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Quote from Kevin at One Shot: "Bulletin colors are primarily made for billboards. Short term use! For longer lasting signs use lettering enamel for backgrounds."
From an article in a trade magazine written by Super Frog: For 10 year MDO signs, use lettering enamel not bulletin color.
One Shot Hardner will work in Ronan. Hardners are similar between brands, some are "hotter" than others but they will work in various oil based paints. One Shot does not make their hardner and according to Kevin it is one of the milder isocyanates, BUT, use caution. Iso's are dangerous if not used properly. I will not open a can without wearing nitrile gloves and a respirator approved for iso's. (black and purple cartridge)
If you are just getting into using hardner, I would call One Shot and talk to Kevin Ledbetter. You don't want to become sensitive to iso's. It won't kill you (assuming you don't drink it or shower with it) but you'll never be able to get anywhere near it ever again once you become sensitive to it. The most dangerous time is when you open the can and mix it into the paint and of course spraying it is another whole new ballgame. But once it's mixed into the paint, and you are not spraying, risks drop dramatically with proper handling.
Posted by Bill Cosharek (Member # 1274) on :
Speaking of Superfrog,
Has anyone tried the method described in the Laminators Inc. booklet titled "Outdoor Signs Made Easy - Resource Guide" ?
Inside is a formula for mixing lettering enamels with frog juice at an 18:1 ratio. (18=le & 1=fj) It actually says that 9oz of le & 1/2oz fj should cover a 4x8 with one coat. Specific instructions are included. Their phone # is: 1-800-523-2347 & website: www.signboards.com
They are the manufacturers of Alumalite & the Omega boards.
(I thought they were merchants here but I guess not)
Posted by Robin (Member # 1710) on :
I assumed when I read the can of the hardner (which is the first time I've ever used it) that it could be mixed with any alkloyed enamel. And I found a qt. of 1-shot maroon bulletin here so I mixed it with the ronan carmine bulletin...then I mixed 1 pint. with 1/2 oz. hardner. Tom at 1-shot told me 1 oz. to 1 pt. max. AND last year I ask about the lettering enam. vs. bulletin for durability and never got a real answer. For years though, if it was a quality job I just assumed so and used it. I'm hoping not to double coat this simply because it's an "I want cheep" customer....which is why I really wanted to just glue burgandy alum. to wood. There's nothing like alumilite for a quickie road side sign. As for mixing SF clear....here's a DON'T. I always assume....so I assumed if you mix 50/50 latex clear and paint for a faux glaze you could mix SF 50/50 with 1-shot....doesn't dry. Anyway backgrounded at 2 today & have a fan on. Hope it's dry by morning & if it has to be double coated, I'll scuff & re-coat. Thanks again & I will be questioning Kevin at 1-shot too!
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Robin...sorry about the miscue. I know two guys named Robin and never even stopped to think about which side of the gene pool you were on. Please forgive my lack of intuition...(a picture would cure all that)
I sure hope your one coat does it...I think you'll be more than a little disapointed if you scuff that new paint to second coat it.
Posted by Nevman (Member # 332) on :
A little note from the sidelines...
I painted this wall (pourous concrete form, primed twice with acrylic cement sealer) about 2 months ago. It was a first test for 9 other pieces like it. I went back last week and the maroon (Ronan Bulletin) was already showing faded spots. Only a pro would recognize the descrepancies, but the paint is going downhill way too quickly.
Granted, I am in Florida and there is a lot of direct sunlight on this wall, but I know that I will be double coatng the rest of the pieces to ensure coverage.
I do like Monte's idea about mixing a maroon rather than using it out of the can.
Let us know how your project works out.
Posted by Robin (Member # 1710) on :
We'll it's very dry to the touch, not hard yet & very acceptible if I go one coat....However, I'd feel better with 2, maybe I'll do the flip sided today, flip again & do the 2nd coat tomorrow. I e-mailed 1-shot.....since I only used 5% harder...Like Jack said BUT now I'm not really wanting to SCUFF it! I've double coated lots the next day but never with this hardner...
